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RunepriestRidcully
24-08-2010, 16:05
What do you think about the GW policy that bans people from playing any of the specialist games, GW products, in GW stores:wtf:?
I think it is silly, would it hurt that much to let people play specialist games in store? It is not like you are using other companies models.

Void Reaper
24-08-2010, 16:16
From a knee-jerk, personal reaction, I'd really hate this policy. For what it's worth, BFG is my favorite Games Workshop game (I love the models and the game, though my group has tweaked the rules for fighters and bombers a bit). However, I understand that GW's stores are meant to sell GW's stuff, and if they don't carry the specialist stuff in the store, and potential new customers come in, see the cool space ships or what have you and then can't buy it, GW has possibly lost a customer.

That being said, I don't have any sympathy for a GW store that loses old and dependable customers because it's pi$$ed them off by not allowing them to play their GW game of choice. :) Perhaps that could be the only way GW would learn to not abuse their established customer base.

logan054
24-08-2010, 16:47
Sorry? when did this happen? I really can't imagine if you phones up the head office they would back up and staff member who claimed this was a GW policy.


However, I understand that GW's stores are meant to sell GW's stuff, and if they don't carry the specialist stuff in the store, and potential new customers come in, see the cool space ships or what have you and then can't buy it, GW has possibly lost a customer. .

Or they take them over to the computer and order the models from that and get them delivered to the store! I have had this done to me many times when I have wanted models, don't have the masters of the chapter in blister packs, here you go buy it here and get it delivered here sir kinda thing.

Chaos and Evil
24-08-2010, 17:09
From a pure business POV, this policy makes complete sense.

Any activity in a GW store has to be able to function as passive advertising for GW.

So if you're playing a game in a GW store, you're not just chucking dice with a mate, you're advertising the GW hobby (tm).

Now, GW makes the most money when they sell large armies of plastic models to their customers.

To play the 28mm and 54mm Specialist Games, you need small bands or teams made out of metal models.

To play BFG you need a moderate number of mostly metal models.

To play Epic you need a large number of mostly metal models.

To play Warmaster you need a large number of exclusively metal models.

To play the Battle of Five Armies you need exactly what comes in the boxed set, you do not need to expand upon your initial force.

=====

So every single one of the SG's is badly placed to crank out the same kind of profit ratio that a Core Game can.

Only the Battle of Five Armies can match a core game for number of plastic models in a set, but of course that's a one-off purchase so it can't match a core game for size of purchase.

==============

So, taking the above into account, and knowing that all in-store activities have to advertise products that they want to sell, most GW's ban Specialist Games in their stores.

It sucks, but it's logical.

spetswalshe
24-08-2010, 17:45
Specialist Games aren't the cash-cows of GW's stable, but if you've got the space I see absolutely no reason why a less model-intensive game shouldn't be allowed to go on. It isn't like Games Workshop makes less money when a gamer gets into Mordheim as well as Fantasy, for example (unless he gives up massive peasant scrums entirely in favour of the gentlemanly art of skirmish streetfighting - but I imagine the new army box/edition/boxed set will keep that from happening), and it provides variety that can keep a gamer interested or pull him back in when he's on his way out. SGs tend to be great for the other sides of the hobby, too - often encouraging scenery construction or model conversion.

However, if it's a choice between two hoary veterans slugging it out in the Underhive or Chad and Tyler shovelling reams of grey plastic across a no-room-for-terrain battlefield we all know how it's going to turn out.

BobtheInquisitor
24-08-2010, 19:44
What do you think about the GW policy that bans people from playing any of the specialist games, GW products, in GW stores:wtf:?
I think it is silly, would it hurt that much to let people play specialist games in store? It is not like you are using other companies models.

Hmmm... My local Battle Bunker has BFG and Blood Bowl games very week. I'm not sure this policy you mention exists. Maybe your store has a ****** for a manager?

scarletsquig
24-08-2010, 19:51
Stealth sales are the annoying thing with specialist games.

If someone buys a bunch of empire militia, night runners and fortified manor/ arcane ruins kits for Mordheim, GW is only going to see those sales as "fantasy sales", not Mordheim sales.

yabbadabba
24-08-2010, 19:59
Stealth sales are the annoying thing with specialist games.
If someone buys a bunch of empire militia, night runners and fortified manor/ arcane ruins kits for Mordheim, GW is only going to see those sales as "fantasy sales", not Mordheim sales. There is a way to guestimate this sort of sale.
@Ridcully - why not contact GW and get an answer and come back with a thread that has a purpose? Guessing why and debating the guesses is really a pointless exercise when you could write to Mark Wells or John Carter (Head of UK Retail I believe) and get a proper answer.

Spacebase
24-08-2010, 20:00
Hmmm... My local Battle Bunker has BFG and Blood Bowl games very week. I'm not sure this policy you mention exists. Maybe your store has a ****** for a manager?
Most of the larger stores don't mind, from what I've seen. The Chicago battle bunker had the policy of "if there's table space, go ahead" but if it was busy and someone needed a table, you were out of luck. They even hosted one of the largest blood bowl leagues in the US as well as a large specialist games group.

I haven't played there in a while, so I don't know if it has changed at all.

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 20:04
Thing is, such games are not verboten at Warhammer World. As I had a whole day of playing EA up there last tuesday.

We rang in advance to see if we were allowed to play it up there and were met with a reply of "Why wouldn't you be able to?"

Most intriguing.

WHW does not really sell SG stuff off the shelves like they used to (which was my initial logic as to why it's allowed there). It appears it may simply depend on the staff member. Who knows?

marv335
24-08-2010, 20:27
My local store (when I'm in the UK) and quite a few I've frequented around the country all have played specialist games openly in the shop.
I've seen no evidence of this policy.

RunepriestRidcully
24-08-2010, 20:35
I thought it was a general GW store thing, that sucks if it is just cheltenham that does not allow it, I was told I could not play BFG, and the staff member who told me also wants to play BFG, so I assume it is either from the manager or someone above the manger but not the rest of the country, does GW have county managers who could proberbly say this?

Venkh
24-08-2010, 20:37
Yeah, the statment from the OP seems to be incorrect.

This should be closed unless some evidence is forthcoming of this 'policy'

RunepriestRidcully
24-08-2010, 20:57
Sorry, could the mods close this thread please, I started it baised on the idea GW did not let people play SG in store, turns out is just my local store, sorry.

Venkh
24-08-2010, 21:27
You local store is being a bit unreasonable though.

You ought to be able to bring them round with a bit of cajoling

BigRob
24-08-2010, 21:56
This policy killed a game of Warhammer Quest that had been running on the Tuesday vets night at my local store for over 2 years. We had 10 players + a GM and brought alot of models to use for our monsters as well as all being vet gamers at the store and spending alot of time and money there. We played WFB, W40K, Necromunda, Mordhiem, Bloodbowl, Space Hulk and much much more but when one of the old staffers (and regular player) came back from his managers course he was a changed man (for changed read totally different, uptight, complaining, rude etc) and we were told to pack up and push off.

Verm1s
24-08-2010, 22:01
Sorry? when did this happen? I really can't imagine if you phones up the head office they would back up and staff member who claimed this was a GW policy.

It was, at least, in Northern Europe. I can particularly remember it because Northern Ireland was lumped into that category about the same time, years ago, and I was getting hepped up on Epic. I don't know the situation now, but I'd guess it's relented.


why not contact GW and get an answer and come back with a thread that has a purpose? Guessing why and debating the guesses is really a pointless exercise when you could write to Mark Wells or John Carter (Head of UK Retail I believe) and get a proper answer.


This should be closed unless some evidence is forthcoming of this 'policy'

Jawohl mein Kommandanten. :eyebrows: How about you two mall-cops don't screech at the guy to check his facts when you don't know jack yourselves? Looks like he might know a bit more than you.

yabbadabba
24-08-2010, 22:17
Jawohl mein Kommandanten. :eyebrows: How about you two mall-cops don't screech at the guy to check his facts when you don't know jack yourselves? Looks like he might know a bit more than you.How amusingly pathetic. Anecdotal evidence is worthy of nothing more than a casual grunt. An actual policy reply from GWHQ might actually help this person get his store to change their decision. So I don't see why your knickers are in a twist over something so simply common sense.

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 23:59
How amusingly pathetic. Anecdotal evidence is worthy of nothing more than a casual grunt. An actual policy reply from GWHQ might actually help this person get his store to change their decision. So I don't see why your knickers are in a twist over something so simply common sense.

:eyebrows:
In spite of the fact there is a major consistency in these "anecdotes", with no cross communication with all of the storytellers?

A quick search turns up these threads
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215686&highlight=specialist+game
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214050

So, yeah.

Chaos and Evil
25-08-2010, 00:20
I wrote a letter to Jervis questioning this policy at a local store about 5 years ago (Several of our group had just spent hundreds of pounds on Epic, only to have SG's banned 3 weeks later).

We did get a nice reply, if not a change in policy.

Venkh
25-08-2010, 00:32
So there is a policy in place now then.

I stand corrected.

My local store was running Blood Bowl a little while ago so I thought that the report had to be baseless.

Apologies to the OP if that is the case. I will vote in the poll!

logan054
25-08-2010, 03:15
It was, at least, in Northern Europe. I can particularly remember it because Northern Ireland was lumped into that category about the same time, years ago, and I was getting hepped up on Epic. I don't know the situation now, but I'd guess it's relented.

To be fair I don't think I even attempted to take something like blood bowl to GW to play (not that my local is ever open mind you lol) so I cant really comment, I know I used to be able to play it store many years, I haven't seen them played for years but I have always put this down to them be hidden on the website rather than being instore.

yabbadabba
25-08-2010, 07:20
So, yeah. Well yes - you may have noticed but these threads are never consistent are they. There is never a 100% agreement/disagreement. But please feel free to continue a discussion based on one side of the story and without any official communication. I am sure that will change the world.

Please also note the thread title mentions GWs "No specialist games in store" policy - and yet no effort to find out the official policy from the people who make/influence the retail policies.

Baggers
25-08-2010, 22:18
I will add that I spent most of this year playing not only Mordheim but Warhammer Historical as well in Warhammer World. Warhammer World I can say is GW's flagship store and not once were we asked not to play. We were actively encouraged by our shop staff.

Shamutanti
25-08-2010, 23:59
I will add that I spent most of this year playing not only Mordheim but Warhammer Historical as well in Warhammer World. Warhammer World I can say is GW's flagship store and not once were we asked not to play. We were actively encouraged by our shop staff.

You also see magic the gathering, dungeons and dragons and a variety of board games and other systems being placed in bugmans bar.

WHW is an entity upon its self and shouldn't be used as a representation of what is 'normally' accepted in a typical GW store.

Fredox
26-08-2010, 12:29
Over the past few years I've experienced this policy on a few occasions. One time the local manager decided to run a Mordheim campaign in conjunction with the release of some new stuff. This was in a bunker, didn't drastically affect the available playing area and lasted for two days at most. A few weeks later we were informed that the manager had had his wrists slapped by some higher ups for running the event and was told to stop playing SG in store. When a new store opened in my area the manager allowed a one off game of Bloodbowl that took up no more space than the pitch on a Thursday gaming night. The next week one of the younger guys asks if he can play a game and gets told he can't use the tables so cheekily asks about the floor and gets a tentative ok probably just for the cheek of asking. The following week SG can't be played in store again.

Personally I've got enough 40k and Wharhammer to see me through at least a decade. SG on the other hand would be a drip feed with continual small purchases. New league, new team, new campaign, new gang. Without a place to generate interest I don't see SG drawing enough of a following from the mainstream games to be profitable. Before anyone says play at home I don't think society will see that as acceptable now but that's a whole different thread and probably not even for this forum.

DapperAnarchist
26-08-2010, 12:45
I've heard of this sort of thing quite a lot, being primarily interested in Inquisitor. It isn't universal, but it is present, and perhaps even encouraged, and at least tolerated - which bothers me. There may be no "No Specialist Games" policy, but there is also no "Any GW game may be played on a GW Store table" policy.

I think its rather damaging to the Specialist Games. Not every town has a Battle Bunker, or a FLGS, or a games club. If you want to meet players, you meet them in GW. So, if you want to meet SG players, where do you go? And if there aren't any players...

yabbadabba
26-08-2010, 12:54
I think its rather damaging to the Specialist Games. Not every town has a Battle Bunker, or a FLGS, or a games club. If you want to meet players, you meet them in GW. So, if you want to meet SG players, where do you go? And if there aren't any players... Sorry but for me that doesn't work. If it requires a store to support, most wargames would never have got off the ground. Clubs and gaming groups are where these things should be kept alive. SGs don't make enough money for GW, and have only just cut the mustard on their release, so flogging a dead horse makes no sense.

Of course like anyone I'd like to see SGs being played in stores, but I also appreciate the commercial nature of these places.

Fredox
26-08-2010, 13:43
Yabba I can understand what your saying with SG needing to be commercially viable but I'm sure a middle ground could be found rather than banning them outright. The bunker store close to me could allow games in the bunker during off times for example. The local one man store has space that was accommodated with 2 painting stations until a fire audit when they were told the stools were to close to the fire exit. That area could have a Bloodbowl board for example. Where GW have the space they could allow games but this would need to be decided on a local level.

With regards to clubs and gaming groups keeping things alive where do people get information about them. I've seen one of the more free speaking managers openly tell a customer that he knows of gaming clubs in a neighbouring town but cannot tell them the name or any contact details as they aren't a CGN club. The club in question has been established for over 10 years and run annual events. GW seem to be in a catch 22 situation. They won't drop the SG line but refuse to increase the support for it as it's not profitable.

Sorry if this seems like a personal Yabba attack it's not meant to. The couple discussions I've had with you have always been enjoyable.

yabbadabba
26-08-2010, 14:14
Yabba I can understand what your saying with SG needing to be commercially viable but I'm sure a middle ground could be found rather than banning them outright. The bunker store close to me could allow games in the bunker during off times for example. The local one man store has space that was accommodated with 2 painting stations until a fire audit when they were told the stools were to close to the fire exit. That area could have a Bloodbowl board for example. Where GW have the space they could allow games but this would need to be decided on a local level. Agreed, but there is a massive change in the way GWUK runs. This is why I recommended that the OP write to Mark Wells or John Carter to get the definitive answer.


With regards to clubs and gaming groups keeping things alive where do people get information about them. I've seen one of the more free speaking managers openly tell a customer that he knows of gaming clubs in a neighbouring town but cannot tell them the name or any contact details as they aren't a CGN club. The club in question has been established for over 10 years and run annual events. Actually GW support for clubs is better now than ever before just on the basis of the GCN. Now I am not singing eithers' praises but the fact that GW can promote a club which has CRB accreditation is, in this day and age and with GW's target demographic, a very very good thing. Its actually the clubs that need to find ways to tap into GW's resource of recruiting new gamers - if they so choose.


GW seem to be in a catch 22 situation. They won't drop the SG line but refuse to increase the support for it as it's not profitable. Its only a Catch 22 if you value the SGs. For GW its money for old rope. I am sure they are content with what they have.
OK lets put this into real terms. BlongBling has said that SGs accounted for 5% of GW's turnover before their total withdrawal. So in current pennies thats what - £5-6m? OK so to capitalise on promoting SGs you would need the investment in stock, possibly stock in stores, retraining staff, a MAJOR promotional drive etc etc - for a £5-6m growth in sales and questionable profits.
Or you can focus on the other 95% of the games and increase their market share at the expense of a slow selling minor line; lines which have more chance of expansion and playability for customers. As GW is still in a poor financial position it would make more sense to capitalise on the lines that will make the money, rather than a gamble on lines which have been proved not to.
The thing is I really believe that SGs are awesome games. If I was GW I would wait for a fallow year between core game releases and spend one WD looking at the SGs and how they can fit into your regualr core gaming using current models. However as a customer I believe that SGs will not return unless there is some major cash and alternative attitude injections into the company. Therefore if I want to enjoy the product then, like HG Wells' Little Wars, I have to go out and find my opponents.


Sorry if this seems like a personal Yabba attack it's not meant to. The couple discussions I've had with you have always been enjoyable.Nonsense old fella, you have made more sense than many and I certainly don't take it personally :D

DapperAnarchist
26-08-2010, 15:00
The problem with contacting GWHQ for their policy is that there doesn't seem to be one - and that is to the advantage of GW in this. They make the money without getting the flak...

Ravenous
26-08-2010, 15:04
When I worked for GW we allowed specialist games (even talisman) but only if the tables werent being used by 40k, fantasy and LotR.

Basically, the core games come first.

You have to remember the point of most GW stores is to recruit new players. Observe the all mighty Hobby Cone!

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa298/Ravenouspainting/Hobbycone.jpg

SG makes up for the smallest amount of profit.

Grimmeth
26-08-2010, 15:19
My local store don't allow specialist games, and the reason the manager gives (and he's a good guy - just driven too hard by upper management!) is that it has a negative effect on sales figures.

At first this sounds ridiculous, but it comes down to the advertising thing mentitoned earlier - people play 40k/fantasy/wotr (very occasionally), other people see this and want to buy armies or new armies = more sales at higher (I presume) profit margin.

The beauty is that most of the specialist games need less space to play (Blood Bowl just needs it's board, Necro/Mordheim work best on 4 x 4 - can't comment on BDG or Epic) so they are much easier to play at home or at a club.

Fredox
26-08-2010, 15:42
I understand the need for companies to make money. I'd still be in my dream job if the company I worked for was better at it. As for directional changes at GW I only get what I'm told on the forums I visit and my local stores (with recent changes this'll probably stop to). I might even be tempted to pick up pen and paper myself and will let you know the outcome if I do.

The CGN support is great but at the time in question there wasn't a GCN club to promote so the staffers hands were tied. I understand the value of CRB checks and GW not wanting to promote clubs that haven't been checked. The same staffer later helped a group set up a GCN club and gave them massive amounts of support. In a strange way I think GW are partly to blame for the apparent lack of clubs in the UK but that's getting even more OT.

With regard to profitability I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to 28mm SGs. GW should promote alternate use of their mainstream and SG models. How many extra Empire citizen models would be sold if they were picked up for Mordheim? Forgeworld wouldn't mind selling a few extra sets for use in Necromunder either I bet. A game I enjoyed when it was released was Gorkamorka and I'd probably progress onto a full Ork army if it was played now. I don't know what Forgeworlds sculptors workload is like but perhaps that's one way GW could approach SG production.

In the end I'd guess I'm a lucky one that has room at home (just about) and a GCN club to play SGs in but I'd still like to play the occasional game in store but I doubt it'll happen with the one-man stores being the way GW are going for future stores.

Chaos and Evil
26-08-2010, 15:54
The beauty is that most of the specialist games need less space to play (Blood Bowl just needs it's board, Necro/Mordheim work best on 4 x 4 - can't comment on BFG or Epic) ...
Epic and BFG work best on 6x4 tables.

RunepriestRidcully
26-08-2010, 17:27
In a strange way I think GW are partly to blame for the apparent lack of clubs in the UK but that's getting even more OT.
That sounds interesting, I'm guessing it is something to do with GW making non GW gaming stores scarce in the Uk?



I don't know what Forgeworlds sculptors workload is like but perhaps that's one way GW ould approach SG production.

That would be nice, the bit FW did before there range got smashed:cries: was indeed better then GW's offerings, just look at the warhounds, and would be a steady level of support without GW thinking it takes too much away from the main 3, and that is so bad because, according to them, no one is interested in any of the game styles occupied by the specialist games right?
Also, th banning of them in stores (even when no one is using the tables or there are no other gamers in the store:wtf:) does hurt them, one problem I have had when I talk to other people about trying a SG is "but it can't be used in store" which puts people off them. I always thought GW's "people would not spend the same amount of money as a core game" to be flawed, yes, whilst each warband/gang/fleet/team and army may be cheaper then it's core equivilent, that means people are far more likely to start a 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th team/other SG, personal example: the cost of staring a 2nd WFB army (either TK,HE or skaven) has scared me off completly (I cannot even afford the new rule book) and yet I am considerering either a Mordheim or Necromunda gang since it will only cost about 20-£30 to do either, so instead of getting no money for certain, they may get 20-£30.

Grimmeth
26-08-2010, 18:04
Epic and BFG work best on 6x4 tables.

Well, as Meatloaf never sang, 3 outta 5 ain't bad...

DapperAnarchist
26-08-2010, 18:45
4 out of 6 - most Inquisitor games seem to be played on 4x4, even when 6x4 is available - those footwide sections are useful for notes and books.

Chaos and Evil
26-08-2010, 20:38
yeah, but Warmaster and BoFA are also best played on 6x4's... so that's actually 4/8 require a full sized board to play properly.

And very few GW's have enough 6x4's that they can offer them for use by SG's.

Shamutanti
26-08-2010, 23:07
If it's any additional help to this discussion, the training team inform trainee managers that SGs do not make GW profit, that the want to remove them from the range and website is wanted by half the management and that stores which practise SGs, allowing them to surface within stores and leagues/campaigns on top of that to be run, are ones that are often showing the greatest level of decline in terms of profit and recruitment.

Everything I know about GW stores and the things I have witnessed within them proves those stated things true.

Fredox
26-08-2010, 23:36
I have no evidence to back up this but I'd guess the stores that allow SG are run by older managers and are older stores. If GW is comparing profit and recruitment between the new one man stores and older and larger stores then the one man stores will come out on top as they are designed for profit and recruitment.



- For a while, they had a variety of games with various price points to enter into the hobby (most of the specialist games actually served as great recruitment tools for my friends who I got started), and this allowed them to reach a broader audience.

Not from this thread I know but I stumbled across it in the "What made GW a Success?" thread. SG are a tool to be used for recruitment. There's no way my nieces and nephews could afford to start playing any of the core games but they could start off with SG and progress on.

Todosi
27-08-2010, 01:05
I know in the states they are unoffically allowed, BUT if any of the three core systems need the space, the Specialist Games get the boot.

burad
27-08-2010, 03:03
I've never seen that rule in action in any store I have visited.

Grimtuff
27-08-2010, 20:42
I've never seen that rule in action in any store I have visited.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ;)

surprize
27-08-2010, 22:24
I can see how it would affect profitability, even at a store level.

Quite a few of the SG are fantastic fun, so if people in an area are exposed to them, they may well realise that big GW armies are not the only way to play a wargame. They then sack off the core games for a while and have some cheap fun with a SG or two.

One of the reasons that the current SG's have survived (among all the ones GW released) is that they are cracking games. I can see why GW stores would want to keep people in the dark about them!!

burad
28-08-2010, 01:09
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
Ah, but it means the assessment can only be made with low confidence in the absence of any corroborating information.

BobtheInquisitor
28-08-2010, 01:37
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ;)

That's what I keep telling the purple penguins that live in Africa.

Havock
28-08-2010, 02:08
the obvious solution is to make a metal blood bowl board with magnetized mini's.

Screw your tables, we put our balls to the wall!

chromedog
28-08-2010, 03:51
I don't really care about it.
I don't play in a GW store, and haven't in over 10 years.

I'd rather play it in a club environment with beer nearby (and no black/red shirt 'tards in attendance).

lanrak
30-08-2010, 12:32
Hi all.
The ONLY justification GW has for B&M stores is recruitment of new customers into an isolated marketing policy.

In this respect the wider the range of starter games the more effective the recruitment can be.

Trying to optimise returns from the B&M stores has just just invalidated their original purpose, IMO.

Spending over half a companies profit on recruitment, then making the recruitment of new customers a difficult as possible for the staff at these venues,is idiocy IMO.

B&M stores were seen as loss-leader PR ,to maintain customer recruitment and long term interest.They may not have returned profits directly ,but were responcible for growing AND retaining the customer base.

Now after the 'bean counters' have had thier way, they are just inefficient sales outlets that cannot recruit or market product efficiently enought to prevent deminishing customer interest.

GW retail chain has been turned from an essential interface with its customers, to a inconvenient and inefficient financial millstone.

And I see the '1 man stores' as the start of GWs exit strategy....

I dont think GW will replace its B&M chain with 'great game play and value for money' that other companies use instead of isolated marketing.

TTFN

ChrisIronBrow
31-08-2010, 02:38
And I see the '1 man stores' as the start of GWs exit strategy....




I absolutely agree. GW's arrogance continues to amaze me. It's only a matter of time before the players finish phasing GW out of their hobby. The only reason GW is still afloat is because of their name. A new player wants to start playing and he can choose between Warmachine or Warhammer, in the vast majority of cases it's decided by what the locals are playing. GW keeps making it harder and harder to buy and play Warhammer Locally, meanwhile their competition is doing everything possible to make it easier to play their games.


Oh, and as a Former Games workshop retail Employee I can vouch for the "specialist" games being banned in many stores. In fact I was repeatedly reprimanded for allowing players to play them, and for organizing "specialist" games and leagues. Even crossover events. I put together a great BFG-40k tournament, using both a 40k and a BFG army. It lasted one day out of the two planned because the District manager came in and shut it down. Even though There were 14 players who had purchased BFG Fleets from my store in preparation for the event.

Ar-Gimilzor
31-08-2010, 02:57
when one of the old staffers (and regular player) came back from his managers course he was a changed man (for changed read totally different, uptight, complaining, rude etc) and we were told to pack up and push off.
See, this makes me angry. GW doesn't deserve to make money. We get borked up rules with each new edition/army book and when we try to play games that aren't broken (i.e. specialist games) we're told (in some places) that it's banned.

If this is happening at your local store kick GW in the balls and stop spending your money on GW completely (long-shot I know, but it's worth a try).

Shamutanti
31-08-2010, 12:08
Even though my 1500 Imperial fleet cost me around £95... If everyone spent £100 minimum you'd just earned the store £1400. What a berk that guy must have been.

It wouldn't of been good for the store in the long run, so if anything it was lost cash. Also it assumes that not a single person has already got a BFG fleet from somewhere (or because of the price of spec. games, people pick them up off ebay).

The event sounds cool and no doubt perfect to run in a club environment, but it simply doesn't sit as being effective in store.


In fact I was repeatedly reprimanded for allowing players to play them, and for organizing "specialist" games and leagues.

Spec. games run within leagues do not make stores long-term cash. That is, people returning constantly, every week/2 weeks/pay day and picking up stuff beyond glues. It's always about the expansion, the increase of a force, thinking upon the next step. Could be a tank, an additional tactical squad, a new character with retinue. Not a spare catcher cause your current one is half-dead.

Should also re-add:


the training team inform trainee managers that SGs do not make GW profit, that the want to remove them from the range and website is wanted by half the management and that stores which practise SGs, allow them to surface within stores and let leagues/campaigns on top of that to be run, are ones that are often showing the greatest level of decline in terms of profit and recruitment.

Everything I know about GW stores and the things I have witnessed within them proves those stated things true.

FabricatorGeneralMike
01-09-2010, 20:34
I absolutely agree. GW's arrogance continues to amaze me. It's only a matter of time before the players finish phasing GW out of their hobby. The only reason GW is still afloat is because of their name. A new player wants to start playing and he can choose between Warmachine or Warhammer, in the vast majority of cases it's decided by what the locals are playing. GW keeps making it harder and harder to buy and play Warhammer Locally, meanwhile their competition is doing everything possible to make it easier to play their games.


Oh, and as a Former Games workshop retail Employee I can vouch for the "specialist" games being banned in many stores. In fact I was repeatedly reprimanded for allowing players to play them, and for organizing "specialist" games and leagues. Even crossover events. I put together a great BFG-40k tournament, using both a 40k and a BFG army. It lasted one day out of the two planned because the District manager came in and shut it down. Even though There were 14 players who had purchased BFG Fleets from my store in preparation for the event.


I know what you mean. When I asked my manager if I could do a BFG-40k Campaign I got looked at like I just failed my eye of the god die roll and got turned into a chaos spawn.

When I started playing geedub games I got drawn into 40k. Then found Space Marine ( 1st ed epic) much more to my liking. I liked command of a whole army better then command of a few squads. I was better at epic so thats what I played. I was pretty much into the Imperium at the time, so I had ; A 10,000 point Marine army, A 15,000 point IG army, About 20,000 points of Titans ( I loved Adpetus Titanticus) some random squats, eldar and chaos stuff.

That is three different armies that I could mix and match, I was constiently buying new stuff for them, constently buying WD for the new rules and articles in them (I loved Andy Chambers back then). Plus I was buying 40k stuff also. I had a 2000 pt SM army and about 2500 pt IG army (Which where huge armies back then.) So thats 5 armies I collected for regularly, I still had to choose what I wanted more, big guys or little guys with little tanks and titans. I had a paper route when I was younger so I had some extra money, then I worked at a pizza place so I had even more money. Making 300$ every two weeks was aces to a 16 year-old kid back then.

After I hit 18 and real life took hold I had to give up my little metal men. But when things settled down and I needed a hobby I went back to my little men and I almost wept when I saw what they did. 3rd ed 40k??? WTF, what are these little flyers you guys all have? Those are the codex books :wtf: ? What do you mean I cant use my old RT era guard, I need the new models :wtf: ? Why are the epic guys in a long line base and not in a square base? :wtf: Why can't I play space marine any more, it's called epic armageddon now? :wtf: What happened to my company card that had all the info for the unit on the card?

Thank god for BL and inferno at the time or I never would of steped foot into a GW back then. Now when I go into a GW ( well I havent been in over 2 years but thats another story) I have models older then most of the people in the store and thats including most of the staff. I really think GW dropped the ball with hiding the SG's. The reasion I got was that they didn't have the shelf space for them, and they didn't want little timmy comming into the store and not being able to buy the models right away. Thats also the reasion they have sold off all their custom terrain and now use nothing but the RoB boards and the pre-fab kits. I can understand that. But on a tuesday morning at 11am no one is going to be in the store, why can't I play epic or BB or atleast network with other SG players so I can find out where to play. If SG's come up you get the evil eye from staff and after all the timmys are done with their intro games and you see mom's face turn green at the prices of the starter stuff and leave empty handed the staffers gives you a little talking to like' I know they are GW games but we don't talk about them'. :wtf: Are they they the retarted ginger step-child that no ones talks about? And yes Chris I was also once part of the evil empire. I remember when I first got hired and the manager told me GW's mission statment was 'World Domination'.....he wasn't joking either.

I don't know where I am going with all this, but that policy and the way GW's are run now just makes me a sad panda. I think its because we all remember the good 'ol days and what they where and we want them back there. Now what they are now. I remember when " for gamers by gamers" ment something.

Chaos and Evil
01-09-2010, 22:42
I have models older then most of the people in the store... why can't I play epic or BB
Because you haven't bought any new models for BB or Epic in 15 years, perhaps. :angel:



Why can't I play space marine any more, it's called epic armageddon now?
To be fair, Epic Armageddon kicks Space Marine's ****.

Chaos and Evil
03-09-2010, 12:49
Surely promoting core sales with the extra income of Specialist Games is a good thing?

How does selling a Blood Bowl team promote the sales of War of the Ring?

Hena
03-09-2010, 13:25
By having people on the store who might buy them? Impulse buys and all that (this is assuming that you're into multiple games).

Grimmeth
03-09-2010, 16:05
How does selling a Blood Bowl team promote the sales of War of the Ring?

Directly it probably won't but most people who try one wargame tend to gravitate towards others.

I, and many others have similar stories I'd imagine, started with Space Crusade, then moved to Warhammer Fantasy from there. I've known others start with Blood Bowl, and Necromunda etc.

I do wish they'd let me set up a Blood Bowl league though, might just do one out of the house mind...

lanrak
03-09-2010, 16:11
Hi all.
This is the thing.Some Specialist Games were great introductory games.
So the potential customers who wouldnt look twice at WHFB-40k, MAY love a SG. And they tell thier freinds about the great SG they like playing.
Thier friends check out GW and find a cool game they like ...and this POSITIVE word of mouth increses interest in GW and widens the potential cusrtomer base.

Now as GW just push 'expensive toy soldiers with lack luster rule sets' .
They HAVE to keep thier customers isolated from the open market..
Which is expencive and pushes the price up and potential customer base down.

GW corperate simply look at the bottom line, NOT the underlying structure that made the core games minatures the most popular and profitable...

TTFN

Bael
03-09-2010, 17:45
If it's any additional help to this discussion, the training team inform trainee managers that SGs do not make GW profit, that the want to remove them from the range and website is wanted by half the management and that stores which practise SGs, allowing them to surface within stores and leagues/campaigns on top of that to be run, are ones that are often showing the greatest level of decline in terms of profit and recruitment.

Everything I know about GW stores and the things I have witnessed within them proves those stated things true.
Good post, and completely true. Seen it 1st hand on several occasions.


I've never seen that rule in action in any store I have visited.

I've never seen it either, but for the reason Shamutanti states, I've not seen them actively promoted in a GW store for about 10 years. I don't think it is an official rule, but for managers wanting to hit their sales targets, I can see some managers not being too enthused to see them being played in their store.

Brother Loki
03-09-2010, 18:14
A question for those who've worked in GW retail, especially more recently. Store staff are encouraged to point customers to the in-store order point (effectively the website) if the item they want isn't in stock. Do those sales get credited to the store's sales figures, or the website's? If it's the latter, I can certainly understand why managers wouldn't be too keen on people playing with products that they can't sell in-store, and have to order direct. All that does is cannibalise money from the store's sales figures.

Chaos and Evil
03-09-2010, 18:25
Do those sales get credited to the store's sales figures, or the website's?
Store's figures.

Shamutanti
03-09-2010, 19:36
Hi all.
This is the thing.Some Specialist Games were great introductory games.
So the potential customers who wouldnt look twice at WHFB-40k, MAY love a SG. And they tell thier freinds about the great SG they like playing.
Thier friends check out GW and find a cool game they like ...and this POSITIVE word of mouth increses interest in GW and widens the potential cusrtomer base.

Now as GW just push 'expensive toy soldiers with lack luster rule sets' .
They HAVE to keep thier customers isolated from the open market..
Which is expencive and pushes the price up and potential customer base down.

GW corperate simply look at the bottom line, NOT the underlying structure that made the core games minatures the most popular and profitable...

TTFN

SGs are not great introductory games. They combine more special rules and more charts and extra rulings (as well as those things involved outside of the game, such as injury charts etc.) than a standard game. If you remove all the advanced ruling and just play 'the basics', than a SG is lacking in every area. It's the advanced rules that MAKE spec. games, well, specialised.

Additionally, those players who enjoy SGs specifically like them BECAUSE of what they play like. Small gang fights, rolling characters, recording on damage, etc. And that doesn't translate instantly into people who like large scale war gaming.

If SGs were truely the way forward and really going to create a buzz (as well as an increase in money) they would of done so. But they failed. All of them. That's why GW now focuses upon core games - there's no profit to be made in SGs. If your base box and models can't shift a profit (whilst also containing a scope that's manageable and expandable) then there's no point in following it up.

Luckily the 3 core games of GW (40k, Warhammer and WotR) have both scope to expand and are more manageable with (less) maintaince.

And it should be noted; any business will look at the bottom line. If it doesn't consider profit and gain then it doesn't become a successful and profitible business anymore and thus dissapears.

The under lying structure of all the core games revolves around the imagery of the games, the passion and excitement generated/invoked by that imagery (and the background/fluff/description) and the quality of the models to represent that. Not from odd warbands fighting in a forgotten and half destroyed city or football teams beating each up over a non-existance piece of the world.

Chaos and Evil
03-09-2010, 20:37
Two different beasts, but BFG and 40k and Epic tie in together nicely.
In my experience, if someone gets into Epic, they either quickly dump 40k or quickly return to 40k.

Very few players continue to play both. Epic provides such a different playstyle that you tend to find players will either abandon their former system for it, or decide it's not for them and go back to what they know and love (40k).

BFG on the other hand is a game that can sit well in a hobby either alongside 40k or Epic.

In fact I'd argue it's the most valuable (To GW) of the SG's. It doesn't directly compete in the same arena like Epic & 40k or Warmaster & WFB, and it doesn't focus on collecting a low number of figures like Necromunda, Mordheim or Inquisitor.

RunepriestRidcully
03-09-2010, 21:06
I think Epic was the third main system untill Lord of the rings came along? if so I think that means Epic at least was good enough to pay it's keep, now it may be a bit more difficult since GW took a wrecking ball to the Epic model range and made the prices for it's models so high they make goldswords look reasonable.

decker_cky
03-09-2010, 21:07
Store's figures.

Yup. Also, even if you order from home and ship into the store for free shipping, that counts towards the store's sales.

yabbadabba
03-09-2010, 21:37
I think Epic was the third main system untill Lord of the rings came along? if so I think that means Epic at least was good enough to pay it's keep, now it may be a bit more difficult since GW took a wrecking ball to the Epic model range and made the prices for it's models so high they make goldswords look reasonable. You still banging that drum? Despite everything that has been said, you cannot accept that SG's just did not sell enough to make them viable to GW? The fact that GW released 6(?) versions of the game, and yet it never actually sold enough at any point to keep it going in the stores just doesn't convince you that there was a problem selling SGs for GW?

SGs are a great cottage industry and I hope for the day GW licences them out. But it is time to move on.

FabricatorGeneralMike
04-09-2010, 03:34
You still banging that drum? Despite everything that has been said, you cannot accept that SG's just did not sell enough to make them viable to GW? The fact that GW released 6(?) versions of the game, and yet it never actually sold enough at any point to keep it going in the stores just doesn't convince you that there was a problem selling SGs for GW?

SGs are a great cottage industry and I hope for the day GW licences them out. But it is time to move on.

No thats not right. There was a shift in upper managment and they decided that they wanted them gone. LotR didn't help as there is only so much shelf space in a store. So what do you dump? The new shiney game or the older ones that you don't need as much for but still have a very loyal following?

I see why they did it, money talks. They are a business and I totally understand that but before it seemed like they had a soul as a company. It could just be me with rose tinted glasses on :cool: but things seemed different back then.

yabbadabba
04-09-2010, 08:20
No thats not right. There was a shift in upper managment and they decided that they wanted them gone. LotR didn't help as there is only so much shelf space in a store. So what do you dump? The new shiney game or the older ones that you don't need as much for but still have a very loyal following?

I see why they did it, money talks. They are a business and I totally understand that but before it seemed like they had a soul as a company. It could just be me with rose tinted glasses on :cool: but things seemed different back then. I am right. We have had Blongbling, and other ex-GW staff, on here discussing how poorly SGs sold. People with no need to be loyal to GW. Hell, just being at enough GW sales and seeing how much SGs have been there (remember the Warmaster sale?) can highlight this for the dicerning observer. Looking at the sheer amount of dust that accumalated on the SG sections in GW stores and FLGS's. Talking to my local LGS store managers over the years about why they weren't getting the new stuff in. LotR just gave them the opportunity to replace a very slow selling line with a faster selling line.

What the upper management failed to do is understand why that 3-5% of sales was important for some customers and the company. If they did, they might have come up with a better, more cost efficient way of supporting SGs.

Chaos and Evil
04-09-2010, 09:32
To be fair, before Epic became a SG it did sell well.

It was the misstep of Epic's 3rd edition, with its unpopular rules system, and unpopular demand that everyone re-base their infantry from square to oblong shaped bases, that killed Epic's status as a Core Game.

By the time LoTR came along, Epic had been a Specialist Game for a while (And indeed, had had its superb 4th edition "Armageddon" rulebook released by then)... and as a Specialist Game it sold okayish, but never approached the turnover seen in its sales heyday of 1st/2nd edition.

FabricatorGeneralMike
04-09-2010, 17:59
To be fair, before Epic became a SG it did sell well.

It was the misstep of Epic's 3rd edition, with its unpopular rules system, and unpopular demand that everyone re-base their infantry from square to oblong shaped bases, that killed Epic's status as a Core Game.

By the time LoTR came along, Epic had been a Specialist Game for a while (And indeed, had had its superb 4th edition "Armageddon" rulebook released by then)... and as a Specialist Game it sold okayish, but never approached the turnover seen in its sales heyday of 1st/2nd edition.


Thats what I don't get, in it's hayday it was more popular then 40K at the Gastown GW in Vancouver BC. We had to push to push two 8x4 tables together because there was such a huge turnout for saturday games. The one thing that I liked and didn't like was the 'screen' you used at the beginning of the game. It was nice to have hidden deployment, but it sucked for the people holding up the screen. Unless you had a curton or something in the middle it was a crappy 1/2hr to 45 mins of holding the bloody thing up.

Sighs, I really miss those days.

Hena
04-09-2010, 19:26
Reality with Epic is that since it doesn't support all the major races of 40k it won't be popular (people will want to play their army in that scale as well). Unfortunately GW has no intention of doing that.

RunepriestRidcully
04-09-2010, 19:43
from the old white dwarfs and things on ebay, it looked like Epic used to support all the major races of the time, and then GW gutted the Epic range.

yabbadabba
04-09-2010, 20:07
Sighs, I really miss those days. Don't we all :angel:, especially the prices lol!


from the old white dwarfs and things on ebay, it looked like Epic used to support all the major races of the time, and then GW gutted the Epic range. There is no helping you is there.

Chaos and Evil
04-09-2010, 20:52
from the old white dwarfs and things on ebay, it looked like Epic used to support all the major races of the time, and then GW gutted the Epic range.

It's more than they released 3rd edition, sales *utterly tanked* because the rule system was disliked, and then they withdrew Epic.

They brought Epic back with 4th edition through the Fanatic department, and intended to release a whole bunch of new armies, but then GW started having financial troubles and with the Fanatic department's games losing more money than they made it made sense to cease development on all of them, including Epic.

Then the Fanatic range was renamed the "Specialist Games".

Then GW stores started to ban Specialist Games being played in stores.

Then it reached a point where more stores banned them than allowed them.

Then someone started a thread on Warseer asking why they couldn't play Specialist Games in GW stores***.

This is the four hundredth such thread.


*** Answer: Because GW doesn't make £££ from them.

yabbadabba
04-09-2010, 21:21
*** Answer: Because GW doesn't make £££ from them. Can I just take this a little further C+E? According to my sources, all SGs but Mordheim and Warmaster exceeded expectations on release, but then sales plummeted short-mid, mid-long term. Over all, all the SG projects failed to show the overall sales needed to justif their continuing support outside of JJ's Living Rulebook Project. Now bear in mind as well that BB, Necromunda, Mordheim and I think E:A have all had further support after the vast majority of the lines were withdrawn from the stores. Even these failed to provide anything like the interest needed.

Moving away from history for a minute, I did suggest to someone at GW that for GD every year they sold a re-release: MoW, SGs etc, with the entire range, but in limited numbers. You could pre-order up to 2 weeks before GD and can only get your order at GD. This could be repeated at other countries. They said it wouldn't be worth it, yet the success of SH seems to suggest otherwise.

Daemonslave
04-09-2010, 22:04
I'm surprised they don't rerelease Warhammer Quest, since, apart from character models, it uses miniatures from the fantasy range which are already available. People wanting to have all the monsters for even just the first few levels would have to buy a lot of miniatures which could rake in £££.

I can understand GW not wanting to invest too heavily in some games (in particular Bloodbowl, because as soon as you have your team (less than 20 models usually) then you dont have to buy anymore to keep on playing. They want games that need a lot of minis and will tie in with their core games. Space Hulk was successful because it was a limited run and the miniatures were compatible with 40k Marine and Tyranid armies.

The number of sales GW makes each year is lessening, and they need more introductory games, but not games that may take away sales from their core games. They need games that can use the same models as 40k/Fantasy, but they also need it to require a lot of models to play (forcing people to not be able to simple buy a few models and be complete).

Allowing people to play SG in store will encourage others to play games that need less miniatures, which is, obviously, a bad thing for GW.

Space Hulk was a bit of a missed opportunity - although it sold well, they could have supported it so much better by making it available to mainstream supermarket chains and offering additional rules for other races/units so that people can buy more stuff to play the game. Optional plastic floor tiles? - they too would have sold loads.

Oh well. Let's hope they do rerelease 'Quest and utilise what a stand-alone game should be aimed to do - get fresh blood into the hobby.

Bassik
05-09-2010, 13:49
I know that BFG is still played in GW Amsterdam, and I once played it myself in GW Rotterdam. Never heard of this policy before, maybe it doesn't exist in the Netherlands?

t-tauri
05-09-2010, 14:47
Can I just take this a little further C+E? According to my sources, all SGs but Mordheim and Warmaster exceeded expectations on release, but then sales plummeted short-mid, mid-long term. Over all, all the SG projects failed to show the overall sales needed to justif their continuing support outside of JJ's Living Rulebook Project. Now bear in mind as well that BB, Necromunda, Mordheim and I think E:A have all had further support after the vast majority of the lines were withdrawn from the stores. Even these failed to provide anything like the interest needed.


The "Specialist" games started out as a way to fill the gap between new editions of 40k and Fantasy. The schedule was to have a new big box game out in the run up to Christmas. New fantasy and 40k came out in four year cycles with two years between each. The big box specialist games were intended for the "gap" years.

They were produced in limited numbers and after their spell in the sun they were sold off in sales at just around production cost. That eliminated all the stock and another box game replaced them on the shelves. The sales numbers weren't great but by selling them out in sales GW cleared the stocks and made back the production cost and a little more.

They learned form this with the Space Hulk release. They probably printed around as many copies as they did of the old big box games but by stating the numbers were limited they created a buying frenzy for the game which cleared their stocks in weeks, rather than the years of the old cycle. I think that this limited release is the only way we'll see new editions of any SG games outside of living rulebooks.

In many ways we were spoiled by some of the outdated games receiving continued support after they'd reached their built in obsolescence point. Necromunda, Epic and Mordheim received support through fanatic and via new rules editions but they didn't sell well.

Lord of the Rings took away the shelf space in the stores and left them no real option but to remove the specialist games from store as they simply didn't make enough money. Stock sat on shelves for months. They can't advertise SG in store by letting you play them as you can't get into them without significant effort. The death of the bitz orders left the SG difficult to access as many miniatures are now simply unavailable except through the second hand market. One of the things about this hobby is that many of us don't realise we want something until it's out of production.

Look at the ebay market for Escher plasma gunners and the rest. We didn't buy enough when GW were ready to cast as many as we wanted so they stopped giving us the option. Now that GW won't produce them then buyers are fighting in the ruins.

Chaos and Evil
05-09-2010, 14:51
The "Specialist" games started out as a way to fill the gap between new editions of 40k and Fantasy. The schedule was to have a new big box game out in the run up to Christmas.

...

Necromunda, Epic and Mordheim received support through fanatic and via new rules editions but they didn't sell well.

I would note that although some of the SG's like Necromunda and Mordheim were intended as limited in scope, Epic, Warmaster and Battlefleet were all intended to have long-term ongoing investment and development.

It was the SG's collectively not making any money that killed off further support for the entire range, not a pre-detirmined plan.

SG has become an umbrella label for a slew of GW experiments that failed to generate (enough) cash. You can't label them all as "big box games" and you can't label them all as "war games".

MarcoSkoll
05-09-2010, 14:59
Thing is, such games are not verboten at Warhammer World.
The thing with Warhammer World is that because they have the full catalogue on site (although probably not on the shelves), they're never at risk of someone coming in, seeing a game of *insert specialist game of choice here*, wanting to buy it and being told that "No, sorry, we don't stock that here, you have to mail order it".

Also, people are much less likely to wander into WHW and NOT be aware of the range of GW's games (it's hardly a place you run across by accident). While an average store has to act as an advertisement to anyone who wanders in, WHW is hardly a place you visit without some prior knowledge.

So, in short, while seeing a specialist game in the average GW store may hurt sales - either because the more complex rulesets put people off (although it's arguable how much more complex some of them really are) or because it's not immediately available for sale (although again, a lot of even the core systems has to be had by mail order these days, at least based on my local store's range) - in WHW, most people know what they're looking for anyway and even they do see something "out of the ordinary", they can have it.

wikear
05-09-2010, 15:10
As a previous GW employee in UK I have to say that it is sad but true. No specialist games allowed in the store.

Having said that I think it is up to the manager i fhe is going to allow SGs on Veteran Thursdays or something. My manager had a squinted eye when he saw a nonGW model converted for GW game. So it is in the end a shops policy with strong inclination towards a no-go for SGs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

junglesnake
05-09-2010, 15:17
I would note that although some of the SG's like Necromunda and Mordheim were intended as limited in scope, Epic, Warmaster and Battlefleet were all intended to have long-term ongoing investment and development.

Not exactly right. I think they were simply 'ideas' that they judged to have enough legs to earn their money back and generate some. Over the long term it probably isn't viable to support a game like Necromunda properly.

Epic on the other hand defenitely was a longer term game when it first came out. It had several editions and expansions and before it was completely redeveloped with the new model tanks etc it had an incredibly extensive support in place with pretty much all races accounted for. Squats actually lasted longer in Epic than in 40k where they were pretty much killed off at the begining of 2nd ed with only a limited list given in the box set.

Warmaster had the legs to some extent but it is a strange one. I think it was an attempt at Epic-Fantasy. The problem is that it was recognised as a good system but something they felt was too close to traditional wargaming.


It was the SG's collectively not making any money that killed off further support for the entire range, not a pre-detirmined plan.

Well that's not true is it? It wasn't that they weren't making money, they just weren't making enough money to warrant employing people to support it. Hence the creation of the specialist games part of their site.


<Snip snip snip > You can't label them all as "big box games" and you can't label them all as "war games".

Epic on its original release was a 'big box game'. I really don't understand why they are not a wargame?!!! :eyebrows: Wargames don't have to be massive affairs which is why they have games called skirmish games. GW currently don't actually support any real skirmish games in the sense that they lean towards bigger tables with massed ranks of troops. Skirmish games tend to be based around the use of 30-40 figures a side tops and whilst this was the case more often than not in 2nd ed, it really hasn't been since appart from the wonderfully colourful kill team section of the last set of rules.

The fact of the matter is GW is a bigger beast, they want to put their investment into something that gives them the best return. Its not about making enough money to justify the game its about making enough to make a return on the investment. In that way its better to employ people to work on their main core games: Warhammer, 40k and LOTR.

Things like Space Hulk and Bloodbowl hardly even register on their radar as they are small scaled games that you can invest less than £100 in an never need anything else - return buys are low. However they do release them everynow and then because they are technicaly wargames and are a good way of introducing people to the hobby that wouldn't normally walk into a GW store.

And to be honest I suspect future releases like that may be liscensed to other games manufacturers like Talisman.

thenamelessdead
05-09-2010, 15:18
I was pleasantly surprised to see a copy of Blood Bowl sitting on a shelf in the Oxford St store today, but was told that that is basically the extent of SG support in store. Only them and Nottingham have anything out.

Personally I can see why GW don't give SG's the full backing of the main games but things like E:A barely got pushed on release, never mind continued support. I'd feel shafted if I was an Epic player. All they'd have to do would be give it a bit of mainstream coverage and make the models available, at least online. Maybe the support in its heyday was too much to sustain (and I can believe that) but they've gone from that to virtually treating these great games with contempt.

Lennysmash
05-09-2010, 15:33
A lot of people that have posted here have continually said that specialist games take away sales for the core systems. Imho that is simply not the case, the majority of specialist gamers I know play these games as well as the core systems, often having several of the bands/faction required for each game. I'm not clued up on the technical side of business but to me this seems like perfect sense, in short is it not simply a form of diversification? I understand that in order to produce good revenues stores have to be able to sell the accoutrements to the core games but that doesn't mean it should stop the use of its store facilities for its other games. Imho in GW quest to get younger gamers it has marginalised a lot of its older clientèle, this is where the drop in sales has come and when combined with the rise of forums such as Warseer and Dakka it has resulted in a steep loss in revenue. Just my opinion for what I see through my gaming friends, if someone knows different I'd be interested to hear their take on the subject.

@thenamelessdead, loving the avatar btw, always good to meet a fellow Devonian on the sites.

Chaos and Evil
05-09-2010, 15:35
Epic on its original release was a 'big box game'.

You misunderstand. "Big Box Game" is used to refer to a self-contained game, like Space Hulk. Only a very few limited expansions would be available for a "big box game". Like with Warhammer Quest or Necromunda or Mordheim. That's a big boxed game.

Epic, Warmaster, BoFA, BFG, those are full "wargames" with a very large range of models and factions.


I really don't understand why they are not a wargame?!!!
Is Inquisitor a "war game"?
Or is it a 1v1 skirmish game?

How about Necromunda, "war game", or campaign-based skirmish system?

How about Blood Bowl?
War game?


Wargames don't have to be massive affairs which is why they have games called skirmish games.
Which makes them a skirmish game, not a full "war game".

"Big Boxed Game" - Generally a self-contained game like Space Hulk.
"War Game" - Generally a "full" game system with many factions and many model kits.


GW currently don't actually support any real skirmish games in the sense that they lean towards bigger tables with massed ranks of troops. Skirmish games tend to be based around the use of 30-40 figures a side tops
Or 10 per side (Necromunda, Mordheim) or 1-3 per side (Inquisitor).

Really, at 30 models per side you're entering "war game" territory, not skirmish.


Things like Space Hulk and Bloodbowl hardly even register on their radar as they are small scaled games that you can invest less than £100 in an never need anything else - return buys are low. However they do release them everynow and then because they are ... a good way of introducing people to the hobby that wouldn't normally walk into a GW store.
The re-release of Space Hulk was sold 99% to existing players.

That's the only way you can explain the game selling out in two weeks, it was bought by existing customers.

GW explicitly don't want to use boxed games like Space Hulk as a recruitment tool, because players recruited in that manner:

- Expect ongoing support.
- Look at the price discrepancy between the cheaper boxed game and the big battle game (£300 required for an army, plus £40 for a rulebook and £15 for a second rulebook ("codex"), instead of £60 for a boxed game is a big difference!) and tend to stick with their boxed game.

t-tauri
05-09-2010, 16:40
I would note that although some of the SG's like Necromunda and Mordheim were intended as limited in scope, Epic, Warmaster and Battlefleet were all intended to have long-term ongoing investment and development.

Epic was originally Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine, so those were big box games in the cycle. It just got more editions. I think my point about the games not being initially intended for any great longevity past a box, a few dozen miniature releases and a smaller follow up rules box still stands. Warmaster and Inquisitor were attempts to change the cycle to some extent but the sporadic support, constant moving of the goalposts and low level of profits killed them.

SG has become an umbrella label for a slew of GW experiments that failed to generate (enough) cash. You can't label them all as "big box games" and you can't label them all as "war games". Everything except Inquisitor and Warmaster started as a big box game. That was GW's launch product strategy for years, a complete set of two forces and rules. I didn't mention wargames but they are all wargames by most definitions I'm aware of. Skirmish games and RPGs are wargames.

Chaos and Evil
05-09-2010, 18:02
Epic was originally Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine, so those were big box games in the cycle.
Those weren't "big box games", those were starter sets in the same vein as "Island of Blood" is today. Even Adeptus Titanicus launched with supplementary blister kits, and later expanded with adding other races too.

They (Especially by the time Space Marine was launched) had many other miniature kits you could buy to expand your force.

Even today, the (Much reduced) Epic range has 90-100 blisters & boxed sets.

The Space Marine days would have had probably three times that many blisters, kits & bitz codes available.

That's not a "boxed game", even if it started with a more limited release (The Core Game releases followed a very similar product life cycle too, after all, starting with a few kits and expanding over time).

ChrisIronBrow
06-09-2010, 06:35
'World Domination'.....he wasn't joking either.


It was explained to me as "TGD" Total Global Domination.

junglesnake
06-09-2010, 09:09
You misunderstand. "Big Box Game" is used to refer to a self-contained game, like Space Hulk. Only a very few limited expansions would be available for a "big box game". Like with Warhammer Quest or Necromunda or Mordheim. That's a big boxed game.

I worked for GW when these games were out - never heard them refered to as that. IMHO Space Hulk, Bloodbowl, Talisman and Warhammer Quest are probably better defined as 'board games'.


Epic, Warmaster, BoFA, BFG, those are full "wargames" with a very large range of models and factions.

Is Inquisitor a "war game"?
Or is it a 1v1 skirmish game?

I think you need to look up the defenition of 'wargame'. That's not a dig but it appears that you are using a very washed up GW idea of the term. A wargame is any game, even a board game, that has an element of combat or war to it. Hence Risk is even deamed as a wargame by some. ALL of these games are wargames - what you are trying to define is the difference in game style: skirmish, grand scale(epic, warmaster etc).

The funny thing is when it comes to defining Warhammer and 40k they sort of don't fit any stereo type anymore. You really can't call them skirmish games.


How about Necromunda, "war game", or campaign-based skirmish system? How about Blood Bowl? War game? Which makes them a skirmish game, not a full "war game".
"Big Boxed Game" - Generally a self-contained game like Space Hulk.
"War Game" - Generally a "full" game system with many factions and many model kits.

See my response above. These are ALL 'wargames' but just different types. Bloodbowl is probably the most loosely described as a wargame but it is one none the less. As for full system with many factions - that's a pretty bad analogy to use considering Bloodbowl actually covers all of the factions in fantasy plus more that Warhammer doesn't cover - Norse etc.


Or 10 per side (Necromunda, Mordheim) or 1-3 per side (Inquisitor).

You start with 8 or 9 in Necro normally. But I challenge anyone not to have nearer 20 by the time they finish a campaign. Mordheim is even more I believe considering you can have small units.

Inquisitor was GW's attempt to bridge the gap between wargaming and role playing.

[QUOTE=Chaos and Evil;4964458]Really, at 30 models per side you're entering "war game" territory, not skirmish.[QUOTE]

Please see above.

[QUOTE=Chaos and Evil;4964458]The re-release of Space Hulk was sold 99% to existing players.[QUOTE]

The latest edition was, however I do believe that some copies made it into shops that would consider themselves as 'boardgame' shops. Whilst not selling large quantaties to 'new' customers it gets them exposure in a place they may not normally get it. Back in the day Space Hulk was sold in more places than just GW and one or two other shops.

[QUOTE=Chaos and Evil;4964458]That's the only way you can explain the game selling out in two weeks, it was bought by existing customers.[QUOTE]

The game sold out in two weeks due to a very clever marketing ploy of GW stating that it was limited edition without ever stating how many they were actually going to make. There then was that story of them having found more stock?!!!! The other thing is that if murmerings are to be believed the reason for the latest spate of games is due to their IP on these games coming to an end or some such thing (copyright?).

[QUOTE=Chaos and Evil;4964458]GW explicitly don't want to use boxed games like Space Hulk as a recruitment tool.[QUOTE]

Really? Then what is it? The reason a lot of GW customers bought it was because it was an iconic game of their youth and it had some really cool models in it. However when it was first released that is exactly what it was for.

Firstly Warhammer and 40k are not recomended to kids under the age of 14. Note how Lord of the Rings was and most of the basic miniatures are very simple in construction with even a lot of the metals being one piece.

Originally games like Space Hulk, Talisman, Bloodbowl, Warhammer Quest etc plus the games made jointly with MB - Spacecrusade and Heroquest were made with the idea that they needed minimul modeling ability and would be more suitable for younger kids. This then exposed them to the GW 'universe' which may well see them mature into playing the core games. They were very much recruitment tools.

I am not trying to be harsh here but it does appear that the way you look at these things is slightly blinkered.

junglesnake
06-09-2010, 09:16
Skirmish games and RPGs are wargames.

Erm, RPG's aren't nessisarily wargames. The main difference being that you don't need figures to play an RPG and that an RPG can be based around anything, there doesn't have to be combat of any sort involved.

I think they are very much considered to be seperate enterties that happen to cross paths at times, that's all.

AndrewGPaul
06-09-2010, 09:19
Moving away from history for a minute, I did suggest to someone at GW that for GD every year they sold a re-release: MoW, SGs etc, with the entire range, but in limited numbers. You could pre-order up to 2 weeks before GD and can only get your order at GD. This could be repeated at other countries. They said it wouldn't be worth it, yet the success of SH seems to suggest otherwise.

There is no GW game I like so much that I'm willing to pay £200 for. :) If it were available online on the same day as GD, I'd probably .order a re-released Warhammer Quest or whatever.

Chaos and Evil
06-09-2010, 09:29
I think you need to look up the defenition of 'wargame'.
Clearly, our terminologies differ.

I think you'll find the majority of gamers make the distinction between "full wargame" and "skirmish game" like I do, dictionary definitions notwithstanding.


Really? Then what is it? (Space Hulk re-release)
It was a way of selling more stuff to existing customers, of course.

Space Hulk 1 & 2 may well have been seen as recruitment aids, but Space Hulk 3 certainly wasn't. If it was it would have been a non-limited production run and it would have been aggressively put into non-GW stores.

Nor has any stand-alone boxed set GW's made in something like ten years been seen as a recruitment path.


Firstly Warhammer and 40k are not recomended to kids under the age of 14.
Odd that they primarily sell to kids aged 11-14 then.


I am not trying to be harsh here but it does appear that the way you look at these things is slightly blinkered.
I'm talking about today, not fifteen years ago, when you worked for GW.

Also, you're playing silly buggers with semantics and then saying I'm blinkered.

yabbadabba
06-09-2010, 09:40
There is no GW game I like so much that I'm willing to pay £200 for. :) If it were available online on the same day as GD, I'd probably .order a re-released Warhammer Quest or whatever. Yeah but there are plenty that would :evilgrin:

This thread is starting to become a little bit hot tempered on definitions that are, to be frank, now immaterial. As it stands we still have no official answer from GWs upper management so the original point is still very much up for speculation.

junglesnake
06-09-2010, 12:41
Clearly, our terminologies differ.

I think you'll find the majority of gamers make the distinction between "full wargame" and "skirmish game" like I do, dictionary definitions notwithstanding.

There is more to the wargaming hobby than GW! There is only really one terminology and I am using the one that is most accepted. There really is no such thing as a 'full wargame' it's either a wargame or it's not.

It's a bit like saying you have little cars and full cars - they both still fall under the unbrella of being a car. It's not really debatable either - what you are saying is something that may be accepted within your social group but its not the wider termanology of the wargaming hobby and industry as a whole.

Wargaming is the hobby so therefore every game we play is a wargame. However there are different types of wargame such as skirmish, air battles, grand scale, platoon level etc etc etc. As I said before its not exactly clear where GW's main games fall these days - LotR used to be skirmish its not so much now.


It was a way of selling more stuff to existing customers, of course.

Space Hulk 1 & 2 may well have been seen as recruitment aids, but Space Hulk 3 certainly wasn't. If it was it would have been a non-limited production run and it would have been aggressively put into non-GW stores.

Nor has any stand-alone boxed set GW's made in something like ten years been seen as a recruitment path.

I agreed with the bit about the latest Space Hulk, just added that it was sold in traditional boardgame shops as well adding exposure rather than new customers buying it.

Every game GW sells is designed to potentially gain them new customers - if they didn't think this way then there would be no point to them what-so-ever. Yes the majority sell to existing customers but that doesn't mean thats all they sell it to.


Odd that they primarily sell to kids aged 11-14 then.

Gah!? :wtf: How many people on Warseer are aged 11-14? If you walk into a store you may well get that impression but go in on a games night or go down to your local gaming club and I am pretty sure the age demographic is vastly different. The club I will be attending tomorrow evening has over 30 members aged 18 and over. I can also account for another club localy that has around 20 members of which only 3 or 4 are younger than 18 and they are mostly 16/17.

Is that because older gamers feel less comfortable in GW stores since parents realised what a handy shopping cresh they can be? I can tell you that the majority of people who buy GW stuff are not in the 11-14 bracket and not do GW target their sales at the 11/12 year olds.


I'm talking about today, not fifteen years ago, when you worked for GW.

Funny because I didn't work for them 15 years ago - I wouldn't have been old enough and had barely started collecting GW myself. Assumption my friend makes more of an ass out of you than me.

Strangely back when I was working for GW they actually did focus their sales at a younger audience. They banned older style models from the store, so if you had a Rogue Trader army they wouldn't let you use it. This was actually a policy at the time. They wanted their new stuff to be on the tables at all times. They even banned games being played instore by Veteran Gamers appart from on Veterans night.

This alienated a lot of the so called 'veteran' gamers which they realised was a big misstake and have been fighting to overturn that ever since.

That's the reason why I think they brought Jarvis in to do his section in White Dwarf that often paid homage to models past and present, revisiting old games and basically just some nice remenising.

GW know their biggest form of advertising - and pretty much their only form - is word of mouth. They will show small kids how to play IF they are with one of their parents who also shows an interest mainly because if they can hook the parent the kid will play.

I have seen Dad's enjoy the game more than the kids to the extent they buy a starter box and parts of armies on the same day they first try the game out. Who is buying it? Not the kids.

The other thing to remember is the internet accounts for a lot of the sales now. Credit or debit card users, people aged 18 and over. Typically the people buying presents for their kids won't order it this way as they are not sure of what they need/want. They tend to go to the store (if one is close) to ask for advice/help.


Also, you're playing silly buggers with semantics and then saying I'm blinkered.

No. I am stating what is a commonly and widespread accepted term is actually the correct term rather than your own understanding of a term. Sorry if this is belitterling you but if you go around a wargaming convention such as Salute in London, or a large club saying this stuff you will get laughed at. All I am saying is use Wikipedia every little once in a while before you are too sure that what your saying is right compared to someone who has worked in the industry and has gamed for 15 years.

Hell I don't even get things right all the time but I will pretty much stick to common hobby termanology rather than something I can't be sure is right. If I am in that situation I will probably even say 'I am not sure this is right but . . . ' gives you an out card every time.

yabbadabba
06-09-2010, 12:51
@Junglesnake - isn't the age on the box games 12+? Certainly was on the last couple editions.

marv335
06-09-2010, 13:15
Another nail in the coffin of SG was the magazine support.
They had their own magazine, which was excellent (in my opinion)
Unfortunately, more copies went to staffers (free) than were sold.
This, in my opinion greatly increased the impression amongst the bean counters that SG were unsustainable.

Chaos and Evil
06-09-2010, 13:39
There is more to the wargaming hobby than GW! There is only really one terminology and I am using the one that is most accepted.
I disagree, and it's still semantics.

Functionally, the Specialist Games range contains a wide range of game systems, not all of which can be described as "introductory boxed games". In fact several of them are the opposite, being as they're intended for "advanced" gamers, not kids (As the core systems are).


Gah!? :wtf: How many people on Warseer are aged 11-14?
And Warseer represent a cross-section of GW customers now do they?


I can tell you that the majority of people who buy GW stuff are not in the 11-14 bracket and not do GW target their sales at the 11/12 year olds.
Really?

Have you seen GW's research materials on this?
Heard their target demographics directly from the mouths of games designers and senior sales people?

There's a constant behind GW's thinking that explains why their rules systems are the way they are (Kid-intended, in general terms).



Funny because I didn't work for them 15 years ago - I wouldn't have been old enough and had barely started collecting GW myself. Assumption my friend makes more of an ass out of you than me.
Firstly, don't call someone an "ass" on the internet, it makes you look like.... well, you know.

Secondly, from your context you seemed to imply you were working for GW when they were releasing boxed games like Space Hulk and Warhammer Quest. That puts your term of service ~15 years ago. 10 at most, being as that's when they stopped making new stand-alone boxed games.


I have seen Dad's enjoy the game more than the kids to the extent they buy a starter box and parts of armies on the same day they first try the game out. Who is buying it? Not the kids.
Dads may be impressed, but they're buying it for the kids... because they played an introductory game and thought "this'll be a great thing to do with my child".


Sorry if this is belitterling you but if you go around a wargaming convention such as Salute in London, or a large club saying this stuff you will get laughed at. All I am saying is use Wikipedia every little once in a while before you are too sure that what your saying is right compared to someone who has worked in the industry and has gamed for 15 years.
I've worked for GW too, yay us.

These days I'm a professional miniatures sculptor using CAD and Matter Printing technology. I've also been published, from time to time. Yay me. :rolleyes:

Now, if you're done telling me how you think "wargame" and "skrimish game" are functionally identical terms, can we get back on topic?

Overlord Krycis
06-09-2010, 15:40
Not sure if anyone who is a current or recently-left staff member for UK has posted...but the current "guidelines" to all staff members that I know of (including myself when I worked there) is that Specialist Games are NOT allowed to be played in the store.
And in case anyone uses "your manager was just being a ******" response, this applied to every store I have been involved in.

I understand the logical reasons for this, I even agreed with them to a certain extent, but the store I worked in (which was pretty small) lost over 30 regulars due to this decision in the space of a fortnight...something that was felt financially by the store as they were all avid Fantasy and 40K players too.

Core games may be GW's way of using us as a free advertisement service and showing us all having a merry old time in the store with their main games is fine...but on Late-night gaming, when the chance of someone just happening to casually walk by and come in to "see what this is all about" is next to nothing, I can't understand why in that situation that SGs can't be played.
Once a fortnight...or even once a month (as long as the table isn't need of course...I think that would be an obvious stipulation tbh) it would be nice to break out a game of Epic...or Warmaster...

junglesnake
06-09-2010, 20:34
I disagree, and it's still semantics.

No - that's the entire point, it's not semantics. Semantics would be a word which has more than one conitation. You can't just take a word and give it a new meaning and then argue semantics! If you can find me one defenition that is logged on the net in some sort of official guise that backs up your idea of what the term 'wargame' means then I will take it all back and admit defeat but Wiki and the Oxford English Dictionary currently stand quite clearly and that's what I go with.


Functionally, the Specialist Games range contains a wide range of game systems, not all of which can be described as "introductory boxed games". In fact several of them are the opposite, being as they're intended for "advanced" gamers, not kids (As the core systems are).

Agreed - never really indicated otherwise. I suggested that the types based on board games, such as Space Hulk (originally), Bloodbowl, Space Crusade, Warhammer Quest, Heroquest, Talisman etc were designed with the idea of GW getting games into the home without people having to really know who GW were to start off with. Hence the joint effort with MB which meant that they were stocked in all kinds of places that they no longer are. You can see this in the way that most of them featured simplified versions of rules.

Epic, Necromunda, Mordheim, Warmaster and Inquisitor were designed under a different guise in that they were aimed at providing something different for gamers to play that already knew the systems. Most of these added a different dimention or level of detail to the usual core game systems. As has been mentioned these were also used as a sort of stop gap between core game re-writes.


And Warseer represent a cross-section of GW customers now do they?

Having been a member for a fair few years I would expect you to know better than me. I would go by the number of members of which there are many, and that in itself tells me that yes, Warseer is pretty diverse when it comes to a cross section of GW gamers although as can be seen by the forums - they are not the only games they play.


Really?

Have you seen GW's research materials on this?
Heard their target demographics directly from the mouths of games designers and senior sales people?

There's a constant behind GW's thinking that explains why their rules systems are the way they are (Kid-intended, in general terms).

Why ask me if I have if you havn't? And constant thinking is - assumption. GW has simplified its rules with each edition. Fantasy 1st edition was a simplified version of a roleplay system that allowed for larger battles to take place. Rogue trader took that on as well. However with each further edition they have taken a step away from that and closer to what I would call a streamlined simplistic system to allow for swifter and less glitchy games for the better use with tournament play and league tables.

Having simpler rules makes the games easier and quicker to understand and therefore open to more people. Whilst I was at GW we were told to simplify introduction games because a) it took less time b) it wouldn't scare people who had never played a wargame before off due to the vast complexities of some parts of the rules.

Yes in the long run that does also make it easier for a young person to pick up the basics of a game but I am pretty sure that their target demographic is not 11-14 year olds considering that the metal figures, glues and some other items are either not advised to be sold or simply are not allowed to be sold to anyone under a certain age.

On top of that any person of that age is likely to be buying the figures etc with parental consent and more often than not with their parents, which again comes back to the simplification so that parents can get involved to. Put simply, by having a simple rules system more people can understand it and therefore more people will be inclined to buy it.


Firstly, don't call someone an "ass" on the internet, it makes you look like.... well, you know.

Actually it's a bit of a pun which it sounds like you have not heard before so I appologise. There is a saying 'Don't assume anything, it makes an ass out of you and me' - and that's what I was refering to (that could possibly be classed as semantics as that saying may not be used a great deal where you are).


Secondly, from your context you seemed to imply you were working for GW when they were releasing boxed games like Space Hulk and Warhammer Quest. That puts your term of service ~15 years ago. 10 at most, being as that's when they stopped making new stand-alone boxed games.

I think on reading my post you could confuse my term of working at GW with how long I have been gaming for. All I know is that I am 28, so 15 years ago I would have been 13 and most defenitely not working for them. However thinking about it I was employed at around the time Mordheim was released, Bloodbowl had a resurgeance (don't think it was an official re-release).

But since then we have also seen Warmaster, the ork fighta bomber game, Inquisitor, the warmaster style game based on the battle in the Hobbit and a revision of Epic. More recently Space Hulk and the liscensing out of Talisman, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and it's 40k equivelent.


Dads may be impressed, but they're buying it for the kids... because they played an introductory game and thought "this'll be a great thing to do with my child".

But its not the kids you have to convince it's a good game, it's the parents who want to know why they are spending £20-£30 in one hit. And although not vast quantaties I did know a few dad's who came back to buy stuff for themselves, some as regular customers even after their son/daughter had grown out of it. Infact quite a few mum's got interested in the painting/modeling side of it as well.



I've worked for GW too, yay us.

I wouldn't really say 'yay' but what the heck! Part of my life I wish I could have got back even if it wasn't that long. I almost vomited on a daily basis with the attempt of brainwashing and the use of a biblical term for their guide to being a 'good little sales person'.


These days I'm a professional miniatures sculptor using CAD and Matter Printing technology. I've also been published, from time to time. Yay me. :rolleyes:

Whilst I would like to congratulate you its pretty hard to on that basis along. There are some CAD sculptors out there who are quite shockingly professional. Without trying to sound horrible, you have to admit there are some pretty cack models out there designed with such tech. I mean I admire what they are trying to do but Wargames Factory for example, hardly match up to the standards of other miniature manufacturers - other than perhaps Old Glory.


Now, if you're done telling me how you think "wargame" and "skrimish game" are functionally identical terms, can we get back on topic?

Firstly I am not telling you how I 'think' they are functionally identical terms - as stated time and time before and in this post, I am refering to the common accepted terminology of the word and so far as I have experienced, seen, researched and read (White Dwarf, Harbinger, Wargames Illustrated, Miniature Wargames plus more). If there is another unwritten termanology used with those words I am very sorry but it must be incredibly local to you and probably not the best to use on an internationaly subscribed web site.

As for going back on topic the 'no specialist games in store' policy has been around a lot longer than people have said. Perhaps not as strict everywhere but the last time I knew of specialist games to be played in store was back when they had a 'veterans' gaming night seperate from the one for reletive new comers and young people. Once they kicked that into touch out went the specialist games. I would say it is pretty much since the specialist games got their own dead end dungeon of a website.

So I would argue that this question is almost historical and infact asks deeper questions than why they have simply been banned from being played in the shops.

I think someone else mentioned it not taking money away from the core games. In response to that I would say that if you have the Specialist games in store and asking your staff to push them as well as the core games you are taking money away from the core games. Less shelf space, more limited amount of stock, staff time spent away from the core games.

So whilst it may not be taking money in terms of competing with the core games it could be costing them money that is taken away from their investment on the core games.

junglesnake
06-09-2010, 20:35
He was using a turn of phrase, to assume makes an ass out of you and me.

String them all together :)

Hopefully that's one semantics battle I won't have to fight then! :D;)

Chaos and Evil
06-09-2010, 21:50
No - that's the entire point, it's not semantics. Semantics would be a word which has more than one conitation. You can't just take a word and give it a new meaning and then argue semantics! If you can find me one defenition that is logged on the net in some sort of official guise that backs up your idea of what the term 'wargame' means then I will take it all back and admit defeat but Wiki and the Oxford English Dictionary currently stand quite clearly and that's what I go with.
I think you're taking obviously local differences in terminology and making a big issue of it. As I've said before, this semantic debate is entirely unnessesary and you really should drop it because it's going nowhere except in circles.

Hell, now you're even playing semantics by analysing the word "semantics"!
(And incorrectly, I might add)


Why ask me if I have if you havn't?
I think the answer to that is pretty obvious.


And constant thinking is - assumption. GW has simplified its rules with each edition. Fantasy 1st edition was a simplified version of a roleplay system that allowed for larger battles to take place. Rogue trader took that on as well. However with each further edition they have taken a step away from that and closer to what I would call a streamlined simplistic system to allow for swifter and less glitchy games for the better use with tournament play and league tables.
I disagree.

The last few editions of the 40k and WFB systems have seen many more layers of Special Rules applied on top of the core rules, with no concurrent reduction in the number of core rules.

Indeed, the core rules have also seen extras added, like "running" and "going to ground" in 40k, and "Thunderstomp!" and initiative-based re-rolls in WFB.

GW did go through a period of making their rules simpler, around the time of 3rd edition 40k and "Ravening Hordes" for WFB, but they've been trending on an increasingly complicated path ever since then (The minor blip of Codex Dark Angels and Codex Chaos Marines excepted).

This has happened because they (The GW Studio) clearly believe that giving every unit type in the game a unique special rule or two appeals greatly to the core demographic (Children) who want lots of "sound and fury" in their games.


...I am pretty sure that their target demographic is not 11-14 year olds considering that the metal figures, glues and some other items are either not advised to be sold or simply are not allowed to be sold to anyone under a certain age.
Only the spray paints and hobby knives are age restricted.

Look on any GW product, and it says "This product is recommended for ages 12+" and "not recommended for children under 3 years of age".

Sounds like it's designed for kids to me.

Also, if GW's game systems aren't intended for children, why are their Core Game rule systems so "childish" in style?


Actually it's a bit of a pun which it sounds like you have not heard before so I appologise. There is a saying 'Don't assume anything, it makes an ass out of you and me'
Don't play Naïve.

You modified the pun into an insult.


...since then we have also seen Warmaster, the ork fighta bomber game, Inquisitor, the warmaster style game based on the battle in the Hobbit and a revision of Epic.
Of all of those, only the Battle of Five Armies qualifies as a self-contained boxed game. An exception that is (I'd forgotten about it), but one self-contained boxed "Specialist" game (In the "wrong" scale and with rules intended for adults rather than kids to boot) in ten years does not a trend make.

All the rest were just paper rules, hardly the sort of thing you can use as an introductory product to bring new blood into the GW hobby.


More recently Space Hulk
Was a limited edition splash product intended for existing customers, and thus doesn't mesh with the "designed to bring newbies into the hobby" idea that you were talking about.


the liscensing out of Talisman, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and it's 40k equivelent.
None of which are miniatures games. So they're only going to bring people into the "GW hobby" incidentally at best.


I wouldn't really say 'yay' but what the heck! Part of my life I wish I could have got back even if it wasn't that long. I almost vomited on a daily basis with the attempt of brainwashing and the use of a biblical term for their guide to being a 'good little sales person'.
Sounds like you "didn't fit".


Whilst I would like to congratulate you its pretty hard to on that basis along. There are some CAD sculptors out there who are quite shockingly professional. Without trying to sound horrible, you have to admit there are some pretty cack models out there designed with such tech. I mean I admire what they are trying to do but Wargames Factory for example, hardly match up to the standards of other miniature manufacturers - other than perhaps Old Glory.
I was just mentioning that I was currently employed in the industry, in a creative capacity.

If I were a Green Stuff sculptor you'd probably have pointed to GW's Razorgors and said "Ha! You should admit that many GS sculptors are cack!"

So you're just trolling with this paragraph, frankly.



I think someone else mentioned it not taking money away from the core games. In response to that I would say that if you have the Specialist games in store and asking your staff to push them as well as the core games you are taking money away from the core games. Less shelf space, more limited amount of stock, staff time spent away from the core games.

So whilst it may not be taking money in terms of competing with the core games it could be costing them money that is taken away from their investment on the core games.

This is all pretty self-evident stuff. If you're in a GW store playing a game then you're also acting as advertising for the company by showing games in progress.

The company wants those games being demonstrated to be ones that customers can pick up off the shelf and join in with.

And that's about all there is to it.

junglesnake
06-09-2010, 22:55
I think you're taking obviously local differences in terminology and making a big issue of it. As I've said before, this semantic debate is entirely unnessesary and you really should drop it because it's going nowhere except in circles.

Hell, now you're even playing semantics by analysing the word "semantics"!
(And incorrectly, I might add).

Well so far as I understand it all of the publications I listed were international. I wasn't the one claiming my interpretation was the 'common' interpretation. In all frankness your the first person I have ever heard of suggesting that a skirmish game is not a wargame, including makers of skirmish games and other types of wargames.


The last few editions of the 40k and WFB systems have seen many more layers of Special Rules applied on top of the core rules, with no concurrent reduction in the number of core rules.

Indeed, the core rules have also seen extras added, like "running" and "going to ground" in 40k, and "Thunderstomp!" and initiative-based re-rolls in WFB.

Ok 5th ed 40k aside, the last two editions have seen an increase in streamlining of the core rules - GW have even said so in the White Dwarf. The layers you mention are re-introducing a degree of detail but nothing complex. Running used to exist and really isn't that tough a concep. Going to ground is more or less 'pinning' but voluntarily. The first of these two speeds up the game so people get into the gritty combat quicker.

Otherwise the most complex thing they have done is in terms of certain characters effecting the force organisation charts or giving their forces a bonus of a type.


This has happened because they (The GW Studio) clearly believe that giving every unit type in the game a unique special rule or two appeals greatly to the core demographic (Children) who want lots of "sound and fury" in their games.

Only the spray paints and hobby knives are age restricted.

Look on any GW product, and it says "This product is recommended for ages 12+" and "not recommended for children under 3 years of age".

Sounds like it's designed for kids to me.

Also, if GW's game systems aren't intended for children, why are their Core Game rule systems so "childish" in style?

Try the glue as well, both the polycement and the super glue. Don't hold me to it but I am pretty sure there is an age limit on that to.

Now what I am saying here is not that they don't sell these things to young people of that age, just that it could get them into legal issues if they target an audiance commercially with items they arguably shouldn't have. That includes their metal miniatures . . . . . why would you recomend something only not to follow that recomendation?

As I have said, working on my knowledge and contacts still within the company (some friends you keep for life), the target audience is 14-18.


Don't play Naïve.
You modified the pun into an insult.

I am not playing Naive. It's a pun. An 'ass' isn't even an insult. I mean seriously I have already said I am 28, I think I could find more inventive ways of insulting you than attempting to twist a seriously straightforward pun. I have no intention of insulting you, for starters I don't even know who you are. Contrary to what you may want to read into this all I am doing is trying to challenge a stance that appears not to have any room for flexibility and an opinion which presents it's self as unfallable - not a good combo and admittedly I have a sort of evil temptation to try and take appart such arguments because I can see the cracks and if several people started to believe all of this and started to quote it around then we would loose the accuracy of the situation.


Sounds like you "didn't fit".

I am not sure whether that is infact a underhand insult, which to be fair totally sucks.

I can go into more detail about why I decided to resign my position if you want, I don't have anything to hide. One of the main reasons being that I was studying for my A-Levels and my manager didn't really value that saying that he didn't need A-Levels to get to where he got. I had asperations of going to university (which I did) and wasn't interested in going to headquaters to 'graduate'. I also wasn't interested in learning something called the 'ten commandments' which I found to be an insult in name due to my religion, plus the fact that I am dislexic and memorising the ten supposed steps to salespitch enlightenment really didn't enthiuse me. If you don't know how to meet and greet and converse with a customer I would guess they might be useful, but I am not a robot. When I resigned the manager said that he would always be open to me returning if the oppertunity arose. I have visited him in the various stores he has worked in since and have always got on with him - no bad air etc. Just one of those things that doesn't work out - and hey, I was but a kid at the time.



I was just mentioning that I was currently employed in the industry, in a creative capacity.

If I were a Green Stuff sculptor you'd probably have pointed to GW's Razorgors and said "Ha! You should admit that many GS sculptors are cack!"

So you're just trolling with this paragraph, frankly.

No actually I'm not. I wasn't being particularily clear but I shall be now. It's very easy on the internet to state this that and the other, but it's also just as easy to stick up a couple of links to the things you mention. If you have designed something then why not link to it?

Simply because it is open to interpretation. If you have designed something cool then share it, let us all celebrate your creations with you.

I didn't mean to belittle the work you have done just that to say some of my work has been published could mean anything from a letter to a magazine to a gaming article to a full blown piece in a national newspaper. And to be quite frank I have advised all of the young people I have had the pleasure of working with never to believe anything someone says on the internet as being 100% true, and can you blame me?

Unfortunately at this point you may want to hide your identity and not have a name linked to this account so I would actually understand why you don't want to reveal it, however please do at least humour my reaction and do not take it as a slur or insult, for which it was not intended.


This is all pretty self-evident stuff. If you're in a GW store playing a game then you're also acting as advertising for the company by showing games in progress.

The company wants those games being demonstrated to be ones that customers can pick up off the shelf and join in with.

And that's about all there is to it.

Couldn't agree more. All about repeat sales, sales focusing and investment returns.

Its actually good having discussions like these because it highlights things to people.

For me this represents what GW has become in the last ten years. Not some ugly beast as many suggest but just a hugely commercial beast. It's fast becoming the MacDonald's of the wargaming industry. If you want a fast game which will sit comfortably on the pallet and that won't vex you to much then it's great. If you want something to sink your teeth into a little more then it's perhaps not for you.

The Specialist games highlight this because they reflect a change in stance. Even when GW produced things like Talisman etc they knew they probably weren't going to sell as well or for as long and as steadily as their main core systems. However they were emersed in the hobby itself at that point. They were not a huge publicly listed company, they didn't have the share holders to deal with and most of their creativity game wise still stemmed from those who got the old ball rolling originally.

When you introduced people who own a stake in the company purely for investment terms you will loose that 'hobby' edge. Some of the parts which are 'fun' but not economic will be dropped. Other parts will be streamlined to encourage greater sales. It's the nature of capatalism and there was only so long that GW could keep growing and yet still maintain it's cottage industry roots.

For some of us that change will have been harder, the almost complete abandonment of the specialist games represents more than just cool games being thrown into the shadows but also one of the pieces of the old GW fading away. I dare say that like you say, a few exceptions may pop up from time to time but not with the same sort of feel to them.

I have to admit that as time progresses I find myself falling further out of love with GW, not because its any real fault of theirs, just that they don't quench my wargaming thirst anymore. Yes they are expensive, but in many ways they are worth that expense and for me its not the main or only factor.

Those beautiful little specialist games will however remain with me for a very long time to come and I will cherish them at every oppertunity (and possibly convert the rules so I can play Alien with them or Mad Max etc etc etc).

Chaos and Evil
07-09-2010, 00:03
Ok 5th ed 40k aside, the last two editions have seen an increase in streamlining of the core rules
So ignoring the last 5 years which have seen a huge increase in number of rules, GW have been decreasing the number of rules. :eyebrows:




Otherwise the most complex thing they have done is in terms of certain characters effecting the force organisation charts or giving their forces a bonus of a type.
Actually the most complicated thing they've done is giving basically every unit in WFB and 40k a unique special rule or special unique weapon. The number of rules and unique stats to memorise has grown exponentially in the last 5 years.

If White Dwarf has been saying the converse, it's been wrong, at best.



Try the glue as well, both the polycement and the super glue. Don't hold me to it but I am pretty sure there is an age limit on that to.
Nope.


That includes their metal miniatures . . . . . why would you recomend something only not to follow that recomendation?
GW stopped making metal miniatures with lead content specifically so that when the law changed they could continue to sell their metal models to children.


As I have said, working on my knowledge and contacts still within the company (some friends you keep for life), the target audience is 14-18.
Those people may believe the target audience is 14-18, but the style of rules systems and tone of written publications makes it obvious to anyone switched on that the intended age range is lower.


I am not playing Naive. It's a pun.
It was, right until you changed the wording.

Then pretended you didn't. :rolleyes:


I am not sure whether that is infact a underhand insult, which to be fair totally sucks.
I was quoting the GW training mantra. Apparently it went over your head.


No actually I'm not. I wasn't being particularily clear but I shall be now. It's very easy on the internet to state this that and the other, but it's also just as easy to stick up a couple of links to the things you mention. If you have designed something then why not link to it?
Not gonna compromise my privacy, sorry.


For me this represents what GW has become in the last ten years. Not some ugly beast as many suggest but just a hugely commercial beast. It's fast becoming the MacDonald's of the wargaming industry. If you want a fast game which will sit comfortably on the pallet and that won't vex you to much then it's great. If you want something to sink your teeth into a little more then it's perhaps not for you.
Completely agreed.

However, GW is doing just fine selling burgers to kids.

But they also know that kids don't like eating steak, which is why SG is a graveyard for dead games.

junglesnake
07-09-2010, 01:17
So ignoring the last 5 years which have seen a huge increase in number of rules, GW have been decreasing the number of rules. :eyebrows:

Pedantic I know, but two years. 5th edition 40k came out two years ago and the new edition of fantasy is upon us. 4th edition was not much of a change/improvement on 3rd.


Actually the most complicated thing they've done is giving basically every unit in WFB and 40k a unique special rule or special unique weapon. The number of rules and unique stats to memorise has grown exponentially in the last 5 years.

I think what they did with 3rd ed was to attempt to make specialis units specialist and basic units basic. However they are creeping back to the days of 2nd edition where like you say, each unit of each particular army could be rather more individual.

The thing that confuses me here is that on the one side you say that they are writing the rules for kids younger than 14 and then you say they are making the rules more complicated which in my mind wouldn't nesisarily make them as easy to pick up. Do you mean you feel they are simply adding a layer of detail that wasnt there - not nessisarily complexity? That's an interesting way of looking at it that's all.



GW stopped making metal miniatures with lead content specifically so that when the law changed they could continue to sell their metal models to children.

Yup. But you said that they are still not recomended to children under a certain age - 12 I believe. In which case their target audience cannot be 11-14 say because you are actively targeting an audience which you specifically identify its not suitable for.


It was, right until you changed the wording.

Then pretended you didn't. :rolleyes:

'Assumption my friend makes more of an ass out of you than me'

I am not pretending that I didn't do anything. That's what I said. Sure I said it makes more of an ass out of you than me - but then I didn't say it wasn't making me look like an ass, and to be fair I wasn't making an assumption. It was a play on words on a pun used to my advantage. Fair play if you ask me, I was actually calling you an ass, just said what you said was making you a bigger ass than me.


I was quoting the GW training mantra. Apparently it went over your head.

Well it would go over my head considering a) you didn't give a reference b) it could have referred to anything c) I already stated I didn't care much for any of the 'mantra' they fired at me on the frontline and I had far more important things to remember like how to date ancient greek vases for my A-Levels (after which much time and other space for remembering important things has happened, fiancee's birthday, our aniversary, stuff for the wedding, my pin number for my debit card etc etc etc). :D


Not gonna compromise my privacy, sorry.

Well I did sort of hand you that out card but it is also a rather predictable one. But as I am sure you can appreciate that means its pretty insubmitable in use in a debate. I could argue I own a small miniatures company and then refuse to share which one and give perfectly good reasons but then that's like saying I have a great CV but I am not going to show you.



However, GW is doing just fine selling burgers to kids.

But they also know that kids don't like eating steak, which is why SG is a graveyard for dead games.

For now yes. But like MacDonald's the bigger they get the more GW will find itself in the position it doesn't want to be, the larger public eye. I would say they are on the verge of being a household name and thats not something they are overly comfortable with in terms of it brings a lot of media attention. A journo might write a story about how Space Marines have facist elements to them and yet they are the icon the company promotes the most etc.

Its the reason GW have been asked but refused to allow their models to be used in some TV shows (happened whilst I was working there).

However when all is said and done they do understand that it costs more money to generate a new customer than it does to service an old one in a repeat/return sale so they do try to at least include the vets more in things these days hence the backward step in terms of miniatures. You can use old mini's in store again now and they have started to sculpt some of the older mrks of armour which pay homage to rogue trader era ideas. They may look cool to the new customers but the vets like them for the 'gaming' history behind them as much as the look.

Shamutanti
07-09-2010, 02:16
I can go into more detail about why I decided to resign my position if you want, I don't have anything to hide. One of the main reasons being that I was studying for my A-Levels and my manager didn't really value that saying that he didn't need A-Levels to get to where he got. I had asperations of going to university (which I did) and wasn't interested in going to headquaters to 'graduate'. I also wasn't interested in learning something called the 'ten commandments' which I found to be an insult in name due to my religion, plus the fact that I am dislexic and memorising the ten supposed steps to salespitch enlightenment really didn't enthiuse me. If you don't know how to meet and greet and converse with a customer I would guess they might be useful, but I am not a robot. When I resigned the manager said that he would always be open to me returning if the oppertunity arose. I have visited him in the various stores he has worked in since and have always got on with him - no bad air etc. Just one of those things that doesn't work out - and hey, I was but a kid at the time.

That's an almost perfect example of 'not fitting'.

Should of read the black book more (or got someone to read it to you).

GW games are aimed at the 11 through to the 14. Managers of stores are told to aim for that target and recruit kids within that bracket - additionally with the change of how introductory games are to be run (for they have changed tact. since 8th edition of Warhammer) they allow a scale up approach to be put in place without alienating watchers/potential intros BUT are not a reason to not focus upon said age rage.

There are, normally, 2 brackets of 'typical' GWers. The kids. The returnees.

GW recruits you when you're young. 11, 12, 14, you're infused by the hobby and the game. You love it and it's amazing. The staff are awesome and the environment/atmosphere is incredible. It's the place to be on a Saturday, it's the shop to hit on the holidays, it's the number one spot parents will head to on Xmas/Birthdays because of the personalised service of staff who know what they're on about and can give Lil Jim everything he needs in one drop off.

The seed is planted. The majority of kids stay in the hobby for 2ish years, give or take. But they know about it. They just generally get either a) frustrated due to lack of constant cash or b) discover the wonders of girls, drink, computer games and exams.

We see a drop off normally around 16-18. Very few kids stay in the hobby until there adult life. And, not being rude, but those that do, are often the socially 'retarded' amongst us, who struggled, for whatever reason, to connect with society (and no, Games Workshop is not a real society :P).

University hits, or late college, or something beyond apprenticeship. We have a routine and we know what goes in and what goes out, but we're bored. There's nothing to do and hobbys now are relatively thin on the ground. We think back to when we were kid. **** me Warhammer was cool. We drop into a GW, get another intro, experience the joy of it in a different light and frankly, we have our own cash. We come back into the hobby and carry on from there.

The most important thing though in this? Was when you were 12 years old and you discovered Warhammer. Regardless of whether your friends are into it now or not, when they were 12, they were like you. Those seeds and wants and desires can be met once older and we're far more focused.

It's not a hard concept to get hold of and many a manager will tell you that's the truth of the matter. In fact, it's what the retail tops explain to those in the rungs below.

Overlord Krycis
07-09-2010, 08:01
== Everything Shamutanti said ==

I completely agree and this was basically what I took from the "101" sessions, along with a lot more useful info.

However, I think the extensive debate being put forward by Chaos and Evil and junglesnake has gotten us off topic (even if it has raised some good points).

OT: As I understand it, there is no "policy", as the decision to ban SGs from stores has more "filtered-down" through management rather than being an official announcement through the Astronomican or email.
This would also explain why some stores (and countries) are still quite happy to allow them.

Chaos and Evil
07-09-2010, 10:04
Pedantic I know, but two years. 5th edition 40k came out two years ago and the new edition of fantasy is upon us. 4th edition was not much of a change/improvement on 3rd.
Yup I was mixing back in the codexes and army books again.

I'd put about 5 years ago as when they started to change the army book design ethos to push "character" at the expense of tactical complexity.



The thing that confuses me here is that on the one side you say that they are writing the rules for kids younger than 14 and then you say they are making the rules more complicated which in my mind wouldn't nesisarily make them as easy to pick up.
Kids love all those gnarly details.

Giving a certain character a special type of power gauntlet, or a certain unit a special kind of missile launcher, that's inspiring to a kid.

And if "knowing all the rules well" is tantamount to "being able to play the game well", then kids can play the game just by learning all the rules. Simples.

Do you mean you feel they are simply adding a layer of detail that wasnt there - not nessisarily complexity? That's an interesting way of looking at it that's all.
The game is getting no more tactically complex through all of the extra rules they've been adding, yes. It's getting less tactically complex, if anything.

At the same time, they're adding layer after layer of extra rules to learn.


Yup. But you said that they are still not recomended to children under a certain age - 12 I believe. In which case their target audience cannot be 11-14 say because you are actively targeting an audience which you specifically identify its not suitable for.
And noone's ever tried to sell a product to a target audience younger than that the law would prefer them to sell to... oh wait that's really common!



Well I did sort of hand you that out card but it is also a rather predictable one.
Still not going to give a public forum means to track me down IRL.


However when all is said and done they do understand that it costs more money to generate a new customer than it does to service an old one in a repeat/return sale so they do try to at least include the vets more in things these days hence the backward step in terms of miniatures. You can use old mini's in store again now and they have started to sculpt some of the older mrks of armour which pay homage to rogue trader era ideas. They may look cool to the new customers but the vets like them for the 'gaming' history behind them as much as the look.
Still, at the same time as they're harking back to the original aesthetic, the rules are becoming ever more child-intended.






That's an almost perfect example of 'not fitting'.
Yup. :-)

Considering he "didn't fit" I'm not surprised he doesn't get what the target age group of GW games are either.

In fact, basically everything Shamutanti says above rings true to me.

I'd just note that the "returnees" are relatively rare, maybe only a few percent of those that once played with toy soldiers return to play with toy soldiers again in their early 20's. But it's certainly a noticable trend as those returnees tend to stick around longer than the ever-transient kids.


When you also consider that it's generally only those "returnees" who get interested in Specialist Games, you can see why GW bans them!!

Abaraxas
07-09-2010, 11:27
In Australia (Sydney) the GW tables instore are WHFB and WH40k-not aware of there being a "no specialsist games" policy as such but I wouldnt expect to be able to commandeer their tables for Blood Bowl or Necromunda when theyll usually have the latest editions of the 2 warhammers on the table.

junglesnake
07-09-2010, 12:49
Right, rather than listen to two people's opinion's and thoughts I have just called GW customer services and asked them what their target age group is for their core games. Response:

'The games are recomended for children and young people aged 12+. However we try to target around 19.'

I posed as an interested store owner who was looking into expanding their stock and was inquiring to see if they met my average customers needs/age group etc.

So perhaps what we are seeing here is a difference between their in store approach and the actual age group intended.

I am also pretty sure that in some places in the country it will differ depending on the transitory nature of the location. For example where I am in Norwich there are tons of students (the game society even set up their own shop) and this tends to offset those that leave to go to uni elsewhere.

I am not trying to state what is right or wrong here but just trying to understand how two different opinions can be so vastly different.

As for the 'didn't fit in' please drop it, I completely accepted that and said why, not sure why that needed confirming?!!! Obviously it appears that Chaos and Evil is trying to do a little bit of niggling but to be honest I now work in a job where I get to help them and make a difference to their and their families lives. Not only is it rewarding but its also a great challenge. Bothered that I didn't fit in? And it has little or nothing to do with this thread - so finito.

'Considering he "didn't fit" I'm not surprised he doesn't get what the target age group of GW games are either.'

That's a very blatent insult, nice. Well done. I was infact there long enough to be told who I should aim a sale at etc etc etc and just because it doesn't fit into what your idea of the target audience is does not mean what I am saying is a lie. So yeah, thanks for accusing me of lying.


'In fact, basically everything Shamutanti says above rings true to me.'

Well it probably would because he actually backs things up with facts for the most part.

'I'd just note that the "returnees" are relatively rare, maybe only a few percent of those that once played with toy soldiers return to play with toy soldiers again in their early 20's. But it's certainly a noticable trend as those returnees tend to stick around longer than the ever-transient kids.'

Right. If we are talking about in store you would be right. The number of returnee's in the UK is reletively low comparatively speaking. Wargaming in general does not have that huge a following in the UK when compared to other hobbies etc. However I do remember being told what happened in America and how the internet has a different clientel to the stores. Their webstores get more return customers along with other independant shops and web sources where people will go to get things slightly cheaper or from a more local shop. GW knew when I worked there, that the key to the stores was to get new people through the door. At a boardroom level they make more money from getting other shops to sell their stuff than they get from selling their stuff in their own shops. No rent, no staff fees etc.

'When you also consider that it's generally only those "returnees" who get interested in Specialist Games, you can see why GW bans them!!'

Like I said, some specialist games were designed for existing customers and some for exposure in other markets (boardgames, CCGs etc) which tended to have a younger than usual target audience due to the nature of the markets they were intended for. Of the ones you talk about Mordheim was probably the last in terms of in a box and that was ten or so years ago now.

At the end of the day that's why they are not supported in store. The basic rule mechanics have changed so much since then. We have been through two editions of 40k and three of fantasy. If the basic core mechanics were still compatable then it would be less arguous but having to change different sets of rules everytime the core ones change is a cost as well.

Chaos and Evil
07-09-2010, 13:07
'...we try to target around 19.'
I'd say you got sold a line by a salesman there, chap.


So perhaps what we are seeing here is a difference between their in store approach and the actual age group intended.
Then why are all the Core Game rule systems so obviously child-intended?


As for the 'didn't fit in' please drop it, I completely accepted that and said why, not sure why that needed confirming?!!!
"I am not sure whether that is infact a underhand insult, which to be fair totally sucks. "

Sure, you totally accepted it. :rolleyes:


'Considering he "didn't fit" I'm not surprised he doesn't get what the target age group of GW games are either.'

That's a very blatent insult, nice. Well done. I was infact there long enough to be told who I should aim a sale at etc etc etc and just because it doesn't fit into what your idea of the target audience is does not mean what I am saying is a lie. So yeah, thanks for accusing me of lying.
Okay, now you're just flat out twisting my words. Trolling, in other words.

I'm done with this.

*exits thread*

yabbadabba
07-09-2010, 13:11
Christ, will you two get a room :D

Right we have definitive answer on this one from GW Management to use as confirmation or leverage. The OP, Runepriest Ridcully, obviously doesn't give an ahrse about the thread and in my opinion has just be exercising a bit of an immaturely presented gripe about GW over the past few weeks across a number of threads.

So until we get a definitive answer and something tangible to work on, why don't we walk away from this one?

junglesnake
07-09-2010, 15:53
I'd say you got sold a line by a salesman there, chap.

Nice. Yeah, ofcourse. So now GW staff members are told to lie to commercial customers as well now . . . . great!




Okay, now you're just flat out twisting my words. Trolling, in other words.

I'm done with this.

*exits thread*

What can I say. So far I have quoted magazines, recognised web sources and even called GW customer services and spoken to their retail department just to check whether I was on the wrong tack.

So far you have presented nothing but your own thoughts and opinions which you have clearly indicated are far superior not to my own thoughts - but the facts that sit out there for everyone to see.

When I said you were accusing me of lying you need to consider what you are saying. I am telling you what I was told in my time working at GW and by friends who remain there. You have told me that that is wrong and not accurate. Considering it is straight from the horses mouth it's hard to conceive what you are suggesting other than I am simply making up what I have said - or lying.

In fairness this all rumbled on when you took offence to at least two of us pointing out that a skirmish game is infact a type of wargame. Something that again you have refused to accept when the weight of evidence is hugely against you.

You want to discuss stuff, fine. I don't mind being quized, hell even pushed but when the other person is less than forthcoming I am sure you can understand that a complete lack of evidence is going to nark people off.

Brother Loki
08-09-2010, 12:04
Junglesnake. What type of store did you say you owned?

If it was a comics store, hobby store or model shop, that might be why they said 19. If you said a toy store I'd expect them to tell you 11-14. The person you spoke to was trying to sell to you, so I'd expect them to tell you what you want to hear.

I'd also say that they probably have a different market through independent stockists than through GW stores. Both the Hobbycraft and Toymaster chains sell GW products (or have done in the past) but they have wildly differing target markets.