PDA

View Full Version : Who are the Astral Claws a successor of?



Koschai
24-08-2010, 20:12
I've been looking at the Babab War and Huron with the new Forgeworld book coming out (I run Red Corsairs as a secondary army already) and began to wonder which chapter supplied the geneseed for the founding of the Astral Claws?

It got brought to my attention that prior to retcon they used to be Astral Tigers and were of an "unknown" founding which begs the question... who do you think sired them?

I'm thinking maybe Space Wolves as the iconography is compatable, but... not sure. Any thoughts?

Freak Ona Leash
24-08-2010, 20:19
Ultramarines or Imperial Fists are the most likely, since their geneseed is the least tainted. Space Wolves is unlikely, since they do not display the Canis Helix. Blood Angels is unlikely as well, as they do not suffer from the Black Rage. Dark Angels is possible, though they are not of the Unforgiven then. White Scars or Iron Hands could be possible as well, I suppose.

But Gulliman's sons and Dorn's boys provide the majority of the geneseed for new chapters, from what I've read.

FlashGordon
24-08-2010, 20:32
Think its a 13th founding chapter. So no one knows.

Although their iconography reminds me of the Brazen claws/iron hands.

SharpSilver
24-08-2010, 20:57
I've been looking at the Babab War and Huron with the new Forgeworld book coming out (I run Red Corsairs as a secondary army already) and began to wonder which chapter supplied the geneseed for the founding of the Astral Claws?

It got brought to my attention that prior to retcon they used to be Astral Tigers and were of an "unknown" founding which begs the question... who do you think sired them?

I'm thinking maybe Space Wolves as the iconography is compatable, but... not sure. Any thoughts?

There was only one ever Successor chapter to the Space Wolves, and that wasn't well, that successful :p

RunepriestRidcully
24-08-2010, 21:06
chances are they are of Ultramarine stock, most chapters are of it, so most modern day traitors will be desended the great blue chapter on the fringe

Fulgrim's Gimp
24-08-2010, 21:25
Pretty sure it was Ultramarine stock. Source original Badab war articles, IIRC.

Col. Dash
25-08-2010, 00:37
I believe I have seen it mentioned as a Dark Founding. Now were they founded as Tigers Claws before the Imperium renamed them Astral Claws? With a name like that and since at the time camo was in normal use, I would venture to go with a sneakier chapter like the Raven Guard.

malika
25-08-2010, 08:27
But back in the RT all chapters had some sort of camo scheme variations on their normal schemes. Even the Red Scorpions (who really hate camo by the way) seem to have had a camo scheme!

Vashanesh
25-08-2010, 08:54
The original article in the White Dwarf Rogue Trader compendium doesnt name them as a successor to any chapter, but then things were a lil different back then, seeing the emperor was still around and kicking in the early fluff at that time. Dont recall any of the reconns doing anything other than changing the name from Tiger Claws to Astral Claws

malika
25-08-2010, 09:25
Note that the namechange is a recon rather than something that was sanctioned by the Imperium.

Apparently the Astral Claws will have a silver and blue colourscheme. The Caestus boardingship thing from Forgeworld is apparently painted in the Astral Claws colourscheme.

Koschai
25-08-2010, 13:38
Thanks guys, so I guess Ultramarines is most likely :)

Col. Dash
25-08-2010, 16:35
Oh I am aware it was a retcon, one of many I stick my middle finger up at GW for. They will forever be Tiger's Claws in my book and have a cool and almost impossibly difficult to paint scheme for their colors. Note I say almost as I have seen one person do it and it actually look good and many many(including multiple attempts of my own through the years) that look pretty crappy.
I am still thinking Raven guard. I think Ultramorons are too stable to have turned so quickly.

malika
25-08-2010, 16:40
Turned so quickly? We don't know how quick Huron turned anyways...

SultanBaal
25-08-2010, 16:47
Raven Guard as parent chapter?
The Astral Claws dont exhibit the key features of the Raven Guard gene-seed, the pale skin and black eyes and hair.

Brother of the Hydra
25-08-2010, 16:56
OK I admit it! it was us!! The Alpha Legion done......

Well maybe, kind off, could have been, possibly... :shifty:

Sephiroth
25-08-2010, 16:57
I think Ultramorons are too stable to have turned so quickly.

Having Ultramarine gene-seed does not make a Chapter Ultramarine-clones. The Mortifactors are a prime example of this.

Col. Dash
25-08-2010, 19:55
Good point, forgot about the pale skinned, black eyed thing. Hmm well then I am siding with the Fists just because i dont want my 3rd favorite chapter to be related to the ultramarines, lol.

Freak Ona Leash
25-08-2010, 19:57
Good point, forgot about the pale skinned, black eyed thing. Hmm well then I am siding with the Fists just because i dont want my 3rd favorite chapter to be related to the ultramarines, lol.

Never gotten the whole "We hate Ultramarines!" thing. What's wrong with the boys in blue? It's like hating the Black Legion...

...Ah, got it.

;)

Wyrmwood
25-08-2010, 20:34
Actually, the geneseed of Lion El'Jonson is the most stable alongside Guilliman's - but is not widely used for 'undisclosed' reasons by the High Lords. Still, my best guess would be the Ultramarines - though, I would like to believe they descend from the White Scars - guarding the Maelstrom and all that.

Lord_Crull
25-08-2010, 21:25
Best guess would be the Ultramarines followed by the Imperial Fists. White Scars are possible as well.

Mage
25-08-2010, 22:58
I'd second te ultramarins, purely on the basis that such a large amount of chapters today are of their stock.

mob16151
25-08-2010, 23:48
Actually, the geneseed of Lion El'Jonson is the most stable alongside Guilliman's - but is not widely used for 'undisclosed' reasons by the High Lords.

How ironic would it be if the High Lords knew all about the Fallen?:skull:

TheDarkDaff
26-08-2010, 00:02
Actually, the geneseed of Lion El'Jonson is the most stable alongside Guilliman's - but is not widely used for 'undisclosed' reasons by the High Lords. Still, my best guess would be the Ultramarines - though, I would like to believe they descend from the White Scars - guarding the Maelstrom and all that.

Probably has something to do with the way the other Unforgiven Chapters defer to the Dark Angels making them a mini Legion by default.

OT - The Ultras are the most likely soure of geneseed although they could also have been a chapter with a blended geneseed. Imperial Fists would most likely be out of the picture because the Astral Claws don't have any of the failed Organs that identify the Fists.

Mage
26-08-2010, 00:09
What if there was a high lord who was fallen?

Merus
26-08-2010, 00:21
White Scars are possible as well.

Wouldn't that make Huron and his men Mongol in appearance?

That's just as defining as the Ravenguard being incredibly pale. I'm thinking Ultramarines or Fists.

SultanBaal
26-08-2010, 00:41
White Scars are Mongol in appearance cause their homeworld Mundus Planus / Chogoris the people on the planet are based on the Mongols. Why the Raven Guard and their later chapters are pale is due to a mutation with their melanchromic organ.

mrln68
26-08-2010, 00:43
Good point, forgot about the pale skinned, black eyed thing.


Wouldn't that make Huron and his men Mongol in appearance?

There is nothing in the fluff to indicate that geneseed changes physical appearance with a few exceptions like the Space Wolves, Minotaurs and others who have a flaw in their geneseed. Still, a Space Wolf recruited from Vulkan (as unlikely as it would be) would still have the base physical appearance of the home world, not the primarch.

It also doesn't dictate tactics used by the Chapter. While it is often the case that they share similar tactics as their founding chapter for what ever reason - there are several cases that this is not the situation.

I don't ever recall any information about the founding chapter, and the information on the Astral Claws (Tiger Claws) generally leaves the Founding Chapter information blank (in the few cases that it shows that format). Also have never seen them identified as a member of the Cursed Founding (21st) or the 13th Founding.

If you would like to place some weight in the tactics used, in 4th Ed. Badab War Campaign that GW hosted - they had the Blessed be the Warriors and Trust your Battle Brothers traits and also had the Die Standing and Eye to Eye Drawbacks. Take that as you will.

Lord_Crull
26-08-2010, 00:58
Wouldn't that make Huron and his men Mongol in appearance?

That's just as defining as the Ravenguard being incredibly pale. I'm thinking Ultramarines or Fists.

Where does it say that the geneseed of the White Scars causes marines to be asian? Their Index Astartes appearance notes that they are more bloodthirsty than other chapters, but nothing about racial changes.

I would say the White Scars look Mongol because of the people they recruit. Give a Chogoran(?) Ultramarines geneseed or Fist geneseed and he will look asian because he was born that way.

Of course I could be missing something here. We hardly know much about the White Scars sucessors.

Merus
26-08-2010, 01:44
There is nothing in the fluff to indicate that geneseed changes physical appearance

That's not entirely true, actually.

I can cite both the Dark Disciple series, as well as the Heresy short-story in the Legends of the Space Marines novel. Both make mentions of the gene-seed making the Space Marine (at least slightly) resemble their Primarch.


It also doesn't dictate tactics used by the Chapter. While it is often the case that they share similar tactics as their founding chapter for what ever reason - there are several cases that this is not the situation.

I never claimed their tactics would be similar.

Wyrmwood
26-08-2010, 02:07
That's not entirely true, actually.

I can cite both the Dark Disciple series, as well as the Heresy short-story in the Legends of the Space Marines novel. Both make mentions of the gene-seed making the Space Marine (at least slightly) resemble their Primarch.

I think it makes more sense that the geneseed enhances the similarities between the neophyte and the Primarch, not cause them to form altogether - thus ethnicity would play a factor. But this is only my opinion.


Probably has something to do with the way the other Unforgiven Chapters defer to the Dark Angels making them a mini Legion by default.

More than likely - it's also *possible* that the High Lords, or the highest echelon of the Inquisition, know of the Fall.

Merus
26-08-2010, 02:35
I think it makes more sense that the geneseed enhances the similarities between the neophyte and the Primarch, not cause them to form altogether - thus ethnicity would play a factor. But this is only my opinion.

No, I agree. I'm just saying that the newly done Huron by Forge World looks absolutely nothing like Khan.

He looks much more like Guilliman or Dorn to me.

Wyrmwood
26-08-2010, 14:10
No, I agree. I'm just saying that the newly done Huron by Forge World looks absolutely nothing like Khan.

He looks much more like Guilliman or Dorn to me.

Ah, I have yet to see the new miniature.

Mage
26-08-2010, 14:37
Check out the thread in the rumour roundup.

Koschai
26-08-2010, 16:01
If you would like to place some weight in the tactics used, in 4th Ed. Badab War Campaign that GW hosted - they had the Blessed be the Warriors and Trust your Battle Brothers traits and also had the Die Standing and Eye to Eye Drawbacks. Take that as you will.

Slightly OT for this forum and my initial question (loving the info btw, its why I post here) but as I'm not a 4th edition marine player can you give me a cliff notes summary of what the 4 tactical traits you mention actually are?

I'm curious as it would be nice to know what the prefered fighting style of the Astral Claws is (helps creating fluffy army lists).

mrln68
26-08-2010, 16:12
Since it is from an old supplement, that references an old Codex which is no longer in play - I don't know if it falls under the no rules fishing thing...

If the mods don't like it, feel free to snip away:

Blessed Be The Warriors: Assault Squads can be taken as Elites or Fast Attack choices as opposed to only Fast Attack (allowing up to 6 of them).

Trust Your Battle-Brothers: Pretty much any full Marine Infantry unit (not Scouts) can take the Counter-attack and True Grit abilities.

Die Standing: No Drop Pod/Deep Strike attacks. They prefer to be on the battlefield first before joining battle as opposed to plunging straight in.

Eye to Eye: They don't like guerrilla warfare and hit/run raids. Collectively Land Speeders and Bikes are a 0-1 Choice (Only one in total from all of the Landspeeder, Bike and Attack Bike Choices).

Wyrmwood
26-08-2010, 16:14
Blessed Be The Warriors: May take Assault Marines as Fast Attack and/or Elite - if taken as Elite, must take Furious Assault veteran skill.
Trust Your Battle Brothers: Any Command Squad, Veteran Squad, Tactical Squad, Assault Squad or Devestator Squad may take True Grit and Counter Attack and are assumed to have an extra close combat weapon.
Eye to Eye: 0-1 Land Speeder Squadron, Attack Bike Squadron, Bike Squadron.
Die Standing: May not use Drop Pod Assault special rule.

Odd, they seem to lack fast attack equipment and so make up for it with more jump pack units, or they prefer to fight in close combat and disdain hit and run. They seem to dislike orbital strikes, or lack the ability to facilitate such a tactic - which is strange, as they should have enough ships to help police the Maelstrom. All in all, they sound more like a typical Imperial Fist primogenitor.

As the Codex is now outdated and no longer 'legal', I don't think posting these are against forum guidelines - if it is, I apologise.

Edit: Ninja'd!

Koschai
26-08-2010, 16:26
Interesting, so how much do you think thier tactics will have changed as they progressed from Defending the line loyalists, to rebellious "this land is ours" traitors, to raiding pirates?

Do you think as Red Corsairs they still distain drop pods and land speeders, or would you say that thier shifting priorities have made them more open to fast surgical hit and run tactics?

If anything I'd think that the emphasis on close assault (assault squads and counter attack) would have increased, particularly if you look at the tactics Huron used to take on the Space Wolf cruiser in the CSM story..

Wyrmwood
26-08-2010, 16:34
Interesting, so how much do you think thier tactics will have changed as they progressed from Defending the line loyalists, to rebellious "this land is ours" traitors, to raiding pirates?

It appears as though they were forced more on the defensive as the war progressed. If anything, they would likely have adopted an increasingly 'True Grit/Counter Attack' stance. Although as Astartes, they would have to adapt; especially fighting against other Astartes, shelving their typical tactics in favour of more effective counter methods - maybe they actually went on the offensive.


Do you think as Red Corsairs they still distain drop pods and land speeders, or would you say that thier shifting priorities have made them more open to fast surgical hit and run tactics?

I think their method of war is very similar to the typical Black Legion approach, only on a more universal scale - cut off the head and the body will die; deep striking terminators, Marines descending via drop pod etc.

Freak Ona Leash
26-08-2010, 19:50
If I remember correctly, the Astral Claws rules in that online Badab supplement were totally fan-created. So, while interesting, they probably have no bearing on a discussion of GW canon. Which of course, means little since GW is often not sure of what their "real" canon is ;)

mrln68
26-08-2010, 21:30
If I remember correctly, the Astral Claws rules in that online Badab supplement were totally fan-created. So, while interesting, they probably have no bearing on a discussion of GW canon. Which of course, means little since GW is often not sure of what their "real" canon is ;)

Don't know - the supplement was for official GW tournament play, with GW statements through out it. The point of contact for it was nicka@games-workshop.co.uk (not sure if that email address is still valid...fire off a message and see). Has rules for all the chapters that were involved in the campaign. Should still be able to get the info from the Wayback Machine for those who are interested.

Lord Lorne Walkier
26-08-2010, 21:59
That's not entirely true, actually.

I can cite both the Dark Disciple series, as well as the Heresy short-story in the Legends of the Space Marines novel. Both make mentions of the gene-seed making the Space Marine (at least slightly) resemble their Primarch.


I have read two of those books but don't remember any mention of this. Could you give some pages?

OT, i think we can rule out the SW, BA, RG. I would guess IF first then UM for the normal reasons. Though no reason it could not be IH, DA, WS.

Harwammer
27-08-2010, 07:52
With the chapters apparent lack of trait flaws it would be tragic if they were descended from dark angels then descended into chaos.

Born Again
27-08-2010, 12:38
Die Standing: No Drop Pod/Deep Strike attacks. They prefer to be on the battlefield first before joining battle as opposed to plunging straight in.

Eye to Eye: They don't like guerrilla warfare and hit/run raids. Collectively Land Speeders and Bikes are a 0-1 Choice (Only one in total from all of the Landspeeder, Bike and Attack Bike Choices).

Those seem kind of odd considering the lightning attack/ raiders tactics is exactly what they're famous for as the Red Corsairs.

Koschai
27-08-2010, 13:26
I'm figuring thier tactics took a complete 180 after thier fall to pirates and renegades. They now have limited resources, very different goals and the surviving Astral Claws renewed thier numbers from a large influx of scum and villany.

Ba'al Starslayer
27-08-2010, 21:49
Iron Hands. Seems to fit.
Brazen Claws were another.

ThirdUltra
28-08-2010, 04:10
It all depends on what founding they were created in.

If they were created during the 21st Founding (aka the cursed founding) imperial records do not know the source of their gene-seed. The same could be said of the 13th Founding (aka the dark founding). Tracing lineages to chapters during these time may have been less important than the technologies used to develop them.

Also of note, while some posters have mentioned that they do not show similar traits to their primogen chapter.....has anyone forgotten about the Lamenters? They are a founding of the Blood Angels, yet they show no likeness to them at all, plus, no Black Rage afflictions. All this proves is that the latter foundings of marine chapters do not show any traits, likeness or similarities to their predecessors. Basically, parental ancestry here means nothing since the gene-seed used to create the chapter is 'purified' and 'tested' for discrepancies more than they were when the big 20 were first created.

So, any foundings later than the first 10 or so, probably do not have any records to trace lineage now.....or records for the majority of them were lost due to antiquity.

Also, for the majority of the chapters that fought in the Badab War, they were from the 21st Founding......which may seem that there may have been a bad batch of gene-seed lying around when they were formed.

Nazguire
28-08-2010, 05:51
It all depends on what founding they were created in.

If they were created during the 21st Founding (aka the cursed founding) imperial records do not know the source of their gene-seed. The same could be said of the 13th Founding (aka the dark founding). Tracing lineages to chapters during these time may have been less important than the technologies used to develop them.

Also of note, while some posters have mentioned that they do not show similar traits to their primogen chapter.....has anyone forgotten about the Lamenters? They are a founding of the Blood Angels, yet they show no likeness to them at all, plus, no Black Rage afflictions. All this proves is that the latter foundings of marine chapters do not show any traits, likeness or similarities to their predecessors. Basically, parental ancestry here means nothing since the gene-seed used to create the chapter is 'purified' and 'tested' for discrepancies more than they were when the big 20 were first created.

So, any foundings later than the first 10 or so, probably do not have any records to trace lineage now.....or records for the majority of them were lost due to antiquity.

Also, for the majority of the chapters that fought in the Badab War, they were from the 21st Founding......which may seem that there may have been a bad batch of gene-seed lying around when they were formed.


The logic is skewed. One example doesn't mean the whole are like that. The simple fact is we don't have enough information about the Astral Claws or any other Chapter in the Badab War to know what their parent Chapter gene-seed is. They haven't had the exposure or creative depth added to them like the original Foundings and the subsequent 'famous' successors that GW have elaborated on (e.g. Black Templars, Flesh Tearers, White Consuls, Crimson Fists, Howling Griffons, etc)

ThirdUltra
29-08-2010, 05:06
The logic is skewed. One example doesn't mean the whole are like that.

Negative. You missied the part of "IF" they were created under a certain founding. There's no skewed logic here at all. I did not paint the whole lot with one vague brush.

While you are correct that there is not enough information about them, my point was that the majority of those chapters that fought in the Badab War were of the 21st founding.....this may or may not include the Astral Claws.

So, when it comes down to it.....it's all relative to what gene-seed they were founded from. The actions of a successor does not define the founder.

But....we'll see soon enough when FW releases the first book anyways, now won't we?

DantesInferno
29-08-2010, 05:19
Also of note, while some posters have mentioned that they do not show similar traits to their primogen chapter.....has anyone forgotten about the Lamenters? They are a founding of the Blood Angels, yet they show no likeness to them at all, plus, no Black Rage afflictions. All this proves is that the latter foundings of marine chapters do not show any traits, likeness or similarities to their predecessors. Basically, parental ancestry here means nothing since the gene-seed used to create the chapter is 'purified' and 'tested' for discrepancies more than they were when the big 20 were first created.

Just with regard to the Lamenters: they were (allegedly) a specific attempt to modify Blood Angel gene-seed during the Cursed Founding. That's the reason that they don't suffer the Black Rage. It's not normal procedure for new Chapters to have undergone the same degree of gene-seed modification as the Lamenters (allegedly) did. And the Imperium's not going to replicate the experiment any time soon - the Lamenters apparently suffer a side-effect of terribly bad luck resulting from the gene-seed modification.

ThirdUltra
30-08-2010, 03:05
It's not normal procedure for new Chapters to have undergone the same degree of gene-seed modification as the Lamenters (allegedly) did.

Not neccessarily....newer chapters have their gene-seed 'modified' or really 'purified', to prevent the failures of the past. The imperium needs stable gene-seed for the future of their Astartes forces.


And the Imperium's not going to replicate the experiment any time soon - the Lamenters apparently suffer a side-effect of terribly bad luck resulting from the gene-seed modification.

Actually, their gene-seed has nothing to do with their 'bad luck'; there's nothing physical there to affect the chapter. It was after their siding with Huron's Astral Claws and losing did their 'luck' change. When stripped of some of your chapter's fleet assets and being punished in the form of a 100 year crusade, it just might have some effect there.....but gene-seed mods...? Hardly.

The reason the 21st Founding is known as the 'Cursed Founding', is because most, not all, of the chapters founded during this period, suffered some form of demise/fall, mutation, or just attrition through the ages.

And as far as modifying gene-seed goes.....why wouldn't the imperium try replicating or refining that process? The Exorcists Chapter go through a process that comes close to Grey Knight levels of testing (though not exactly), and again, there's no confirmation as to what gene-seed stock they are from...? The Magos Bioligos is alway trying to make gene-seed-craft more efficient to produce stable Astartes units....I don't think they stop trying just because of the Lamenters' bad karma.

There's plenty of chapters, especially new ones, that when created do not know their parentage.....this doesn't automatically mean that Ultramarine stock was used, although there sure is roughly a 60% probability that it is used.

When they say of unknown origin when talking about a chapter's background, it usually means that records of their parentage have been lost for whatever reason.

abasio
30-08-2010, 03:30
My own personal theory (no fluff to back it up though) is that a lot of the chapters with unknown parentage my be of Dark Angel stock. The gene seed is incredibly pure but the High Lords are worried of the Unforgiven becoming too powerful a legion and so keep the origins of many of the chapters made with this stable gene seed a secret even from the chapter themselves.

Polaria
30-08-2010, 04:39
According to fluff 60% of all chapters are Ultramarine descent. So each and every time you have to ask "who are these guys descended from?" the answer is more likely to be Ultramarines than anything else...

Vashanesh
30-08-2010, 08:51
I would have to say that the majority of chapers that fought in the Badab War were not 21st cursed founding chapters...Only the Lamenters, Minotaurs and Fire Hawks are known to be of this founding, unless I have missed something, and of those 3, only 1 was a rebel force. Hopefully end of next month, or whenever the book is coming out we will all know more about the chapters...heres hoping for a lil more info on the Executioners, they seem to be the forgotten child of the 4 rebel chapters.

Lord-Caerolion
30-08-2010, 09:53
Actually, their gene-seed has nothing to do with their 'bad luck'; there's nothing physical there to affect the chapter. It was after their siding with Huron's Astral Claws and losing did their 'luck' change. When stripped of some of your chapter's fleet assets and being punished in the form of a 100 year crusade, it just might have some effect there.....but gene-seed mods...? Hardly.

Actually, the background for the Lamentors (well, pre-BA codex fluff) states that 'they seemed to have traded one curse for another', which means that the bad luck was there before they sided with Huron, and I remember reading a source citing their siding with Huron as an example of the curse.




There is nothing in the fluff to indicate that geneseed changes physical appearance with a few exceptions like the Space Wolves, Minotaurs and others who have a flaw in their geneseed. Still, a Space Wolf recruited from Vulkan (as unlikely as it would be) would still have the base physical appearance of the home world, not the primarch.

It also doesn't dictate tactics used by the Chapter. While it is often the case that they share similar tactics as their founding chapter for what ever reason - there are several cases that this is not the situation.

Well, it's unsure whether Night Lords geneseed causes the pupil dilation, as well as their homeworld, but it does cause black hair and paranoia, with the Iron Warriors geneseed promoting paranoia as well, and Imperial Fist geneseed seems to promote masochism and a desire for martyrdom. Plus, you have the 'Sons' of Horus. I can't remember any other examples of geneseed influencing physical appearance in ways it shouldn't, but there are several sources listing ways geneseed influences thought processes, so yes, it can play a part in the tactics of a Chapter.

Freak Ona Leash
30-08-2010, 12:44
heres hoping for a lil more info on the Executioners, they seem to be the forgotten child of the 4 rebel chapters.

It's the god-awful color scheme, I tell ya! :p

mrln68
30-08-2010, 14:10
Well, it's unsure whether Night Lords geneseed causes the pupil dilation, as well as their homeworld, but it does cause black hair and paranoia, with the Iron Warriors geneseed promoting paranoia as well, and Imperial Fist geneseed seems to promote masochism and a desire for martyrdom. Plus, you have the 'Sons' of Horus. I can't remember any other examples of geneseed influencing physical appearance in ways it shouldn't, but there are several sources listing ways geneseed influences thought processes, so yes, it can play a part in the tactics of a Chapter.

I wouldn't consider paranoia a tactic. I also wouldn't automatically say that the geneseed causes that. Remember, a large part of making a Space Marine is the psycho-conditioning. We generally call that brain washing. If you had been told from the time you were 16 that you only had one thing you had to do in your entire life was to die in battle against the xenos and heretical scum - there is a good chance that you would want to be a martyr. Same applies for constantly being told that you are beset on all sides by those who want to destroy you and your way of life...you would likely be a little bit paranoid. Take a Space Marine and separate them from the chapters indoctrination, they might grow up to be well adjusted people.

I can think of at least one real world example of how this works... ;)

As far as the color of the hair...what color is their hair before hand? Most Chapters recruit from a very limited gene pool to begin with, who is to say that everyone on the planet doesn't already look like that.

TheDarkDaff
30-08-2010, 22:45
As far as the color of the hair...what color is their hair before hand? Most Chapters recruit from a very limited gene pool to begin with, who is to say that everyone on the planet doesn't already look like that.

Blood Angels are altered from Rad sick semi mutants into tall hansome beings, Salamanders misfiring organ turns them jet black, The Canis Helix makes Space Wolves start to grow fangs, in the HH series the Luna Wolves gene-seed turns a number of marines into almost Horus clones.

You do make a great point about the whole brain washing thing. I guess it really comes down to a matter of taste if you want the training or the genetic alteration to cause the mental effects (most likely a combination of both is the cause).

OT- you left of the obessive compulsive need of the Fists to scrimshaw from your list. I still remember the Inq. War bit where Draco steals the bones of a Marine from a shrine so Lex can engrave them or the bit where he starts engraving stuff into the exposed bones in his hand.

mrln68
30-08-2010, 23:50
Blood Angels are altered from Rad sick semi mutants into tall hansome beings,

Actually - no. If you read the fluff, aspirant marines are selected from those of pure blood, not the mutants.


Salamanders misfiring organ turns them jet black

Sounds more like the organ working as desired. The high radiation of Nocturne and their genetics (doesn't say if it is the genetics of their recruitment stock or of the gene-seed...though normally they say gene-seed not genetics when referring to gene-seed) cause them to be black skinned with burning red eyes.

Along those lines, the Salamanders are often portrayed in art work with African type features...so I would lean towards them being rather dark skinned to begin with and the organ (forget off the top of my head) that darkens them to protect from radiation is simply making it darker. Over time, there equipment would have a latent amount of radiation from exposure that would stay with them no matter where they went in the galaxy (and thus maintain the dark skin).


The Canis Helix makes Space Wolves start to grow fangs

Yah - mentioned. Mutant freaks are still mutant freaks. Same goes for the various blood angels mutant freak mutations, the Black Dragons, the Minotaurs...any others that have mutant freak mutation in their gene seed. It is not Primarch freak mutation though.


OT- you left of the obessive compulsive need of the Fists to scrimshaw from your list. I still remember the Inq. War bit where Draco steals the bones of a Marine from a shrine so Lex can engrave them or the bit where he starts engraving stuff into the exposed bones in his hand.

Everyone has to have a hobby. I paint minis...

TheDarkDaff
31-08-2010, 03:21
Actually - no. If you read the fluff, aspirant marines are selected from those of pure blood, not the mutants.

Had a side project of them since 2nd Ed (i'm a Dark Angels man) and the recruits (although they are from the Blood) still suffer heavily from radiation sickness and are generally stunted. The Angels of Death Codex even made special mention of the amasing transformation the Baalites undergo.

Wyrmwood
31-08-2010, 19:55
Had a side project of them since 2nd Ed (i'm a Dark Angels man) and the recruits (although they are from the Blood) still suffer heavily from radiation sickness and are generally stunted. The Angels of Death Codex even made special mention of the amasing transformation the Baalites undergo.

He (mrin68) is probably referencing Matt Ward's latest abomination.