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angrySCORCH62
24-08-2010, 18:05
Hi, just wonderings, Abbadon is now on his 13th assault against the Imperium, you'd think that after 12 failed attempts he would be replaced, also why isn't a DP at the head of The Black Legion considering their power?

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 18:08
Why do you assume they all failed? Because you are utterly wrong in that respect. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Crusades)

angrySCORCH62
24-08-2010, 18:11
Well I thought it'd be a safe assumtion since the false emperor is still worshiped and the Imperium hasn't fallen under the command of chaos, please if he was succsseful enlighten me mate

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 18:18
Take for example Abaddon's first Black Crusade. During it he was lead by a certain gold skinned Daemon to Drach'nyen.

His 12th was in part the Gothic War, which brought an entire sector down on it's knees.

The 13th was responsible for the destruction of 2 planets in the Cadian system and the narrowing of the "safe route" around the Cadian Gate.

Doesn't sound like a failure to me.

angrySCORCH62
24-08-2010, 18:24
Take for example Abaddon's first Black Crusade. During it he was lead by a certain gold skinned Daemon to Drach'nyen.

His 12th was in part the Gothic War, which brought an entire sector down on it's knees.

The 13th was responsible for the destruction of 2 planets in the Cadian system and the narrowing of the "safe route" around the Cadian Gate.QUOTE]

ahh right, were they his objectives? I don't have much knowlage on these things or are they any books on it?

[QUOTE=Grimtuff;4937014]Doesn't sound like a failure to me.

That's in they eye of the beholder don't you think? Some might think that nothing less than the destruction of the Imperium a failure

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 18:27
ahh right, were they his objectives? I don't have much knowlage on these things or are they any books on it?


2 things:

Follow the link in my first post
What is the name of the faction Abaddon leads? That is their objective. ;)

Denise
24-08-2010, 18:36
Hi, just wonderings, Abbadon is now on his 13th assault against the Imperium, you'd think that after 12 failed attempts he would be replaced, also why isn't a DP at the head of The Black Legion considering their power?

I totally agree.

I like the 40k universe but there are some big examples of very bad story telling and this is one of them. In all of their "bad guy" books the big scary bad guy comes really close to wiping out the good guys, and then they just inexplicably fail. In Abaddon's case he failed 12 times, which just makes him more Bad.

As Grimtuff said, they try to make it seem like they got so close and killed so many good guys that it was actually a success, but nothing is different and the good guys won.... Depending on how you measure success, I would consider that a major failure. GW obviously wants it to look like he is all the more dangerous because of his many near-victories, but if you really look at things, they are just failures.

Additionally, chaos space marines don't seem like the most forgiving bunch, you would think that they would have just caught on that Abbaddon is not going to win, and they should just replace him.

Merus
24-08-2010, 18:36
Hi, just wonderings, Abbadon is now on his 13th assault against the Imperium, you'd think that after 12 failed attempts he would be replaced, also why isn't a DP at the head of The Black Legion considering their power?

I'd argue that Abaddon is a lot more powerful than most Daemon Princes; but as for him being replaced..

Spoiler alert - the following is the ending to the Warhammer novel, Dark Creed.


'Will the Black Legion seek amends?'
Glancing sideways, he saw that Erebus was smiling.
It was a mocking and sinister sight, and Marduk's unease redoubled.
'Abaddon seek amends against us? No,' said Erebus.
'But he will not be pleased. It will raise his suspicion. We will have to be more... circumspect in the coming days.'
Marduk felt like a child, not understanding half of what Erebus implied.
'There are some who feel that Abaddon is not worthy of bearing the title of Warmaster any longer,' said Erebus.
Marduk's eyes widened in shock.
'Ekodas's death leaves a gap on the Council,' said Erebus, and Marduk looked at him in surprise. Erebus's face gave away nothing. His eyes were as cold and dead as those of a corpse. 'I want someone that I know I can trust to take his place.'
Marduk's heart was beating hard in his chest.
'I can trust you, can't I, Marduk?' said Erebus, coming to an abrupt halt and turning towards the Dark Apostle. His voice was silken with threat and promise.
'Implicitly, my lord,' said Marduk, dropping to one knee. 'My life is yours.'
'Good,' said Erebus, laying his hand upon Marduk's crown in a casual benediction. 'There is much work to be done.'

Joewrightgm
24-08-2010, 18:36
I think Abaddon is much like any warrior chosen by the four Gods: as long as their mandates are carried out, slaughter and Chaos is spread in their wake, even militarily 'unsuccessful' ventures are considered victories.

The thing I think people must realize is that victory for the Chaos Gods does not always equate to military goals. Sometimes the violence and sacrifice of the enemy and your own forces is enough.

Also, in the old Chaos codex, it was said that before the 13th Black Crusade the ascension to a demon prince had been laid at his feet 12 times or more. The reason he fights is not to become a distant figure fighting on the astral plains of the Warp, but to be there when the Emperor is cut from his thrown and tossed screaming from its summit.

He probably has had plenty of usurpers try and oust him, but when you are marked by all four Gods with a demon sword that can smash an adamantium gate to splinters, I reckon it'd be next to impossible to do, as his continued tenure as Warmaster attests.

Just my thoughts. I hope Aaron Dembski-Bowden gets his shot at writing Black Legion and Abaddon, because I think it would be off the chain.

angrySCORCH62
24-08-2010, 18:39
2 things:

Follow the link in my first post
What is the name of the faction Abaddon leads? That is their objective. ;)

I've read that page, it told me how the Black Crusades are formed, it also mentioned Abbadons but not a lot, most were just "beginning of the 3rd Black Crusade. " or 5th or whatever I didn't get anything about objectives or if they were victories except the second which it mentioned was a failure.

I just assumed that after 12 attacks and not over running the Cadia sector they would have replaced him?

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 18:41
Additionally, chaos space marines don't seem like the most forgiving bunch, you would think that they would have just caught on that Abbaddon is not going to win, and they should just replace him.

Abaddon is a clone son of Horus and a physical link to their primarch. He is a figurehead for the legion armed with the very weapon that tore apart another Primarch.

He has a network of many other luietenants and remains mortal as not to be a puppet of the Gods, which is what he would become is elevated to Daemonhood.

angrySCORCH62
24-08-2010, 18:42
I think Abaddon is much like any warrior chosen by the four Gods: as long as their mandates are carried out, slaughter and Chaos is spread in their wake, even militarily 'unsuccessful' ventures are considered victories.

The thing I think people must realize is that victory for the Chaos Gods does not always equate to military goals. Sometimes the violence and sacrifice of the enemy and your own forces is enough.

Also, in the old Chaos codex, it was said that before the 13th Black Crusade the ascension to a demon prince had been laid at his feet 12 times or more. The reason he fights is not to become a distant figure fighting on the astral plains of the Warp, but to be there when the Emperor is cut from his thrown and tossed screaming from its summit.

He probably has had plenty of usurpers try and oust him, but when you are marked by all four Gods with a demon sword that can smash an adamantium gate to splinters, I reckon it'd be next to impossible to do, as his continued tenure as Warmaster attests.

Just my thoughts. I hope Aaron Dembski-Bowden gets his shot at writing Black Legion and Abaddon, because I think it would be off the chain.

That makes sense mate

sorry Merus I can't read your quote I plan on reading Dark Creed after I've finished the first two books. Thanks though.

Denise
24-08-2010, 18:45
I think Abaddon is much like any warrior chosen by the four Gods: as long as their mandates are carried out, slaughter and Chaos is spread in their wake, even militarily 'unsuccessful' ventures are considered victories.

The thing I think people must realize is that victory for the Chaos Gods does not always equate to military goals. Sometimes the violence and sacrifice of the enemy and your own forces is enough.


I think this is very plausible, but aside from making the Chaos Gods happy, I would think that he would have to keep his troops happy too.

I am sure that most of the cult marines would fully accept random slaughter as victory, but I don't think that is really the motivation for the majority of the chaos space marines.

Initially they seemed to turn to chaos for more political aims, to try and conquer the universe. It would make sense for this to still be, more or less, the goal for most of the chaos space marines.

Freak Ona Leash
24-08-2010, 18:49
Abaddon has not failed. You do not fell a tree in one stroke and the Imperium is a great (albeit rotten) tree. Each of the Black Crusades brings the Imperium closer to its inevitable fall. The 13th one has just about annihilated the Cadian Gate. With a stronghold in the mortal realms (ie. not the Eye of Terror) Abaddon will be bale to prosecute his war of vengeance far more easily.

To say that simply because he didn't destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop he is a failure just says to me that you don't think things through very well.

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 18:52
I think Abaddon is much like any warrior chosen by the four Gods: as long as their mandates are carried out, slaughter and Chaos is spread in their wake, even militarily 'unsuccessful' ventures are considered victories.


Exactly. Remember how the Chaos players went about their business in the EOT campaign? Utterly ragging a planet leaving it in tatters and moving onto another. The Imperial players pulled the results back up to stable levels and Chaos came in and defiled it again.

Not the most militarily sound logic but in doing so it got rid of St. Joseman's hope in the system.


Same goes for many of the previous Black Crusades. A few were just a cover for Abby finding things like the Hand of Darkness (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hand_of_Darkness), which was used to activate the Blackstone Fortresses.

Merus
24-08-2010, 19:01
sorry Merus I can't read your quote I plan on reading Dark Creed after I've finished the first two books. Thanks though.

No sweat, they're great books. Some of the better writing done for 40K.

I only posted the entire ending to give you context of what he's saying; but I can tell you without ruining the ending that Erebus makes note that 'certain people' feel that Abaddon is unfit for the title of Warmaster any longer, and that there are plans to move against him.

Obviously we don't know how far up this goes, or if it will be advanced along at all in the next Chaos codex. I just know that Erebus is not someone to take lightly. ;)

angrySCORCH62
24-08-2010, 19:05
I see, does Erebus himself doubt the warmaster or is he just informing someone of it?

Anyhow thanks for not spoiling it mate.

Grimtuff
24-08-2010, 19:07
No sweat, they're great books. Some of the better writing done for 40K.


In future put in spoiler tags please.

Like this. ;)

Dragoon King
24-08-2010, 19:12
Only a fool would challenge him. IMHO he's more powerful than even Horus. Besides, Daemon Princes can only operate so far from the Eye of Terror or a warp storm, correct? They wouldn't fair any better, not even the Primarch DPs. Abby, however, has shrewdly turned down Daemonhood. His motives could be interpeted as almost contradictory to the Chaos gods. They probably don't care who rules the galaxy, as long as their incomprehensible whims are met. As long as there's slaughter, Khorne is happy. As long as there is decay and pestilience Nurgle is still jovial. I'm sure there's enough depravity already to keep Slaanesh satisfied, and why would Tzeentch want the Imperium to fall, no fun in that. Besides, his "failures" aren't Abby's fault. Even he can't control all of the forces of Chaos at every moment in a campaign. Now I'm not saying that Abby will eventually destroy the Imperium. But he is its most dangerous opponent by far. If he ever does make it to the Emperor, he will not hesitate as did Horus. And don't give me a bunch of garbage that the Emperor could easily slay him. Abby will rip him apart, we all know what Horus did to him, and like I said, Abby is even more powerful. Something tells me that he's more than just a clone son......Also, I'm betting Abby don't see the Black Crusades as failures, only the Imperium does.

Col. Tartleton
24-08-2010, 19:19
I'm pretty sure Abaddon (he hasn't been in charge of them all) has won or drawn every Crusade he's launched. Its like a 20 step self improvement program. He's on phase 13. He hasn't won, but he's improved quite a bit.

He's been building power steadily. Rome was not built in a day. You try taking a few thousand hardened veterans who respect you, many thousands more who don't respect you, and millions of followers who will die for you against billions who seek to destroy you.

Abaddon is the underdog in the fight. However as said by Dragoon King, Abaddon is probably greater now then Horus. His basic stats are comparable and his gear is better...

Horus had four clones to my knowledge. Abaddon, Aximand, Torgaddon, and Sejanus. His original Mournival (whom I just realized are based on the Canopic sons of Horus). Talk about self aggrandizement. "My four closest advisors are my clones, the Sons of Horus." Awesome.

Merus
24-08-2010, 19:24
Only a fool would challenge him.

Erebus is no fool.


And don't give me a bunch of garbage that the Emperor could easily slay him. Abby will rip him apart, we all know what Horus did to him, and like I said, Abby is even more powerful.

I don't think the Emperor would be doing much in the way of combat, given his current condition.. :eyebrows: However, if you recall the battle between Horus and the Emperor - the only reason the Emperor took as much damage as he did is because he made the mistake of trying to redeem Horus. He could have used his Emperor quality "mind-bullets" to erase Horus' soul from the get-go, if he had been motivated to.

You're making the mistake of trying to turn your opinion into undisputed fact. A dangerous route.

Damage,Inc.
24-08-2010, 20:04
Abaddon's like that friend that hangs around with you and has the great party ideas that always turn out to be not so great. This is the guy that everyone follows because he "knows where the best parties are, man" and always ends up taking you all on a drunken foot march across the city looking for something better.

Abbie's the kind of dude that shows up, promises to buy shots, and then gets you into a fight just for fun while betting on the outcome.

Lord_Crull
24-08-2010, 22:02
Hi, just wonderings, Abbadon is now on his 13th assault against the Imperium, you'd think that after 12 failed attempts he would be replaced, also why isn't a DP at the head of The Black Legion considering their power?

What failed attempts? We don't even know what Abbadon's actual objectives are for each Black Crusade. The only prior Black Crusades with enough information that we have are the 1st and the 12th really. In the first Abbadon was only turned back at the loss of a Primarch (Dorn) and in the 12th Abbadon suceeded in his objectives (Getting the Blackstones for the 12th, the rest of the Gothic sector became irevelant after he got his hands on a pair of Blackstones)

We don't even know what Abbadon is trying to do. (The 3.5 Chaos Codex even says some of his ''black crusades'' are actually raids by elite companies of Black Legionaries.)

Anyone who thinks that the Imperium can be destroyed in a single Black Crusade is a fool.. The Cadian Sector is the second most heavily fortified place in the galaxy after Terra and the Imperium places it's key strengths there just to contain Abbadon.

Without information about what Abbadon's actual plans or objectives are I really can't say wheter he has ''failed'' or not.

Col. Tartleton
24-08-2010, 22:08
Abaddon's like that friend that hangs around with you and has the great party ideas that always turn out to be not so great. This is the guy that everyone follows because he "knows where the best parties are, man" and always ends up taking you all on a drunken foot march across the city looking for something better.

Abbie's the kind of dude that shows up, promises to buy shots, and then gets you into a fight just for fun while betting on the outcome.

I think I know that guy.

Mannimarco
24-08-2010, 22:09
If you dont know that guy its because you are that guy.

ehlijen
24-08-2010, 22:28
Plus, maybe the chaos gods just can't agree on one single champion to replace him. Everytime one suggests one, the other 3 start fiddling awkwardly and insist that abbaddon isn't really that bad despite each having themselves suggested someone else just the week before...

Askari
24-08-2010, 22:36
It's been said already, but I'll repeat it.

Abaddon has never failed a Crusade

One Black Crusade had the sole goal of acquiring Drach'nyen. He found it. ???. Profit.
13th Black Crusade was meant to open up the Cadian Gate for future incursions.... Chaos is still on Cadia, success!

If he had the objective "Sack Terra, Kill Emperor" from day one, then he'd have been an idiot, even Horus didn't manage that with the element of surprise on his side.

Bookwrak
24-08-2010, 23:00
The problem the OP always has in threads like this, as Angryscorch so neatly demonstrated, is the mistaken idea that not only did Abbadon lead every Black Crusade, but that the goal of each was was taking over the galaxy. So far he's done a remarkably thorough job of getting what he wanted done.

Dragoon King
25-08-2010, 07:52
Erebus is no fool.



I don't think the Emperor would be doing much in the way of combat, given his current condition.. :eyebrows: However, if you recall the battle between Horus and the Emperor - the only reason the Emperor took as much damage as he did is because he made the mistake of trying to redeem Horus. He could have used his Emperor quality "mind-bullets" to erase Horus' soul from the get-go, if he had been motivated to.

You're making the mistake of trying to turn your opinion into undisputed fact. A dangerous route.

Your right, but dang it I've got strong opinions on Abby. The mind bullets were what I was thinking of. I doubt even those would work on Abby. But then again the Emperor did destroy a whole star system with psychic powers, correct? I don't know, I still say if Abby gets close to Terra, the Imperium is toast. I still say anyone (including Erebus) is foolish for even thinking about trying to challenge him. Abby himself wouldn't even have to dish out the punishment on those who question his leadership, I'm sure they are those who still carry out his orders unhesitatingly and still regard him with awe and reverence. I'm betting this is the case with the majority of the most powerful minions of Chaos, else he would have been overthrown already. Then again, it's pure speculation on my part, lol.:D

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-08-2010, 08:55
I don't see or know of any evidence that would truly suggest that Abaddon is more powerful than Horus was at his zenith. At the end of the day, Abaddon is still an Astartes and Horus was still a Primarch.

I also believe that Abaddon hasn't 'failed' as badly as many make him out to have done. He's had specific named goals for several of them, and has had to assess and overcome difficulties the likes of which Horus never had to face (whose success was directly due to, in part, his position as Warmaster of the entire Imperium and not just of Chaos, until everyone got on the same page about his betrayal).

Morollan
25-08-2010, 09:44
I don't see or know of any evidence that would truly suggest that Abaddon is more powerful than Horus was at his zenith. At the end of the day, Abaddon is still an Astartes and Horus was still a Primarch.

This.

I have absolutely no doubt that Abaddon is still only a pale imitation of Horus at the height of the Warmaster's power. Both are champions of all 4 Ruinous Powers. Both have terminator armour. Both have the Talon of Horus. Abaddon has the daemon weapons but Horus was giving those out like candy during the heresy so I guess he doesn't really need one. And Abaddon is not a Primarch.

Aiwass
25-08-2010, 10:09
We don't know the Abbadon's objectives, so we don't know if he has failed in some crusade. Beside this, Abby is not even closer to the Horus strenght, the most powerful of the primarch, that picked Sanguinius and turned it into a jumble of meat. As Dominatus said, Abbadon still an astartes.

Carlos
25-08-2010, 10:50
Erebus is no fool.

Correct me if im wrong but wasnt Erebus actually responsible for the Heresy in the first place, what with planting the warrior lodges in the Lunar Wolves and then using the Anathame to injure Horus to he would be taken to Davin and manipulated by the chaos gods?

Its called the Horus Heresy but really he was just a pawn. Since the collapse of the legions as we know them and the old alliances it seems that Abaddon is not so gullible though. Heck, he bullies daemons into giving him information in the Necron codex ffs.

Brother Kite
25-08-2010, 11:51
I think both sides are at somewhat of a stand still but power shifts easier to the side of chaos. As in all wathammer chaos is always present and often can drag the biggest following because it promises what the Emperor doesnt he offers slavery you believe in him or the omnisiaah or be a hertic but chaos promises freedom once the galaxy has bent to its will. Now im new to the 40k world but ive gathered what info i can, so far im a big adeptus astartes fan, but lets be honest general population and IG turn to chaos on a whim somtimes abbadon will not be pushed back forever because he gains almost as many followers as he loses.

However the Space marines i believe will not be pushed ethier, both fight hard and victories whether small or large happen on both sides. As for abaddon becoming a daemon prince well thats a big weakness hes put on himself should he come across Grey knights who are doctorined with pure faith in the emperor and can use such faith as a psychic abbility (i read in the grey knights omnibus "the holocaust.") their prayers have daemons screaming in pain not to mention the fact they carry the nemesis weapons all blessed, so forgive me if im wrong like i said im new to warhammer but abaddon would do better as he is now rarther than becoming a daemon prince who cant stand pure unadultered faith.

On a side note in the books ive read the daemons always seem to have a chaos astartes whooping there asses in some way it like the chaos god's are saying welcome to chaos have a free daemon slave.

Col. Dash
25-08-2010, 12:13
He is not out there to win, he is out there to cause death and destruction in the name of the gods. Now some Legions might not see it that way(IW, NL) and have their own agendas but the smaller cult legions are fanatic in their loyalty to do their gods bidding.

If Chaos manages to win, whats left? Xenos? Slaanesh would be happy about the eldar getting a beating, no one would care about the Tau since they dont appear in the warp. Nids are shadows in the warp and both them and Necrons are pretty much mindless creatures so there is no emotion. Orks, I have no idea of chaos's view towards orks. But if the Imperium is beaten then there really wouldnt be much left for chaos to do, no new emotion to power the cause. Therefore i think intentionally the chaos gods do not want to win.

NL have their own agenda and do not seem to care for being entangled in Abaddons ambitions.
AL we still havent figured out if they are good or bad.
IW They seem to be above this chaos thing, but not with the hatred of it the NL have. As to their agenda, there really isnt enough info out there to figure one out.

WB and BL seem to still be in bed with each other with the WB stringing the BL along while the BL thinks it is in charge. The four cult armies are just happy to be there with whatever Abaddon decides to do. He just points his fingers and off they go.

abasio
25-08-2010, 13:06
I think the only person who thinks that Abbadon is a failure is Abbadon himself.
For the chaos powers he has spread more chaos and mayhem than anyone else so they must be pleased with him. Don't think that chaos wants the fall of the imperium, that would weaken chaos as the imperium is one of the biggest (unknowing) worshippers of it.

I reckon if Abbadon ever succeeded then he'd be turned into spawn.

angrySCORCH62
25-08-2010, 13:14
I think the only person who thinks that Abbadon is a failure is Abbadon himself.
For the chaos powers he has spread more chaos and mayhem than anyone else so they must be pleased with him. Don't think that chaos wants the fall of the imperium, that would weaken chaos as the imperium is one of the biggest (unknowing) worshippers of it.

I reckon if Abbadon ever succeeded then he'd be turned into spawn.

Bummer for him, still at least he will always have something to attack.

Are there other exits from the eye other than Cadia that he sends his fleets through.

Iracundus
25-08-2010, 13:19
What failed attempts? We don't even know what Abbadon's actual objectives are for each Black Crusade. The only prior Black Crusades with enough information that we have are the 1st and the 12th really. In the first Abbadon was only turned back at the loss of a Primarch (Dorn) and in the 12th Abbadon suceeded in his objectives (Getting the Blackstones for the 12th, the rest of the Gothic sector became irevelant after he got his hands on a pair of Blackstones)

We don't even know what Abbadon is trying to do. (The 3.5 Chaos Codex even says some of his ''black crusades'' are actually raids by elite companies of Black Legionaries.)


While I would be the last to argue Abaddon is a total failure, neither is he a total success.

We do know what he was trying to do with his 12th Black Crusade, as documented in the BFG rulebook. He was trying to gain all 6 Blackstone Fortresses, as they could combine their output and power together. Three of them together was enough to make a star go nova (a power he used upon an Imperial system's star during the Gothic War). He ultimately failed in this strategic objective, having at most secured 3, then losing 1 before retreating back to the Eye after having expended years of effort and many starships. At best, that 2 out of 6 is a consolation prize. While not a total bust, it was certainly far from a success.

Col. Tartleton
25-08-2010, 14:36
This.

I have absolutely no doubt that Abaddon is still only a pale imitation of Horus at the height of the Warmaster's power. Both are champions of all 4 Ruinous Powers. Both have terminator armour. Both have the Talon of Horus. Abaddon has the daemon weapons but Horus was giving those out like candy during the heresy so I guess he doesn't really need one. And Abaddon is not a Primarch.

Abaddon is some sort of hybrid-clone. Just like the rest of the Mournival. Abaddon is wearing the same TDA the same lightning claw-fist and has an Epic sword. He's then got ten milleniums give or take of chaotic power build up.

But then he sort of failed against Eldrad in combat. But that was a plot device. I'd still rank Eldrad up their with the Emperor in terms of zany psychic powers (if not world shaping superman power)

Lord_Crull
25-08-2010, 15:21
While I would be the last to argue Abaddon is a total failure, neither is he a total success.

We do know what he was trying to do with his 12th Black Crusade, as documented in the BFG rulebook. He was trying to gain all 6 Blackstone Fortresses, as they could combine their output and power together. Three of them together was enough to make a star go nova (a power he used upon an Imperial system's star during the Gothic War). He ultimately failed in this strategic objective, having at most secured 3, then losing 1 before retreating back to the Eye after having expended years of effort and many starships. At best, that 2 out of 6 is a consolation prize. While not a total bust, it was certainly far from a success.

I would argue it is. Even ia single Blackstone Fortress is more precious than the starships Abbadon expended in the effort to get them. After all, starships eventually can be rebuilt. Blackstones are one of a kind.

And from what I can understand he only needed two anyway to begin his 13th.

ryng_sting
25-08-2010, 18:24
Abaddon isn't a clone, as per Horus Rising.

The goal of BC XIII was to breach the Cadian Gate. He ravaged the near entirety of the system, but Cadia itself still stands, and the Imperial Fleet is keeping him in place.

Dragoon King
25-08-2010, 18:25
Good insights all, but the question is why is he still in charge, if some Chaos factions see him as a failure? I think the answer to this is: Whose gonna challenge him? Honestly, you'd have to have a death wish. Abby doesn't lead through charisma or political intrigue or whispering sweet nothings into his subject's ears. He rules through power and fear. And you gotta admit, he's pretty darn powerful and frightening.

Freak Ona Leash
25-08-2010, 18:53
Good insights all, but the question is why is he still in charge, if some Chaos factions see him as a failure? I think the answer to this is: Whose gonna challenge him? Honestly, you'd have to have a death wish. Abby doesn't lead through charisma or political intrigue or whispering sweet nothings into his subject's ears. He rules through power and fear. And you gotta admit, he's pretty darn powerful and frightening.

This is a good point. It is obvious from books such as the Word Bearers trilogy and Soul Hunter that there are factions of Chaos (or Chaos-allied-scary-bastards in the case of the Night Lords) that see him as a failure or at least, not worthy to bear the same title as his gene-father.

In the Word Bearer's case, they might have a chance. Maybe. If the Eye of Terror blinks for a moment of two ;) The Night Lords on the other hand, are more similar to vengeful mercenaries at this point. At least those who haven't gone insane under Acerbus or some other yahoo-daemon-prince.

angrySCORCH62
25-08-2010, 18:56
Do all of the Black Legion follow him faithfully or are their wispers of discontent among the them as well?

Freak Ona Leash
25-08-2010, 18:58
Being power-hungry traitors devoted to the Ruinous Powers, I would bet there are those who either wish to usurp his position or simply wish to do their own thing rather than listen to an Astartes who pretends he is heir to a long-dead Primarch.

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 19:18
Do all of the Black Legion follow him faithfully or are their wispers of discontent among the them as well?


Being power-hungry traitors devoted to the Ruinous Powers, I would bet there are those who either wish to usurp his position or simply wish to do their own thing rather than listen to an Astartes who pretends he is heir to a long-dead Primarch.

Personally, I've never liked this image of the Black Legion. This is what leads to things like the ridiculous description of Chaos Terminators in the current codex. They sound more like Snidely Whiplash than ruthless, trained, superhuman killing machines in the best man-made armor in the galaxy. I also don't like the idea that Chaos Space Marines are all ambitious and willing to stab one another in the back as often as Skaven.

Remember that the Chaos Space Marines are first and foremost warriors. They respect strength. They respect power. They respect war records and victories, even amongst their enemies. They fight with a purpose, whether that is to destroy the Imperium, gain demonhood, cause destruction, or the joy of the fight itself. Of course some have ambition and see themselves as superior leaders and see assassination and betrayal as perfectly legitimate methods of advancing one's power and status. But they don't backstab to backstab. There is always a goal, always a reason, always a target. This is how they were psychological wired when they became Space Marines. The only difference now is that they don't get direction from a Chapter Master and a creed to protect the Imperium. They get it from the Ruinous Powers, powerful warlords, and often times themselves.

The one thing Chaos Space Marines should never become is a group of cackling, oblivious, pseudo-masterminds in power armor.

They are black knights, with all of the lethal capabilities of their loyalist brethren and a combination of desire, fearlessness, arrogance, and ruthless will that drives them to bargain with insane gods for the most dangerous power the galaxy knows so it can be wielded in battle.

Freak Ona Leash
25-08-2010, 19:25
I agree with you totally, Son of Sanguinius. However, I just don't like Abaddon or the Black Legion. ;)

I'm kidding (kinda) but what you said is basically how I feel. Chaos doesn't necessarily mean anarchy. Not in the 40k sense, at least.

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 19:28
I agree with you totally, Son of Sanguinius. However, I just don't like Abaddon or the Black Legion. ;)

I'm kidding (kinda) but what you said is basically how I feel. Chaos doesn't necessarily mean anarchy. Not in the 40k sense, at least.

Glad to know I'm not alone. :D

But Chaos does mean anarchy. The Chaos Space Marines are what you get when anarchy sinks its talons into warriors who have been utterly dependent on organization and structure. Their groups either dissolve or evolve.

Lupe
25-08-2010, 19:34
Remember that the Chaos Space Marines are first and foremost warriors. They respect strength. They respect power. They respect war records and victories, even amongst their enemies. They fight with a purpose, whether that is to destroy the Imperium, gain demonhood, cause destruction, or the joy of the fight itself.

I do believe that's what the Chaos Marines are all about. Spectacular displays of incompetence would be severely dealt with long before any fool ever reaches a command position. Only a few incompetent leaders probably survived the Heresy, and most of them were probably removed from power, not necessarily through backstabbing, but rather through open revolt or duel.

Abbadon is certainly no fool, and while some of the more fanatical (Erebus) or disciplined (I'm thinking Iron Warriors) legions see his crusades as failures, for the simple fact of not being able to push through half the Imperium to lay siege on Terra, most Chaos Marines probably see the Black Crusades as rather important victories.

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 19:37
I do believe that's what the Chaos Marines are all about. Spectacular displays of incompetence would be severely dealt with long before any fool ever reaches a command position. Only a few incompetent leaders probably survived the Heresy, and most of them were probably removed from power, not necessarily through backstabbing, but rather through open revolt or duel.

You know, I don't think an incompetent leader would have risen to lead a CSM Warband, and even if he did, he'd probably die on the battlefield.


Abbadon is certainly no fool, and while some of the more fanatical (Erebus) or disciplined (I'm thinking Iron Warriors) legions see his crusades as failures, for the simple fact of not being able to push through half the Imperium to lay siege on Terra, most Chaos Marines probably see the Black Crusades as rather important victories.

I think it's more a division over whose goals are accomplished, and whether or not Abaddon is accomplishing the goals of the Chaos Gods at large. Of course what those goals are depends entirely on who you are asking.

Freak Ona Leash
25-08-2010, 19:59
Glad to know I'm not alone. :D

But Chaos does mean anarchy. The Chaos Space Marines are what you get when anarchy sinks its talons into warriors who have been utterly dependent on organization and structure. Their groups either dissolve or evolve.

Well, Anarchy would imply they have NO leaders or structure or anything. Which they obviously do, even if that structure primarily revolves around warbands.

Lord_Crull
25-08-2010, 20:00
Abaddon isn't a clone, as per Horus Rising.

The goal of BC XIII was to breach the Cadian Gate. He ravaged the near entirety of the system, but Cadia itself still stands, and the Imperial Fleet is keeping him in place.

Cadia itself still standing is a debatable point. Abbadon's entry in the Chaos Codex says that he has ''overrun Cadia''. But really, due to the timeline being cut off we don't really know what happened next.

angrySCORCH62
25-08-2010, 20:48
Personally, I've never liked this image of the Black Legion. This is what leads to things like the ridiculous description of Chaos Terminators in the current codex. They sound more like Snidely Whiplash than ruthless, trained, superhuman killing machines in the best man-made armor in the galaxy. I also don't like the idea that Chaos Space Marines are all ambitious and willing to stab one another in the back as often as Skaven.

Remember that the Chaos Space Marines are first and foremost warriors. They respect strength. They respect power. They respect war records and victories, even amongst their enemies. They fight with a purpose, whether that is to destroy the Imperium, gain demonhood, cause destruction, or the joy of the fight itself. Of course some have ambition and see themselves as superior leaders and see assassination and betrayal as perfectly legitimate methods of advancing one's power and status. But they don't backstab to backstab. There is always a goal, always a reason, always a target. This is how they were psychological wired when they became Space Marines. The only difference now is that they don't get direction from a Chapter Master and a creed to protect the Imperium. They get it from the Ruinous Powers, powerful warlords, and often times themselves.

The one thing Chaos Space Marines should never become is a group of cackling, oblivious, pseudo-masterminds in power armor.

They are black knights, with all of the lethal capabilities of their loyalist brethren and a combination of desire, fearlessness, arrogance, and ruthless will that drives them to bargain with insane gods for the most dangerous power the galaxy knows so it can be wielded in battle.

I prefer that version as most do I assume

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 21:06
I prefer that version as most do I assume

Whether or not most do is actually debatable. We might like it here in this discussion, but authors seem to frequently go the other way with Chaos Space Marines, for whatever reason. Probably to make the loyalists look more like Dudley Do Right.

FarseerMatt
25-08-2010, 21:26
Cadia itself still standing is a debatable point. Abbadon's entry in the Chaos Codex says that he has ''overrun Cadia''. But really, due to the timeline being cut off we don't really know what happened next.

According to the Apocalypse rulebook and WD 334, the battle for Cadia is still raging, but Abbadon himself has moved on. He has broken out of the EOT into the Thesus sector, where the next phase of the 13th Black Crusade is now ongoing.

angrySCORCH62
25-08-2010, 21:44
Whether or not most do is actually debatable. We might like it here in this discussion, but authors seem to frequently go the other way with Chaos Space Marines, for whatever reason. Probably to make the loyalists look more like Dudley Do Right.

I suppose it's easier to write the bad guys that way, wouldn't books from their perspective be more kind to them.

Lord_Crull
25-08-2010, 23:01
According to the Apocalypse rulebook and WD 334, the battle for Cadia is still raging, but Abbadon himself has moved on. He has broken out of the EOT into the Thesus sector, where the next phase of the 13th Black Crusade is now ongoing.

I recall the Imperium laying a trap for abbadon in the thesus Secotr, but not about the next phase of the war being decided there. (But I don't have my Apoc rulebook on hand)

And I can find nothing about Abbadon in WD 334. The only Imperium vs. Chaos conflict is a battle report based around a war that occured in the 40th millenium.

Son of Sanguinius
26-08-2010, 02:51
I suppose it's easier to write the bad guys that way, wouldn't books from their perspective be more kind to them.

Easier? As an aspiring writer, I say hello no. Such stupidity in an antagonist requires too many deus ex machinas to give the protagonist a challenge.

Damage,Inc.
26-08-2010, 16:01
Personally, I've never liked this image of the Black Legion. This is what leads to things like the ridiculous description of Chaos Terminators in the current codex. They sound more like Snidely Whiplash than ruthless, trained, superhuman killing machines in the best man-made armor in the galaxy. I also don't like the idea that Chaos Space Marines are all ambitious and willing to stab one another in the back as often as Skaven.

Remember that the Chaos Space Marines are first and foremost warriors. They respect strength. They respect power. They respect war records and victories, even amongst their enemies. They fight with a purpose, whether that is to destroy the Imperium, gain demonhood, cause destruction, or the joy of the fight itself. Of course some have ambition and see themselves as superior leaders and see assassination and betrayal as perfectly legitimate methods of advancing one's power and status. But they don't backstab to backstab. There is always a goal, always a reason, always a target. This is how they were psychological wired when they became Space Marines. The only difference now is that they don't get direction from a Chapter Master and a creed to protect the Imperium. They get it from the Ruinous Powers, powerful warlords, and often times themselves.

The one thing Chaos Space Marines should never become is a group of cackling, oblivious, pseudo-masterminds in power armor.

They are black knights, with all of the lethal capabilities of their loyalist brethren and a combination of desire, fearlessness, arrogance, and ruthless will that drives them to bargain with insane gods for the most dangerous power the galaxy knows so it can be wielded in battle.

This is how I have always seen Chaos Space Marines. The image of Khorne Beserkers and other cult marines used to be that they wer einsane because they had gone so far over to the cult that they had lost the last vestiges of humanity, and Marine training/brotherhood. They represented the downward spiral of negative effects of Chaos, with spawn being the ultimate bottom rung. Chaos Marines fought alongside them out of prgmatism born from too few bodies to fight the galaxy, but never really trusted them.

This also is what made Chaos Lords exceptional. They were masters of warfare and politics, able to bind together the former marines and the crazed cultists into one cohesive force. This alone was a mark of an increbily powerful and intelligent individual.

Sadly, it seems along the way we have lost the nuances of Chaos in favor of "Blood for the blood god" rantings.

TheOverlord
26-08-2010, 20:46
By this logic, is the Imperium itself not a complete and utter failure as an empire as they still haven't gotten rid of the Orks, Eldar, Tau, and what have you?

Completely wiping out your enemy isn't the only course to victory, you know.

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-08-2010, 21:01
But it is the most satisfying course.

Son of Sanguinius
26-08-2010, 21:06
By this logic, is the Imperium itself not a complete and utter failure as an empire as they still haven't gotten rid of the Orks, Eldar, Tau, and what have you?

No, the Imperium's continued existence proves its success, and the success of their employed methods. After the physical death of the Emperor, the Imperium's only goal is survival. Which you're a success at until you die. :)

The stated design of the Emperor's Great Crusade was only partially successful. Its purpose was to reconquer the galaxy from the xenos races and other human factions in order to create a unified system under which mankind could dominate and thrive safely. The crusade accomplished almost all of that, but the galaxy is by no definition a safe place.

Dragoon King
27-08-2010, 13:28
Cadia itself still standing is a debatable point. Abbadon's entry in the Chaos Codex says that he has ''overrun Cadia''. But really, due to the timeline being cut off we don't really know what happened next.

Cadia was bypassed during one of the most mysterious Crusades, the 7th. What were the objectives of the "ghost war"? Were they successful? As a loyalist, one might see every crusade as a failure because the Imperium still stands. However, Abbadon increased his power with a lot of them. The Imperium may be on the decline, but it's still EXTREMELY powerful. Actually, the Crusades can be interperted as feints, or massive recon-in-force missions, and not always grandiose single strikes to wipe out the Imperium in one fell swoop. Actually, the latter seems to me like a foolish notion. I'd bet Abby knows that he'll most likely have to chip away for a very long time to reach his goal, and probably most other minions of the Dark Gods know this as well. While some CSM's motives might be dominated by trying to win the favor of the Gods, I'd say the theme of revenge against their former brothers is also paramount. Thus, even World Eaters, whose main goal is to collect skulls, still comprehend Abby's goals. The concept of Abby as "Dark Emperor" is based not so much on his tactical and strategic brillance (this is not to say he doesn't possess these traits, because he does) but because he has led countless attacks, seemingly against suicidal odds, and been successful. He leads from the front, and any warrior can respect that. That's my $0.02.

Lord_Crull
27-08-2010, 15:00
Cadia was bypassed during one of the most mysterious Crusades, the 7th.

But I'm not really talking about wheter Cadia was bypassed or not. Going by the map at the back of the 3.5 Codex most of Abbadon's crusades have made it far past Cadia.

Dragoon King
27-08-2010, 18:14
But I'm not really talking about wheter Cadia was bypassed or not. Going by the map at the back of the 3.5 Codex most of Abbadon's crusades have made it far past Cadia.

Agreed, the fate of Cadia is a bit of a moot point. Also, I'm wonder if Alpha Legion has played any part in the Crusades? And how much influence does Abby have over them?

TheOverlord
27-08-2010, 18:27
No, the Imperium's continued existence proves its success, and the success of their employed methods. After the physical death of the Emperor, the Imperium's only goal is survival. Which you're a success at until you die. :)

The stated design of the Emperor's Great Crusade was only partially successful. Its purpose was to reconquer the galaxy from the xenos races and other human factions in order to create a unified system under which mankind could dominate and thrive safely. The crusade accomplished almost all of that, but the galaxy is by no definition a safe place.

A more truthier truth has never been known, which is exactly what I meant with my statement. There are all sorts of victories, and complete annihilation of the enemy is not the only course of victory.

For all we know, it might be part of Abbadon's 35 step plan to overthrow the Imperium, and he's currently at step 13? He's still pondering on the implications of step 24, though, but surely he can find more Squats for his design.

Darkoth
27-08-2010, 18:28
. Thus, even World Eaters, whose main goal is to collect skulls, still comprehend Abby's goals.


Of course the World Eaters comprehend this. If the World Eaters were as bloodthirsty as GW seems to portray them it would just be World Eater Bob sat there with the entire Legions skulls around his neck. I much prefer the old World Eater fluff where not everyone is a frothing nut job and martial honor means something to the Legion. But i digress.

The Chaos Legions used to mean so much more than your typical cartoon villians they are turning into, all you have to do is look at the latest possessed models to see how GW are changing them to this villian archetype which IMO is not what chaos is about.

The Horus Heresy novels are starting to fill this out more giving reasons for the fall to chaos, such as Fulgrims possession and Erebus's corrupting of chaos, it all makes a lot more sense than lets have a jolly up to terror. And this is what Chaos Space Marines are about, they are dark nights as someone pointed out earlier. They still fight for their cause 10'000 years after the events that caused it many with honor and cohesion such as Word Bearers and Iron Warriors. Evene legions that are supposed to have fractured i can't see how they can function without some kind of infrastructure or outside support.

Abaddon is the most chosen son of chaos for he has led the Black Legion since the end of the heresy, i would imagine most Chaos Space Marines would see him as the embodiment of what they could become, forgetting all the sillyness that GW has introduced into chaos in the last few years. They would aspire to be like Abaddon or to fight in one of his hosts, to them he is the true embodiment of power and what they once stood for no matter how twisted they have become.

Lupe
27-08-2010, 19:21
Of course the World Eaters comprehend this. If the World Eaters were as bloodthirsty as GW seems to portray them it would just be World Eater Bob sat there with the entire Legions skulls around his neck. I much prefer the old World Eater fluff where not everyone is a frothing nut job and martial honor means something to the Legion. But i digress.

The World Eaters don't actually need to be raging notjobs, no matter how the fluff paints them. Not all the time, at any rate.

I like the idea of a dichotomy, where they're actually the same well trained marines with a solid understanding of tactics while off the battlefield, and just unleash themselves when the bolters start roaring and the chainaxes start churning... Even then, they'd have a good understanding of the greater picture, and stuff like honour and martial pride would still mean something to them. It's just that they'd see the complete, utter an incredibly gory annihilation of any nearby enemies as the most direct way to achieve the greater goal, and they'd dedicate themselves fully to reaching that goal.

Nazguire
28-08-2010, 06:05
Not all the World Eaters are crazed loons anyway, I would have thought based on older background. The Havocs of the World Eaters are the "Teeth of the World Eaters/Khorne" if I remember properly. To use a lascannon or heavy bolter effectively, I would dare say NOT running wildly into a melee is a smart idea.

Bitey
28-08-2010, 08:44
Personally I think its stretching things to say that the various black crusades have been successes. I mean sure Abaddon may have found his Magic Sparkly Sword of Awesomeness or his Death Star Remote Control but the fact remains that on a strategic level, on every single black crusade he has ultimately been forced to retreat into the eye of terror with no territorial gains, that to my mind doesn't equate to military success.

It would be a bit like claiming Napoleon's 1812 campaign was a success because he defeated the Russians at Borodino and himself remained undefeated in the field.

If the Black Crusades were instead Black 'small-scale raids to cause a bit of havoc and maybe do some looting' then yes they could be claimed to be succeeding in their objectives but as I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) thats just not the case. These Black crusades are meant to be bringing the imperium to its knees, something which all Abaddon's 13 efforts have quite patently failed to achieve. I'm not saying that extreme damage hasn't been dealt by the forces of chaos but for campaigns of conquest, they can nonly be considered failures....

Mannimarco
28-08-2010, 10:45
The Black Crusades arnt about territorial gains. Abaddon knows that you cant destroy the imperium in one move: you need to chip away a little here and there. You need to play the long game. If it was about territory then the Chaos forces would capture some worlds, hunker down and try to defend them, of course this would be suicide as the imperium has a massive amount of manpower and would constantly wear down the captured worlds under an unending sea of imperial guard battalions and space marine chapters.

At least the way he is doing his crusades he can come out, cause mass carnage and return to the eye of terror safe in the knowledge that the massive amounts of manpower arnt going to follow him in there.

Only now in the 13th crusade are we seeing what i like to think of as the next phase in the long game: the first few were all about tearing up the place, about capturing the blackstone fortresses (partial success), about aquiring drachnyen. Now that we are at the next phase of the crusade we will see more pushes into the imperium.

Now we have a daemon world outside the eye (agrippina, typhus little daemon world). We have breached the Cadian gate. Things are looking pretty good for the forces of Chaos right now.

DantesInferno
28-08-2010, 11:02
There seems to be an implicit (and incorrect) assumption often made that the Imperium and the Chaos forces in the Eye are somehow on a level playing field. Considering the massive numerical and logistical advantages which the Imperium enjoys over the Chaos forces bottled in the Eye, it is not surprising that Abaddon had been unable to breach the Gate and gain a secure foothold outside the Eye in 10 000 years of fighting.

Merely because Abaddon has had 13 Black Crusades and the Imperium is still standing doesn't necessarily mean that he's an idiot, incompetent commander or a fool. He's up against a galactic empire which has vastly more resources and soldiers at its command. It would be like saying the Polish generals were bad commanders for failing to stop the Wehrmacht in 1939. Sure, they lost, but they were hopelessly out-manned and out-gunned.

Son of Sanguinius
28-08-2010, 15:08
The Black Crusades arnt about territorial gains. Abaddon knows that you cant destroy the imperium in one move: you need to chip away a little here and there. You need to play the long game. If it was about territory then the Chaos forces would capture some worlds, hunker down and try to defend them, of course this would be suicide as the imperium has a massive amount of manpower and would constantly wear down the captured worlds under an unending sea of imperial guard battalions and space marine chapters.

At least the way he is doing his crusades he can come out, cause mass carnage and return to the eye of terror safe in the knowledge that the massive amounts of manpower arnt going to follow him in there.

Only now in the 13th crusade are we seeing what i like to think of as the next phase in the long game: the first few were all about tearing up the place, about capturing the blackstone fortresses (partial success), about aquiring drachnyen. Now that we are at the next phase of the crusade we will see more pushes into the imperium.

Now we have a daemon world outside the eye (agrippina, typhus little daemon world). We have breached the Cadian gate. Things are looking pretty good for the forces of Chaos right now.

+1. Good point.


There seems to be an implicit (and incorrect) assumption often made that the Imperium and the Chaos forces in the Eye are somehow on a level playing field. Considering the massive numerical and logistical advantages which the Imperium enjoys over the Chaos forces bottled in the Eye, it is not surprising that Abaddon had been unable to breach the Gate and gain a secure foothold outside the Eye in 10 000 years of fighting.

Merely because Abaddon has had 13 Black Crusades and the Imperium is still standing doesn't necessarily mean that he's an idiot, incompetent commander or a fool. He's up against a galactic empire which has vastly more resources and soldiers at its command. It would be like saying the Polish generals were bad commanders for failing to stop the Wehrmacht in 1939. Sure, they lost, but they were hopelessly out-manned and out-gunned.

+2!!!

Good point. :)

X-Porter
28-08-2010, 19:21
I'm no expert on the Black Crusades, having read neither the new Chaos codex nor any of the BL novels, but I would agree that Abbadon is playing the long game.

The way time moves in the Eye of Terror compared to the rest of the galaxy, time is the one thing Abbadon has in abundance. He can be launching Crusades within a couple of weeks of one another, as easily as within a couple thousand years.

Now, here's a fun game. What if Abbadon didn't launch his Crusades in the order that they took place in the material universe? What does taking the sequence of events out of order do to his win/loss record and the overall picture?

boogaloo
28-08-2010, 20:05
Just had to get my bit in here. Please bear in mind I am not a fluff nut, feel free to correct any innacuracies.

Let's take a look at the big picture here... Both chaos and the imperium have astartes, both of them have countless waves of foot troops (Chaos = Daemons, Imperium = IG) Chaos has managed to leave the Eye of terror, and take a FEW (very few) worlds. He has managed to storm out of the eye of terror, and claim some fancy gear. Now, here's the kicker... What has the imperium done? Calgar can one punch an avatar but he hasn't managed to storm in to the eye of terror and take even a single world. He hasn't even come close waltzing in to the eye of terror and taking 2 out of six Weapons of Mass destruction. Abby might not be choking out the emperor but hes still doing more than a guy who can choke out a statue of molten lava, and I think even the most treacherous of chaos daemons can respect that.

Lord_Crull
29-08-2010, 00:58
Now, here's the kicker... What has the imperium done? Calgar can one punch an avatar but he hasn't managed to storm in to the eye of terror and take even a single world. He hasn't even come close waltzing in to the eye of terror and taking 2 out of six Weapons of Mass destruction. Abby might not be choking out the emperor but hes still doing more than a guy who can choke out a statue of molten lava, and I think even the most treacherous of chaos daemons can respect that.

The Imperium wins just be defending and surviving among their enemies. The Imperium can afford to rebuild after every Black Crusade.

And Calgar's not doing much in the Eye of Terror because that's not his area of juristiction. It's on the other side of the galalxy from Macragge. The Ultramarines are the Guardians of the Eastern Fringe for a reason. They have enouhg problems to worry about. Their only force in Cadia is a token company made up of them and sucessors.


Personally I think its stretching things to say that the various black crusades have been successes. I mean sure Abaddon may have found his Magic Sparkly Sword of Awesomeness or his Death Star Remote Control but the fact remains that on a strategic level, on every single black crusade he has ultimately been forced to retreat into the eye of terror with no territorial gains, that to my mind doesn't equate to military success.


Except those Black Crusades where not meant to take and hold territory. Just get those objectives. Why waste manpower on holding territory before Abbadon is fully ready?



If the Black Crusades were instead Black 'small-scale raids to cause a bit of havoc and maybe do some looting' then yes they could be claimed to be succeeding in their objectives but as I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) thats just not the case.

Actually it is. The Chaos 3.5 Codex notes that several Black Crusades are actually small raids carried out by some of Abbadon's elite troops.

Griffindale
29-08-2010, 04:14
I like the idea of a dichotomy, where they're actually the same well trained marines with a solid understanding of tactics while off the battlefield, and just unleash themselves when the bolters start roaring and the chainaxes start churning...

I think what you have to understand about chaos is that you are right... to a degree. Chaos is all about nature. In nature, the strongest rise to the top. You're right, the frothing maniac World Eater's aren't what you have to worry about. You have to worry about the one with tactical acumen and enough arm strength the get the others respect. Chaos Marine units can be 20 strong, but there is only one chaos lord...

Abaraxas
31-08-2010, 11:01
Why is Abaddon the supreme commander anyway?

He surely isnt as powerful as the surviving traitor Primarchs/Daemon Princes-youd think that they would be first,let alone next in line to take Horus' place.

Thats all by the by though, Abaddon isnt going anywhere.

Nazguire
31-08-2010, 16:03
As discussed in other threads, the surviving Traitor Primarchs are Daemon Princes now and are more concerned with meditating on the true nature of the Warp. They've lost sight of 'the Game' as it were and are now more one with Chaos than they are with mortal plights.

Except Angron. He still hitz bitchez.

Lord_Crull
31-08-2010, 17:15
Abbadon is leader because the Daemon Primarchs simply are not interested at all.

Son of Sanguinius
31-08-2010, 17:19
Why is Abaddon the supreme commander anyway?

He surely isnt as powerful as the surviving traitor Primarchs/Daemon Princes-youd think that they would be first,let alone next in line to take Horus' place.

Thats all by the by though, Abaddon isnt going anywhere.

Abaddon is warmaster over the others primarily for the same reason he didn't become a demon prince. He's more valuable to the Chaos Gods as a mortal and he can actually get to Terra without requiring a warp storm to do so.

TheOverlord
01-09-2010, 07:53
With Abbadon's stats compared to Angron's Apocalypse Datasheet, I think Abby's almost as powerful as any old Daemon Primarch anywho.

Nazguire
01-09-2010, 08:29
With Abbadon's stats compared to Angron's Apocalypse Datasheet, I think Abby's almost as powerful as any old Daemon Primarch anywho.

You definately can't compare the rules with the background in many, many cases and the Primarch's rules are one of them.

Angron is a Primarch, and Khorne's second most poweful servant. There is no way he can be represented fairly in 40k rules, even in Apocalypse.

Essentially Abaddon is still a Space Marine. Sure he's got a sword that can cave in adamantium gates, the patronage of all four Gods and the (grudging) respect of the Traitor Legions, but he's still a Space Marine.

Askari
01-09-2010, 10:46
Angron is a Primarch, and Khorne's second most poweful servant.

You mean after Doombreed, Ang'grath the Unbound and Ka'Bandha right? ;)

Nazguire
01-09-2010, 11:10
You mean after Doombreed, Ang'grath the Unbound and Ka'Bandha right? ;)

Would say he's stronger than Ka'Bandha, seeming as Sanguinius broke his back of his knee.

I'd also hazard a guess that he'd be able to defeat Ang'grath, as Hector Rex the Inquisitor banished Ang-grath.

It took a full company of Terminator Armoured Grey Knights to banish Angron and even then, only a handful escaped with their lives to tell the story.

Though Doombreed is said to categorically be the strongest servant of Khorne. So no arguments there.

Iracundus
01-09-2010, 11:25
Though Doombreed is said to categorically be the strongest servant of Khorne. So no arguments there.

Where might this be? The 2nd edition Chaos Codex says no such thing, merely stating that Doombreed was one of Khorne's first Daemon Princes. Being senior in age is not equivalent to being the strongest.

Nazguire
01-09-2010, 17:53
Where might this be? The 2nd edition Chaos Codex says no such thing, merely stating that Doombreed was one of Khorne's first Daemon Princes. Being senior in age is not equivalent to being the strongest.

I believe its in the latest Chaos Codex. Don't have the book on hand however to prove it but.

Hashulaman
02-09-2010, 08:06
It says in the CSM codex the Chaos gods marked him to be the sucessor to Horus, ergo he has their protection. While he is blessed by them, I doubt even the Daemon primarchs would mess with him. Granted they could rip him to pieces, but they'd have to deal with an angry patron.

Iracundus
02-09-2010, 12:28
I believe its in the latest Chaos Codex. Don't have the book on hand however to prove it but.

There is no proof of that either in the latest CSM Codex. What is says is mostly a reprint of the 2nd edition Chaos Codex:



Khorne was the first of the Great GOds of Chaos to awake fully, and Doombreed was one of the first of his servants. His true name has been long forgotten, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies that ravaged entire nations on Earth long, long, ago. His acts of genocide and murder pleased the young god Khorne, who rewarded him and made him one of his first Daemon Princes. Since then Doombreed has continued to serve Khorne well. Over the milleniia, Doombreed has returned to slaughter the warriors of humanity countless times, his presence always inspiring bloodshed and war on an apocalyptic scale. Doombreed fought for his bloody master at the side of Warmaster Horus during the Heresy, and was aboard the Warmaster's battle barge when the Emperor attacked and Horus was slain. Of Doombreed's subsequent wars, there is no record. p. 32, Chaos Space Marine Codex.

No mention whatsoever of being the strongest servant of Khorne, just among the earliest.

I think this claim of Doombreed being strongest is yet another of those unsubstantiated claims or misreadings that gets repeated and mistaken as being true despite no actual evidence for this.

Merus
02-09-2010, 20:31
I believe its in the latest Chaos Codex. Don't have the book on hand however to prove it but.

Iracundus is correct. The most recent codex says nothing as to his power; only that he was one of the earliest servants of Khorne.

Soratris
03-09-2010, 10:10
I think abaddon is trying to convert the blood ravens atm...or did he fail at that aswell.

Grubnar
05-09-2010, 05:56
I think abaddon is trying to convert the blood ravens atm...or did he fail at that aswell.

We do not know, the game ends without a conclusion to that. :cries:
And besides, it is not Abaddon himself, but one of his pawns doing that.

Malice313
05-09-2010, 07:50
Its a wonder that Dr Claw, Cobra Commander and Skeletor kept their job for so long too.

At least Abbadon isn't your flash-in-the-pan evil overlord.

jjb0rdell0
05-09-2010, 10:12
Yeah, if there's one thing he's proved - it's that he's got staying power!

Archaon
05-09-2010, 18:25
It took a full company of Terminator Armoured Grey Knights to banish Angron and even then, only a handful escaped with their lives to tell the story.


He was accompanied by a bodyguard unit of 12 (or were there even more?) Bloodthirsters so Angron didn't kill almost an entire Grey Knight company by himself.

Additionally all Primarchs have their own specialties and interests.. while Angron is a real monster in close combat a clever strategist will just goad him to white hot rage and lure him into a ranged attack kill zone (if he still makes it through however the enemy is in a lot of trouble).

Magnus is just interested in deepening his knowledge of sorcery and maybe occasionally throwing down with the Space Wolves.

Mortarion is too sick to get out of bed.

You get my point.. Abbaddon has goals that transcend any single Chaos god and he can put their personal strengths to good use combining them in a way that makes it even more powerful.

While a Primarch might beat him in their respective field none could lead a combination of all 4 powers but Abbaddon can and so he's in fact more valuable to the Chaos gods than a mere Primarch.

Lord Nestron
05-09-2010, 18:34
He was accompanied by a bodyguard unit of 12 (or were there even more?) Bloodthirsters so Angron didn't kill almost an entire Grey Knight company by himself.

Additionally all Primarchs have their own specialties and interests.. while Angron is a real monster in close combat a clever strategist will just goad him to white hot rage and lure him into a ranged attack kill zone (if he still makes it through however the enemy is in a lot of trouble).

Magnus is just interested in deepening his knowledge of sorcery and maybe occasionally throwing down with the Space Wolves.

Mortarion is too sick to get out of bed.

You get my point.. Abbaddon has goals that transcend any single Chaos god and he can put their personal strengths to good use combining them in a way that makes it even more powerful.

While a Primarch might beat him in their respective field none could lead a combination of all 4 powers but Abbaddon can and so he's in fact more valuable to the Chaos gods than a mere Primarch.

You mean till he mets which ever of the Alpharius/Omegadon survived and gets his behind handed to him or Fulgrim who has killed/mortally wounded 2 of his Brothers in Personal Combat.... Mere Primarch is a bit of a joke ain`t it?

Lord-Caerolion
05-09-2010, 23:01
You mean till he mets which ever of the Alpharius/Omegadon survived and gets his behind handed to him or Fulgrim who has killed/mortally wounded 2 of his Brothers in Personal Combat.... Mere Primarch is a bit of a joke ain`t it?

So, your examples for how the Primarchs aren't so tough are a source that is so disputed it isn't funny (even the Ultramarines deny it happened), and the fact that another Primarch can kill them?

Just because a demi-god can hurt another demi-god doesn't make it any less powerful. Now, if you'd given an example of something a little more mundane killing a Primarch, that'd work.

Nazguire
06-09-2010, 00:19
He was accompanied by a bodyguard unit of 12 (or were there even more?) Bloodthirsters so Angron didn't kill almost an entire Grey Knight company by himself.

Additionally all Primarchs have their own specialties and interests.. while Angron is a real monster in close combat a clever strategist will just goad him to white hot rage and lure him into a ranged attack kill zone (if he still makes it through however the enemy is in a lot of trouble).

Magnus is just interested in deepening his knowledge of sorcery and maybe occasionally throwing down with the Space Wolves.

Mortarion is too sick to get out of bed.

You get my point.. Abbaddon has goals that transcend any single Chaos god and he can put their personal strengths to good use combining them in a way that makes it even more powerful.

While a Primarch might beat him in their respective field none could lead a combination of all 4 powers but Abbaddon can and so he's in fact more valuable to the Chaos gods than a mere Primarch.

??
Angron is a Primarch. He isn't stupid. If it was easy to simply shoot him dead then the Imperium would have done so by now. Just because the rules reflect Khorne Berserkers as idiots, doesn't mean they actually are, especially a superhuman Primarch.

I would believe that an Undovided Primarch like Lorgar could do what Abaddon does, if he wished to. But he doesn't wish to the same way as Abaddon does.

major soma
06-09-2010, 02:12
Fabius Bile created several clones of Horus for the various chaos space marine chapters and Abaddon killed every one of them, that was back when they first introduced the minis and rules for the characters. Hasnt GW retconned the 13th crusade so that it didnt happen? I thought I read somewhere that they had [primarily because it didnt quite work out the way they had expected it to?]

major soma
06-09-2010, 02:14
??
Angron is a Primarch. He isn't stupid. If it was easy to simply shoot him dead then the Imperium would have done so by now. Just because the rules reflect Khorne Berserkers as idiots, doesn't mean they actually are, especially a superhuman Primarch.

I would believe that an Undovided Primarch like Lorgar could do what Abaddon does, if he wished to. But he doesn't wish to the same way as Abaddon does.

Angron's been banished several times but only banished each time for 1000 years for some reason it seems to be harder to destroy a Daemon Prince than a Fully Fledged Daemon.

major soma
06-09-2010, 02:16
We do not know, the game ends without a conclusion to that. :cries:
And besides, it is not Abaddon himself, but one of his pawns doing that.

Think theres an Add-on due out next year.

Askari
06-09-2010, 10:59
Hasnt GW retconned the 13th crusade so that it didnt happen? I thought I read somewhere that they had [primarily because it didnt quite work out the way they had expected it to?]

Nope, the 13th Black Crusade was a notable Chaos victory. GW have softened it a little so it didn't seem so one-sided, but it was.

Another note on Abaddon, it does mean a lot that he's a former Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Captain. Many other Legions, if not all, had the greatest respect for Horus and his Legion, and most had fought alongisde the Legion during the Great Crusade, forming bonds of brotherhood with the Luna Wolves. They saw Horus as a natural candidate for Warmaster - Abaddon would then be the natural successor to Horus.

Since then he's lived up to all expectations, especially with the ascension of the Primarchs who have grown lazy and self-absorbed, Abaddon behaves much like the Primarchs did during the Great Crusade, leading from the front with charisma and courage. He may not be a Primarch in body, but I'm sure many Chaos Marines find him more like what a Primarch should be.

tezdal
07-09-2010, 02:56
I wouldn't call Angron lazy and self absorbed, sometimes you just got' to relax after being banished from the material plane.

Archaon
07-09-2010, 09:54
You mean till he mets which ever of the Alpharius/Omegadon survived and gets his behind handed to him or Fulgrim who has killed/mortally wounded 2 of his Brothers in Personal Combat.... Mere Primarch is a bit of a joke ain`t it?

I never said "mere" Primarch and i said that a Primarch would beat Abbaddon in their field of specialty.. Angron would beat him in close combat, Magnus is a better sorcerer (if Abaddon ever was one that is.. he has the Mark though) etc.

However none could lead all the Chaos forces effectively as him because each Primarch is either a Demon Prince thus confined to the Warp or warp breached areas of the Galaxy or they follow a single god and thus would have difficulty leading forces from another god.


??
Angron is a Primarch. He isn't stupid. If it was easy to simply shoot him dead then the Imperium would have done so by now. Just because the rules reflect Khorne Berserkers as idiots, doesn't mean they actually are, especially a superhuman Primarch.

I would believe that an Undovided Primarch like Lorgar could do what Abaddon does, if he wished to. But he doesn't wish to the same way as Abaddon does.

Yes.. Angron isn't stupid but then i said goad him into rage (insulting him, provoking him etc) and when his mind goes blank and he falls into a berserker rage i doubt he'll be sane anymore and all his tactical and strategic skill will be overriden by his desire to shed blood and this may be an advantage for an opponent who can exploit this flaw.

Lorgar is a Demon Prince so he has the same problem as all the others that he can't go wherever he wishes or that it would take a huge preparation to do so (not always possible in the flow of battle).

Dragoon King
07-09-2010, 22:48
So it could be said Abby still leads because he is the most focused on the goal of the majority of CSM, which is revenge against the Imperium? That coupled with his strength and courage? I find it interesting that he's been able to use the power of Chaos to his advantage, without becoming a mere pawn of fickle gods. But whose to say they won't abandon him like they did Horus? Hasn't Abby retained the favor of the gods much longer than Horus? That gives an insight to why he still leads.

Nazguire
07-09-2010, 23:30
I never said "mere" Primarch and i said that a Primarch would beat Abbaddon in their field of specialty.. Angron would beat him in close combat, Magnus is a better sorcerer (if Abaddon ever was one that is.. he has the Mark though) etc.

However none could lead all the Chaos forces effectively as him because each Primarch is either a Demon Prince thus confined to the Warp or warp breached areas of the Galaxy or they follow a single god and thus would have difficulty leading forces from another god.



Yes.. Angron isn't stupid but then i said goad him into rage (insulting him, provoking him etc) and when his mind goes blank and he falls into a berserker rage i doubt he'll be sane anymore and all his tactical and strategic skill will be overriden by his desire to shed blood and this may be an advantage for an opponent who can exploit this flaw.

Lorgar is a Demon Prince so he has the same problem as all the others that he can't go wherever he wishes or that it would take a huge preparation to do so (not always possible in the flow of battle).

You make fighting Angron sound like a scene in Dragon Ball Z. What could you honestly say that will even slightly annoy someone who is your obvious superior in every way?

If you read the Chaos Codex, you'll see that Berserkers still have some mode of thought when killing everything around them. Angron may be a frothing maniac, but he isn't a fool. Insanity doesn't = stupidity. If he seriously got upset enough to run into a fist full of guns that could atomise him because someone called him some nasty names, then he deserves to die.

Son of Sanguinius
08-09-2010, 04:05
Not only that, but Angron's only going to fight something worth his time.

Nazguire
08-09-2010, 09:07
Not only that, but Angron's only going to fight something worth his time.

That too.

In Galaxy of Flames, the loyalists pumped Angron's Thunderhawk full of bullets as the landing hatch came down. And Angron just roared a little and still proceeded to kick butt.

I doubt that as a Daemon Primarch any amount of guns is going to hurt the guy for the short amount of time they have to shoot at him before their operators are splattered.

malika
22-11-2010, 17:23
Its called the Horus Heresy but really he was just a pawn. Since the collapse of the legions as we know them and the old alliances it seems that Abaddon is not so gullible though. Heck, he bullies daemons into giving him information in the Necron codex ffs.
In Nemesis we see that Horus isn't that much of a lapdog by putting Erebus in his place. Erebus feels a bit by-passed by the Warmaster.

As for Abbadon, everybody here seems to talk about his physical strength and how he is like Horus. There were rumors that Abbadon might have been a clone son of Horus and that Fabius Bile was responsible for this. Note that this theory was written in the earlier days, before the Horus Heresy novels were written. In the novels I don't get the impression that Fabius Bile was a Terran, it was also mentioned that he was a relatively young Apothecary. The Mournival had already been around for some time, with the four figures (the ones before Loken joined in) already being Horus' advisers for many years. This means that Abbadon might have already been around early in the Crusade (all the other members of the Mournival who were mentioned might have been around in the same time but died during combat).
This would then mean that Abbadon is an Astartes rather than a Primarch of pseudo-Primarch or whatever you want to call him. Physically he is a very big and strong Space Marines. Which reminds me, in the HH novels it is mentioned that Abby couldn't fit in Terminator armour but later on he is in it all the time...what's up with that?
But ok, we are dealing with a powerful Space Marine with fancy equipment.

People then mention that Abbadon couldn't be removed from power because he is so strong physically speaking. What does that have to do with anything? Why go for hand to hand combat with him if you can simply blow up his ship or destroy the world he is on? I guess the answer to that question would be that he is too well protected. And this is the interesting part of the discussion. Abbadon is powerful on a political and military level. He has many warbands allied to him. Note that his Legion is not that big, they must have suffered many losses during the Horus Heresy (if the Loyalists Legions have lost more than 90% of their numbers, why not the Traitors?). Then there is also this whole daemonic possession thing the Black Legion seemed to have suffered from. This would mean that Abbadon's force lies primarily in warbands of other Legions allied/subjugated to him. I can imagine that some members of these warbands or entire warbands could be assimilated into the Black Legion (like that Night Lord sorcerer in Soul Hunter who bore the colours of the Black Legion).

So Abbadon has the political power to have many warbands ally to him, this provides Abbadon with the protection and back up needed not only to attack the Imperium, but also to prevent others from usurping him. Many would follow him because he is the successor to the original Warmaster, others might follow him because they respect his martial prowess and physical strength. Yet others could be forced into obeying him because he has the backing of others. Another means of getting followers would be to simply pay them (loot from war, etc). Many others would join Abbadon because he is one of the few who actually has the guts to attack the Imperium head on like that. There are few warlords who have the balls to undertake campaigns against the Imperium on a scale larger than mere raids. Even Angron's attack on Armageddon could be considered nothing more than a raid, a large scale and special raid, but a raid nonetheless, it was not part of a bigger plan.

The Orange
23-11-2010, 01:59
i said goad him into rage
The man whose mouth is dirty enough to accomplish that must have had his tongue blessed by pappa nurgle himself :p. Honestly I'd have little faith in a commander who's grand plans was "I'm gonna **** him off (a master strategist with several millennia? of experience) and get him to walk into a trap". Just because Angaron might have a shorter fuse then his brothers doesn't change the fact that hes a Primarch (i.e. good luck trying to outsmart him). And even if Abbadon did, given the fact that Daemons just re-emerge in the Warp, my advice would be for Abbadon to stay clear of the EoT (or any warp anomalies) for the next few mellenia.

The Inevitable One
23-11-2010, 07:58
Abaddon is a clone son of Horus and a physical link to their primarch. He is a figurehead for the legion armed with the very weapon that tore apart another Primarch.

I don't think this is right. He was rumored to be a clone of Horus. If am wrong, I retract my statement and give my apologies.

Nazguire
23-11-2010, 09:09
I don't think this is right. He was rumored to be a clone of Horus. If am wrong, I retract my statement and give my apologies.

You are correct. He is rumoured, and was confirmed to be a normal Astartes in the books. There is nothing to suggest he was an actual clone of Horus by anything other than his slight physical resemblance. He wasn't even the most similar looking to Horus. 'Little Horus' Aximand took that honour.

The Arch Heretic
23-11-2010, 12:06
Abbadon wasn't a clone,but one of the original Cthonic members of the Luna wolves. Unlike Loken,who was Terran.

malika
23-11-2010, 20:01
Loken was Terran? I don't remember that being mentioned anywhere. As far as I remember Loken was Cthonic as well, but from a different genetic line, making him look different from those closer to Horus.

The Arch Heretic
24-11-2010, 05:34
I will have a double check tonight,but I've just begun re-reading the Heresy books (need to pay more attention to details!) and I'm sure Loken was recruited from Terra.

Son of Sanguinius
24-11-2010, 07:33
Yeah, I don't recall Loken being terran. But I must confirm this. I'm off to the place where I keep all my books.

Bruce Wayne's study (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm4vDz7k2w4).

narrativium
24-11-2010, 08:35
Loken wasn't Terran. Some of the Cthonians took on more of Horus's appearance when they became Luna Wolves, others didn't. The myth started in the initiations of the first Cthonian Luna Wolves; Abaddon emerged with a resemblance to the Primarch, became First Captain and one of the first of the Mournival.

Lord-Caerolion
24-11-2010, 08:41
You are correct. He is rumoured, and was confirmed to be a normal Astartes in the books. There is nothing to suggest he was an actual clone of Horus by anything other than his slight physical resemblance. He wasn't even the most similar looking to Horus. 'Little Horus' Aximand took that honour.

Exactly. It's just another case of the geneseed interacting with the implantee to make them resemble their Primarch in ways that geneseed technically shouldn't alter them.

There are no clones of Horus, as to be a clone they have to be identical. Seeing as Little Horus got as close to looking like Horus as possible, but still didn't, that means there weren't any clones.

TheLaughingGod
24-11-2010, 15:14
The Chaos codex specifically states that all Black Crusades splinter into disagreeing warbands. All Black Crusades are failures because by it's nature, Chaos is incapable of long term strategic cohesion. The greatest threat that Chaos poses is heresy, not the exiled Legions.

Besides, if we look at the history of it it's mostly Abbadon failing to assault Cadia over and over again. He did some damage to a handful of Imperial systems over the battle, destroying a couple planets. The long term result of which is that the Administratum will have to fill out some more paperwork about a few hundred billion deaths and re-draw a couple centimeters on the galaxy map. Meanwhile, the main Chaos fleet is crippled, he lost the Planetkiller, 5 out of 6 Blackstone Fortresses have been destroyed and Abaddon's forces are trapped on Cadia while the Imperium controls the space above bombing the living **** out of them and bringing in fresh regiments to liberate their world. The Necrons gained the upper hand against Chaos, the Eldar reclaimed some weapons against Chaos and re-captured their homeworlds.

Sounds like he's winning to me... >_>

Lord_Crull
24-11-2010, 16:14
The Chaos codex specifically states that all Black Crusades splinter into disagreeing warbands. All Black Crusades are failures because by it's nature, Chaos is incapable of long term strategic cohesion.

Funny, I recall reading how each Black Crusade ranges in size from planetary attacks to raids by small, elite forces. I don't recall anything that states that they all inevitably break up.



Besides, if we look at the history of it it's mostly Abbadon failing to assault Cadia over and over again.

Umm, no, putting aside the fact that Abaddon attacks the entire Cadian sector as well, we don't have any evidence that even most Black Crusades are directed at Cadia. The First and Second where confirmed to be, but the 7th and 12th took place past Cadia. The 13th is still ongoing.


He did some damage to a handful of Imperial systems over the battle, destroying a couple planets.

Did some damage to a handful? I recall reading differently from the Eye of Terror Newsletter. In fact the Newsletter gave the Crusade as a minor victory for Chaos overall.
It also talks about how many Imperial worlds where destroyed and many more where lost to eh warp with decades of fighting at the least on more. It also talks about the forces of Chaos having new bases to launch attacks.

Meanwhile, the main Chaos fleet is crippled,

It is? I don't recall reading that anywhere.


Abaddon's forces are trapped on Cadia while the Imperium controls the space above bombing the living **** out of them and bringing in fresh regiments to liberate their world.

How are they trapped? True the Imperium has orbital superiority, but they should't prevent a concentrated effort from the rest fo the Chaos forces in the sector.

Plus the Imperium is rather busy with the massive Chaos invasions all over the Sector. The 13th is still ingoing. The situation on Cadia is different then the rest fo the sector.

TheLaughingGod
24-11-2010, 16:40
Funny, I recall reading how each Black Crusade ranges in size from planetary attacks to raids by small, elite forces. I don't recall anything that states that they all inevitably break up..
Page 24, Black Crusade Sidebar, 4th Edition Chaos Codex.




Umm, no, putting aside the fact that Abaddon attacks the entire Cadian sector as well, we don't have any evidence that even most Black Crusades are directed at Cadia. The First and Second where confirmed to be, but the 7th and 12th took place past Cadia. The 13th is still ongoing..
"but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate" Emphasis mine.
From the final Eye of Terror Newsletter
http://web.archive.org/web/20040828134314/www.eyeofterror.com/uk/newsletter/newsletterfinal.htm




Did some damage to a handful? I recall reading differently from the Eye of Terror Newsletter. In fact the Newsletter gave the Crusade as a minor victory for Chaos overall..
Let's see.
Cadia: Ground held by Chaos, cut off by Imperium ships in orbit. Almost two Entire Battlefleets enroute to reinforce.
Scarus: Ork contested
Belis Corona:Imperium-held Tyranids repelled
Agripinaa: Nurgle-held
Webway and all worlds connected exclusively: Ulthwe held, Chaos defeated and driven back.
Caliban: Dark Angels held, Chaos defeated and driven back
Space Lanes: Imperial Navy victory
Looks like aside from Cadia, the Black Crusade didn't do much.






It is? I don't recall reading that anywhere..
I'm assuming, since the Imperium is controlling the space in the sector and Abaddon had a sizable fleet upon arrival.





How are they trapped? True the Imperium has orbital superiority, but they should't prevent a concentrated effort from the rest fo the Chaos forces in the sector.....what rest of the Chaos forces? the Imperium is controlling space in the sector Period. The entire Gothic fleet is on it's way with the Solar fleet not far behind. Not to mention, aside from Agrippa, Chaos doesn't have any boots on the ground.




Plus the Imperium is rather busy with the massive Chaos invasions all over the Sector. The 13th is still ingoing. The situation on Cadia is different then the rest fo the sector. Not according to the final report which you can read since I posted the link to the archive. Imperial space control equals Black Crusade over.

Lord_Crull
24-11-2010, 16:48
"but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate" Emphasis mine.


Hmmm, that's odd, especially when one cosniders the 7th and 12th where never even directed at Cadia in the first place.



"but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate" Emphasis mine.
From the final Eye of Terror Newsletter
http://web.archive.org/web/20040828134314/www.eyeofterror.com/uk/newsletter/newsletterfinal.htm


EDIT:
Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come

From your own link. Under final newsletter.



Cadia: Ground held by Chaos, cut off by Imperium ships in orbit. Almost two Entire Battlefleets enroute to reinforce.
Scarus: Ork contested
Belis Corona:Imperium-held Tyranids repelled
Agripinaa: Nurgle-held
Webway and all worlds connected exclusively: Ulthwe held, Chaos defeated and driven back.
Caliban: Dark Angels held, Chaos defeated and driven back
Space Lanes: Imperial Navy victory
Looks like aside from Cadia, the Black Crusade didn't do much.


EOT: Newsletter Death by a Thousand Cuts


Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces ot Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-manoeuvred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

.....

Many bastions have fallen to the forces of Chaos and may never be recovered, the warp storms surrounding the Eye have expanded to engulf whole systems. The fighting on others could continue for decades to come. With the worlds captured the forces of Disorder are now positioned to launch attacks into more Imperial worlds. The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.

From your own link. The Final newsletter


Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come

Seems otherwise to me.

And those worlds you mentioned where only a small part of the entire Cadian sector.



...what rest of the Chaos forces? the Imperium is controlling space in the sector Period.


Last I checked it was just Cadia itself actually.

Again, from your own link.


The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.

A ''small channel'' is not much. In your oww link even the renforcement is cast in doubht whter they can hold or not.


aside from Agrippa, Chaos doesn't have any boots on the ground.


Again, Death by a Thousand Cuts Newsletter. Oh, and the other quotes I posted talk about Chaos getting a solid foothold outside the Eye and how they are not going to be repelled for many years to come.


With the worlds captured the forces of Disorder are now positioned to launch attacks into more Imperial worlds. The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.

In fact the whole part of the space lanes actually casts doubt on the Imperial ability to hold them.


The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.



Not according to the final report which you can read since I posted the link to the archive. Imperial space control equals Black Crusade over.

Actually your own link states otherwise. ''A small channel'' is not much. See my quotes.

In fact, your link has actually cause me to strengthen the faith in my position more. I now have many more quotes describing how Abaddon's forces have a large foothold outside the Eye and how many worlds have been ravenged.



I'm assuming, since the Imperium is controlling the space in the sector and Abaddon had a sizable fleet upon arrival.


I see then, an assumption.

Iracundus
24-11-2010, 19:11
...what rest of the Chaos forces? the Imperium is controlling space in the sector Period. The entire Gothic fleet is on it's way with the Solar fleet not far behind. Not to mention, aside from Agrippa, Chaos doesn't have any boots on the ground.

Another EoT denier? Quite simply, the above statements are incorrect. Chaos forces took most of the worlds in the Agripinaa sector, including but not limited to 3 hive worlds and 3 agri-worlds. It is Agripinaa itself that still is in Imperial control, but with its supplies of food and raw material cut off.

See

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2764491

The major sectors reproduced verbatim from the WD article Death by a Thousand Cuts, showing a world by world break down of Scarus, Agripinaa, Cadia, and Belis Corona sectors.

Lord-Caerolion
24-11-2010, 22:55
The whole "he's never made it past the Cadian Gate" is utter rubbish, given that one Black Crusade reached the Gothic Sector, and won the Blackstone Fortresses.

Bonzai
24-11-2010, 23:02
I had also asked myself the same question at one point. Afterall, how does being Horus'es lap dog qualify him to be the Chaos poster boy?

So I researched it. Index Astartes states that after the Heresy, the Son's of Horus were severly weakened and almost wiped out. It was Abbadon who rallied the survivors, united them, and essentually reformed them into something new. So for the surviving Sons of Horus are going to be fairly loyal. No one else was able to salvage their legion. Then he did an amazing thing, and managed to snach members of other legions to his cause.

How? Because he was actually doing something. Aside from Angron, the other Primarch are out of the picture. He has plans, and aside from being a primarch, right hand to Horus is about the biggest name recognition you can get. Most of the other legions are shadows of their former selves. The only exceptions are the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion does what Alpha Legin does, and the Word Bearers only occasionally musters it's strength. So for a former Crusader looking for battle, glory, and to make a name for themselves in epic battle, Abbadon is their best bet.

Of anyone else, maybe the Word Bearers could take over. That is if Erebus and Kor Phaeron stopped back stabbing each other and could put on a united front. However with the Primarch away, those two are caught up in pety intriges that keeps the legion unfocused.

TheLaughingGod
24-11-2010, 23:08
Hmmm, that's odd, especially when one cosniders the 7th and 12th where never even directed at Cadia in the first place..
Well, this is what it says. It's canon.
edit: That said, black crusades have to go through the Cadian Gate anyways. I always assumed they'd run the blockade or attack the defenses or both.




A ''small channel'' is not much. In your oww link even the renforcement is cast in doubht whter they can hold or not..
You're ignoring the context. The context is that there's a small channel in the expanding Eye of Terror, not that the Space is filled with hostile chaos warships.





In fact the whole part of the space lanes actually casts doubt on the Imperial ability to hold them..
quoted from the Death by a Thousand Cuts article
"By dint of this cunning manoeuvre Quarren succeeded, first in dividing the main fleet and, then, in pursuing the defeated elements to final extinction. Only those squadrons that stayed close to the Blackstone Fortress remained a threat but the Chaos fleet was now concerned more with survival."
"One by one the screening Chaos vessels were peeled away from the Blacstone until eventually it was forced to cease its attack and concentrate upon its own defence."




I see then, an assumption.
If you'll see above my assumption is quite correct. Most if not all Chaos fleet elements were destroyed or driven off. This supports my earlier statement of imperial naval dominance in the warzones.

While Chaos forces may be tricky to uproot in the years to come, it's indicating that Imperial Navy forces reign supreme in the sectors in question and above Cadia herself with one and a half entire battlefleets on their way to support.

Lord_Crull
25-11-2010, 01:18
Well, this is what it says. It's canon.


How is it canon if another canon source contridicts it.


edit: That said, black crusades have to go through the Cadian Gate anyways. I always assumed they'd run the blockade or attack the defenses or both.


The Battlefleet Gothic rulebook was very clear how Abaddon avoided the Cadian Gate and went through the Arx Gap instead.




You're ignoring the context. The context is that there's a small channel in the expanding Eye of Terror, not that the Space is filled with hostile chaos warships.


First of all, no, I don't see where it says anything about an expanding Eye of Terror, secondly, if that was the case that still means that the Imperial Space control is far from absolute.

But assumign what you say is true, then that means that any Imperial Space control from now is on borrowed time. With new angles to attack and Cadia strategic importance reduced, I can't see the Imperium maintaining naval control long.



quoted from the Death by a Thousand Cuts article
"By dint of this cunning manoeuvre Quarren succeeded, first in dividing the main fleet and, then, in pursuing the defeated elements to final extinction. Only those squadrons that stayed close to the Blackstone Fortress remained a threat but the Chaos fleet was now concerned more with survival."
"One by one the screening Chaos vessels were peeled away from the Blacstone until eventually it was forced to cease its attack and concentrate upon its own defence."


..........And? He was talking about the fleet at Cadia. Chaos has many more warships across the sector. I find it hard to believe that every single Chaos ship in the Black Crusade was gathered at Cadia when Abaddon is launching a multi-sector wide attack.



If you'll see above my assumption is quite correct. Most if not all Chaos fleet elements were destroyed or driven off. This supports my earlier statement of imperial naval dominance in the warzones.


Actually it appears to be just at Cadia itself. If most of the Chaos fleet in the entire sector was destroyed then the Imperial fleet would not be described as being insufficent to hold the Gate.



While Chaos forces may be tricky to uproot in the years to come, it's indicating that Imperial Navy forces reign supreme in the sectors in question and above Cadia herself with one and a half entire battlefleets on their way to support.

......which in the article itself cast doubt upon those battlefleets to actually do the job.


The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

That does not sound optimistic for the Imperium.

And ''may be'' tricky to uproot? Both newsletters make it clear that Chaos has breached the Gate and they are not going home anything soon?

TheLaughingGod
25-11-2010, 01:22
How is it canon if another canon source contridicts it.

You cherry pick quotes and use circular reasoning. Fantastic, you are impossible to argue with because you're blind to any evidence that contradicts you.

That's good to know. Should save me a lot of time.

Lord_Crull
25-11-2010, 01:26
You cherry pick quotes and use circular reasoning. Fantastic, you are impossible to argue with because you're blind to any evidence that contradicts you.

That's good to know. Should save me a lot of time.

No, I don't cherry pick quotes. I never said anything was completely wrong. Don't put words in my mouth.

I am merely questioning the validity of a single sentence compared to a rather detailed explanation that frankly makes more sense in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook.

If anything I would argue that you are ''cherry-picking'' quotes. If anything I have reason to doubt you considering you claimed that Chaos had no ''boots on the ground'' when your own link clearly and repeatedly stated otherwise.

Iracundus
25-11-2010, 05:08
The Apocalypse rulebook depicts Abaddon in a once more fully functional Planet Killer in the Theseus sector still leading the 13th Black Crusade, which is beyond the Cadian Gate as it is not among the Cadian Gate sectors fought over in the Eye of Terror campaign. That sector now appears to be embroiled in conflict. While the 13th Black Crusade may be currently stalled there, it shows that whatever else it has reached beyond the Gate.

I also suggest that people go actually look at the WD article or the relevant sections reproduced in the link I included above, with the explicit sector and world results. Imperial navy dominance does not extend to Cadia itself, which still has system control percentages favoring Chaos. In also no uncertain terms, the article also declares the campaign was a Chaos victory. Not a complete one certainly, but neither was it the failure that Force of Order sympathizers are trying to downplay it into. The battle in space was just one part of the wider conflict and in the 40K paradigm, space warfare is not the be all and end all of everything so the Imperium having the edge there doesn't equate to a victory. It may have equated to a minor loss for the Imperium instead of a major loss but that is a different matter. The Imperium and Forces of Order lost the Eye of Terror campaign. The Imperium won Medusa V. Factions win some and lose some. Refusal to accept when one loses is the path to fanboyism.

Ka Faraq Gatri
26-11-2010, 01:11
The question of why Abaddon remains Warmaster is an interesting one, and I think we need to look at how he became Warmaster first. A couple of earlier replies in the thread have alluded to this (apologies for not naming those contributors - I just read through all 150+ posts in one go and didn't take notes), and I'll expand just a touch.

When Horus died, the traitors disengaged from battle on Terra and scattered. Over the next few years, the Imperial forces pursued and harried the traitors, who eventually found their way to the dark places of the galaxy - the Maelstrom, the Eye of Terror and suchlike.

The Sons of Horus were shattered and broken. The only traitor legion to have lost their Primarch, they were leaderless and directionless and, like the other legions, fell to infighting. Abaddon, now de facto leader of the Sons of Horus, secluded himself from his brothers, blaming himself for the Warmaster's death.

At the same time, a small group from across the legions banded together under a few charismatic individuals - Daemon-Fulgrim and Erebus were, in all likelihood, the leaders of this alliance.

They forged a daring plan which would return the Warmaster to them, and give them leadership and direction again. A lightning raid on the Vengeful Spirit allowed them to retrieve the corpse of Horus, and Apothecary Fabius set about cloning the Primarch.

When Abaddon discovered that Horus's body was gone, he was filled with purpose again. He ordered the Sons of Horus to paint their armour black and prepare for war. As one, the legion fell upon Fabius's cloning facilities and annihilated them. Abaddon himself destroyed the clones, and the Warmaster's body with them.

He would have taken his vendetta further and destroyed each of the legions that aided Fabius, but representatives of each of the traitor legions, desperate not to feel the wrath of this "Black Legion", reaffirmed their oaths of fealty, to Warmaster Abaddon, the heir of Horus.

(This is based on text from Codex: Chaos from 2nd edition, though expanded and with some artistic licence taken)

So...Abaddon took power over the traitor legions by force of arms and force of personality, and for ten millennia he has kept power by the same means.

As for the Black Crusades, we know from short fiction in the Codices, and also from Gordon Rennie's BFG novels, that he uses seers and witches to divine the right time for a Black Crusade. Each time the dark gods send him on a crusade (and the 13 listed on the Lexicanum page are his Black Crusades - there have been many like them, but those ones are HIS), something is achieved. As many have noted, the first led to Drach'nyen, the twelfth to Blackstone Fortresses, and so on. We may not know what each of these achievements were - yet - but that doesn't negate them.

(As an aside, there is some circumstantial evidence that at least some of Abaddon's crusades may have been orchestrated by forces other than the Chaos gods - the "golden-skinned daemon" could be the Deciever, and removing the Fortresses from the Gothic sector could only benefit the C'Tan - but that's a subject for another thread!)

Abaddon remains the favoured of the Gods, and refuses to ascend to daemonhood because his self-imposed task - to complete his father's work and see the Emperor dead at his feet - is not yet complete. As long as a majority of the warriors in the traitor legions want to see this happen, he will remain preeminent. He also commands the unswerving loyalty of his legion, which has increased in size beyond any other traitor legion as Abaddon has "recruited" using gene-seed from fallen legionnaires and stolen from loyal legions, forcibly implanted in prisoners taken in massive slave-raids.

To summarise, I will slightly misquote from Doctor Who: He's the bloody Warmaster, mate. Basically...he rules.

Reganator5000
26-11-2010, 11:30
the end of the EoT seemed pretty conclusive as i remember- the imperial forces were holding for now, but only barely and Abbadon had secured enough of a foothold that he could now actually attack out of the eye (reliably hitting stuff that was not the single most heavily fortified area in the galaxy).

Cadia itself isn't that important as long as the imperials don't realise that just nuking the pylons from orbit would close the only stable route out of the eye, and so make chaos' job much harder. (although that might make the eye expand?)
there's a reason the imperium don't just blow stuff up from orbit- cadia can't be a fortress if they kill use orbital bombardements to win the war. they aren't acurate/safe enough (thinking environmental destabilisation, lack of agriculture, unbreathable atmosphere etc.) to stop it also killing the population that provides a good chunk of the gates armed forces.

Abadon retains leadership maybe not because he is completely and utterly winning all the time, but because no on else could do better. chaos still had a massive manpower disadvantage (post-heresy- remembering they probably have several baneblades for each CSM in existence), as the guard in general is just so freaking big (the reason Horus drove straight for Terra instead of just fighting a normal war, and why the failure of that siege was so devastating).
Abbadon has seemingly worked to address this, and most chaos commanders probably know that they could not do much better, or that the only reason Abbadon is still breathing is because he is so physically strong.

Alamais
08-12-2010, 23:01
It’s interesting that many say Abaddon isn't a great leader because he hasn't sieged Terra in the years following the heresy.

Remember even Horus made a mad dash to try and conquer Terra rather than battle his way through the Imperium, and he had the support of other Primarch and entire legions with guard support.

Just something to keep in mind.