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Agnar the Howler
23-08-2010, 23:33
Since I was only in single figures i've been amazed by medieval stuff; the swords, the armour, the artillery, but most of all, the bows. If I could afford it and had somewhere to practice, i'd be doing archery already. On Age of Empires 2 I used to create maps with entire armies of longbowmen vs armies of other longbowmen or melee units because it was fun watching hundreds of arrows impale a single longswordsman.

Now i've got a bit of a job and should be getting paid soon, i've decided that picking up Wodd Elves as a very side project (like the Eldar I picked up years ago and never expanded upon) might be quite fun, but there's a catch: I'd prefer it without any melee.

Now, reading through a few threads has yielded advice in the form of 'Treekin, Dyrads and Treemen are really quite good', which worries me. Sure, i have no problem losing, but if i'm going to be killing 2 guys before being tabled in combat every game, i'd prefer not to start that army.

So, the question, is it at all possible to have a Wood Elves army (around 2k or less, probably 1k if it's a side project) made up entirely of stick-flingers? That means Glade Guard as my core, Warhawk riders as my special, and Waywatchers as my rares, with my heroes and lords being mainly ranged.

Will I stand any sort of chance against any army if I go this route? Or will I be taking these guys purely because I want to have a solely ranged army with no dreams of being even slightly competative?

TheKingInYellow
23-08-2010, 23:48
Is it possible? Sure, but you won't win many games.

I also started WE as a side project and if you can focus fire you can devastate units but melée units close faster with longer average charges, and even at short range, S4 just isn't enough sometimes.

Woodies desperately need a new book. Considering that they are supposed to be masters of the bow, they can't hit as hard as crossbows or guns or fire as fast as DEs. Woodies without forest spirits just don't really work right now.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
24-08-2010, 01:29
At 1000 points it might work. Your opponent is unlikely to have a T6 monsters or more than one unit of heavy cavalry or T4 infantry. If you drop down some obsticales (like walls: hard cover and -1 to hit on the charge) you migh be able to field enough archers to force your opponent down.

The strategy is likely to fail against any armies fielding knights with a +1 armour or warmachine gunlines.

russellmoo
24-08-2010, 02:28
If you compromise a little and bring one or two treemen, you could at the very least stay on the table for the majority of your games, even at 2500, but without bringing something to slow up your opponents, it's going to be hard to avoid being massacred.

Agnar the Howler
24-08-2010, 17:18
If you compromise a little and bring one or two treemen, you could at the very least stay on the table for the majority of your games, even at 2500, but without bringing something to slow up your opponents, it's going to be hard to avoid being massacred.

2k Would probably be the highest points level i'd consider using them at (1k-1.5k is the most likely though), so preparing for 2.5k isn't necessary, but if the only way I could even stay alive is by dumping some melee on the table then i'd have to re-think my concept.


At 1000 points it might work. Your opponent is unlikely to have a T6 monsters or more than one unit of heavy cavalry or T4 infantry. If you drop down some obsticales (like walls: hard cover and -1 to hit on the charge) you migh be able to field enough archers to force your opponent down.

The strategy is likely to fail against any armies fielding knights with a +1 armour or warmachine gunlines.

The warmachines and knight armies are why I asked the question, with gunline armies being more prevelant in this edition I could find myself facing an all WM gunline every game and losing before i'd even started to deploy.


Is it possible? Sure, but you won't win many games.

I also started WE as a side project and if you can focus fire you can devastate units but melée units close faster with longer average charges, and even at short range, S4 just isn't enough sometimes.

Woodies desperately need a new book. Considering that they are supposed to be masters of the bow, they can't hit as hard as crossbows or guns or fire as fast as DEs. Woodies without forest spirits just don't really work right now.

So right now, general opinion is that I can't even be competative without dropping some forest spirits on the table? Right, that means a bit of a re-think stucture wise; I still want a stick-flinger based army but there'd need to ulitmately be compromise; is there any way to stay relatively archer heavy and still be significantly melee heavy?

Runt Nosher
24-08-2010, 18:32
It is a wildly unoriginal concept and I am going out on a limb mentioning it simply for your specific case but I think that maybe it is possible if you max out on magic and take a few scout big scout units. You can deploy anywhere within 12" of the enemy, I think even in plain sight no? I am in Italy a few hundred miles from my BRB so I could be way off base but a few big units that can be stubborn in your free forests combined with a good strong magic phase that can be used to give them regeneration, toughness 7 and bring them back to life I think is fairly viable. I would say that the only reason GW is really leaning in the way of Woodies not working without any Forest Spirits at all is because in their fluff it specifically states that both races would have been doomed had they not joined forces to expel the invaders.

On top of the magic another strong section could be just a stress on cheap Alter Nobles as your main H-t-H support. 16 or 24 Archers with a musician, standard in some cases just for that one scenario and it's break-points, can be a pretty hard pill for many horde units to charge into. If they really are horde units at ten wide, and not other elves (very specifically High Elves...) then you can potentially shoot 24 S4 shots and strike first with 24 attacks which isn't anything to shake a stick at IMHO. Once again it isn't completely combat savvy and you would rarely achieve Steadfast but I think most Wood Elf lists will have that latter problem regardless of the build. A few decent sized units supporting eachother and suddenly you can negate ranks and maybe win a war of attrition, it's just against real hordes that are 200+ strong that you would have to do a lot of fleeing against to ensure the time you would need to really peel back a few ranks before you decided to engage.

So I suppose I am proposing a cheap Lvl 4 Life mage with an Alter Bow of Loren Highborn, maybe a Lvl 2 Life/Beasts mage just for channeling and incase you fail a spell with the original big guy, fill out the rest of the points with just plain jane Alter Nobles, Hail of Doom/Helm of the Hunt, Great Weapon or +2 Strength magic swords if you don't want to gamble much, I know you can't fit too many with a good set of gear but send enough of them in against one target and you will cause pain (any alter build I think is exceptionally useful against Cavalry that you can get two or three into the flank against). Basically they could be used like the old clan Eshin Assassin triads and just gang beat units that are front facing your Archers hoping for easy combats. Glade Riders work wonders in at least stalling the advance and the rest could, IMO, be just a combo of Scouts, Archers and maybe even Waywatchers if you are willing. Like many people here have said you may have to eat your hat for a while in order to get the hang of things but if you pull out two-to-four scouting units, two or three vanguard fast cav supported by alter nobles/dakka highborn and a life mage then fill the rest with archers you would have a chance against many people who simply would never have seen that build. I think you could seriously put the hurt on T3 mediocre save armies, it would be things like dwarfs, WoC and Lizardmen that you would really need practice against.

Zaszz
24-08-2010, 19:07
I think shooting heavy with spirits is the probably the most reliable way to win a game with WE but an all shooting list could still win. While the enemy may be faster now, you can still flee, and stand and shoot as reactions to charges. If you focus fire enough, and run your enemies around silly with Glade Riders and War Hawks you might buy enough time for your focus fire to tear a hole in their line, then play avoidance for a while. Scouts would be important here as well. Along with a life mage to drop some nukes on the enemy as well as possibly allowing a 20 strong unit of GG to win a combat.

Don't forget your Hail of Doom, and a character set up for Arcane Bodkins, Bow of Loren action.

Trains_Get_Robbed
24-08-2010, 19:18
Hail of Doom Arrow and Machine Gun Tommy could kill roughly a unit of 3+ AS troops by himself, however after that one would need another sort of support unit with S5 or up to held combat. Something like:

Lord: Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, Alter Kinred, HotH, SoM/SoAnti-Heros (would have to rake out HotH, shield, L.A.

2 lvls with Lore of Life, Divnation Orb on one and Channeling Rod and HoD on other.

2-3 units of roughly 12-26 Glade Guard one bigger unit with F.C though.

3 Treekin

and lastly a small unit of Waywatchers or Warhawks or whatever else.

Follow tactics that Runt stated above and one could manage .500 record at 1,500 against non-chessed lists.

goodz
24-08-2010, 21:46
1000 Points all shooting - Anymore then this and your in trouble, also treemen can shoot 6 inchs! :P

Highborn - Bow of loren, Arcane Bodkins, Alter Kindred, light armour, enchanted shield - 251 points. (your all shooting they can let the 1 point slide!)

20 - Glade gaurd - 216
Standard, Musician

10 - Glade gaurd - 138
Standard, Musician

10 - Glade gaurd - 138
Standard, Musician

10 - Glade gaurd - 138
Standard, Musician

3 - War Hawk Riders - 120

Your alter highborn only can afford a 4+ armour save at 1k points, perhaps keep him in a forest so they get -2 to shoot at him. Waywatchers are pretty bad right now, and your alter can kill things with heavy armour since he ignores armour saves, so i put warhawks in instead! (Same price as 5 waywatchers). I figured perhaps your unit of 16 glade gaurd could reform to have 2 ranks and possibly beat something really lame in combat. (my unit of 20 killed 15 blood letters the other day! although stand and shoot killed 6 i think)

If you jump up to 1500 i would use:

Highborn - Bow of loren, Arcane Bodkins, Alter Kindred, light armour, shield, Glamourweave- 276 points.

Spellsinger - Dispel scroll, level 2 - 150

20 - Glade gaurd - 216
Standard, Musician

10 - Glade gaurd - 138
Standard, Musician

10 - Glade gaurd - 138
Standard, Musician

10 - Glade gaurd - 138
Standard, Musician

3 - War Hawk Riders - 120

Treeman - 285

Might turn one unit of glade gaurd into 8 scounts and hide the wizard in there.

I have lost most games using very similar lists to this, the treeman helps a ton though. I also find him to be a very enjoyable model to use, because he can shoot, cast magic, and smashes most things he sees. Hopefully your alter hero can kill any warmchines that threaten him too much! I actually finally won a game using virtually this list but instead of warhawk riders i had a great eagle and some scouts!

cyberspite
25-08-2010, 00:53
@ Goodz, unfortunately your 1k list is illegal as an alter cannot be the general.

It really depends what army you face, anything with high toughness / good armour (bretts, dwarfs, WoC) you will really struggle against. Anything else will just be less of a struggle ;)

I also think you will have to play some sort of avoidance tactic just to buy some time to whittle away their numbers. This means taking fast things like glade riders, warhawks, maybe a character on an eagle, a waywatcher noble with the teleporting stone thingy could also work.

The problem then though is you have less points for your glade guard blocks, I guess you would have to find the right balance between movement and firepower.

Oh, and don't expect to be able to completely destroy an enemy army with archers alone, at some point you will need something that can get their hands dirty.

Agnar the Howler
28-08-2010, 22:38
@Goodz: Well, I got my army book yesterday and according to my book your points are a bit skewed:

On the 1k list the Highborn should be 2 points more expensive, and on both the 20 glade guard should be 258pts, not 216.

In other news, I have a thread up (that isn't getting much attention) that contains an army list, and i'll be putting up a few more interfrastically: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273611