PDA

View Full Version : Question brought up from reading the first Heratic



wamphyri101
24-08-2010, 12:54
I am currently Reading it at the moment (On chapter 11) and it is brilliant. I don’t play 40k but love the Horus books (Bar maybe battle for the abyss).

Fav quote from 'the first heretic' so far-

"Is it not blasphemy? Defying the will of the covenant?"

"No, it was a tactical retreat in the overwhelming face of boredom"


Logar is Portrayed really well as a character in this and you do feel sorry for him. It actually makes you think that the Emperor is an ****.

One bit did stand out though. There is a scene with Magnus and Logar when he is breaking down to him:

Magnus mid sentence:

“Russ knows that, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.”
‘Two already lost.’ Logar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they-‘
‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’


Now I know that there are two missing legions that were removed and classed as classified but have who or why ever been covered?

S_A_T_S
24-08-2010, 14:08
It's a mystery and it's there to make to background more exciting and interesting. The whole point of the HH books is to add detail to the plot that ppl have been discussing for 20 years. They can't give it all away, so they tease us with stuff like that quote. Gets ppl talking, like we're doing right now...

I am intrigued that they didn't just die/mutate when the Primarchs were all being incubated. I had no idea the two missing Primarchs had actually survived to meet their brethren. That means there were actually two entire legions, not just the Primarchs themselves, that have been lost AFTER finding their progenitor. Also, both Primarchs lost at the same time, same day? What the hell happened to destroy both of them, and why did the others take an oath never to speak about it? Must read First Heretic...

Dead.Blue.Clown
24-08-2010, 15:11
...you have it now?

By the gods.

wamphyri101
24-08-2010, 15:40
There is more spoken in the conversation but didnt want to give too much away as it is a great read.

And yes I have it now Deep.Blue.Clown.

Do reviews for a company and get stuff early

Dead.Blue.Clown
24-08-2010, 15:47
There is more spoken in the conversation but didnt want to give too much away as it is a great read.

And yes I have it now Deep.Blue.Clown.

Do reviews for a company and get stuff early

Ah, killer. I was ultra-curious. Thanks, dude.

sycopat
24-08-2010, 17:12
I thought it wasn't out until november? Because having it in August is super early for a review copy surely?

Sounds good, but I already want that book to a ridiculous degree, so I'm now just getting impatient. Extra impatience is annoying me at the minute because I just lost my copy of mechanicum, which I was enjoying, and will now have to fork out for another copy.

What happened to the two expunged primarchs has never been covered. This excerpt only tells us that one day the primarchs swore an oath not to talk about what happened and that they definitely were found, which I believe was also mentioned in an earlier Heresy novel. (One could infer from Lorgar's interrupted statement that the two of them were expunged for the same/similar reasons, but he could just as easily be talking how they looked or smelled or sounded.)

What's most interesting is that even after the heresy none of the Primarchs seem to have told anyone else the truth about what happened.



I was ultra-curious.

You and every other space marine who's not an ultramarine. Apparently.

BobtheInquisitor
24-08-2010, 17:57
There is more spoken in the conversation but didnt want to give too much away as it is a great read.

And yes I have it now Deep.Blue.Clown.

Do reviews for a company and get stuff early

Are you Detra Fitch?

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 19:30
I am currently Reading it at the moment (On chapter 11) and it is brilliant. I don’t play 40k but love the Horus books (Bar maybe battle for the abyss).

Fav quote from 'the first heretic' so far-

"Is it not blasphemy? Defying the will of the covenant?"

"No, it was a tactical retreat in the overwhelming face of boredom"


Logar is Portrayed really well as a character in this and you do feel sorry for him. It actually makes you think that the Emperor is an ****.

One bit did stand out though. There is a scene with Magnus and Logar when he is breaking down to him:

Magnus mid sentence:

“Russ knows that, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.”
‘Two already lost.’ Logar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they-‘
‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’


Now I know that there are two missing legions that were removed and classed as classified but have who or why ever been covered?

Spoilers please! I am not the type to have a book/movie ruined for me by spoilers. Heap them on and use spoiler tags!

the.alleycat.uk
24-08-2010, 19:53
“Russ knows that, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.”
‘Two already lost.’ Logar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they-‘
‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’




As far as I'm aware, this is the most specific and explicit reference to the two Primarchs ever.

And I'm pretty sure ADB has said before that there is no specific story for them and it's just a tease...

So, has someone decided enough on them for this to be said?

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 20:12
As far as I'm aware, this is the most specific and explicit reference to the two Primarchs ever.

And I'm pretty sure ADB has said before that there is no specific story for them and it's just a tease...

So, has someone decided enough on them for this to be said?

I've read internet posts from at least two BL authors claiming that the missing Legions will never be explored in depth, as they are meant to be one of those ambiguous areas for players and fans to use their own imaginations on.

wamphyri101
25-08-2010, 09:50
I will put up a teaser bit if you fancy (hidden so those not wanting spoilers) as long as it is ok by forum rules

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 17:46
As long as you use the spoiler tags, it should be fine.

wamphyri101
26-08-2010, 12:34
Ok, one of my recent enjoyed moments

Xaphen moved away from the others, coming to the pod etched with XI. Rather than peer into its depths, he looked over his shoulder to Argel Tal.
"The eleventh primarch sleeps within this pod - still innocent, still pure. I ache to end this now,' he confessed.
Malnor chuckled from behind the chaplin. 'It would save us alot of effort, wouldn't it?' 'And it would spare Aurelian from heartbreak.' Xephen traced his fingertips over the desinating numeral. 'I remember the devastation that wracked him after losing his second and eleventh brothers.'
Argel Tal still hadn't left Guilliman's pod. 'We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.'
'Are some chances not worth taking?' asked the chaplin.
'Some are. This one is not.'
'But the eleventh legion-'
'Is expunged from imperial record for good reason. As is the secondn. I'm not saying I don't feel temptation creepping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we'd unwrite a shameful future.'
Dagotal cleared his throat. @And deny the Ultramaries a signnificant boost in recruitment numbers.'
Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weight the merit of such a thing.
'What?' Dagotal asked the others. 'You were thinking it too. It's no secret.'
'Those are just rumours,' Torgal gruted. The assault sergeant didn't sound particularly certain.
'Perhaps, perhaps not. The thirteenth definitel swelled to eclipse all the other legions around the time the second and Eleventh were "forgotten" by imperial archives.

Deus Mechanicus
27-08-2010, 14:33
That is so hot.

Scribe of Khorne
27-08-2010, 15:45
Ah the joy of text that just generates more questions then answers. :p

wamphyri101
27-08-2010, 16:15
The bit after is alot better :)

Deus Mechanicus
27-08-2010, 22:01
The bit after is alot better :)

Spoil us all the way to spoiler heaven.

Son of Sanguinius
28-08-2010, 02:49
Spoil us all the way to spoiler heaven.

Yeah, but don't post too much more direct text. No need to push the envelope or test the wrath of the mods.

Col. Tartleton
30-08-2010, 13:46
Guilleman Did it!

You heard it here first.

Kiro
01-09-2010, 04:31
More please! I find the reference to Magnus curious, as I was just skimming through A Thousand Sons again and noticed Ahriman commenting on a subtle tension between Magnus and Lorgar after the latter stops Russ and Magnus from fighting. The plot thickens!

Nazguire
02-09-2010, 01:41
I do like the idea that the Ultramarines ranks were swollen by some certain newly Primarch-less recruits. Which makes a bit of sense, considering that even with the population of Ultramar to draw from, they were still meant to be at least double the size of the next largest legion (they were cited to be 250,000 strong, according to Horus Heresy: Collected Visions). With the tough standards to even be accepted into training as an Astartes, let alone graduating, even Ultramar didn't fully make sense when you thought about it.

Col. Tartleton
03-09-2010, 03:31
All I can say is I'm theorizing that some of the "Ultramarine Successors" Chapters which make up 2/3s of all Space Marines are not of that geneseed... Which means keeping the two legions secret makes sense again! Now its not Heresy to have 2nd/11th Legion Marines as long as they think they're 13ers.

Mortifactors suddenly make sense.

RobC
03-09-2010, 09:25
Don't be too surprised when an alternate, conflicting theory about the Lost Legions appears in a future book. BL like to provide questions, not answers ;)

Lastie
03-09-2010, 19:39
The Horus Heresy series so far has been like a quizz show where every answer is immediately accompanied by three more questions. One day 40K will implode upon itself by the sheer fictional narrativious-gravitational mass of so many unanswered questions to form some sort of questioning black hole. Which would be awesome.

Santa Clauz
09-09-2010, 13:16
That already happened, you should know Lastie, you wrote it, and it was awesome. Though the ending kinda sucked, but it was funny so it was ok.

boogle
22-09-2010, 13:07
That spoiler tag is VERY interesting.

looks like another book full of questions, polts, sub plots and counter plots, I'm really looking forward to reading it.

Eulenspiegel
20-10-2010, 06:40
One month isn´t threadomancy, is it? :cool:


I just finished the book in one day. I was reading at work when noone was looking, I continued reading immediately when I got home. I couldn´t put the book down.

As much as I didn´t want to cheer the Thriving Blue Clown any further (I fear his head has already swollen to unhealty size), but THE FIRST HERETIC is a damnn masterpiece.

That book is easily as good as Soul Hunter, and for the Heresy context, for the revelations about the primarch´s creation, for making me interested in Lorgar (easily my least favourite Primarch until now), for the tidbits about the lost Legions, for the cameo of Cadia, it is better than Soul Hunter.

One of the best parts is the vision / time travel the Word Bearers experience in the Eye.
Reading about the (traitor?) Primarchs
crashing on their respective homeworlds ... awesome.
Alas, my knowledge on 40K background isn´t THAT good, I couldn´t quite recognize them all. Did anyone? (PS: it´s on page 307 onward)

reds8n
20-10-2010, 09:38
To quote the author of said, fine, tome


The Lion - in the forests of Caliban; Fulgrim on the plains of Chemos; Perturabo, among the mountain fortresses of Olympia; Curze, during the eternal night of Nostramo (and the only primarch-child to instinctively reach for a weapon when he saw civilisation); Angron, his face awash in blood and screaming in pain even as an infant; Mortarion, in the pollution-thick wilds of Barbarus; Magnus the Red, in Tizca; Horus, on the worthless world of Cthonia; Lorgar landing by the river near the City of Grey Flowers on Colchis (a vague Moses analogy...); and Alpharius, in some nebulous unseeable mystery place.

Basically, the Traitor Primarchs - in Legion order - and the Lion as well, perhaps reflecting the lore that he may or may not have been wavering in his loyalties, at least in the eyes of the Chaos Gods.

Eulenspiegel
20-10-2010, 09:56
Cheers! Fulgrim, Perturabo and Horus had me guessing.

sycopat
20-10-2010, 11:03
I also am just after finishing and was wondering about that, so thanks Red Satan for the quote!

I will admit I didn't particularly like Lorgar though. I think he was extremely well written, but I can see why he was considered a weakling by his brothers.

reds8n
20-10-2010, 11:26
You're both more than welcome chaps ! :)

FlashGordon
20-10-2010, 15:35
I hope BL does not expand to much on this time-travel "trip" that seems to be more frequent than ever(thank you for a bad ending to Ravenor Dan). :/

No, keep time-travel as unique as it was in the original Inquisitor books.

Eulenspiegel
20-10-2010, 15:49
We certainly don´t want to see 40k going the way of Star Trek.

In the HH books it fits, because you don´t know if they really went or whether it was merely a vision (and if it was a correct one at that). If they really went back, it´s little in the way of proper time-travel as the characters are just spectators.

I don´t know about the Ravenor example you mentioned, though.

lotrchampion
20-10-2010, 22:38
All I can say is I'm theorizing that some of the "Ultramarine Successors" Chapters which make up 2/3s of all Space Marines are not of that geneseed... Which means keeping the two legions secret makes sense again! Now its not Heresy to have 2nd/11th Legion Marines as long as they think they're 13ers.

Mortifactors suddenly make sense.

OMG!!! 2 + 11 = 13th...ULTRAMARINES! THE CONSPIRACY IS UNVEILED!!!

Dun dun dun...

Actually probably the first time I've genuinely found something about Ultramarines and their successors even approaching the "grim darkness" that I like in my 41st Millennium.

Anyway, I've nearly finished The First Heretic, just up to the last few pages tonight then I'm done. Great book so far, not quite my favourite, but the characters are portrayed very well in it indeed. Its also nice to see the story from the point of view of a bit of a darker character (won't say more...). Suffice to say, I look forward to seeing what Mr Dembski-bowden does with any future HH stuff he gets his hands on. I know he's spoken briefly on his hope to do a Night Lords one, and I really hope he gets to do it.

FabricatorGeneralMike
21-10-2010, 01:21
OMG!!! 2 + 11 = 13th...ULTRAMARINES! THE CONSPIRACY IS UNVEILED!!!

Dun dun dun...

Actually probably the first time I've genuinely found something about Ultramarines and their successors even approaching the "grim darkness" that I like in my 41st Millennium.

Anyway, I've nearly finished The First Heretic, just up to the last few pages tonight then I'm done. Great book so far, not quite my favourite, but the characters are portrayed very well in it indeed. Its also nice to see the story from the point of view of a bit of a darker character (won't say more...). Suffice to say, I look forward to seeing what Mr Dembski-bowden does with any future HH stuff he gets his hands on. I know he's spoken briefly on his hope to do a Night Lords one, and I really hope he gets to do it.


Hell ya, I would love to see his potrayal of the VIII Legion during the Great Crusade. With the great work is did on Soul Hunter, the Core and the good things I have heard about the audio books, I honestly think that he could do some justice to the seige of Terra. I would also love to see them potrayed as the 'evil' astartes even tho they where just follow the Emperor's orders. There is just so much potential there.

COBRA!!!!!!!!!!

thewickedworm
26-10-2010, 05:36
Wow. Just. . . wow. I just finished reading the book and it was pure win.

I tend to judge a book by the number of smiles it puts on my face while reading it and I pretty much smiled all the way through The First Heritic.

Not only did I absolutely lap up the ideas already discussed, but the description of the Dropsite Massacre was the best yet. Corax's fight with Lorgar was absolutely breathtaking. Corax = awesome and was described perfectly, "This was wrath, in physical form." Heh. In fact, while reading the description of the battle, all I could think of was GW better start making primarch models, because I want one of Corax (and I don't even own one Raven Guard model)! And even though Curze is seen briefly, it was enough to get a sense of the hatred he had in him for everything and everyone. His words to Lorgar on the battlefield was priceless. There really is no doubt that ADB is the master of all things Night Lords. I would have loved to have read a true fight between Curze and Corax. The dialogue crackled. I loved the response the Iron Warriors gave to Kor Phaeron as he protested their indiscriminate distruction, "We are all bleeding today. . . Have faith, Word Bearer." Made me LOL. Even then, the traitor legions really didn't like each other all that much and this book really emphasized it.

Great read!

thewickedworm
26-10-2010, 05:39
BTW, anyone ever guess what Cryene was going to say? "please remember th"?

Space Monkey
26-10-2010, 11:29
Please remember th....

...at the future is not set. there is no fate but what we make for ourselves... yadda yadda

Dead.Blue.Clown
26-10-2010, 13:25
Please remember th....

...at the future is not set. there is no fate but what we make for ourselves... yadda yadda

Maximum wrongness.

Space Monkey
26-10-2010, 14:45
hahaha! My work here is done.

I think she was heading towards 'faith is truth' or something along those lines.

Ka Faraq Gatri
27-10-2010, 19:42
Please remember th...


...e oven's still on.

thewickedworm
27-10-2010, 20:43
"Please remember th...

...e Titans! Wasn't that a great movie? I luvs me some Denzel. He is so dreamy and such a good actor. Tee-hee."

*dies*

FlashGordon
28-10-2010, 09:30
"Please remember th...

...e Titans! Wasn't that a great movie? I luvs me some Denzel. He is so dreamy and such a good actor. Tee-hee."

*dies*

Quoted for truth! ;)

bound for glory
28-10-2010, 15:00
i got the book on the 27th. just plain awsome!

Nazguire
04-11-2010, 10:56
Excellent book. One of the best HH novels by far. Lorgar was great, so much more different an approach to his character than I originally envisioned. I pictured a zealot originally. I didn't with him. I pictured a little boy who craves love and attention. And went to the first thing that would offer it.

magath
06-11-2010, 14:20
I have a question

At the end, why do they assault Calth? Is it part of some bigger, ordained plan as it seems to fit with Olympia getting bitchslapped by the iron warriors

N0-1_H3r3
06-11-2010, 16:11
I have a question

At the end, why do they assault Calth? Is it part of some bigger, ordained plan as it seems to fit with Olympia getting bitchslapped by the iron warriors
As far as I'm aware, the assault on Calth was purely a distraction - Horus waited to reveal his betrayal until the Ultramarines were as far away from the rest of the Imperium as possible, and then sent a portion of the Word Bearers to Ultramar (specifically to Calth) in order to keep the Ultramarines away from the rest of the war... at no point did Horus want the largest legion interfering with his campaign.

narrativium
06-11-2010, 16:22
N0-1_H3r3: The end of False Gods agrees with you.

Lupe
06-11-2010, 18:09
N0-1_H3r3 is right. But the spoiler tags aren't really warranted. The events were already public knowledge before the book.

Horus had 9 legions under his command, but they were out in the open, and were fairly successfully held at by three heavily entrenched Astartes legions and the Custodes. (I'm excluding non-Astartes forces of the Imperial Army and Mechanicum, not since they didn't matter, but since we have no real information on who joined who, and what the final force ratio was).

Now, the loyalists were slowly being pushed back, but even a single other legion would have evened the odds.

If another loyalist legion would have already been stationed on Terra, they'd have fought each other to a stalemate. If, instead, that same legion was away and able to deploy its fleet behind the traitor's blockade, a long stalemate would have been the least of Horus' concerns.

If, speculating further, that legion happened to be the Ultramarines - who outnumbered pretty much everyone else, at least two to one - then Horus would be diving head first into an empty swimming pool.

And since annihilating the Ultramarines' threat completely requires time and blood, and losing the element of surprise (this is pre-Istvaan V, remember), the effective (and, I have to say, elegant) solution is to cripple them with a preemptive strike using weapons of mass destruction. And then,give them enough reasons not to back away from that particular losing battle. Hence the choice of Calth, in the Ultramar system as a target.

And then, it becomes a matter of finding volunteers for a small strike force to carry out that plan. Enter the Word Bearers, who already hate the Ultramarines with a burning passion, and, to top it all off, are fanatics who don't care that this might well be a suicide mission.

taylor637
23-03-2013, 02:17
I recently read the first heratic. I'm not seeing why the WB's turned, the warp spawn thing showed them how they would change. It makes no since that they would transform them selves listening to warp creature who is glorifying death and destruction. Even Horus turn was weak

shadowhawk2008
23-03-2013, 06:58
Lorgar glorifies the Emperor as a God. The Imperial Truth says that there are no gods. To discipline Lorgar, the Emperor has the Ultramarines destroy one of the greatest cities the Word Bearers built in dedication to the Emperor. The Emperor humiliates Lorgar in front of his entire legion, Guilliman, Captain Aethon of the Ultramarines and Malcador. Lorgar is a person who wants to believe in higher powers. He has had visions of a golden God since he was a kid, and this is his burning desire. And along come the events on Cadia and Lorgar's trip into the Eye of Terror. He finally sees that there ARE gods out there, powerful ones who welcome worship. Lorgar's need is fulfiled and since the Emperor caused him so many grievances, he goes traitor and begins turning the other legions to his cause. Of course, he is also the prophet of these gods and he truly believes that their worship is the best thing that can ever happen to humanity and that the Emperor is a lying SOB who doesn't care about anyone else.

taylor637
23-03-2013, 14:46
Right I know what your saying but lorgar is smart enough to be like this isn't right, this is bad, this will destroy my legion don't you think. I'm just saying its a little thin ya know.

taylor637
23-03-2013, 14:55
Even when Horus turned it was weak. I like the books but in these two instances they should of made it better. Ya see logar is smart enough to destinguish right and wrong. The emperor had a reason to keep that from them just like he had a reason to keep his work in the web way secret. He is the emperor. I agree he didn't have to destroy his city and humiliate his whole legion. If any thing he should of relieved him of command and made logar return to terra. This is the part I don't get to the emperor is the most powerful pysker who ever lived. He couldn't see that Magnus wouldn't stop or that lorgar wouldn't stop?

taylor637
23-03-2013, 15:03
But I think my estimate of the size of the legions was right and were seeing it in the books now, in this book they basicly say that each expidiotionary fleet has a Astartes chapter as the main element. So then there are 4300 chapters on the crusade and that makes more since than a few expeditions with them. They also say this in that dark angels book with astellan chapter master of the dark angels, remember the lion tailed his expidtion with a caliban expidition