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MOMUS
24-08-2010, 19:37
I was wondering if it was 'fluffy' that marines pilot vehicles? In paticular support tanks and the like, it seems with all the time/resources/effort/training etc needed to create a SM they are almost wasted with 'mundane' tasks such as driving a tank around the place.*
There are 101 different ways a marine could better implement his fieldcraft, i think their potential is maybe ...squandered?
Prehaps they should be driven by hardwired servitors (+advanced targeters) or chapter serfs/aspirants? (or maybe a marine who wasnt quite heroic enough for a dread;) )
On another note isnt the position of crewman 'beneath' a noble, crusading, superhuman, knight of the emperor?




*For punishment brother xanos, you are condemned to rhino detail for 20 years!

SultanBaal
24-08-2010, 19:55
Yea it does seem odd that a Marine would pilot but they do. But Astartes can have a spot for driving around a tank or a Thunderhawk its the same with Marines that like to do Void warfare its just a fetish they have. The Ultramarines have a Tank Commander forgot his name tho.
But that may have to with reflexes, and commune with the machine spirit

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 19:59
I was wondering if it was 'fluffy' that marines pilot vehicles? In paticular support tanks and the like, it seems with all the time/resources/effort/training etc needed to create a SM they are almost wasted with 'mundane' tasks such as driving a tank around the place.*
There are 101 different ways a marine could better implement his fieldcraft, i think their potential is maybe ...squandered?
Prehaps they should be driven by hardwired servitors (+advanced targeters) or chapter serfs/aspirants? (or maybe a marine who wasnt quite heroic enough for a dread;) )
On another note isnt the position of crewman 'beneath' a noble, crusading, superhuman, knight of the emperor?




*For punishment brother xanos, you are condemned to rhino detail for 20 years!

I totally understand where you are coming from, but I don't really agree with it. Vehicle crews, just like their infantry support, need to be able to make fast and smart battlefield decisions. They need to be quick to reactive and more often than not preempt the opposition. The physical and psychological enhancements of Space Marine pilots, gunners, and crew help immensely in this regard.

Now, I do think that more menial tasks are relegated to servitors and human crews, but on the battlefield, a Space Marine infantry force would be much better served by a Space Marine-piloted vehicle.

Moreover, Space Marines are said to respect their vehicles almost as much as (and for some Chapters more so than) their battle brothers. If this is true, I would find it unrealistic to assume that sub-Astartes crew are allowed to handle the more important facets of operation.

mightymconeshot
24-08-2010, 20:05
In the space Wolves novel it talks about Ragnar thinking about wanting to join to take thunderhawk training once he reaches Grey Hunter status hinting that they may fly them.

Also (i know not very correct fluff wise) in Brother of the Snake they drove their own rhino.

I dont know of another books that have examples off the top of my head but there is precedent in black library so you could argue it either way.

SultanBaal
24-08-2010, 20:11
The only time i have realy seen serf realy drive a thunderhawk or a other type of vechicle was Talo's serf Septimus (from Soul Hunter) and he says the only reason he is allowed is cause there arnt enought marines to operate it.

Col. Tartleton
24-08-2010, 20:22
Its always been a grey area. It really depends on the army design. You might have two marines in the company as motor pool detail for each squad. They may be centralized as a Motorpool detachment of 100-300 marines. We don't really know. We would presume rhino chassis vehicles would have two-three crew, Land Raiders appear to have 3 or more.

Emperor knows where they're from.

You're talking 10 vehicles per company times at least two marines, plus a good six thunderhawks times a couple crew, plus the actual ships' crews which would be a hefty number of unaccounted marines.

1000 marines must remain as an estimate by Guilleman concerning the actual marine companies. Its going to be twice+ that all told presuming they're at any kind of strength.

mrln68
24-08-2010, 20:41
Most SM vehicles have a crew of 1...the Rhino and the variants which allow transport are all 1. The tank Rhinos and Land Raiders have a crew of 2. Land Speeders are 2 - though those generally don't fall into the vehicle category, since most the Chapter lists have them counted as part of the fighting force and not separate with the vehicles. Thunderchickens are 4. Thing is that most companies don't have nearly that many vehicles, and I doubt most chapters have nearly as many vehicles as well. Most the ship crews are not Space Marines either. Even the Smurfs only have 31 Thunderchickens to their name.

But - Marines do crew all their front line vehicles according to the various source books from GW and FW. Although it would likely make more sense to have a less valuable asset in that seat, they are not necessarily out anything. Crew may be made up of Marines in training (Techpriests/Librarians who aren't quite up to par), the injured reserve or those who are too old to be fully battle ready (there are hints to elderly SM dealing with various non-critical roles in the chapters). I am sure that there is probably a fair number of SM who have just gotten their foot bit off or something along those lines to crew the vehicles when it needs to be done.

FlashGordon
24-08-2010, 20:46
Its always been a grey area. It really depends on the army design. You might have two marines in the company as motor pool detail for each squad. They may be centralized as a Motorpool detachment of 100-300 marines. We don't really know. We would presume rhino chassis vehicles would have two-three crew, Land Raiders appear to have 3 or more.

Emperor knows where they're from.

You're talking 10 vehicles per company times at least two marines, plus a good six thunderhawks times a couple crew, plus the actual ships' crews which would be a hefty number of unaccounted marines.

1000 marines must remain as an estimate by Guilleman concerning the actual marine companies. Its going to be twice+ that all told presuming they're at any kind of strength.

Assuming of course that all vehicles have their own marines, and maybe not being crewed by the same 50(just took a random number) all the time.

chivalrous
24-08-2010, 20:47
Prehaps they should be driven by hardwired servitors (+advanced targeters) or chapter serfs/aspirants? (or maybe a marine who wasnt quite heroic enough for a dread;) )
On another note isnt the position of crewman 'beneath' a noble, crusading, superhuman, knight of the emperor?


If I remember correctly, in 2nd edition background, the tanks were crewed by servitors (or it could just be that I had a similar thought back then and stubbornly held on).

On the other hand, your punishment idea isn't a bad one, I'd also suggest that Marines that have been critically wounded in battle and haven't fully recovered to the point where they can run around, e.g. a marine who lost a leg and hasn't fully adapted to the bionics.

Col. Tartleton
24-08-2010, 20:51
Most SM vehicles have a crew of 1...the Rhino and the variants which allow transport are all 1. The tank Rhinos and Land Raiders have a crew of 2. Land Speeders are 2 - though those generally don't fall into the vehicle category, since most the Chapter lists have them counted as part of the fighting force and not separate with the vehicles. Thunderchickens are 4. Thing is that most companies don't have nearly that many vehicles, and I doubt most chapters have nearly as many vehicles as well. Most the ship crews are not Space Marines either. Even the Smurfs only have 31 Thunderchickens to their name.

But - Marines do crew all their front line vehicles according to the various source books from GW and FW. Although it would likely make more sense to have a less valuable asset in that seat, they are not necessarily out anything. Crew may be made up of Marines in training (Techpriests/Librarians who aren't quite up to par), the injured reserve or those who are too old to be fully battle ready (there are hints to elderly SM dealing with various non-critical roles in the chapters). I am sure that there is probably a fair number of SM who have just gotten their foot bit off or something along those lines to crew the vehicles when it needs to be done.

Well I stand corrected about pilot numbers on rhinos and stuff. Less marines as pilots, but still a lot of marines as pilots. I'm sure they'd have more pilots then they need but less then vehicles. Maybe 12-15 marines for every 10 they need. That way they can keep the armor running even if they take some casualties. That's still not counting the armor. In the scheme of things its still a few hundred guys all tallied up.

In order to deploy a battle company of 106 Marines you need the capability to insert 11 transports and four thunder hawks. That's 20 support.

Each strike cruiser would have at least that plus its own crew. So you're looking at several dozen marines per ship.



Assuming of course that all vehicles have their own marines, and maybe not being crewed by the same 50(just took a random number) all the time.

I'm not saying they wouldn't have X men for the vehicle pool. They'd certainly have more vehicles then men. I think a strike cruiser carries like 60 rhino chassis vehicles. They may only have 20 odd crew for them. We're forgetting that the Marines take everything with them. Every battle company would take a lot more stuff then they need because some of its going to break and while they can replace parts and fix tanks in house they don't have that kind of time during missions. There's probably enough replacement parts for armor and stuff to arm three marines. Remember its like 100 guys plus staff and crew on a three mile long spaceship.

MOMUS
24-08-2010, 21:18
Just to clarify this is a thread about whether marines SHOULD pilot tanks not whether they actually do or not.


The Ultramarines have a Tank Commander forgot his name tho.

Chronus. The notion of a crewman SC is a bit annoying, i would rather see more background due to an apothecary SC or the like. I wouldnt mind if tanks were driven by serfs/aspirants and overseen by a squadron commander who was SM proper.


Vehicle crews, just like their infantry support, need to be able to make fast and smart battlefield decisions. They need to be quick to reactive and more often than not preempt the opposition. The physical and psychological enhancements of Space Marine pilots, gunners, and crew help immensely in this regard.

Hardwired servitors are used (effectivley) in high speed interceptor aircraft, i cant see why they could not crew a tank and be just as capable.

Bloodknight
24-08-2010, 21:38
Hardwired servitors are used (effectivley) in high speed interceptor aircraft, i cant see why they could not crew a tank and be just as capable.

That's pretty much Chaos only, though - I guess you're alluding to the Helltalon and Hellblade (the Imperial Navy uses human pilots) and they are part daemon engines. It might be possible that the Dark Mechanicus has a way to create more effective Servitors than the AdMech - after all even some Chaos Titans are controlled by Servitors.

Askil the Undecided
24-08-2010, 23:26
What most of you seem to be neglecting that any given codex-ish chapter has roughly 400 reserve company marines plus 100-ish scouts who are allocated as detacthments to the other companies plenty to crew a large fleet of vehicles.

The Venerable Archmage
24-08-2010, 23:43
What most of you seem to be neglecting that any given codex-ish chapter has roughly 400 reserve company marines plus 100-ish scouts who are allocated as detacthments to the other companies plenty to crew a large fleet of vehicles.

Just what I was thinking. I couldn't give you a page reference, but I was pretty sure that tanks were piloted by marines drawn as necessary from the reserve companies.

MajorWesJanson
25-08-2010, 11:16
Given the appearance of the Chronus model, the Mechanicus pads for vehicle crews, and the repair ability of the Rhino, I'm fairly certain that most chapters use low to mid level Techmarines as vehicle crew. They are best suited to commune with the vehicle, and are the most technically inclined anyways. Perhaps marines that show an aptitude for technical skills are transferred to the motor pool and given basic training by Techmarines, and the crewmen are later sent to Mars for full Techmarine training.

Askil the Undecided
25-08-2010, 11:35
Given the appearance of the Chronus model, the Mechanicus pads for vehicle crews, and the repair ability of the Rhino, I'm fairly certain that most chapters use low to mid level Techmarines as vehicle crew. They are best suited to commune with the vehicle, and are the most technically inclined anyways. Perhaps marines that show an aptitude for technical skills are transferred to the motor pool and given basic training by Techmarines, and the crewmen are later sent to Mars for full Techmarine training.

While not entirely unlikely I think this might be overstating the point slightly. Rather like claiming that deathwatch are inquisitors because the wear the Ordo xenos crest.

The mechanicus shoudler pad might just be to designate them as tank crewmen in the same way as other tactical designation symbols seen on marines.

Leftenant Gashrog
25-08-2010, 13:01
Just what I was thinking. I couldn't give you a page reference, but I was pretty sure that tanks were piloted by marines drawn as necessary from the reserve companies.

The only source I know of is one of the un-numbered colour pages in the middle of Codex: Ultramarines - the page about the Tactical Reserve Companies stated that they also provided crews for independent armoured formations, thereby allowing a chapter to field entire companies of Predators or Land Raiders.

Polaria
25-08-2010, 13:15
Anyone driving a front-line combat-vehicle like a Rhino isn't just a "combat taxi-driver". Hell, he is the man responsible for keeping a whole tactical squad of marines alive while they are sitting at the back of the vehicle. He needs to be at least as fast and tactically smart as the tactical marine #5 with his bolter. Probably more so. It would make very little sense if Rhino wasn't driven by a marine.

Col. Tartleton
25-08-2010, 15:57
I'm pretty sure the tanks aren't driven by the reserve companies because none of them have that duty. There are two companies of tactical squads which specialize in biking and speeders respectively. Then the eight specialize in assault and the ninth is ranged specialists and the tenth are a pseudo company of scouts. The ratio is such that the four reserve companies roughly mirror the four battle companies. 200 tacticals 100 assault, 100 devastators instead of 240 tacticals, 80 assault, and 80 devastators. (plus commands and stuff) basically there are enough reserve to keep them going equally well at 50% casualties. If those are pilots then you're actually severely hampering yourself. Then the first company is a hardened core of 100 veterans who are either specialized into a vanguard/stern guard or train for both and deploy as either and do likewise in TDA as either assault or tactical terminators.

The armor and APCs are coming from somewhere else.

Mike_the_magi
25-08-2010, 16:10
Anyone driving a front-line combat-vehicle like a Rhino isn't just a "combat taxi-driver". Hell, he is the man responsible for keeping a whole tactical squad of marines alive while they are sitting at the back of the vehicle. He needs to be at least as fast and tactically smart as the tactical marine #5 with his bolter. Probably more so. It would make very little sense if Rhino wasn't driven by a marine.

I agree with this! It fits my view of it perfectly. Also, it means that if Bob the Space marine driver is taken out of action by a stray round penetrating the hull then any one of said Tactical squad could have the cabability to take over and get the squad moving again.

A thought which just struck me.... perhaps some of the vehicles are driven by scouts. I mean scouts get trained in everything they need to be a Marine and there are scouts who drive bikes and landspeeders into battle, so why not Scouts on their Vehicle training rotation?

Sai-Lauren
25-08-2010, 16:22
Unfortunatly, there are instances where a Chapter has deployed in full (Armageddon for example), and they're still able to drive around, have full access to Armoured assets and so on. Plus there's chapters with non-codex formations (Space Wolves, Black Templars) that don't have reserve companies to drive vehicles around.

I did some figures on what I'd consider a chapter would have a while back (should be searchable), but IIRC, there's about 800 additional Marines (command staff, specialists, transport pool, fleet command, pilots etc) that the "1,000 Marines" just can't account for, else you just about get the 1st company and a few squads in the 2nd as infantry.

spetswalshe
25-08-2010, 18:16
This is one of the many things that irks me about Space Marines. A Rhino driver needs to be damn good at driving, maintaining and repairing a Rhino - but he doesn't need to be able to spit acid. It's also pretty silly that he would be sitting in his METAL BOXES while wearing power armour, when for the same amount of space and additional power usage you could have another guy there with a minigun. Frankly I imagine most Marines would consider being taken off frontline combat duty in order to drive a battletaxi to be rather insulting. My homebrew Chapter uses a combination of Chapter serf tech-adepts and failed Aspirants (the Black Sun Chapter never wastes an Aspirant, and certainly doesn't make them kill each other in late-stage trials) for all roles lower than tank commander.


That's pretty much Chaos only, though - I guess you're alluding to the Helltalon and Hellblade (the Imperial Navy uses human pilots) and they are part daemon engines. It might be possible that the Dark Mechanicus has a way to create more effective Servitors than the AdMech - after all even some Chaos Titans are controlled by Servitors.

Imperial Navy aircraft use hardwired servitors as navigators, on-board computers and the like. I wouldn't expect a servitor to be reliable enough to use in battle, but it makes sense that they would serve the same functions as an autopilot - able to take off, land or keep course, as long as nothing fancy is required (like dodging lasers). I've always assumed Astartes ground vehicles don't use them because they have the advantage of advanced machine-spirit limited AI cores that make servitors obsolete.

MOMUS
25-08-2010, 20:35
This is one of the many things that irks me about Space Marines. A Rhino driver needs to be damn good at driving, maintaining and repairing a Rhino - but he doesn't need to be able to spit acid. It's also pretty silly that he would be sitting in his METAL BOXES while wearing power armour, when for the same amount of space and additional power usage you could have another guy there with a minigun. Frankly I imagine most Marines would consider being taken off frontline combat duty in order to drive a battletaxi to be rather insulting. My homebrew Chapter uses a combination of Chapter serf tech-adepts and failed Aspirants (the Black Sun Chapter never wastes an Aspirant, and certainly doesn't make them kill each other in late-stage trials) for all roles lower than tank commander.

This. I would think it would be even more insulting for the marine who draws the short straw and gets whirlwind duty.
Your home brew chapter echo my thoughts exactly.

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 21:14
This is one of the many things that irks me about Space Marines. A Rhino driver needs to be damn good at driving, maintaining and repairing a Rhino - but he doesn't need to be able to spit acid. It's also pretty silly that he would be sitting in his METAL BOXES while wearing power armour, when for the same amount of space and additional power usage you could have another guy there with a minigun. Frankly I imagine most Marines would consider being taken off frontline combat duty in order to drive a battletaxi to be rather insulting. My homebrew Chapter uses a combination of Chapter serf tech-adepts and failed Aspirants (the Black Sun Chapter never wastes an Aspirant, and certainly doesn't make them kill each other in late-stage trials) for all roles lower than tank commander.

How does that apply to Techmarines, who largely forgo direct combat to handle weapon-crafting, wargear and vehicle maintenance, and IT support? Or Apothecaries who have to spend more time performing surgery and extracting gene-seed? Do they consider their positions an insult?

If anything, a Space Marine pilot sees far more action than they do. He is on the front lines, taking on entire enemy squads, vehicles, and monsters. Space Marines are a mobile force- it's not like the guard where so much of the armored support is ordnance.

As for a tank commander not requiring the ability to spit acid, I think that point is largely irrelevant. What is relevant is that a Space Marine with a talent for operating vehicles and gun emplacements is far more useful than any pre-programmed servitor, and they can't change the transformation process just because they think recruit A will make a good pilot. Same goes for the power armor. The power armor has all kinds of useful features that, with the right modification, can work wonders in interfacing with a vehicle command computer.

J-rock
25-08-2010, 22:01
I'm pretty sure the tanks aren't driven by the reserve companies because none of them have that duty.

...

The armor and APCs are coming from somewhere else.

The current SM codex states the the reserve companies are assigned that duty, page 18 IIRC. The reserve companies are able to be employed en masse as large armoured formations.

There is an interesting reference to vehicle crews mentioned in Chronos' blurb, though no one has mentioned it. Perhaps no one has bothered to read it! It stated that Chronos is in charge of approximately 50 marines who are assigned full-time vehicle crew duty. It is implied that these full-timers are supplemented by other marines assigned on an ad-hoc basis, most likely from the reserve companies going by the information given above.

At no point is it implied that it is considered a dishonour to be assigned to a vehicle crew on a permanent basis, quite the opposite. Reference is made to the challenge that it presents marine to switch their focus to armoured warfare from their traditional role. Reference is also made to vehicle crews' ability to jury-rig their vehicles and perform battle-field repairs.

My take is that all marines progress through the devastator, assault, tactical line through the reserve companies. By this point they have had training and battle-field experience in everything marines do, including time as vehicle crews. Upon completing their time in the tactical reserve companies they are then assigned somewhere else on a more permanent basis dependent on their skills and preferences: As an assault, devastator or tactical marine in one of the battle companies, perhaps assigned to vehicle or flight crews, or inducted full-time into the techmarines, apothecaries or librarians.

spetswalshe
26-08-2010, 01:13
As for a tank commander not requiring the ability to spit acid, I think that point is largely irrelevant. What is relevant is that a Space Marine with a talent for operating vehicles and gun emplacements is far more useful than any pre-programmed servitor, and they can't change the transformation process just because they think recruit A will make a good pilot. Same goes for the power armor. The power armor has all kinds of useful features that, with the right modification, can work wonders in interfacing with a vehicle command computer.

A Space Marine with a talent for operating vehicles and gun emplacements, in my opinion, just isn't going to be that much better than a human - certainly not enough to warrant the decades of training in skills that are mostly irrelevant. Take a skilled human, give him the relevant bionics and training and you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. A Marine's physical strength and speed will be irrelevant, given the gun is mounted (granted, he may load it a few seconds quicker, if it isn't autoloaded), and his heightened senses - including those provided by the power armour - will be no better than those available through appropriate bionic; assuming, of course, that he isn't working mostly through the vehicle's pict-screen anyway. Power armour is itself immensely expensive, and I just don't see the point in providing a tank driver with assisted speed or strength. The only reason for a Marine driver, in my opinion, is to avoid cross-supply requirements - a serf driver would require different food from his Marine passengers, for example, though again bionics and biomanipulation can overcome such things. Just picture a skilled Skitarii soldier; not dumb like a servitor, dedicated and skilled at his job, and completely within a Chapter's budget.

For the record, I would presume an Apothecary is a front-line combatant, seeing as his job will be mostly a split between battlefield geneseed extraction/first aid and overseeing medicae servitors and technology - not including preparation and suchlike, that would occur before the regular Marines actually enter combat. I would expect him to spend much of his time fighting just like a regular Marine, like a normal infantry combat medic. Techmarines have a less situation-dependent role, and their induction into the AdMech cult means they're likely to consider service to the Omnissiah as equally important as smiting the Emperor's foes.

Col. Tartleton
26-08-2010, 02:07
When the tank breaks down it would be nice to have someone who can still do something. Every marine is a rifleman. Everyone they take with them should be able to help achieve the mission. A driver is an 11th man for your squad if the tank is disabled. If he was just a serf he'd be a liability who couldn't keep up or work with them.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
26-08-2010, 03:03
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/i...howarticle=291

Good article overall, but there is a section that speculates on where vehicle crews come from.

Askil the Undecided
26-08-2010, 03:07
A Space Marine with a talent for operating vehicles and gun emplacements, in my opinion, just isn't going to be that much better than a human - certainly not enough to warrant the decades of training in skills that are mostly irrelevant. Take a skilled human, give him the relevant bionics and training and you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. A Marine's physical strength and speed will be irrelevant, given the gun is mounted (granted, he may load it a few seconds quicker, if it isn't autoloaded), and his heightened senses - including those provided by the power armour - will be no better than those available through appropriate bionic; assuming, of course, that he isn't working mostly through the vehicle's pict-screen anyway. Power armour is itself immensely expensive, and I just don't see the point in providing a tank driver with assisted speed or strength. The only reason for a Marine driver, in my opinion, is to avoid cross-supply requirements - a serf driver would require different food from his Marine passengers, for example, though again bionics and biomanipulation can overcome such things. Just picture a skilled Skitarii soldier; not dumb like a servitor, dedicated and skilled at his job, and completely within a Chapter's budget.

This is absolute rubbish, a fully trained Marine is an all-round soldier, capable of fulfulling almost any combat role required of him. He can have hundreds of years of experience learning every little trick of optimising his battlefield performance.

This is the point of Space Marines. Super soldiers who can live long enough to reach a level of refined perfection in just about any task they might be given far beyond any other force simply by virtue of their enhanced nature.

You propose that to deploy a hardwired servitor or an unecessarily bionically enhanced human to pilot SM tanks.

Not only does that mean that a fully trained SM is not longer a true all rounder (effectively decreasing the usefulness of each and every marine.)

It also means that SM vehicles suddenly have a crew that have an effective operating lifetime of fourty to sixy years (rather than two hundred and eighty plus.)

These crews will require survial gear (that is incorparated in SM power armour/implants) to be able to function in the same places as SM.

They will need sleep (unlike SM.)

Unmodded humans cannot generally survive SM deployment measures due to rough treatment (drop pods and the like.)

They wouldn't be able to rely on a SM enhanced abilities to compensate for when their tank's systems breaks down in battle.

They wouldn't have black carapace standard neural interfaces for communing with the machine spirit.

Most importantly it makes a SM army no longer a self supporting force of Battle Astartes Brothers it make them a group of astartes infantry and an Imperial Guard armour section in shoddy oversized light tanks.

MajorWesJanson
26-08-2010, 10:33
While not entirely unlikely I think this might be overstating the point slightly. Rather like claiming that deathwatch are inquisitors because the wear the Ordo xenos crest.

The mechanicus shoudler pad might just be to designate them as tank crewmen in the same way as other tactical designation symbols seen on marines.

Not inquisitors, but they are agents of the Inquisition while they serve in the Deathwatch. And I doubt that the Mechanicus would approve using their insignia just as a symbol for truck drivers...

Sai-Lauren
26-08-2010, 11:41
Who drives the Rhinos could be a case of pick-the-chapter.

Some might use those who've just left the scouts and recently become full marines.
Some might have those who're on the command track, as the step between normal battle brother and sergeant.
Some might effectively have 11 marines to a squad and rotate around.
Some might allow marines to specialise in driving, thus becoming part of the company command structure.
Some might make it a pre-requisite step for those who're going to become Techmarines.
Some chapters might make it a punishment for minor infractions.

But all we're sure of is that they're all called Brother Stig. :D

RCgothic
26-08-2010, 11:50
I don't doubt that a Space Marine COULD Drive a Rhino effectively, but there's no reason a serf/servitor couldn't do the job just as well, in less space, freeing the power-armoured superman to do something that requires a power armoured superman more than sitting in an armoured box does.

Apothecaries and Tech Marines need to be marines because they operate in the same situations regular marines do. Pilots don't.

Fact of the matter is, that in a chapter where geneseed and power armour are limited, the one which delegates driving vehicles to non-marines is going to have a larger force to bring to bear than one that doesn't.

MajorWesJanson
26-08-2010, 11:52
But all we're sure of is that they're all called Brother Stig. :D

Land Raiders are of course driven by Kren and Frep, and sometimes Harkon too.

Sai-Lauren
26-08-2010, 13:04
I don't doubt that a Space Marine COULD Drive a Rhino effectively, but there's no reason a serf/servitor couldn't do the job just as well, in less space, freeing the power-armoured superman to do something that requires a power armoured superman more than sitting in an armoured box does.

For Servitors, there'll be situations that their programming won't be able to handle, whilst an intelligent driver would be able to improvise something much more easily.

And Askil covered why Serfs aren't necessarily a good idea.

Plus the driver can get up on the pintle weapons to add support fire, possibly run out to the squad with additional munitions or a medical kit if required, talk on comms to update command or act as a comms relay station in high EM environments, maybe even open up a more powerful tactical console (not up to Damocles/ Prometheus standards, but better than anything in a suit of Power Armour) and supply extra information to the sergeant. All of which would potentially be better done by a marine than an unaugmented serf.



Land Raiders are of course driven by Kren and Frep, and sometimes Harkon too.

Well, when Harkon's not cleaning out the latrine.

I miss Turn Signals...

Bubble Ghost
26-08-2010, 14:49
Purely logically, it does seem a waste of a marine, and there are probably those chapters who get others to do it, but on the whole it's probably a status thing. Driving a Rhino is still a combat role, and for marines, their abilities and armour are symbolic as much as they are practical.

Where it starts to make less sense is how we use them in games. "Right, drop us off here, Brother Septimus. Good, now go and park right in front of that heavy weapon squad so they can't see us! Thanks, see you back at base! Probably!"

RCgothic
26-08-2010, 14:57
This is the point of Space Marines. Super soldiers who can live long enough to reach a level of refined perfection in just about any task they might be given far beyond any other force simply by virtue of their enhanced nature.


You propose that to deploy a hardwired servitor or an unecessarily bionically enhanced human to pilot SM tanks.

Not only does that mean that a fully trained SM is not longer a true all rounder (effectively decreasing the usefulness of each and every marine.)

So what? Just because they don't pilot vehicles doesn't mean they can't. There's still Landspeeders and Bikes that require a marine pilot.

It also means that SM vehicles suddenly have a crew that have an effective operating lifetime of fourty to sixy years (rather than two hundred and eighty plus.)

Not necessarily a problem.

These crews will require survial gear (that is incorparated in SM power armour/implants) to be able to function in the same places as SM.

Rhinos, Land Raiders and Thunderhawks have enclosed drivers compartments, seperate from the troop bay.

They will need sleep (unlike SM.)

With Stims and bionics, you're probably talking 100+ hours combat effective without sleep. Servitors longer even than marines could manage.

Unmodded humans cannot generally survive SM deployment measures due to rough treatment (drop pods and the like.)

Vehicles aren't deployed by drop pod.

They wouldn't be able to rely on a SM enhanced abilities to compensate for when their tank's systems breaks down in battle.

Not much a marine would be able to do in those circumstances that a serf couldn't. Perhaps one of the 10 armoured supermen in the back could lend a hand lifting the rhino out the ditch?

They wouldn't have black carapace standard neural interfaces for communing with the machine spirit.

Neither do Imperial tank commanders or titan princeps. Even if a link is a requirement, Black Carapace isn't.

Most importantly it makes a SM army no longer a self supporting force of Battle Astartes Brothers it make them a group of astartes infantry and an Imperial Guard armour section in shoddy oversized light tanks.

They are already this. You think they crew their 3km Starships themselves?


A full strength chapter crewing its own tanks and gunships would be short 280 marines compared to one that didn't. (assuming 2 crewmen per vehicle, 3 thunderhawks and 11 rhinos per company) That's 75% effectiveness.

Sai-Lauren
26-08-2010, 15:15
A full strength chapter crewing its own tanks and gunships would be short 280 marines compared to one that didn't. (assuming 2 crewmen per vehicle, 3 thunderhawks and 11 rhinos per company) That's 75% effectiveness.
As I said above, by the time you figure in command staff, specialists etc, they're short something like eight companies worth of marines. ;)

Here we go (it was in a thread about non-Marines in a chapter) http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900311&postcount=35

But to quote myself from that post:

"If we say that a Marine is any person who fits the description of Homo Sapiens Astartes, and serves in one of the company squads (effectively anyone with the rank of Scout, Marine or Sergeant), then, with a minor feat of liquistics, we walk around the issue completely - we have 1000 marines in 10 companies of 10 squad of 10 marines (or 20 of 5 in the 1st and 10th), and all the specialists, drivers, fleet crews and officers sit outside that - the chapter itself consists of about 2000 combat ready men with Astartes enhancements."

SharpSilver
26-08-2010, 15:47
Depends on the vehicle & Depends on the size of the Chapter

Do they have the size to be able to 'allocate' Marines to Pilot vehicles? Some chapters are quite small, and if every Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider/Thunderhawk was operated by a Space Marine, it would equal to a disproportionate amount of Marines being used for simply operating vehicles and machines of war compared to those on the Battlefield, e.g. Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, Assault Squads etc

The larger Chapters might be able to pull it off with allowing Space Marines to Pilot vehicles, for example, the Space Wolves, where it's in the fluff that Grey Hunters operate Thunderhawk gunships and transporters and other vehicles, and the Black Templars, but the others I'm not sure about.

I imagine the Chapters which don't have the manpower to allocate Marines to Piloting/Operating duties probably use civilian personnel to manage these machines on the battlefield, or servitors.

MajorWesJanson
26-08-2010, 15:52
One useful reason for having vehicle being crewed by Astartes- it lets a chapter get around Codex limitations on size.

"What do you mean we have 300 more Astartes than allowed? They drive our vehicles. Well, yes they are fully trained in combat, but that is just in case the vehicle is wrecked. Of course we'd never organize them to form extra squads or companies of troops if needed, why would you even think that?"


Actually, thinking about that, I may add it to my background fluff...

Col. Tartleton
26-08-2010, 16:16
Inquisitor: "What do you mean you have 10,000 scouts? I can understand the need for drivers but really?"

Calgar: "Well we don't actually use them... besides you said marines. They lack the full geneseed package and armor. They're just our lackeys. You know, like Robin. He didn't actually do anything he just kept Batman company. If anything he hurt Batman's effectiveness by getting into dangerous situations. Its a totally innocent logistical thing. "

Inquisitor: "Innocence proves nothing."

Calgar: "Have you met my good friend Varro Tigurius?"

Inquisitor: "No I haven't."

Calgar: "So like I said totally innocent."

Tigurius: "You saw nothing. If you tell anyone, so help me I'll cut you into pieces and keep you alive and in constant magnified agony with my powers until I get bored and throw your souls to the rabid demons of the warp!"

Inquisitor: "Quite." *turns to his retinue* "Nothing to see here. Totally codex approved."

AndrewGPaul
27-08-2010, 07:26
When the tank breaks down it would be nice to have someone who can still do something. Every marine is a rifleman. Everyone they take with them should be able to help achieve the mission. A driver is an 11th man for your squad if the tank is disabled. If he was just a serf he'd be a liability who couldn't keep up or work with them.

There's also the opposite; if vehicles are driven by Marines, then if the driver gets hit, another Marine can get in and drive instead. If, as some eople suggest, the Rhinos were driven by serfs or servitors, a round through the viewport means ten Marines have to walk home. As it is, if the driver buys it, Brother Jones can hop in and drive instead.

Lupe
27-08-2010, 19:45
Apothecaries and Tech Marines need to be marines because they operate in the same situations regular marines do. Pilots don't.

What if this would be a way to circumvent the limits of the Codex Astartes?
It would certainly make a lot more sense to train marines as "dedicated" drivers if they didn't count towards the 1000 battle-brothers limit...

RCgothic
27-08-2010, 21:09
What if this would be a way to circumvent the limits of the Codex Astartes?
It would certainly make a lot more sense to train marines as "dedicated" drivers if they didn't count towards the 1000 battle-brothers limit...

Because there are other ways around the limit that don't leave the equivalent force of an entire battalion of guardsmen sitting in a rhino doing nothing that couldn't be done by a chapter serf.

Mike_the_magi
27-08-2010, 21:37
There's also the opposite; if vehicles are driven by Marines, then if the driver gets hit, another Marine can get in and drive instead. If, as some eople suggest, the Rhinos were driven by serfs or servitors, a round through the viewport means ten Marines have to walk home. As it is, if the driver buys it, Brother Jones can hop in and drive instead.

Great minds think alike eh? I had that thought a while back :)

Hellebore
29-08-2010, 02:43
I imagine that the crew would provide covering fire for their transported unit by popping a hatch and pulling out their emergency bolter (or just using the storm bolter).

If when assaulting a vehicle the crew could attack too then you might see more of a difference. The marine coming out and punching the orks to death...

Mainly though I think it's to get the tank BS4...

Hellebore

Griffindale
29-08-2010, 04:24
Few points to think about:
1. Possible interfaces between the black carapace of a space marine and vehicle machine spirit
2. Already super improved reflexes of a marine
3. I believe the vehicle corps is a separate part of the chapter. You know like the command staff.

Lyonator
29-08-2010, 05:01
Marine crews are also a good excuse to keep the points cost of land speeders down, with the ridiculousness of power armor counteracting the open topped rule.

just wish that my veterans would provide a crew for their chimera from within their own command structure
(BS3 vehicles in an all veteran army make me sad)

TheLaughingGod
29-08-2010, 23:49
Why should anything preclude Space Marines from driving vehicles? They have superior physical tolerances, reflexes, coordination and perception as well as honed combat instincts. Why shouldn't every Marine have experience driving a Rhino or firing a Predator Autocannon? They go through years of training as Devastators, Assault Marines, etc. By the time they're Tactical Squads they're more or less cross-trained in all wargear. Why wouldn't that include Land Raiders, Whirlwinds and Vindicators? Marines in the Assault Reserve company are trained in piloting Land Speeders and Bikes. Why should tanks and other amoured vehicles be any difference? IIRC, Thunderhawks are piloted by Scouts (Look at the Forgeworld model)

It would make sense if basic driving duties are handled by Scouts in most vehicles while a Battle brother offers command and handles weapons and advanced battle-field maintenance. Though I'm sure it could be flexible to fit the situation. If you need 10 Rhino drivers, and you don't have any scouts on hand, I'm sure you can find Marines willing to take on the duty to deliver their brothers safely to the front.

I don't see where this is coming from, honestly. Why should vehicles be piloted by inferior soldiers? Why would Marines want to be supported by servitor or serf commanded warmachines? Were I a Captain, I'd pick Chronus to lead my armoured column over Hardwired Servitor-492400-44b any day of the week. It's just better knowing a trusted battle-brother is backing you up, rather than some mindless drone.

I think the perception is that Marines can only be boots with guns is really narrow minded and unfortunately unscores the childish and immature view of marines as "KNIGHTS IN SPAAAAAACE" rather than a cadre of elite veteran warriors skilled in all the weapons at their disposal.

Polaria
30-08-2010, 04:38
I think the perception is that Marines can only be boots with guns is really narrow minded and unfortunately unscores the childish and immature view of marines as "KNIGHTS IN SPAAAAAACE" rather than a cadre of elite veteran warriors skilled in all the weapons at their disposal.

Marines ARE Knights-in-Space. However, even knights did ride their own horses into battle. ;)

Seriously speaking, driving a combat vehicle into the thick of an assault is not something you leave for unskilled and weak of mind. Considering that said combat vehicle (Rhino) might be packed with up to 10 marines with all their equipment NOT having the absolute best of the best (another Marine) piloting such vehicle would be insane, stupid and possibly lead to disastrous loss of the vehicle and the 10 marines.

TrooperTino
30-08-2010, 11:21
Before reading this thread I thought it odd that SM vehicles arn't driven by servitors or augmented veteran chapter serfs.
Now I think that would be to weak a part in the chain. A marine can only trust another marine to keep an equal high level of performance during long combats.
But dedicated drivers shouldn't count towards the 1000 marines mark. Maybe there are around 100-200 drivers/gunners included in the command staff, with every other marine in the reserve able to pilot vehicles, too, iff more are needed.

LexxBomb
30-08-2010, 14:03
Why should anything preclude Space Marines from driving vehicles? They have superior physical tolerances, reflexes, coordination and perception as well as honed combat instincts. Why shouldn't every Marine have experience driving a Rhino or firing a Predator Autocannon? They go through years of training as Devastators, Assault Marines, etc. By the time they're Tactical Squads they're more or less cross-trained in all wargear. Why wouldn't that include Land Raiders, Whirlwinds and Vindicators? Marines in the Assault Reserve company are trained in piloting Land Speeders and Bikes. Why should tanks and other amoured vehicles be any difference? IIRC, Thunderhawks are piloted by Scouts (Look at the Forgeworld model)


and we have seen published images and texts from GW with marines piloting the thunderhawks as well at Titans... maybe the guys at forge world stuffed up, heck Heavy Metal stuffed up and painted Cypher green forcing GW to spend over a decade trying to retcon him into wearing green.

personally I do not like the version in which a marine is trained as a devastator then assault and then tactical...it was better before when they started off as scout and then tactical and they could specialize.

mrln68
30-08-2010, 14:19
IIRC, Thunderhawks are piloted by Scouts (Look at the Forgeworld model)

Huh? Why would wearing scout armor make you a scout? It would be more likely that they wear light armor when piloting vehicles like the Thunderchicken where they are not likely to need the extra bulk of Power Armor, but it would actually get in the way of doing there job. While I haven't been in a Thunderchicken myself, I have spent a lot of time in military aircraft prior to retiring...and you often have to bend and contort yourself to get from one area to another. Hard suits of any form would get in the way. Scout armor would let them have improved mobility while still having some level of protection if they need to leave the cockpit area during deployments.

Leftenant Gashrog
31-08-2010, 01:29
... maybe the guys at forge world stuffed up, heck Heavy Metal stuffed up and painted Cypher green forcing GW to spend over a decade trying to retcon him into wearing green.


Allegedly if you ask Rick Priestly he says the Dark Angels change from black to green was mean't to be retroactive. Certainly their pre-heresy colour was listed as green in Codex Imperialis. Also the first green 40k scale DA were in the joint UM/BA/DA article in WD129 -and the concept sketches for the Ultramarine scheme from that article show that it was originally meant to be mid-heresy.

RCgothic
31-08-2010, 06:58
Why should anything preclude Space Marines from driving vehicles? They have superior physical tolerances, reflexes, coordination and perception as well as honed combat instincts. Why shouldn't every Marine have experience driving a Rhino or firing a Predator Autocannon? They go through years of training as Devastators, Assault Marines, etc. By the time they're Tactical Squads they're more or less cross-trained in all wargear. Why wouldn't that include Land Raiders, Whirlwinds and Vindicators? Marines in the Assault Reserve company are trained in piloting Land Speeders and Bikes. Why should tanks and other amoured vehicles be any difference? IIRC, Thunderhawks are piloted by Scouts (Look at the Forgeworld model)

It would make sense if basic driving duties are handled by Scouts in most vehicles while a Battle brother offers command and handles weapons and advanced battle-field maintenance. Though I'm sure it could be flexible to fit the situation. If you need 10 Rhino drivers, and you don't have any scouts on hand, I'm sure you can find Marines willing to take on the duty to deliver their brothers safely to the front.

I don't see where this is coming from, honestly. Why should vehicles be piloted by inferior soldiers? Why would Marines want to be supported by servitor or serf commanded warmachines? Were I a Captain, I'd pick Chronus to lead my armoured column over Hardwired Servitor-492400-44b any day of the week. It's just better knowing a trusted battle-brother is backing you up, rather than some mindless drone.

I think the perception is that Marines can only be boots with guns is really narrow minded and unfortunately unscores the childish and immature view of marines as "KNIGHTS IN SPAAAAAACE" rather than a cadre of elite veteran warriors skilled in all the weapons at their disposal.

It's not that Marines couldn't drive rhinos, I'm sure the'd be extremely efficient at it. But a single-occuptation trained serf or single-task programmed servitor is going to be very nearly as good, and doesn't tie up 1/4 of your chapter strength in menial duties.

You know what the 6th Company of the Ultrahawks Chapter is doing whilst the 6th Companies of these do-everything Chapters are chauffering for the 1st-5th Companies fighting Eldar on Perdus Prime? They're off figthing orks on Armageddon, or delivering a flank attack.

OK, Thunderhawks you can just about spare the manpower for and not go too far into ridiculous flaunting of the Codex Astartes limits on numbers. But there is no way that you can have marines driving rhinos without employing trickery and chicanery with the definitions of what a marine is and still stick to the limit.

AndrewGPaul
31-08-2010, 07:48
Allegedly if you ask Rick Priestly he says the Dark Angels change from black to green was mean't to be retroactive. Certainly their pre-heresy colour was listed as green in Codex Imperialis. Also the first green 40k scale DA were in the joint UM/BA/DA article in WD129 -and the concept sketches for the Ultramarine scheme from that article show that it was originally meant to be mid-heresy.

They were certainly green by the time they were shown on the side of the 1st edition Space Marine game box.

Not sure about that WD article you mention; I'll need to go and check, but I don't recall it mentioning Heresy campaigns.

Leftenant Gashrog
31-08-2010, 10:07
Not sure about that WD article you mention; I'll need to go and check, but I don't recall it mentioning Heresy campaigns.

The finished article in WD129 was purely modern, however the concept sketch for the Ultramarine scheme was published in WD346: the company colours were numbered Battalion 1-3/Company 1-3* (which means it was intended for the Pre/Mid-Heresy Astartes Regimental system from WD126) whilst 2 of the four campaign badges were the general Horus Heresy and Mars campaign.

* which explains why the finished article gave the 10th company no colour and also explains why the Blood Angels in the same article used 3 colours and 1-3 skulls/drops.

Sai-Lauren
31-08-2010, 11:34
3. I believe the vehicle corps is a separate part of the chapter. You know like the command staff.

I personally place the Chapters Armour (Predators, Land Raiders, Whirlwinds etc) as effectively a separate company, but Transport (Rhinos, Razorbacks) would be at Company level.

AndrewGPaul
31-08-2010, 13:49
The finished article in WD129 was purely modern, however the concept sketch for the Ultramarine scheme was published in WD346:

I'll need to take a look at that article. Why were they reprinting early drafts of 18-year-old articles?

Leftenant Gashrog
31-08-2010, 20:18
I'll need to take a look at that article. Why were they reprinting early drafts of 18-year-old articles?

Its was a filler article detailing the evolution of space marines from RT to modern day (it was the month the 5th edition codex came out), the uniform sketch as simply one of the bits of art. I believe the reviews of the time called the article a waste of space but I snatched the issue up purely for that pic.

Col. Tartleton
01-09-2010, 11:45
It's not that Marines couldn't drive rhinos, I'm sure the'd be extremely efficient at it. But a single-occuptation trained serf or single-task programmed servitor is going to be very nearly as good, and doesn't tie up 1/4 of your chapter strength in menial duties.

You know what the 6th Company of the Ultrahawks Chapter is doing whilst the 6th Companies of these do-everything Chapters are chauffering for the 1st-5th Companies fighting Eldar on Perdus Prime? They're off figthing orks on Armageddon, or delivering a flank attack.

OK, Thunderhawks you can just about spare the manpower for and not go too far into ridiculous flaunting of the Codex Astartes limits on numbers. But there is no way that you can have marines driving rhinos without employing trickery and chicanery with the definitions of what a marine is and still stick to the limit.

Its not a problem. They'd only ever deploy at partial strength unless they deployed at full strength. The standard deployment is five companies in the field, five in reserve, and probably five companies worth of support. But they need another couple companies to put the second five into the field simultaneously. The 1000 Marines scales down your fighting force to under 300-600 marines when we know its 500-1000.

RCgothic
01-09-2010, 12:32
It only scales it down if you insist on having Astartes performing menial tasks. Yes, there will be some marines over and above the 1000 limit, but when you start making it into several extra companies, you're just making a mockery, especially when the best use and entire point of a marine is doing stuff that can't be done by anyone else.

Sai-Lauren
01-09-2010, 14:35
It only scales it down if you insist on having Astartes performing menial tasks. Yes, there will be some marines over and above the 1000 limit, but when you start making it into several extra companies, you're just making a mockery, especially when the best use and entire point of a marine is doing stuff that can't be done by anyone else.

Depends on what the Codex Astartes actually says.

If it says a Marine chapter shall consist of no more than 1,000 individuals with Astartes biological enhancements and training, then yes, they have a serious problem about doing what they should be able to do.

If it says a Marine chapter shall consist of a 1st Company of a maximum of 100 of the best warriors in the chapter plus command and support assets, 8 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines plus command and support, 1 scout company of a maximum of 100, plus fleet, armour, dreadnoughts, Chapter command and specialists, or shall have a fighting strength of 1,000 Marines (with support then further detailed), then a chapter could easily hit 1500-2000 "Marines", yet still be well within the codex rules.

It's like saying that a Football team only consists of the 11 players on the pitch and the subs - when there's also those unpicked for that match or injured, the youth team, reserves, manager, coaches and trainers (most of whom are ex-pros) and so on.

Although admittedly, Steven Gerrard doesn't drive the Liverpool team bus. ;)

J-rock
01-09-2010, 18:17
It only scales it down if you insist on having Astartes performing menial tasks.

This seems to be the point that we just can't agree on. Several people have already given very good explanations as to why they think that using Marines as vehicle and flight crews is not a menial task. You and a few others disagree. The discussions seems to be orbiting about this point and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

For what it's worth, I don't think that it is a menial task. Using serfs or servitors as vehicle crew is a liability and a risk that no marine commander would willingly take.

That said, they still rely on Navigators to pilot their space ships and Astropaths to carry their messages.

AndrewGPaul
01-09-2010, 20:54
IIRC, Thunderhawks are piloted by Scouts (Look at the Forgeworld model)

Someone who actually owns one can confirm one way or the other, but looking at the photos on the Forge World website, the pilots aren't in Scout armour; they're wearing Power Armour with no shoulder pads. The seatbacks seem to have the same socket connections as the power armour backpack.

Sternguard777
04-09-2010, 20:01
In the book version of DoW 2 the Thuderhawks were piloted by scouts, and in the game your techmarine says he'll fly thunderhawk 2 for the final battle.

Malice313
05-09-2010, 08:00
Driving the holy Rhino into battle and maintaining and appeasing it's machine spirit is the highest of sacred duties, not a mundane task.

slaanghoul
07-09-2010, 15:59
u guys ever seen the movie "The Transporter", The A Team, or Star Wars? All those movies have super bad ass driver! Why? Because getting into and out of war zone or mission is just as important as doing the mission.

So yes, Marines driver is not a waste. Their BS4 gunner vs. Guards is already proof in game play? Also, Marines don't just drive 12" and unload .. . in their real battle... I see them doing fishtail, zig zag driving to avoid gun fire, then unload the boyz and keep driving.

One of the most important bank robbers position is the driver because getting there and getting home is as important "robbing".

Killing is marines business and business is good.

Polaria
07-09-2010, 16:04
u guys ever seen the movie "The Transporter", The A Team, or Star Wars? All those movies have super bad ass driver! Why? Because getting into and out of war zone or mission is just as important as doing the mission.

So yes, Marines driver is not a waste. Their BS4 gunner vs. Guards is already proof in game play? Also, Marines don't just drive 12" and unload .. . in their real battle... I see them doing fishtail, zig zag driving to avoid gun fire, then unload the boyz and keep driving.

Other than for the fact that Rhinos, Land Riders and other such tracked vehicles can't do a fishtail I agree fully.

Balgora
07-09-2010, 16:17
Ignoring the fact that the transporter movies are basically the worst written movies ever :o, space marine pilots sound pretty fair to me..they're reliable,hard to corrupt, able to judge the tactical situation they're taking the vehicle into as well as operate it with superhuman senses and if worst comes to worst repair their vehicle in the middle of an insane battlezone or put up a good fight on foot if they have to.

Being a vehicle driver is something you can be elite at too! :)

slaanghoul
07-09-2010, 16:47
Other than for the fact that Rhinos, Land Riders and other such tracked vehicles can't do a fishtail I agree fully.


ahhhh U never seen a marine pilot do a rhino fishtail then. He opened a side view hatch and stick out his arm and stuck his fist (no powerfist or even glove needed - T4 is good enough) to the ground at full speed for a slide fishtail effect. Yes Marines can. Tell a guard to do that.