PDA

View Full Version : Magic: is a level 4 a no-brainer?



ewar
25-08-2010, 13:38
In my experience so far with 8th, I've found (like everyone) that magic can be a complete game changer (and breaker in some instances).

The new system was obviously designed to allow armies to bring one or two low level wizards and still get some spells off. However, I find that these days it seems like a prerequisite for an army to bring a level 4.

In the games I've played with my lizards, if I can take out the opposing level 4 I literally have total domination of the magic phase. I found myself thinking about it this morning whilst I read this months Island of Blood batrep in WD - the high elf player brought a single level 1.

If the skaven had brought a Grey Seer, the elves are likely to have been completely dominated in the magic phase.

So, does anyone have any success in an all comers list with low level wizards? Or are you paying 150pts for a man in a pointy hat with a scroll?

I personally don't see how it can be a good idea, but I'm open to suggestions!

Bakdoi
25-08-2010, 13:54
For me (beastmen) i have found my lvl 4 is a quick target and have better games when I run a couple of lvl 1's instead. It helps that I have the heardstone which gives out free power dice and with more wizards it means more channeling.

Bloody Nunchucks
25-08-2010, 14:27
I play High elves and i always bring a level 4, i agree that if you take out the opposing high level wizard you have domination in your magic phase.

ewar
25-08-2010, 14:29
Do you struggle to dispel enemy castings though, if you're at a 3 point disadvantage (effectively a whole dice)?

I've heard that running 4 level 1s is a possible strategy: you get 4x arcane items (handy) and a miscast isn't the end of the world.

Not sure it'd be too much use for me, as skink priests aren't great. Maybe good for Empire?

Malorian
25-08-2010, 14:33
I a high level caster is important, and an interesting thing to note is that items that give +1 to cast and dispel are usually 50-65 points, while upgrading a lvl 3 to a lvl 4 is typically 35 points.

A steal if you ask me.

ewar
25-08-2010, 14:46
Especially if you price in an extra spell (valued at 15pts), so you're only paying 20pts for +1 cast/dispel.

I just can't see how armies with low level mages can cope with a decent level 4. I know people said 7th was "all or nothing"; but 8th seems to be just "all" or you're toast.

I'd be interested to hear how others are getting on without the big daddy mages.

goodz
25-08-2010, 15:26
I agree that your forced to take one for the most part. It especially sucks when your level 4 is far inferior to another armies level 4 :(.

With my chaos i was hoping to find a combination of arcane items that could hopefully kill a level 4, using only a level 1 and a level 2. Feedback scroll is probably good for 1 wound. But that still leaves 2 more wounds and with the high popularity of lore of life it seems likley that he will heal that wound if u don't do it in the same turn:(

decker_cky
25-08-2010, 15:49
Whether you have L1s or L4s, most armies can only dispel by throwing a pile of dice at one key spell. L4s might be able to save a die or two, but it's risky. I haven't run L1s, but I've faced a L4 with just a L2 and didn't do too badly. They got off some magic, but I could stop the spells I really needed to.

Goodz...chaos can easily take out a L4. Black Tongue + puppet = good chance of killing/removing D3 levels from wizard (or at least putting a hole in a unit).

Bakdoi
25-08-2010, 16:06
While there is a 3 point diff betwen a lvl 1 and a 4 as a beastman player I have the heardstone advantage which gives me that extra power dice when casting to make up for the diffrence. Then when I bring more then 1 wizard its an extra dice per. As people are adjusting to the new edition I have found that they will skim a dice when bringing a lvl 4 and if they miss the dispel of my cast I have to remind them they can not use that lvl 4 to dispel any longer.

This last weekend I play vs a HE army which used Teclis. I was able to outdo him by bringing 4 lvl 1 bray shamans (300 pts) and a heardstone. Each of my casting turns I had 12 power dice and durring his i was lucky with 4 channeling averaging 2 extra power dice the whole game. It was one of the few times i have seen an army (not lizardmen) stand toe to toe with magic vs Teclis at our game store.

Malorian
25-08-2010, 16:30
Yes, beastmen have some synergies, but I don't think this really works for any other race.

The only other time I can see taking a bunch of lvl 1s is for necromancers in a VC army so you could still spam IoN on a single dice without the fear of not being able to cast again with a failed cast.

Haravikk
25-08-2010, 16:35
Well I don't field much magic being a Dwarf player :)

But level 4's tend to be better value per level in terms of number of spells they can cast, and the ease with which they can cast them. But if you're fielding a level 4 then you need some protection from both enemy mage hunters, and miscasts, as otherwise it can be a big gamble, but then that seems to be the way of magic under 8th edition anyway.

Fielding a naked level 4 and level 2 seems like a decent compromise, as it means if your level 4 wizard explodes or gets sniped, then you still have some back-up. Plus for the magic items people typically heap onto a level 4 you can usually afford a level 1 wizard anyway, level 2 just makes extra sure you get good value out of them.

Darkangeldentist
25-08-2010, 16:37
I really don't feel a level 4 is a no brainer at all. A big part is still determined by the army that's taking them. Vampires and Lizardmen, High & Dark elves and of course Daemons all have ways of imsuring a decent magic phase every turn and also tend to like or even rely on a decent magical component too. That makes a level 4 so much more desirable because he can make better use of the dice since he needs one less on average to cast spells. If you desire to attempt to cast more than a couple of spells each turn then a level 4 is definitely the best way to go.

However if you don't need to be casting support spells and magic is just for defense and/or damage then a couple of low level wizards are fine in my opinion. Empire, Lizards (without a Slaan) Bretonnians and warriors of chaos I think can all do fine without much magic. In part because they have a magic item that can generate more dispel dice or have magic resistence. (The brets get magic resistance just from the presence of a damsel so would have more than a respectable ward save just from that.) Empire have the rod of power and warrior priests. Lizards that item that put 2 power dice into the dispel pool.

The bonus to your rolls is nice but it's how many dice you have to dispel with that really matters. (Play a game against a good tomb kings army and I think you'll agree that stopping lots of spells is nearly impossible even for a level 4.

Lets face it, a level 4 is a big chunk of your character points and if you roll pathetically for the magic then even that high level may not let you cast much. Also there is the significant issue of what happens when you miscast. Some armies have ways around the worst of it but others have ways to make it worse. I have witnessed at least 3 games where a Slaan has nuked his own massive block of temple guard thanks to that new miscast table (and that's with the cupped hand of the old ones) managing to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It's spectacular for one thing.

Commissar Vaughn
25-08-2010, 16:42
Well, in most of my games Ive found that you really need two wizards , but that they dont need to be higher than level 2. This has proven sufficient for contesting against level 4s and their buddies. I even out magicked a slann (l4) and skink priest (l3 IIRC) with a pair of level 1s.

Dont forget: 2d6 powerdice + channeling and arcane items etc = an average of just 8 dice. Thats enough for 2 spells, maybe three if theyre small ones. Oh, and theres Garaunteed to be enough dice to stop at least half of them.

So whats the point in having more than 4 levels of magic in any army no matter how big? All it results in is a longer magic phase while you try and remember whos got what and which one to cast....


Ive found the subtle magics of a single level 2 Grey wizard to be more effective than a level 4 with a BIGBOOM spell, theyre lower casting value so I can almost always get them, they sound fairly harmless so they often get waved through...untill your opponent realises how many combats he's lost as a result. :D

ChrisIronBrow
25-08-2010, 19:21
Especially if you price in an extra spell (valued at 15pts), so you're only paying 20pts for +1 cast/dispel.

I just can't see how armies with low level mages can cope with a decent level 4. I know people said 7th was "all or nothing"; but 8th seems to be just "all" or you're toast.

I'd be interested to hear how others are getting on without the big daddy mages.

Tha's been m experience so far. It really hurts armies that struggle to bring a lvl 4.

My chaos daemons for example have little to no options for a lvl 4 until about 2500 pts.

I can try taking a horde of Horrors to get a lvl 4, but really that's just to allow me to dispel. Even with the potency of Lvl 2 Heralds of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery, I'm losing lots of magic phases to cheap lvl 4's.

Tae
25-08-2010, 19:25
My WoC don't take one (and never will).
My DoC don't take one (and couldn't in 2,000 points anyway).
My DE will take one, but did in 7th Ed as well, so no change for 8th.
If/when I do O&G I will take a couple, which is the only change from 7th to 8th in any army I play/will play.

I personally don't find it a 'no brainer'. It might be for some armies (such as those with cheap characters), but neither of my Chaos armies can afford it (as my WoC run with Sigvald for Ld10 Stubborn). So I don't have the choice. However I can't say that I've particuarly missed it, I even emerged victorious against the dreaded Slaan+Life TG bunker using my WoC and it's solitary Level 1 Sorcerer.

ChrisIronBrow
25-08-2010, 19:28
So whats the point in having more than 4 levels of magic in any army no matter how big? All it results in is a longer magic phase while you try and remember whos got what and which one to cast....



In my experience it's to allow you to take casualties and still have a magic phase- dispel attempt. Also, some armies have access to +power dice items so in these armies more wizards are very very good.

Ultimatley if your opponent has a lvl 4, and you don't you need to not count on your magic phase doing anything.

Bringing a lvl 4 is like bringing several dispel scrolls, except you get to use them offensivley as well.

Gorak
25-08-2010, 19:33
i rock a lvl4 at 2000pts with great-shamman and beastlord at 2000 with a doombull it's a lvl 2 and I find with smart dispelling I don't miss the extra +2 too much.

w3rm
25-08-2010, 19:45
With skaven theres not much point in taking a walord except for funsies. He's not very surviveable, he can kill much. Ok yeah he's cheap. But its not nessecary with the Grey Seer's Ld 7. He is much better as he is just as survivable, much faster with skitterleap and can actually kill stuff. I do like to run a warlord but he's just not as good as a seer with Talisman of Preservation and a Power Scroll.

Lordsaradain
25-08-2010, 19:47
Yes, for me a lvl 4 caster is definetly a no-brainer. It's just as cheap as 2 lvl 2's but gives me +4 to cast/dispell intead of +2.

The +4 to dispell is just so important, especially when my opponent also fields a lvl 4.

I would consider playing without a lvl 4 if my opponent also agreed to play without one, or if we were playing some thematic scenario of our own design.

WoC - A Chaos Lord is not worth the points so a sorcerer lord is a no-brainer
Empire/O&G - You can easily field both a fighting lord and a lvl 4 caster in a 2k game
LM - Slaan, best caster in the game, need I say more?
VC - A vampire Lord is a must, although I admit I might leave him at lvl 3 in case I want some different vampiric powers.
OK, DoC, BM, DE - Haven't used them yet, akthough I imagine I will bring lvl 4's for all except OK prehaps, they dont really need the +4 to cast

madden
25-08-2010, 19:50
None of my lists use a level 4 delfs and beasts use a level 3 but no others I find they work ok as there's only so many dice and cheaper ones give a better range of spells plus it's no worry if one blows it/up in casting, so not a no brainer from my lists.(been in hobby 20+ years have 10fantasy armys approx 2500/3000 pts each)

Kal Taron
25-08-2010, 19:52
Well for WEs it's pretty easy: the lvl4 is about the most worthwhile character by a long shot. Next comes the Branchwraith for the fighting power and the very desirable extra dispel die. The rest simply aren't that great or cost a hell lot of points. Or both.

Desert Rain
25-08-2010, 21:12
I've always used a L.4 with my High Elves ever since I started with them. I have promised myself to try out the 2 L.2s magic phase a few times but haven't got around to do it yet.
With High Elves you can at least get a +4 to dispel with a L.2 thanks to their bonus +1 and the Staff of Sorcery.

Malendil
25-08-2010, 21:40
I have played 3 games without a Level 4 and 2 games with a level 4. I am using Orcs and Goblins so in the games without the level 4 I was reasonably able to hold my own with their great magic defence. However I found the latter turns when playing against a Slann Mage extremely difficult. Even with all of my dispell dice the +4 to cast that my opponent enjoyed forced me to roll an extra dice to be sure to dispell, which left more dice for him to cast with.

I found that when I did include the Level 4 the magic phase was much more even. These are based on my experiences which are mostly limited to playing against opponents who use a level 4. But so far my general impression is that it is better to have one in that not.

Enigmatik1
25-08-2010, 21:59
I originally thought that not having access to a Level 4 would be problematic, but so far it hasn't been...and this from the army with one of the worst magic defenses in the game. Then again, the best magic defense available to Tomb Kings is to send several Tomb Scorpions after the annoying Wizard. It beats paying damn near 250 points for a Level 3 PoS Lord (compared to a Tomb King).

I've yet to field a Liche High Priest in 8E and I haven't suffered terribly because of it. If I'm just plain terrified of enemy magic, I field a Casket instead.

LanceSaba
25-08-2010, 22:16
I go against the wave so I field a DE lvl 2 for many reasons. One i have the dagger to give a boost to my magic phase and two which you really have to think about is that you really only need two spells as you are going to chuck much of your dice at these spell, so the only benefit of a lvl 4 is the dispelling for me. at at just a -2 disadvantage i don't feel like spending 125 points for the difference I would rather add more troops.

Djekar
26-08-2010, 05:40
There are many good reasons for leaving the level 4's at home in this thread.

So far for me, as both an O&G player and a WoC player, I've found a level 4 to be invaluable. With a level 4 and the Spirit Totem, my Orcs are able to stop almost every spell that comes at them. The Chaos Lord is super expensive still, and didn't see that much of an improvement in 8th, so he is still inferior to the Sorcerer Lord. Plus the extra spells that I get are great, because if I have magic I dang well want it to be good!

Forge the Undead
26-08-2010, 06:32
it really depends on your spells imo, I play VC, and if you plan at throwing 1-2 dice at a spell the extra levels really help, but i usually go for the low level casters because if im doing a 1 dice spam invocation of nehek, and I flop it, my level 4 caster is just an expensive paper weight with a fancy hat.

cptcosmic
26-08-2010, 07:32
I like the level 4 caster alot more than a melee character. The caster adds something, unlike the melee character, what the rest of the army is not able to do => cast spells & carry arcane items.

and with the new lores & higher casting values, the +4 is good to have.

will_rain
26-08-2010, 23:13
I think the nature of the lore you want to use is important. I use big waaagh focusing on the spells gorks warpath and waaagh, neither of which need range so i can happily keep the lv4 wizard a safe distance away, and will never be wasting dice by not being in range due to only having 1 mage.

I could see arguement for 2 lv2s more for lores that focus on (shorter) ranged spells to give more flexibility and to make sure you always effectively use the dice agianst good targets.

Brother Kite
26-08-2010, 23:24
This last weekend I play vs a HE army which used Teclis. I was able to outdo him by bringing 4 lvl 1 bray shamans (300 pts) and a heardstone. Each of my casting turns I had 12 power dice and durring his i was lucky with 4 channeling averaging 2 extra power dice the whole game. It was one of the few times i have seen an army (not lizardmen) stand toe to toe with magic vs Teclis at our game store.

I remember my friend telling me once during an old edition he took teclis on with ikit claw and it was neck and neck all day long as for me im taking 2 goblin shamans level 2 and i got skarsnik ready to back my ass up.

Chicago Slim
27-08-2010, 01:49
Yes, beastmen have some synergies, but I don't think this really works for any other race.

The only other time I can see taking a bunch of lvl 1s is for necromancers in a VC army so you could still spam IoN on a single dice without the fear of not being able to cast again with a failed cast.

Greenskins. BSB with Mork's Spirit Totem (+3 dispel dice), and a Lvl 1-2 night goblin shaman with a dispel scroll. You're down probably 2, maybe 3 or even 4 (if they took a +1 to cast thing) on any given roll, but you usually have about as many dispel dice as they have casting dice. That'll put a hole in just about anyone's magic phase (as someone else suggested, a dedicated opponent will get some spells off, but you'll have the ability to stop the really important stuff, unless it just can't be stopped...)

High Elves can roll with a single Lvl 2, as well, since they always get +1 to dispel (putting them just 1 point behind a typical Lvl 4 caster...) Of course, High Elves have some good offensive magic, so many players wouldn't dream of a bringing just a single scroll caddy... but it would mean more points for fighting with!

freddieyu
27-08-2010, 02:31
It may seem like a no brainer, until he gets sucked into the warp....after all not all wizards are teclis or a slann with the cupped hands...

I talked to a friend yesterday who played versus a Mannfred led VC army using his orcs....turn 1 mannfred casts purple sun with IF, then the template misfired and he killed half of his grave guard unit...after which the resultant IF has a s10 large pie plate obliterate the rest of the GG, and mannfred gets sucked into the warp...VC player concedes immediately..

They play another game immediately..turn 2 mannfred IF's again and gets sucked into a hole..tsk tsk tsk....

Synnister
27-08-2010, 03:27
Me and 2 buddies are playing a campaign (started at 500pts). The last round they both had lvl 4's and I only had a lvl2 and I completely dominated them. Im playing O&G, one buddy is playing HE and the other is playing WoC. I didn't even have the banner for extra dispell dice so it's very possible to win without a lvl 4 if your opponent has a lvl 4.

Bloody Nunchucks
27-08-2010, 03:53
i have tried using 2 level 2's and it did not go well for me. i was playing chaos warriors and they got off a lot of death spells and killed my BSB and korhil by turn 3, not good

Djekar
27-08-2010, 06:18
It may seem like a no brainer, until he gets sucked into the warp....after all not all wizards are teclis or a slann with the cupped hands...

Not all of us use the new BRB miscast table either. Long live the 'Eadbangerz chart! Long live the Orcs!

Vsurma
27-08-2010, 07:33
Armies that can get additional DD such as dwarves, empire and orks can leave the lv4 at home if they wish but I still don't see any reason to do so, the cost from lv2 to lv4 is not that bad considering most people play 2400pts games (as far as I know)

Lizards and DE will be rolling a free dice per cast meaning you are at a negative 5.5 to dispel on average, that is hard to overcome.

Elves and vamps have extra dice...

xxRavenxx
27-08-2010, 07:58
I do not think its a no brainer. I think its just a subtle choice, that is probably there to be decided on a player by player basis.

My Wariors of Chaos use a single lvl 4 caster, as they have good stats to help protect from assasination attempts, and can live in a scary as hell unit to protect them more.

Inversely, because my sorcerer often uses death (and for this very reason no less) - the enemy lvl 4 wizard normally only lasts seconds, as I throw a handfull of dice into one of death's targeted removal spells, and melt the buggers face, freeing me of concern for my opponents magic phase.

My goblins, knowing that a unit champion can position near them and shiv them down, like to split into multiple lvl 1/2 wizards, which also frees up the precious lord spots for getting in the mighty LD7 :P

WarmbloodedLizard
27-08-2010, 09:16
no brainer for most armies. the only advantage more low level wizards have over a level 4 is redundancy and more items.

ewar
27-08-2010, 10:39
I do not think its a no brainer. I think its just a subtle choice, that is probably there to be decided on a player by player basis.

My Wariors of Chaos use a single lvl 4 caster, as they have good stats to help protect from assasination attempts, and can live in a scary as hell unit to protect them more.

Inversely, because my sorcerer often uses death (and for this very reason no less) - the enemy lvl 4 wizard normally only lasts seconds, as I throw a handfull of dice into one of death's targeted removal spells, and melt the buggers face, freeing me of concern for my opponents magic phase.

My goblins, knowing that a unit champion can position near them and shiv them down, like to split into multiple lvl 1/2 wizards, which also frees up the precious lord spots for getting in the mighty LD7 :P


That's a good analysis I think - though I suspect as the army books get done that all of the DD generating items will be toned down. Once OnG no longer have access to buckets of DD then the +4 to dispel from a level 4 may become more tempting.

Actually, from people's responses to this, I think it seems that some lists its a no brainer (i.e. those without boosts to magic defence from abilities/items) and those lists that have other things to fall back on, such as Spirit Totem etc, which frees them up to lower the level of the caster.

cptcosmic
27-08-2010, 12:04
I think a level 4 is the best choice for the most armies. For the investment you get something what the rest of your army is not capable of doing and beside that, magic can be the anwser for everything.

you have weak troops? buff yours or debuff the enemy
the enemy have big horde units? nuke em with pretty explosions
you get shot down? raise your units back or make them tough
you get blasted with magic? ban it with scroll or high bonus to your dispel throw

Alltaken
27-08-2010, 15:16
Cheap lvl 4's are really no brainer, the 4+ difference is worth all along.

Costlier lvl 4's requier more though.

Armies with high magic defense might no need them really, or they can simply top their defense.

"Abuse lvl4" are kinda no brainer. Well Slann is insta lvl4 but pretty much a no brainer. Though I don't like him in TG bunker anymore, deffinetly solo slann for me, feels safer.

ramongoroth
27-08-2010, 16:04
For VC I don't think it's a no brainer. Getting a lord to lv4 gets expensive and you pay extra for his combat profile. If you fully deck the vampire out for casting it's more of a gamble than other armies due to him being your general and if he does die to mishaps you're whole army starts to evaporate. I have played both a level 3 and a level 4 and both have worked. It depends on how you design the list if you need to bump the lord to 4.

Chicago Slim
27-08-2010, 20:51
Armies that can get additional DD such as dwarves, empire and orks can leave the lv4 at home if they wish but I still don't see any reason to do so, the cost from lv2 to lv4 is not that bad considering most people play 2400pts games (as far as I know)

For me, a lot of it has to do with balancing the allocation of Hero vs. Lord points... Taking a Level 2 means the points come from the Hero section, which makes it possible to, for example, put my Warboss on a Wyvern...


Elves and vamps have extra dice...

... but still can never have more than 12 dice in their pool. So, if they roll well (like, a 5-5, 6-5 or 6-6) then they may hit the pool cap...

Tae
27-08-2010, 21:36
Here's a question:

Is it VIABLE (not relying on luck) to even counter the Magic-Heavy armies of 8th without a level 4 wizard and just a level 2 wizard?

Yep, hell I've managed it twice with just a level 1 wizard.

One was against a Life Slaan Temple Guard bunker, the other was against a Tzeentch 50+ horror unit with accompanying dual Heralds (Life and Death) and Lord of Change.

Both beaten by armies containing a single Level 1 wizard and neither particuarly relied upon luck - the Slaan was defeated by MoS Warriors just slashing up his unit faster than he could bring them back, and the Tzeentch was derailed by 2 units of ASF'ing Daemonettes blitzing through it.

Now granted those are two armies that can probably withstand it better than others, but I would argue most armies have some way of countering the level 4 mage that doesn't involve magic (hell, it's even possible with magic given the right circumstances).

So I would repeat what I said earlier, definately not a no brainer, even for the cheapest level 4's.

Vsurma
28-08-2010, 12:18
For me, a lot of it has to do with balancing the allocation of Hero vs. Lord points... Taking a Level 2 means the points come from the Hero section, which makes it possible to, for example, put my Warboss on a Wyvern...



... but still can never have more than 12 dice in their pool. So, if they roll well (like, a 5-5, 6-5 or 6-6) then they may hit the pool cap...

Yea, I mean the amount of times my opponent has been pissed off to have 12 casting dice.... oh wait that is what you want! Especially if the enemy has less than 6 DD.

What is your point? That 1/6 times you will have paid a few measly points for no gain and this then makes it not worth while even though 5/6 you gain tremendously?

freddieyu
28-08-2010, 13:09
I think the point is you can survive a game these days without a lvl 4. Of course there is the advantage in the magic phase with a lvl 4, rightly so he's a lord for pete's sake, but i still believe magic domination isnt the end of evrrything in 8th...its still much better now than 7th ed

Vsurma
28-08-2010, 15:51
Dominion probably not, but the question really is should you pay an extra 100-200 points to upgrade your lv2 mage into a lv4.

Personally I would say that for almost every army the answer is yes but if someone really wants to not use a lv4 then depending on the army they can get away with it.

Nocculum
28-08-2010, 22:34
Two level twos (who takes level ones when given the option in any edition, short of Scroll Caddies?) will always functionally be better than a single level four.

I run a level 2 lord, a level one vampire and a necromancer at my current large-ish list sized games. I run +2 dispel vs larger spells, and use he +1 against spells I know I can dispel, and when casting, I'm always careful to Invocate through my lower casters, and save the Lore of Beasts for the Lord.

+3 (inate ability of lore triggering) is worth the 50 points you save for the lower magic level, since he has all the spells anyway from Forbidden Lore.

ScytheSwathe
30-08-2010, 00:21
Depends on the army. The clincher is the extra magic defence in most cases.
Dwarves can't. Orcs and goblins get good magic defence anyway. They get away with it quite nicely.
High elves can also sort out a good magic defence without a level 4*, and vampires/tomb kings can absorb much of what you throw at them, while only dispelling the really critical spells, so they can generally get away with it.

With magic offence;
* High elves need it, its to only way to get templates into the army barring single use dragons, and templates are pretty much the only way of thinning true horde type armies. They also benefit from things like flesh to stone, okkams mindrazor and the -S and T spells in shadow.

Otherwise most armies can get away with lvl2's for magic offence, or even just by using war machines instead (dwarves, empire, skaven, O&G)

lcfr
30-08-2010, 00:23
Am I the only player out there who isn't upgrading his lvl3 to a lvl4? I like tooling my GBS up to fight like a Beastlord, so I don't usually have 35pts to spare for a lvl4 upgrade.

SideshowLucifer
30-08-2010, 00:36
With VC and Dark Elves I tend to stick to level 3 main casters with backups at level 1 or 2.

Enigmatik1
30-08-2010, 01:40
Am I the only player out there who isn't upgrading his lvl3 to a lvl4? I like tooling my GBS up to fight like a Beastlord, so I don't usually have 35pts to spare for a lvl4 upgrade.

Not at all...then again, it costs me 410 points for a "level 4 Wizard" when it costs everyone else nearly half that much. :p

I roll with "level 1s" and I do just fine...haha!

Goldenwolf
30-08-2010, 02:31
I admit I have only played a few games in 8th, but with O&G a Level 2 with the Staff of Sneaky Stealing and the Mork Banner of Dispel Dice, I have done well enough in the magic phase.

I played a Lizzie army with 2 Slanns and a Skink Priest, and denied him virtually every big spell. He did never roll a double 6 casting though.

Against the high elves, they got off one larger spell by rolling 2 6's, but that is really the only way a big spell ever got off against me.

One of my opponents even rolled a 12 for winds of magic, and it ended up being 10 dice for me vs 11 for him. And that was the worst case scenario.

I don't know if higher level is better, but I do like the free pluses. Next time I will take a level 4 caster and see what happens. Let you know Wednesday.

Chicago Slim
31-08-2010, 11:45
Yea, I mean the amount of times my opponent has been pissed off to have 12 casting dice.... oh wait that is what you want! Especially if the enemy has less than 6 DD.

What is your point? That 1/6 times you will have paid a few measly points for no gain and this then makes it not worth while even though 5/6 you gain tremendously?

I was responding to another poster, who was playing theoryhammer with the opponent's offensive magic potential, and with the differential in terms of power dice vs. dispel dice. I felt, in that context, that it was relevant to remind that poster that offensive potential is capped at 12 dice.

rodmillard
31-08-2010, 12:12
I regularly run multiple level twos.

For my high elves I run a L2 dragonmage with silver wand (extra spell) and a L2 wizard with high magic and an annulian crystal (steal a power dice), then fill out my lord choices with combat characters. I find the racial +1 to dispel really helps to level the playing field in a way it didn't in 7th. In general I find the possible synergies from having multiple casters using different lores far outweigh the benefits from a single level 4
.
For my vampires I never leave home without at least 3 level 2s - two "battlemage" thralls (avatar of death & dark acolyte) to cast from the Lore of Vampires and my general with forbidden lore: shadow. Points allowing I add a second lord tooled for combat, which gives me access to two lores in their entirety.

itcamefromthedeep
31-08-2010, 12:49
Tomb Kings can survive without a Liche High Priest. Being able to take another scroll as an Encanted Item is very helpful in that regard.

For my High Elves I've been using Teclis. I hadn't touched him since 5th edition, so I thought it's about time I got some use from that model.

With my Greenskins it seems hard to find a reason not to bring a lvl 4 for dispelling purposes at the bargain basement price of 235 with the Staff of Sneaky Stealin'.

I can see good reasons for several armies not to bring a lvl 4 along, as noted in this thread. I can say that I don't plan on bringing a lvl4 Vampire, because I need those points to make both the fighter and the leader do their jobs.