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drmckool
25-08-2010, 05:10
Hello, i'm a 40k player but after not being able to play at the local GW recently because of everyone playing fantasy i have decided that i would like the make a WHFB army (plus i hear it's tactically more challenging/fun)

So as of now i am thinking of making an elven army but i am stuck between te High Elves and the Dark Elves. I want my army to have great magic, with quick/deadly elite units and powerful heroes/lords. I hear the the HE have better magic abilities and better heroes, but the DE have better units. Could someone clarify the magic potential, competitiveness and general experience of both armies for me (i am trying to turn over a new leaf and not be as competitive but it's hard and i really don't like to lose)

I'm not necessarily stuck on playing an Elf army if there is a better army for me but as of now they look like they would be the best armies for me (afterall though i don't play them anymore Dark Eldar was my first 40k army).

DaemonReign
25-08-2010, 05:20
Both HE and DE are viable in this edition.

HE has more expensive point-wise troops in general. That's their definate weakness over DE.

HE strengths would be special characters like Teclis (without Teclis HE doesn't have a wisper of the magic that "normal" DE wizards can launch in this ed given the PD cap). I don't know if you use special characters (we don't).

Frankly, if you don't like losing I'd recomend DE (once you get around all the corners in that book you'll have a "broken"-list for every occassion I guarantee you that) - and if you prefer to give yourself just a bit more of a challange then go for HE.

Of course, I would personally just base it on aesthetics.. Which models to you prefer? which fluff do you feel most at home with?

drmckool
25-08-2010, 05:44
well i don't want it to have to run special characters in order to get my magic off, however; i thought HE were supposed to be THE magic army.

I don't really care about the fluff (however; the way i want to run a lot of direct damage spells it seems that DE would fit better) and the models look roughly the same in the 2 armies (though i like the look of the HE lords a little better) I'm kind of stuck. Essentially i just want to run an army that can do it all well (movement, shooting, magic, combat).

I was initially thinking about doing Skaven since the starter set is coming out soon, but those are a lot of models to paint and they are a little more of a "leave it to chance" army with all the variables that you have to keep up with. plus i wouldn't mind using an army that can set up a little more quickly than Skaven can.

DaemonReign
25-08-2010, 05:54
HE is "THE magic Army" - IF you bring Teclis.

If you don't, then DE will ALWAYS bring their "power of darkness" spell gaining power dice in a way that not even Tzeentch can do in 8th Edition - so I'm sorry to disappoint but I really think DE is much more potent.

If I were in your situation I would choose High Elves, and then I would proceed to beat people WITHOUT using Teclis - and get some well deserved respect.

drmckool
25-08-2010, 05:58
If I were in your situation I would choose High Elves, and then I would proceed to beat people WITHOUT using Teclis - and get some well deserved respect.

Knowing me i would always be too tempted to bring Telics

On a non-magical front though (as in Combat and shooting because their movement is the same) which army does better, or are their fairly balanced? From what i've seen of the HE book they all have ASF, whereas the DE do not, however the DE have hatred which makes the first round of combat pretty productive.

Also moving into their special and Rare choices which army has the more productive of these two categories?

i plan with whatever i do to build an army that is a semi-competitive take on all comers one

Lord of Divine Slaughter
25-08-2010, 06:21
You should go with the one with the models you like the best.

Also if you prefer being a heroic pansy or emo villain should cross your mind, as HE are regarded as the cheating crossdressers and DE are the spoiled emo brats. Also playing an elven army will cause people to question your sexuality :)

Esco Thomson
25-08-2010, 07:13
Both are very viable in 8th edition with or without special characters.

I would honestly pick DE as the "better" army, if there were such a thing, though what I have honestly found with 8th edition, is that most armies are now "playable" at a tournament level.

Your build obviously matters, as does your experience as a general, but still as a whole, I feel you have a lot more liberty when it comes to fielding an army effectively.

Personally I would go with HE here, as they are commonly viewed as gay - er Dark Elves, and any chance to disprove that is rad.

librisrouge
25-08-2010, 07:16
To be fair, the HE don't really need Teclis to be magic heavy. They have +1 to all their dispel rolls (something others pay 35 points for), a banner that gives +1d3 power dice (an auto include if you're planning on magic heavy), and the Book of Hoeth (making an Archmage into a mini Teclis.) If you have all three of these things then you have a superior magic phase compared to most other armies. Dark Elves can do great things with their power dice generating spell but it's difficult to spam that one in the new edition while the banner will always work. Plus a lot of Dark Elfs players will want to use the new lores which precludes you from having that spell. High Elves get all those benefits without having to take High Magic. IMO, High Elves out magic Dark Elves.

As for units dude. The High Elves have Always Strike First, which is pretty sweet (can't quote the effects here, look it up.) This makes their units kinda glass hammer, but oh boys what hammers they are. Sword Masters and White Lions hit like a ton of bricks and Spearmen/Lothern Sea Guard are possibly the best spearmen in the game getting a lot of accurate attacks.

Dark Elves are competent at magic, hell even awesome. Their units aren't as elite but that also means that they're cheaper so you can take more. They all have Hatred which isn't as good as Always Strike First IMO but it's kinda sweet. Their characters are tough as nails with the right items though and their ranged units are nothing short of fantastic.

Either way, you should really go with the asthetic you prefer. I didn't and I regretted it until I finally gave in and played Empire (you lousy pointy eared git.)

Vile Druchii
25-08-2010, 08:08
@ librisrouge: Dark Elves get the Power of Darkness spell regardless of what lore they use. It's an innate spell that they always know. And it's fairly easy to spam it too. You can also take into account the sacrificial dagger, which was good, but is now an auto include.

On topic, really it does come down to aesthetics, so go for whichever one you like the look of. To be fair, I haven't seen a huge amount of competitive High Elf builds that don't include Teclis, which is a bit disappointing, and bear in mind that High Elves aren't guaranteed their re-rolls due to ASF. If you're looking for powerful shooting, then Dark Elves can make a ridiculously good gun line list that still packs a decent melee punch. Also, their elite troops.are arguably as good as their High Elf counterparts simply because they offer similar damage output abilities (which become all the better with magic de-buffs on the enemy and buffs from the Cauldron of Blood) but at a relatively cheaper cost. I feel that Dark Elves are at their best when you take chances with builds and tactics. High Elves have become the 'safe option' if you want to do certain things quite well.

Also, everyone and their doggies will be starting a High Elf army soon.

But I'm very biased ;) .

a18no
25-08-2010, 17:06
When people will make good 8th list, HE will prove to be a little better than dark elf. The ASF with great weapon is so good that I can't tell you all the things you can do with it.

Teclis is by far the best mage out there. High elf can choose any lore of magic, with dark elf you can choose Shadow (one of the best), death (some trick there), metal and fire, but you are away from Life and Light. Light is not that good with elf, but life is very strong.

Shooting is better with dark elf. But if you really want shooting, both are not the army you want. Dwarf/empire and even orcs & gob are stronger cause they got more choices with warmachines. Ballista are very week, they were my no brainer in 7th, i don't remember when i used them in 8th.

Elite are stronger with high elf, the difference in point is well ajusted with ASF and re-roll. In the core department, dark elf have better choices. But we tryed yesterday a Horde of 60 high elf spearman (minimum core!!) with the 6th shadow spells... OWESOME. With my dark elf, i can only dream about that.

@Vile Druchii: name me when high elf won't get their re-roll?? Cause they re-roll when ini are EQUAL of better. Ini 6 is not that common. And Phoenix guard can deal with them (and dragon prince).

Conclusion: dark elf got some good trick in 8th, but many are just modification of what people were used too in 7th. High elf got some to uncover, we found some pretty cool, i gave you only one... If you don'T want to hear at every tournement/forum: you win because you play dark elf, go for high elf. I can garantee you that you will win at least as much, just don't use army list on forums: 80% of them are 7.5th, not 8th yet!

Good games!

drmckool
25-08-2010, 18:00
where in the rules is the re-roll for the HE, essentially i just want to play an aggressive (as opposed to defensive) army that sets the flow for the battle and makes the opponent have to play in reaction to my moves as opposed to any pre-thought out strategy. I chose these two armies as possible ones to play because i think magic is really interesting and adds a cool layer to the game (plus it looks pretty deadly).

as another note: i really don't want to HAVE to use special characters inorder to make the army work. However; i do want the option of throwing in some nasty SC's for spite when necessary.

a18no
25-08-2010, 18:04
where in the rules is the re-roll for the HE, essentially i just want to play an aggressive (as opposed to defensive) army that sets the flow for the battle and makes the opponent have to play in reaction to my moves as opposed to any pre-thought out strategy. I chose these two armies as possible ones to play because i think magic is really interesting and adds a cool layer to the game (plus it looks pretty deadly).

When you got ASF and higher or equal initiative, you get to re-roll all hit.

ASF and great weapon cancel each other EXCEPT for high elf who always keep ASF.

Your strategy is perfectly viable with both army. I say just go with the army you like the must for the history and the look of the figs.

drmckool
25-08-2010, 20:05
As of now i believe i will create a Character heavy HE army, simply because i like the look of the heroes/lords of the High Elves more than the Dark Elves. In addition i think the Cavalry look a little cooler and seem to be more reliable. However, it will kind of suck to not be able to field the Hydras or the superior shooting.

But of course there is a good chance that i will change my mind to DE or hear about another army before i get started that fits my Powerful lords/heroes, aggressive army and powerful magic preferences.

Also as a follow up question, my friend is thinking of making an Empire army, how do the HE usually fare against the Empire and their guns? It won't effect my choice really, i'm just curious.

a18no
25-08-2010, 20:39
Not good!!

T3, no armor, priced units... But it's the same case for dark elf.

Buy lots of eagle (4-5), and you'll be able to handle some warmachines.

For hydra, you don't loose that much. It's a good unit, look well. But because of the new rule of steadfast, it can't make points by itself. The hydra need some support. Actually, the hydra is more a support unit. Just like a 5 men cavalry (cost the same), but bring a little more punch!

I think that empire VS high elf will bring you some really good and very interesting fights.

Good games and welcome to the hobby!

drmckool
25-08-2010, 20:46
I was originally thinking of getting the starter set and doing Skaven but frankly i can't afford to buy all those models, i want something a little more reliable and i don't have the time to paint all of them

Vile Druchii
25-08-2010, 23:49
@Vile Druchii: name me when high elf won't get their re-roll?? Cause they re-roll when ini are EQUAL of better. Ini 6 is not that common. And Phoenix guard can deal with them (and dragon prince).

Conclusion: dark elf got some good trick in 8th, but many are just modification of what people were used too in 7th. High elf got some to uncover, we found some pretty cool, i gave you only one... If you don'T want to hear at every tournement/forum: you win because you play dark elf, go for high elf. I can garantee you that you will win at least as much, just don't use army list on forums: 80% of them are 7.5th, not 8th yet!

Good games!

Black Guard, Witch Elves, Cold One Knights, Cold One Charioteers and Most characters deny re-rolls when being attacked by most High Elf units, and then let's not forget the signature shadow spell - reduce their Initiative and they probably won't even get re-rolls to hit your hydra! Whereas Hatred re-rolls are guaranteed, more so when facing High Elves.

I don't see how High Elves got good tricks. Sure, ASF became better, but how did that really affect unit builds? I haven't seen many people writing lists based around a higher average hit rate. The vast majority of competitive High Elf lists I've seen have been based around magic and, more often than not, Teclis. As far as I can see, this has narrowed distinctive builds for them, whereas Dark Elves remained largely unchanged other than their improved shooting, better magic abilities than most armies (thanks to PoD) and fantastic synergy between troops (dirt cheap spear elves), magic (buffs and de-buffs from Shadow mostly) and, a significant edge, the Cauldron of Blood.

If it's diversity you're looking for, Dark Elves offer it in spades. I haven't seen the same from High Elves in this edition.

drmckool
26-08-2010, 04:53
So i just hit a pretty bad dilemma

Today i had a chance to look at the army books and most of the models for both armies (i know there's the internet but i mean a really good look) and i have hit a slight dilemma, I like the DE rules a lot but much prefer the HE models by a long shot. Back to square 1 of deciding i guess. My problem is it looks like when the re-boot was done for the DE they didn't redo any of the models, whereas the HE all look crisp, clean and modern.

VoodooJanus
26-08-2010, 05:13
So i just hit a pretty bad dilemma

Today i had a chance to look at the army books and most of the models for both armies (i know there's the internet but i mean a really good look) and i have hit a slight dilemma, I like the DE rules a lot but much prefer the HE models by a long shot. Back to square 1 of deciding i guess. My problem is it looks like when the re-boot was done for the DE they didn't redo any of the models, whereas the HE all look crisp, clean and modern.

Wait... you REALLY prefer the high elf models over the dark elf ones? I'd think one look at DE corsairs and you'd go bananas... but to each their own I suppose. I'm going to say what EVERYONE will say (has said.) You should go with the army you like the look of best, because investing a large amount of effort into an army you don't particularly like is A. difficult, and B. sort of against the main point of the hobby...
However it's quite bizarre you say that... HE troops have a higher proportion of sausage-fingers when compared to DE. Only the core (minus the corsairs) DE suffer from it, while many HE elites and all their core (this is of course excluding the soon to be redone Swordmasters and Lothern Seaguard) look a bit odd IMHO.

Honestly, the HE are a newly powerful (but not to the point where the game isn't a challenge) army in 8th. DE lost some stature in 8th, but still contend for one of the top slots. Both armies are very competitive, and have GREAT models, rules, and playstyles (although the DE tend to be more flexible in that department.) If you can deal with having universally T3 models, then I'd tell you to pick whichever one you like the look of better.

drmckool
26-08-2010, 05:20
I was really referring to the Heroes/Lords/SC's. There just seems to be a lack of different and new models for the DE lords/heroes. However; i have been thinking of some ways to convert them to make them look pretty cool.

grumbaki
26-08-2010, 15:47
Have you considered mixing and matching? Paint your high elves with a Naggrythe color scheme and call them Dark Elves before they went totally emo. So with this you can use mostly high elf models, but if you really want you can use some dark elf rules. Just avoid things that dark elves wouldn't have had back then (namely just cold ones and witch elves) and you are set. You can also use the army as a high elf army. The only difference would be in buying both archers and repeater crossbows for when you want to switch back and forth. While the shooty models could only be used in one version of it, everything else can go both ways (executioners=white lions, blackguard=phoenix guard and vice versa). Just an idea incase you really can't decide.

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 15:59
Here's the thing: You're new to WHFB. You don't want to get an uber army right off the bat (which most consider DE to be). Alot of new players do this, and I've never agreed with it. I don't think it builds confidence and it definitely doesn't develop skill, but instead sets you up for failure in the end; you gotta go to the school of hard knocks and pay your dues!

I'd start out with HE. You obviously prefer the models (which is actually very important when determining the length of time you'll stay interested in your army) and they're a bit more of a challenge to master, especially when not using SC's (and I always recommend staying very far away from SC's, especially Teclis. You field Teclis and nobody will take you seriously). Try your hand at a HE magic army focused around Lore of Life and lots of spearmen. Being your first army, try to field as many different types of troops as you can, as this will give you a good feel for the entire army.

HE are weaker in combat than DE (deny it all you want guys, but we've seen it countless times), but they're still ungodly awesome. People actually deploy their armies based on staying away from CC encounters with Phoenix Guard, White Lions and Sword Masters (which is a strategy-destroyer in itself). And the magic, even without Teclis, is incredible. Their dispel is also very potent which, in 8th, will often be key to your success (*cough*Slann*cough*). Magic armies are often useless against HE and Dwarfs.

Your shooting, while maybe not as potent as DE, is still great. BS4+ across the board, plus some very awesome scouts.

One thing I'm not crazy about with HE is their lack of great magic item combinations for melee characters. In DE, you have a very wide range of all sorts of different magic item combinations to rip your opponent apart in close combat, but in HE not so much.

At the end of the day, however, go with the models you like the best and the theme you like the best. Neither of these armies are underhanded in 8th, so just don't worry about rules and go with what you know you want to do.

a18no
26-08-2010, 16:07
Black Guard, Witch Elves, Cold One Knights, Cold One Charioteers and Most characters deny re-rolls when being attacked by most High Elf units, and then let's not forget the signature shadow spell - reduce their Initiative and they probably won't even get re-rolls to hit your hydra! Whereas Hatred re-rolls are guaranteed, more so when facing High Elves.

Characters deny re-roll... what's the point? High elf characters can re-roll against dark elf characters... You have the bread and the butter with ASF, want the grocery store too??

Cold one knight got ini 6, you know what? Dragon prince too
Cold one chariot, not a big problem
Witch elves and black guard, wow, 1 more than hig elf....

Reduce initiative, right good idea. You know what? The hint work to for High elf!

Hatred is guaranteed re-rol? Have you face a banner of balance in a Swordsmaster horde??

BOTH are good army with some trick, you only proved my point.



I don't see how High Elves got good tricks. Sure, ASF became better, but how did that really affect unit builds? I haven't seen many people writing lists based around a higher average hit rate. The vast majority of competitive High Elf lists I've seen have been based around magic and, more often than not, Teclis. As far as I can see, this has narrowed distinctive builds for them, whereas Dark Elves remained largely unchanged other than their improved shooting, better magic abilities than most armies (thanks to PoD) and fantastic synergy between troops (dirt cheap spear elves), magic (buffs and de-buffs from Shadow mostly) and, a significant edge, the Cauldron of Blood.


Again, you proved my point: stop looking lists on forums. 80%/90% of them are 7,5th list. We are 2 months in a new edition, give some time to players and they'll find some good trick. I just gave you 2 new above, one was your idea !!



If it's diversity you're looking for, Dark Elves offer it in spades. I haven't seen the same from High Elves in this edition.

Again, it's because you're not searching enough.
Dark elf have diversity??
Harpies were played in 7th, a little less in 8th but still there
Dark riders were less played in 7th, maybe even less in 8th
Corsair will be use a little, not that much compared to witch elves at the same cost though.
Warriors are now very hard to play, must use spear, T3. Not as good as high elves, even for the cost.
Executionner were very hard to play in 7th, now that they strike last everytime... I struggle to include them in my lists.
Black guard are still good, but limited to 20 (a BIG draw back, you'll understand after 20 battles or more)
Cold one suffer as much as any cavalry, were played before, not more in 8th.
Hydra was good in 7th, still good, not the same role.
Ballista are crap now, but same for HE.

All in all, i must say that dark elf got near nothing new in their choices. But for high elf, white lion will become more powerfull than swords (we tryed them awesome!!, for same cost they can kill an hydra with 0 lost, the trick is to find they way!!), with so many new spell (lore), many thing to try! I gave you some last time, find more if you can. Minimum core of 25% will force some playe to actually consider spearman, who are very strong by the way.

Conclusion: both are very good army. And i'm sure they got many trick we didn't find yet. Strange.. i think I said that last time...:p

NO ONE can say that an army is stronger than one other. Yes some army got evident trick/combo that loo "too" strong. But many army have somes that are lowprofil. We are 2 months after the new system. A system that changed everything we know. For about 6 months, we'll see many 7,5th lists, and some 8th edition list at the end. After that, one more 6 month before people will have tried way to destroy 8th edition lists. Only then, we'll be able to say that some things are too strong and can't be destroyed by balanced list. For now on, just have fun!

Good games, and pick the army you think look better, and like said before, use figs from different army, that is called: conversion! And have fun!

BobtheInquisitor
26-08-2010, 18:00
So i just hit a pretty bad dilemma

Today i had a chance to look at the army books and most of the models for both armies (i know there's the internet but i mean a really good look) and i have hit a slight dilemma, I like the DE rules a lot but much prefer the HE models by a long shot. Back to square 1 of deciding i guess. My problem is it looks like when the re-boot was done for the DE they didn't redo any of the models, whereas the HE all look crisp, clean and modern.


So use the High Elf models and then do "counts as" to make them Dark Elves. You can always claim that they are Dark Elf infiltrators, or a sneaky plot by Malekith to start another War of the Beard style conflict.

Vile Druchii
28-08-2010, 20:21
Characters deny re-roll... what's the point? High elf characters can re-roll against dark elf characters... You have the bread and the butter with ASF, want the grocery store too??

Well, you asked me when High Elves wouldn't get the re-roll, and I answered you...

Characters denying re-rolls are quite good actually, especially against troops (factoring in ASF into costs). Character vs Character...well, I'd say Dark Elves have better offensive items available to them anyway, so as far as I can see, that's stacked in the Dark Elves' favour too.


Cold one knight got ini 6, you know what? Dragon prince too
Cold one chariot, not a big problem
Witch elves and black guard, wow, 1 more than hig elf....

Again, you asked me to provide instances where High Elves wouldn't get the re-roll and I did just that. I'm aware Dragon Princes have Initiative 6, but who charges their heavy cavalry head first into another unit of heavy cavalry? And who wanders blindly into the first unit they have the chance to charge? If you're planning tactically, you can set up a Dark Elf army in a way that almost completely eliminates the advantages of a High Elf army...and the chance to mess with an opponent's battle lines before the battle has begun gives me the advantage!


Reduce initiative, right good idea. You know what? The hint work to for High elf!

Hatred is guaranteed re-rol? Have you face a banner of balance in a Swordsmaster horde??

BOTH are good army with some trick, you only proved my point.

That does work for High Elves, yes. But Dark Elves don't pay for ASF, so reducing a High Elves' Initiative has more of a knock-on effect.

And no, I haven't ever faced a Swordmaster horde, banner of balance or not. By the time they get across the field, they generally resemble a pathetic, limping pin cushion rather than a unit.

What point have I proved again?


Again, you proved my point: stop looking lists on forums. 80%/90% of them are 7,5th list. We are 2 months in a new edition, give some time to players and they'll find some good trick. I just gave you 2 new above, one was your idea !!

I'm not sure what you're saying here, to be honest. What trick did I give? I'm not looking at lists on the forums, I'm looking at competitive lists in my LGS, and the general consensus among High Elf players, who have had more than a few games under their belts, is that High Elves rely quite heavily on magic to be competetive.


Again, it's because you're not searching enough.
Dark elf have diversity??
Harpies were played in 7th, a little less in 8th but still there
Dark riders were less played in 7th, maybe even less in 8th
Corsair will be use a little, not that much compared to witch elves at the same cost though.
Warriors are now very hard to play, must use spear, T3. Not as good as high elves, even for the cost.
Executionner were very hard to play in 7th, now that they strike last everytime... I struggle to include them in my lists.
Black guard are still good, but limited to 20 (a BIG draw back, you'll understand after 20 battles or more)
Cold one suffer as much as any cavalry, were played before, not more in 8th.
Hydra was good in 7th, still good, not the same role.
Ballista are crap now, but same for HE.

Harpies were amazing in 7th, not dreadful in 8th but nowhere near as good. They could hunt war machines, herd fleeing units, march block or drop behind units that are about to break to run them down automatically. They still have their uses, but not as blatant.
Dark Riders were less played in 7th??? Really??? Were you playing the same game I was?
Corsairs have improved in 8th. Still a bit overpriced, but their hand bows can provide a couple of turns of withering fire along with a harsh stand and shoot reaction. Not too bad for a core unit. I've seen them make their points back in a couple of turns.
Warriors are fantastic, especially for their points cost. You seem to be just looking at stats and rules, but consider this; a horde unit of Dark Elf spearmen, given Killing Blow from the Cauldron of Blood. That's gonna wreck anyone's day. And they're cheap enough to sacrifice and hold up flanks. Unlike High Elf spearmen.

Black Guard are good. I wouldn't take more than 20 in a unit anyway. The only good thing about big units is steadfast, and they're already stubborn. Big units only really work with cheap troops. Black Guard still do what they're there to do.
Cold Ones got better in 8th. They're now immune to psychology and can re-roll stupidity thanks to a bsb. Even in protracted combats, their Str.4 can still make a difference. Sure, they aren't as utterly powerful as they were in 7th, but no heavy cavalry unit is!

I agree about the Hydra, it's more of a support unit now, but it's still one of the best support units in the game for it's points.
And yep, bolt throwers can go in the bin for both armies.


All in all, i must say that dark elf got near nothing new in their choices. But for high elf, white lion will become more powerfull than swords (we tryed them awesome!!, for same cost they can kill an hydra with 0 lost, the trick is to find they way!!), with so many new spell (lore), many thing to try! I gave you some last time, find more if you can. Minimum core of 25% will force some playe to actually consider spearman, who are very strong by the way.

Conclusion: both are very good army. And i'm sure they got many trick we didn't find yet. Strange.. i think I said that last time...:p

Well, you're entitled to your opinions, but you're not assessing the Dark Elves as an entire force, rather looking at individual units. Executioners became a viable choice too, preferable to Black Guard in some instances as the fight in two ranks rule made them more cost effective. White Lions are the new MVP's of High Elves, yes, but Swordmasters had to give up that spot. So...they got a good infantry unit by...swapping an infantry unit? Great!

And they can kill a Hydra with 0 lost? Ummm...no. No they can't. Not consistently, anyway.

I still think High Elf spearmen are overcosted. They're a decent choice, but a strong choice? Not really.

Conclusion: I agree, they're both good armies, I'm just of the opinion that Dark Elves have more variety in their choices and builds. Strange...I said that last time, too! :D

Haravikk
29-08-2010, 01:10
Also as a follow up question, my friend is thinking of making an Empire army, how do the HE usually fare against the Empire and their guns? It won't effect my choice really, i'm just curious.
One of the extra advantages of High Elves is that you can choose any of the main lores, or high magic. Lore of Life can allow you to slap +2 or +4 Toughness onto a unit, which immediately evaporates that squishy elf feeling (that really doesn't sound right!) :)

landingshortly
29-08-2010, 01:34
here's another thing:

you're not only new to whfb but you're coming from 40k. shooting in 40k is invaluably important in 40k whereas in whfb it is not necessarily.

especially in the new edition, you should enter most of your hth combats by round 2. this is realistic. so shooting phases are minimized ...

this is why i chose HE over DE for instance:

- have access to the eagles. awesome units to nerf wm or disrupt nmy movement flow
- have access to all magic lores. i use shadow or life most of the times.
- have some of the hardest hth combat hitters: white lions, swordmasters
- have a great durable alround unit: phx guard
- have the best magic phase (well, lizardmen too...)
- have awesome core with LSG if you find a way to play them efficiently
- have the best spears in the game
- have a model update pending. an all plastic army might be possible.

when playing HE, you can beat anyone. there are hard matchups (LM, Dwarfs), equally matched matchups (DE among them) and quite some matchups where you have the upper hand. i see them as a good alround army because you have a ridiculously strong movement and magic phase, a very strong combat phase and a fair shooting phase. the problem i see is the low toughness of the elf models but you can compensate that. you just have to play clever.

talking about "who's better, HE or DE" and arguing about highly situational things like "when your horde of SM are across the table, they are decimated" don't tell you anything. with a life mage, it'd be different.

Gatsby
29-08-2010, 05:05
They gave the DE army wide rule special rule to HE's, only made it better for them as its every combat phase not just the first, so HE's are a good choice for an all around army with no real weakness's only strengths.

CommissarSean
29-08-2010, 11:26
They gave the DE army wide rule special rule to HE's, only made it better for them as its every combat phase not just the first, so HE's are a good choice for an all around army with no real weakness's only strengths.

What do you mean no real weakness.
Firstly, HE are an elite army which is very much a double sided sword. Your armies tend to be MUCH smaller than other armies which means it is very easy for HE to get bogged down in combat. HE are a shock army and if you can't brake the enermy lines in a turn or two you loose, you can't take the causalities back.
Secondly I find them very bland. To be competitive you NEED to take a magic very army with combat. HE shooting is not the greatest.

Photographer
29-08-2010, 11:32
Dark Elves are easier to paint. Just gold and silver.Doesn't matter if they look drab because they're evil and corrupt. High Elves have armour plates but you have to make them appear more elegant with inks and fair skin.

Vile Druchii
01-09-2010, 12:17
especially in the new edition, you should enter most of your hth combats by round 2. this is realistic. so shooting phases are minimized ...

I take it you haven't played many battles against Dwarves or Empire in 8th yet then...:D



this is why i chose HE over DE for instance:

- have access to the eagles. awesome units to nerf wm or disrupt nmy movement flow
- have access to all magic lores. i use shadow or life most of the times.
- have some of the hardest hth combat hitters: white lions, swordmasters
- have a great durable alround unit: phx guard
- have the best magic phase (well, lizardmen too...)
- have awesome core with LSG if you find a way to play them efficiently
- have the best spears in the game
- have a model update pending. an all plastic army might be possible.

Magic is the big issue with me. I never said that High Elves' aren't a good army, I just said that they NEED magic to be competitive. I haven't seen a single competitive High Elf army that doesn't include magic, that's why I think Dark Elves can be more diverse, they're less reliant on that crutch.

Eagles are awesome, absolutely. White Lions and Swordmasters are good, but they don't compare to Chaos Warriors or Saurus. Even Dwarven infantry are generally more effective. Hitting hard is good in this edition, but you need to be able to take the damage too, and Swordmasters and White Lions don't have the capability. Pheonix Guard do, but they can't really dish it out. Any infantry unit in the Dark Elf army has the ability to do both simply because of the Cauldron of Blood.

I'd also argue about the spears thing. I'd say Night Goblins are the best spearmen in the game.

The thing High Elves do well is magic, and that's fine, it makes them a powerful army, a force to be reckoned with. But it doesn't make them a particularly diverse army.



talking about "who's better, HE or DE" and arguing about highly situational things like "when your horde of SM are across the table, they are decimated" don't tell you anything. with a life mage, it'd be different.

So...you're telling me not to argue about a 'highly situational' thing (any ranged weapons I have on the field aiming at an expensive and overpriced unit in order to cripple them before they reach combat - something I, and everyone I know, does in pretty much every game ever) by using a 'highly situational' argument of using a Life mage...right.

Haravikk
01-09-2010, 13:57
White Lions and Swordmasters are good, but they don't compare to Chaos Warriors or Saurus. Even Dwarven infantry are generally more effective. Hitting hard is good in this edition, but you need to be able to take the damage too, and Swordmasters and White Lions don't have the capability. Pheonix Guard do, but they can't really dish it out.
That's not completely true; striking first is a huge boon right off, and while High Elves might not have units that do both things well, infantry combats now are rarely won decisively with one unit against the other, it's all about supporting attacks. High Elves are manoeuvrable enough that they can force an enemy onto Phoenix Guard or a spear unit, then hit them in the side with Swordmasters, White Lions, or whatever to huge effect.

a18no
01-09-2010, 14:16
Magic is the big issue with me. I never said that High Elves' aren't a good army, I just said that they NEED magic to be competitive. I haven't seen a single competitive High Elf army that doesn't include magic, that's why I think Dark Elves can be more diverse, they're less reliant on that crutch.


Have you carefully red my post?? I just said that looking list on forum is a bad idea.

Why? Because High elf have a big problem: Teclis is the most broken lord in all the game. Worst, you got a banner at 50pts that can imporove it's capacity, and worst than that, you got the perfect unit to protect that super banner, don't even need a BSB for that.

So you got a no brainer trick: Teclis, 20-30 phoenix guard magic banner.

You said that high elf NEED magic to be competitive? It's because you didn't even try to go with no magic. You got one of the best army in magic defense, and one of the best army in CC offense. Yes, CC defense is not good with bad armor, low toughness and high cost. But have you tryed it??

I've seen dark elf player try a full corsair army many time, many have try the full khainite. Others have try many tricky build. All of them have try their build in competitive and friendly game. And all of them post batrep and tactic for that type of play. Go see the best dark elf forum, and you'll understand.

What have I seen on ulthuan?? Teclis, archmage book of hoeth, star dragon (less than before), and LSG... wow what a different build, some have try lothern seaguard.... A new player come and ask for help? The first answer is 90% of the time: don't play the archmage, take Teclis.... wow, are you so pride of your army that you think their's only one way to play it???

Forget the no brainer combo, and go play 20-30 games with something different, not 1 game or 1 tournement, but many games. And find more trick to the army. You saw the best ardboyz list with high elf?? We did one and find it amusing, very good with the good general.

And you think that High elf need magic? Go talk to lizard player, and see WHO will say that magic is a must!!

My conclusion: stop making list based on OTHERS try and error. Take the best looking army for you and the best history wise. If you prefer one figures range over another, but prefer the last one history? Go for it, and make conversion!! AND MAKE YOUR OWN LIST, make it yours, and you'll find that everything got a place to be played.

Vile Druchii
01-09-2010, 14:59
That's not completely true; striking first is a huge boon right off, and while High Elves might not have units that do both things well, infantry combats now are rarely won decisively with one unit against the other, it's all about supporting attacks. High Elves are manoeuvrable enough that they can force an enemy onto Phoenix Guard or a spear unit, then hit them in the side with Swordmasters, White Lions, or whatever to huge effect.

They might be manoeuvrable enough to redirect onto anvil units, but they're also too expensive to consistently do so throughout a whole battle without their units being whittled away to nothing. It's not a tactic that works with expensive, low Toughness elite troops. A unit of Pheonix Guard may get away with taking a charge from, say, a large unit of Goblins (maybe - sheer amount of attacks from the Goblins, as well as more ranks could beat the Guard...), and then the Goblins take a flank charge from a unit of Swordmasters. The problem is, both of those really expensive units are now locked in a battle with a gigantic unit that is slowly killing them, but not going anywhere thanks to steadfast. And then when they finally get rid of the Goblins, maybe over a couple of turns, both units are weakened and you've just wasted two turns and a few hundred points holding up an inconsequential unit. Seems like a win for the Goblin player rather than master tactics from the High Elf one...


Have you carefully red my post?? I just said that looking list on forum is a bad idea.

Did you even look at my post? I said I wasn't looking at lists on forums.


Why? Because High elf have a big problem: Teclis is the most broken lord in all the game. Worst, you got a banner at 50pts that can imporove it's capacity, and worst than that, you got the perfect unit to protect that super banner, don't even need a BSB for that.

So you got a no brainer trick: Teclis, 20-30 phoenix guard magic banner.

Teclis is broken, no big shock there, but he's fairly easily killed. I've faced him five times now and he gets an awful lot of attention from me, only because if I kill him, I pretty much win the game.


You said that high elf NEED magic to be competitive? It's because you didn't even try to go with no magic. You got one of the best army in magic defense, and one of the best army in CC offense. Yes, CC defense is not good with bad armor, low toughness and high cost. But have you tryed it??

I've played against High Elves with no magic and they're fairly easy to smash apart, with whatever army I've used. Even my Ogres don't struggle against High Elf combat armies. They do need magic to be competitive. Close Combat defense USED TO be effective, with ASF, low Toughness and armour, you could still wipe out front ranks and prevent return attacks. Not anymore.


I've seen dark elf player try a full corsair army many time, many have try the full khainite. Others have try many tricky build. All of them have try their build in competitive and friendly game. And all of them post batrep and tactic for that type of play. Go see the best dark elf forum, and you'll understand.


You tell me to stop looking on forums for army lists and tactics, then you tell me to look on forums for army lists and tactics? I actually PLAY the game, I have firsthand experience of what works, what doesn't work and what might work. I don't play math-hammer, I don't build uber powerful lists all day, I play games and discuss them with my group.


What have I seen on ulthuan?? Teclis, archmage book of hoeth, star dragon (less than before), and LSG... wow what a different build, some have try lothern seaguard.... A new player come and ask for help? The first answer is 90% of the time: don't play the archmage, take Teclis.... wow, are you so pride of your army that you think their's only one way to play it???

I've seen quite a few decent High Elf armies and, like I've said, all of them have included a mage, most have included Teclis. Sea Guard are still too expensive for what they do. They can be effective, not too bad, but still, expensive.

And what on Earth are you talking about? High Elves aren't my army! I told the original poster that I thought Dark Elves have more diversity in the competitive builds and that High Elves rely on magic a bit too much. There's quite a few responses to my messages, but none of them have been able to refute this!


Forget the no brainer combo, and go play 20-30 games with something different, not 1 game or 1 tournement, but many games. And find more trick to the army. You saw the best ardboyz list with high elf?? We did one and find it amusing, very good with the good general.

Tournaments don't interest me, and I've probably played about 50 games of 8th so far. We all concluded that High Elves needed magic to be competitive. I'm really not interested in ardboyz and I haven't looked at any lists from there, but I bet that, if there is any High Elf lists that are combat oriented, they won't fare so well.


And you think that High elf need magic? Go talk to lizard player, and see WHO will say that magic is a must!!

I have talked to a few Lizard players. Magic is awesome with Lizardmen, easily the best in the game, but they can run well without it. They have the diversity of troop and character choices to be able to work as a solid combat force, capable of dealing out the damage as well as taking it. High Elves don't.


My conclusion: stop making list based on OTHERS try and error. Take the best looking army for you and the best history wise. If you prefer one figures range over another, but prefer the last one history? Go for it, and make conversion!! AND MAKE YOUR OWN LIST, make it yours, and you'll find that everything got a place to be played.

I've never said that I was looking at others' lists, I play the game myself, so this is my (and my gaming groups) firsthand experience. But I definitely agree with you about taking the army that's miniatures and history appeals to you, it's just that the original poster was asking opinions on High and Dark Elves, and I provided mine. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

a18no
01-09-2010, 15:12
No problem at all!

I'm just tired of high elf saying that their army is the worst, that dark elf are better cause of so many good items... blablabla. Stop complaining and try to find way around!

One trick for you that can beat the "unkillable" lord with the pendant: a lord high elf with the sword that allow no armor save and the enchanted item that force re-roll of ward save. He got 4 attacks that always re-roll, wound on 3+, no armor save, re-roll the 4- ward... ouch!

Yes dark elf got good magic item, but the common list is so big and good too!!

GenerationTerrorist
01-09-2010, 16:04
I used to collect both armies. However, in 7th edition, I found that I got very bored very quickly with the Dark Elves.

So I sold them, and invested the money made in more models for my HE and WoC armies. Neither of which I think I will ever get bored of.

Vile Druchii
01-09-2010, 16:09
No problem at all!

I'm just tired of high elf saying that their army is the worst, that dark elf are better cause of so many good items... blablabla. Stop complaining and try to find way around!

One trick for you that can beat the "unkillable" lord with the pendant: a lord high elf with the sword that allow no armor save and the enchanted item that force re-roll of ward save. He got 4 attacks that always re-roll, wound on 3+, no armor save, re-roll the 4- ward... ouch!

Yes dark elf got good magic item, but the common list is so big and good too!!

I think the issue is that the way round the enemies tactics is, almost inevitably, magic based, and therein lies my point. Magic is too powerful and High Elves are too good at it to ignore, but it creates this crutch for them as an army in that they come to rely on it more than a lot of armies. Just as well they're fantastic at it and have one of the most overpowered characters in the game geared up for it, really! ;)

Dark Elves get all those common items as well. What happens if an Assassin pops out to accept that character's challenge? That combo doesn't allow for very much else, and an Assassin won't have too much of a hard time getting a Killing Blow. How about if the Dark Elf is armed in the same way? (It's actually a fairly effective build and can guarantee a couple of wounds, but it works so much better for Dark Elves because Pheonix Guard have to re-roll their ward saves too! :evilgrin:) Personally, I don't use the Pendant on my fighty characters, I save it for my Sorceress. Regeneration and a 2+ ward vs flaming attacks is a much nicer combo, and allows for a decent weapon too.

a18no
01-09-2010, 16:28
I think the issue is that the way round the enemies tactics is, almost inevitably, magic based, and therein lies my point. Magic is too powerful and High Elves are too good at it to ignore, but it creates this crutch for them as an army in that they come to rely on it more than a lot of armies. Just as well they're fantastic at it and have one of the most overpowered characters in the game geared up for it, really! ;)

Dark Elves get all those common items as well. What happens if an Assassin pops out to accept that character's challenge? That combo doesn't allow for very much else, and an Assassin won't have too much of a hard time getting a Killing Blow. How about if the Dark Elf is armed in the same way? (It's actually a fairly effective build and can guarantee a couple of wounds, but it works so much better for Dark Elves because Pheonix Guard have to re-roll their ward saves too! :evilgrin:) Personally, I don't use the Pendant on my fighty characters, I save it for my Sorceress. Regeneration and a 2+ ward vs flaming attacks is a much nicer combo, and allows for a decent weapon too.

The combo cost 55pts for High elf (enough place for ward or other things), the same is 65 for dark elf (enough place for pendant!). And the lord don't have to challenge. Against each other, the high elf got better chance. Strike before! Could even equip it with a GW, and only the 15pts item for re-roll ward... 4S6 attacks, always re-roll, re-roll ennemy ward, for 170pts or so... Not a bad lord with Ld10. Have plenty of space for protection, don't forget the dam dragon armor.

Strange, I use the same combo for my lord!! With +3 Str weapon, fit perfectly: 4S7, re-roll to hit, regen, ward 2+ when regen burn, 3+ armor on foot.

Vile Druchii
01-09-2010, 18:37
The combo cost 55pts for High elf (enough place for ward or other things), the same is 65 for dark elf (enough place for pendant!). And the lord don't have to challenge. Against each other, the high elf got better chance. Strike before! Could even equip it with a GW, and only the 15pts item for re-roll ward... 4S6 attacks, always re-roll, re-roll ennemy ward, for 170pts or so... Not a bad lord with Ld10. Have plenty of space for protection, don't forget the dam dragon armor.

Strange, I use the same combo for my lord!! With +3 Str weapon, fit perfectly: 4S7, re-roll to hit, regen, ward 2+ when regen burn, 3+ armor on foot.

I can largely agree here, but the problem with that combo is that it's fairly situational. You're spending 55 points on ignoring armour and forcing re-rolls on wards (as you say, 65 with Dark Elves). If you don't get into combat with a character with a ward AND a decent armour save, it's wasted points anyway, and it's by no means competitive against other armies. It's a cute little combo though if you're planning for your Lord to crack heavy armour, but I like to make better use for my Lords (boosting kills in combat so you weaken units quicker tends to be a favoured tactic, so in that instance, a halberd works just as well...and it's very sneaky and Dark Elf-y to sacrifice units to powerful characters to keep them distracted from your Lord! :evilgrin:). If you go with a great weapon, you lose the ability to ignore armour saves too, plus your armour save may not be up to much, leaving you open to return attacks not only from the character you're attacking, but the unit he's with too. And I don't know how I'd begin to take on the "6's to hit, Toughness 6" Ogre character that regularly crops up now! He relies on neither armour or a ward, but he's massively protected. That would be 65 points badly spent! :cries:

I do like forcing re-rolls on wards though, I just find it's very situational, and unless you're up against Bretonnians, High Elves (Pheonix Guard hate it!) or you want to go character hunting (not the best thing to do against Dark Elves anyway...Assassins love those heavily armed character hunters!) I think there's better places to spend the points.

Like that Dark Elf Lord set-up, though! Good offence and defense!

a18no
01-09-2010, 19:17
The 15pts item for re-roll ward is a must in many of my army. Like you said, brettonian/high elve phoenix guard are common here. But don't forget deamon! And the item force re-roll on figs in contact with him, allowing many attack made by his own unit more re-roll.

The tyrant with T6, re-roll to wounds is one of my build. A guy in my ogre bus that never died, even survived unscratched from more than 16 attacks directed against him at the same time!! From spears and then after from swordsmasters!

The combo is way better than the one with -2 to hit.

Finarflin
01-09-2010, 19:17
I have played both DE and HE, and I would find it difficult to say which one is clearly better tactic+rules wise. Personally I prefer DE as they are evil :evilgrin:.

As a few people have mentioned if you really like HE models and DE rules then do that. Perhaps these are not really DE but just exiled HE having to raid and pillage to sustain themselves (although this may reduce your unit options). I would say as long as your units are clear distinctive from one another, and it is pretty clear what they are, then it does not matter what you use for models. E.g. the Gobbotonia (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195596) army here on warseer. For instance I adore corsair models and fluff, so I am using corsair BG (corsairs with warrior spears) and will probably be using corsair warriors (corsairs with DE shields). I would probably not use any HE models without some conversions and fancy evil-ish paint schemes though.

Ar-Gimilzor
01-09-2010, 23:11
Hello, i'm a 40k player but after not being able to play at the local GW recently because of everyone playing fantasy i have decided that i would like the make a WHFB army (plus i hear it's tactically more challenging/fun)
Am I actually reading this? There really is a god :angel:

As for HE/DE, don't choose based on which army is "better" imo. Choose which army appeals to you--colours, models, fluff, play style.

Jorelth
08-09-2010, 02:05
I'm new to Warhammer and I am having this same dilemma! So I've decided to go with High Elf to start with, just because I'd already bought the battalion, but I'm slowly working on a Dark Elf army, too. Having never played a game yet, I have no idea which will be the better army tactics wise, but I like them both for a variety of reasons.

Tekomandor
08-09-2010, 06:46
Play with whatever army has nicer models ;)
There both good beginer armys as they compete in every phase of the game.