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View Full Version : fanatics, death throws, how do you play it?



TMATK
24-08-2010, 23:07
Up to now I've been going with the Direwolf FAQ ruling - A unit that ends it's move on top of a fanatic takes 2d6 hits and the fanatic is removed, then the unit takes any panic tests it needs to. My chaos opponent takes a few units of warhounds every game, that he can simply drop on my fanatics. It pretty much makes fanatics a waste of points.

Now I think that the majority opinion disagrees? That is, the unit takes d6 when it first touches the fanatic, then panics if needed, then finishes its move for another d6 and the fanatic dies.

I'm wondering how everyone actually plays it. How is it ruled at tournies such at 'ard boyz, ETC, etc...

I just want to poll to get a feel for how it's played amongst other groups, before I suggest a change in interpretation for our games.

Thanks

Dutch_Digger
24-08-2010, 23:18
i find sacrificing warhounds a fair trade off, not aware if tourneys have other rules though

Keep in mind that the fanatic is released aswell, so those warhounds are probably not his/her first victims of the day

TMATK
24-08-2010, 23:37
...
Keep in mind that the fanatic is released aswell, so those warhounds are probably not his/her first victims of the day

What's happening is, after the fanatics are released, a unit of hounds will sacrifice themselves and sit on the fanatics to get rid of them. It makes a huge difference if theirs a chance the hounds will panic before they can kill the fanatic.

Ethos
24-08-2010, 23:56
Since the rule states "instead" when referring to the 2D6 / D6 hits, the number of hits are calculated at one, single time. Meaning, not 1 D6 [then Panic test] followed by another 1 D6. Rather, 2 D6 [Panic test], etc.

2 D6 replaces the 1 D6 the Fanatic would normally inflict.

TMATK
25-08-2010, 00:09
Since the rule states "instead" when referring to the 2D6 / D6 hits, the number of hits are calculated at one, single time. Meaning, not 1 D6 [then Panic test] followed by another 1 D6. Rather, 2 D6 [Panic test], etc.

2 D6 replaces the 1 D6 the Fanatic would normally inflict.

There's no "2d6 instead".

O&G book p 25 - Out of Control (things that kill a fanatic)


any unit that finishes its move over the Fanatic. The unit takes D6 Strength 5 hits for moving into the Fanatic, and a further D6 Strength 5 hits in the Fanatic's death throes."

Ethos
25-08-2010, 00:37
I'm totally stupid.

Nor do I have the book.

*shame on me*

Synnister
25-08-2010, 00:54
panic checks for heavy casualties are done at the end of the phase. So, they'd end their move on top of the fanatic take 2d6 hits then roll for panic if required at the end of the phase. Better question is if the hounds are small enough that 1d6 from the initial contact can wipe them out if they can cause the fanatic to die. So say there's 3 dogs left and you do 4 wounds with the 1st D6 hits do they still count as having ended their movement on top of the fanatic?

TMATK
25-08-2010, 00:57
The Splat rule for fanatics state the panic test is taken immediately when 25% casualties are taken.

Synnister
25-08-2010, 01:15
Isn't the splat rule the rule for landing on top of the fanatic? And if that's the case then you'd already ended your movement on top of the fanatic to invoke the splat rule. Thus the fanatic would be gone before the panic check is taken. Since the hits are happening during the movement phase, it makes sense to take the test immediately after since you shouldn't be taking any more hits. I understand your position, however, you have to look at how many points your opponent is sacrificing to get rid of your fanatic.

T10
25-08-2010, 06:33
Consider this: A unit that moves over a fanatic isn't obliged to stop on top of it. You may wish for it to simply keep moving past the fanatic, and in doing so your unit may or may not end up on top of the fanatic.

"Smothering" the fanatic isn't some special kind of action you declare like a charge. Its a consequence of your unit ending its move on top of the fanatic.

Regardless of intent you'll need to work out the first 1d6 hits (contact) first. The unit is then free to complete its move (unless it is destroyed, or panics).

-T10

Dutch_Digger
25-08-2010, 08:02
panic checks for heavy casualties are done at the end of the phase.

there is no such rule


T10 makes good point i think.. i'd even add that if the unit has to END it's move on top of the fanatic. That doesnt happen if they panic and runaway.

Haravikk
25-08-2010, 10:50
I agree with T10, and it sounds like option number 2 in the poll (D6, panic, if still on fanatic then further D6).

Kulgur
25-08-2010, 11:57
Got to say, looking at how the rules are written, it looks to me like:
fanatic dies, unit takes 2d6 str5

Out of control specifies "A fanatic is immediately removed when any unit finishes its move over the fanatic."
As the fanatic is now dead and the unit already stopped on top of it (no matter how briefly) they should take the full 2d6.

T10
25-08-2010, 13:28
Got to say, looking at how the rules are written, it looks to me like:
fanatic dies, unit takes 2d6 str5

Out of control specifies "A fanatic is immediately removed when any unit finishes its move over the fanatic."
As the fanatic is now dead and the unit already stopped on top of it (no matter how briefly) they should take the full 2d6.

I can understand your enthusiasm, but you're missing the important part. The fanatic doesn't die upon being contacted by your unit.

"A fanatic is immediately removed when any unit finishes its move over the fanatic."

You don't work out the death throes before the unit comes to a halt.

Even if it is the unit's sole intent to kill off the fanatic, the unit first moves into contact (taking 1d6 hits), then moves over the fanatic (taking no hits) and finally stops on top of the fanatic (taking 1d6 hits).

-T10

Kulgur
25-08-2010, 15:10
I can understand your enthusiasm, but you're missing the important part. The fanatic doesn't die upon being contacted by your unit.

"A fanatic is immediately removed when any unit finishes its move over the fanatic."

You don't work out the death throes before the unit comes to a halt.

Even if it is the unit's sole intent to kill off the fanatic, the unit first moves into contact (taking 1d6 hits), then moves over the fanatic (taking no hits) and finally stops on top of the fanatic (taking 1d6 hits).

-T10

I didn't say you did work out death throes before the unit comes to a halt. The way I see it, you move the unit, if the unit has stopped on the fanatic you remove the fanatic and resolve the 2d6. If the unit moved through the fanatic you resolve the 1d6. You don't stop the unit the moment it contacts the fanatic and resolve that 1d6 worth of hits, then wait to see if the unit STOPS on the fanatic, then resolve another 1d6.

Dutch_Digger
25-08-2010, 17:02
You don't stop the unit the moment it contacts the fanatic and resolve that 1d6 worth of hits, then wait to see if the unit STOPS on the fanatic, then resolve another 1d6.

I think you have to stop the unit the moment it contacts the fanatic. Just like you would when moving through the fanatic, you stop the moment they hit, work out the hits and if they hold, then they keep on moving, untill theyre done.

How else would you work out a move through the fan? where would they stop to take hits?

T10
25-08-2010, 17:05
Fair enough, as long as you are aware that it is a simplification that may frequently be wrong. Unless the unit is 25+ models then there is a real chance that the first 1d6 hits may cause enough damage to force a Panic test.

AMWOOD co
28-08-2010, 04:32
...Units may move and flee through Fanatics, but any foolhardy enough to do so will take hits as described above. A unit that suffers 25% casualties from Fanatics must immediately take a Panic test. Units failing this test flee directly towards the cosest table edge (potentially moving through the same Fanatic that triggered the terst, suffering a further set of hits).

The interesting point here is that it says 'move... through Fanatics'. This lead me to believe that the Fanatic's damage will resolve after the unit has moved. This works for all cases, as a charging unit will stop for the fanatics to come out and then resume, but any damage done while the chargers are moving follows these rules.

This leads me to conclude that upon the conclusion of the units movement (the player says that the unit is done moving) any fanatic damage is then worked out (including damage to the fanatic in the form of death) and panic tests are taken as a result of that damage.

Urgat
28-08-2010, 09:56
The interesting thing is actually that people will go down and try and find a deep meaning in each word, when the rules are just a clumsy summary of the previous version.
The whole debate is void, since the fanatic dies on release by touching the ground.

Seriously, you take 1D6 hit when you touch the fanatic. The first damage you take, you're not even ON the fanatic yet. The rest should come naturally.

TheSil
28-08-2010, 21:23
why do you complain? that is more than a fair traidoff if you ask me...

a minimal unit of hounds costs 30 points. a fanatic costs 25. If he kills your fanatic by that you even win 5 points.
As mentioned earlier they have to be released in a previous round to make this possible, so they can only be killed AFTER they had their chance to deal damage or block the path of a dangerous close combat unit anyway.

The only way a minimal unit of hounds is making your fanatics useless is by running close to your battleline and triggering the release of fanatics where you don't want them to, with the 30 pts hounds as the only target and blocking the path of your own units. Once that has happened it is of little concern what happens to the fanatics afterwards. And this is completely fine from a rules point of view...

T10
28-08-2010, 22:28
There's a small chance that the fanatic can survive if it wipes out (or panics) the war hounds. A bit like the small chance a lone 150 point wizard has of surviving a shot from a 100 point cannon.

Or are we simply exchanging points values at slightly different rates instead of involving dice?

-T10

Urgat
29-08-2010, 05:25
why do you complain? that is more than a fair traidoff if you ask me...

a minimal unit of hounds costs 30 points. a fanatic costs 25. If he kills your fanatic by that you even win 5 points.
Coz that's not exactly why you take fanatics, to kill their points worth in dogs. But yeah, he gains 5pts off, so he should be happy and shut up, heh :p
It's a matter of rules, not of preferences.


As mentioned earlier they have to be released in a previous round to make this possible, so they can only be killed AFTER they had their chance to deal damage or block the path of a dangerous close combat unit anyway.
Yep, no doubt he waits for the chosens to release the fanatics and send the dogs in.
Man, the dogs do the release, and if they survive, they then step on them next turn. Be sensible. Even with 3 fanatics, the odds that the dogs bite it aren't that high.


The only way a minimal unit of hounds is making your fanatics useless is by running close to your battleline and triggering the release of fanatics where you don't want them to, with the 30 pts hounds as the only target and blocking the path of your own units. Once that has happened it is of little concern what happens to the fanatics afterwards. And this is completely fine from a rules point of view...

This is of course a valid tactic, and nobody said a thing about it.

Bodysnatcher
29-08-2010, 16:50
How do you end your move on top of a fanatic unless you're charging?

T10
29-08-2010, 16:59
The rules imply that you can move over the fanatic.

Even though charging allows moving closer than 1 inch, this still doesn't allow you to move over models. Yet the rules exist for doing these things without mentioning charging at all.

Venerable_Bede
29-08-2010, 23:03
I don't think there's any room for debate.

When a unit contacts a fanatic it stops and casualties are worked out. If this causes 25% casualites a Panic test is taken immediatey. If the unit passes and continues on, ending it's move over the fanatic, the unit takes 2D6 more wounds and the fanatic is removed.

Dutch_Digger
01-09-2010, 08:27
if by '2d6 more' you meant '1d6 more' then i agree, it seems like the best way to work it out to me.

Olyphant
01-09-2010, 14:49
To further boogle your mind, since you cannot move a unit to within 1" of another friend/foe unit and you cannot charge fanatics, how do you purposefully move your unit over the fanatic? Surely a fleeing unit would "die" as soon as it hit a fanatic and be removed from the board that way not killing the fanatic.

The only exceptions I can figure is here are a small launch from the fanatic host when charged or a failed charge on the host unit.

AMWOOD co
01-09-2010, 19:08
The key about moving onto/over fanatics is in their 'Splat!' rule.


Units may move and flee through Fanatics, but...

When added with bullet point 3 of 'Out of Control', the conclusion is that units can finish their movement phase on top of Fanatics if they wish, but there is hell to pay.