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pick_me
25-08-2010, 21:00
Hey. I would like to possibly start an elite army. By this I don't mean that I need cheese and want to win everytime. I just would like a low model count army and is pretty durable in a fight. Because of this I think Terminators would be perect, also the fact that I love the models.

The entire army doesnt need to be termies but just help to fill a lot of the army points. I really like the Black Templars, Deamonhunters and Space Wolves the most but know nothing about their dex, or any SM dex really.

For army composition I like the idea of termies, dreads, min troop choice and then drop pods and maybe a tank or two. Could I field a decent BT army like this? Are the Templar's due for a new dex anytime?

Vedar
25-08-2010, 22:10
Well Space marines in general are an "elite" army. I would say Black templars are one of the less elite armies as most of the black templar armies I've seen spam initiates to make a pseudo space marine zerg list. The whole when they get shot they run at you to get you into assault.

As a whole the current Black templar codex is pretty dated and lower on the power curve than the newer space marine dexes. Not that you can't win or anything but costs are a bit higher and you don't get the 3++ terminators, Vulcan, Space Wolf or Space Vampire Cheese.

If you like them, the fluff or whatever go for it. If you want to win easier play space wolves or Blood angels. GW has been pretty tight lipped with new codex coming out. It might be out next year sometime but it could be longer.

Gerwulf
25-08-2010, 22:11
If you like Space Wolves, I would go that way.

Using Logan Grimnar, Wolf Guard become Troop choices. The wolf guard terminator miniatures are just awesome in my opinion.
You can get some grey hunters (another really good kit) in Rhinos as support .
Maybe a rune priest or wolf priest. Some drop pods for the terminators.
Maybe a dreadnought.
A land raider for transportation.

Stealin' Genes
25-08-2010, 22:28
One nitpick about BT:

True, they don't get 3++ Assault terminators. However, their assault terminators (or sword brethren) have Furious Charge, and the whole army can take preferred enemy.

BT Lightning Claw Terminators strike at S5, I5 the turn they charge, reroll misses and failed wound rolls, and have an awful lot of attacks. They are nasty, nasty customers.

That said, pick the army whose fluff you like best. Power levels fluctuate, so picking an army you're not excited about because the internet says its the best will eventually lead to disappointment when the next edition rolls around and you're no longer top dog. Besides, if you love your army and enjoy playing it, you'll learn faster than if your faction leaves you cold and you're just following the instructions of other players.

Also, BT are not weak. They're just not Space Wolves (but right now, nobody is. Wolves just have things a little easier in general).

pick_me
25-08-2010, 22:47
Yeah, I don't really care about winning all the time, in fact I don't like it when the army I use isn't considered a "top tier" army, I'm having that problem with my Empire in WHFB this new edition. You get all the bandwagons making you look bad and people saying you play them just because they're good.

Why don't they get a 3++ Termie?

Do they not get to use Assults Terms or are the Sword Bretheren used as Assault Terms?

JollyGoodChap
25-08-2010, 22:53
For what you're wanting I'd suggest a Ravenwing army. Similar colour scheme to the Templars so you could always pretend ;) :p

Vedar
25-08-2010, 23:22
The 3++ storm shield is new as of the 5th Ed Space Marine Codex. I'm my opinion it should only be 4++ but that is another thread. the BT codex is too old to use the new 5th Ed space marine toys.

Stealin' Genes
26-08-2010, 02:19
Yeah, I don't really care about winning all the time, in fact I don't like it when the army I use isn't considered a "top tier" army, I'm having that problem with my Empire in WHFB this new edition. You get all the bandwagons making you look bad and people saying you play them just because they're good.

Why don't they get a 3++ Termie?

Do they not get to use Assults Terms or are the Sword Bretheren used as Assault Terms?

Sword Brethren are BT's name for veterans, and if they wear terminator armor they can be given assault termie kit if you like.

And yeah, what Vedar said, only C:SM and subsequent marine books have 3++ storm shields.

Part of what I was getting at is that BT assault termies have a slightly different flavor compared to other assault termies; their furious charge, preferred enemy, and lightning claws make them good at killing hordes, something that many armies use to counter Hammernators, and they tend to rely on inflicting massive carnage before the enemy can strike back (and boy can they), rather than weathering incoming attacks and then hitting hard like hammernators do.

They're different, and reliant on getting the charge, but they can be a very nasty unit if properly used, and they're less of a nigh-stoppable steamroller like Hammernators tend to be and more of a hyper-deadly scalpel. If you're wary of bandwagon syndrome and want to play a marine list that's a little different and rarely played, BT might be for you.

feno12
26-08-2010, 02:23
Deathwing is another option for an 'elite' army, you'll always be outnumbered, outgunned and outmoved but you can pull through with tactics making any victories you tally feel amazing for the effort put in to achieve them.
Again they lack the 3++ save but they are a very fun army to play with against almost any other army, only their ageing codex puts them down.

Silent_Moebius
26-08-2010, 06:49
Wait a little bit. The new Deamonhunters seems to be pretty strong. And they are the elite of the elite.

Pawn of Decay
26-08-2010, 12:29
I'm a huge fan of Black Templars. A lot of people think they are weaker because of various things. However Black Templars if used properly have some of the strongest Marine Options out there atm. I'm very tempted to go back and re-do them myself.

As someone has mentioned, the Black Templar Terminators don't get the 3++ with the Storm Shields that the new Marine lists do. But the Furious Charge option combined with Preferred enemy, beasting out of a Land Raider... Can't get much better. I've fielded a unit similiar to that most times I used Black Templars and I've seen it rip through a Larger new SM Terminator Squad with the 3++. :) Take that many 3+ saves and you will die lol.

Also the thing that makes me love Black Templars better than any of the new SM Codex's is that you can still make some Characters with Flavour. Think of a Black Templar Chaplain with Immune to Instant Death, Terminator Armour, Terminator Honours!!! (+1 Attack, go Black Templars) then give him a Thunder Hammer or twin Lightning Claws.

There is a lot to love about Black Templars and they can be a very competitive force. Don't forget the Blessed Hulls ;)

pick_me
26-08-2010, 13:39
Hmmm.,,this is all good syuff. I'm really starting to like the sound of BT's more. I might really need to check out their dex.

@Silent_Moebius: where are you hearing what the new DH dex will be like? I really like them but kinda worried that they'll update the dex and models soon and then i'll be pissed.

Anoter thing i've been considering is making a custom chapter that does lots of space boarding actions and getting some of the MK III's off of FW to fill out min troop choice and then filling in the rest with termies and dreads. I'm just not sure what dex would be best to you for that.

marv335
26-08-2010, 13:57
Assault terminators who re-roll to hit and re-roll to wound at I5/S5 are awesome.
Possibly the nastiest teminators (on the charge) in the game.
Shove them in a LRC with a blessed hull and watch all your eldar opponents cry.

MajorWesJanson
26-08-2010, 14:09
@Silent_Moebius: where are you hearing what the new DH dex will be like? I really like them but kinda worried that they'll update the dex and models soon and then i'll be pissed.


The metal GK models are among the nicest looking marines, and should hold up well even with brand new plastics. GW also doesn't like to invalidate models they have made, so all the GK models should still be usable (of course besides NFW/Stormbolter, they only have a few options on the models right now as is.

R0ot
26-08-2010, 15:06
I play black templars and I've mixed up my lists since starting them 5 years ago, I've gone with spam marines, 20 man squads, I've done the uber command squads with deep strike tanking hunting termies, I've done the small squad/heavy weapon spam and now I am on to the LRC spam with assault termies.

Black Templars are a fantastic marine army to play and very enjoyable when you read books like Helsreach.

A note to all the people talking about 4+ Storm Shields for BT and 3+ for all other marines (bar Dark Angels I think) is that Black Templar storm shields do NOT get to use that 4+ invul from shooting attacks.

Nezalhualixtlan
26-08-2010, 15:18
I like the idea of termies, dreads, min troop choice and then drop pods and maybe a tank or two.

I'd say check out Space Wolves then.

You can field Terminators (Wolfguard Packs) as troops if you field Logan Grimnar (or a "counts as" equivalent) for HQ, and pick up a few Dreadnoughts, and Predators to go with it... and SW Terminators can not directly teleport in via Deep Strike, so if you wanted them to do that they would need to take drop pods. Wolves are a newer and thus have an updated ruleset in terms of power, and they are pretty widely recognized as a current top army. Plus, they get some pretty awesome special characters, and army wide rules. Black Templar by comparison are somewhat dated, and I've not heard any rumor rumblings of them getting an update any time soon. I don't think Black Templars have a bad ruleset, but there are some out dated frustrating things contained within it, and it wasn't written with 5th Ed in mind.

LonelyPath
26-08-2010, 18:20
Deathwing make a nice elite army, Belial is very cheap for what he does (and half the cost of Logan Grimnar, lol) and when combined wit ha couple of Ravenwing Attack Squadrons, your DW DS accurately through the teleport homers that RW bikes and attack bikes carry as standard. With Deathwing now troops, it frees up space in your Elites section for the dreadnoughts and there's nothing stopping you from taking a few tanks after that. I've actually had my DW/RW supported by a Vindicator and a couple of Predators in some games and they're lent some very useful firepower to the list (I'd like to try 3 Predators when I get hold of a 3rd one).

Black Templars are a good list and are still pretty viable, when used right they can kick serious booty.

Daemonhunters are really one of the weakest lists now, if not the weakest, but that should (hopefully) change with the new codex next year. However, the models in the Grey knights range are beautiful and everyone should have at least 40 of them ;) heheh

Setesh
26-08-2010, 18:45
I'd say Dark Angels Deathwing or wait for the Grey Knights release

Aiwass
26-08-2010, 19:05
I go for the Black Templars. This guys makes Khorne smile :)

ReveredChaplainDrake
26-08-2010, 20:42
Black Templars are essentially the new Dark Eldar in terms of power. They're that one occasionally seen army that nobody expects. They run off a bunch of older mechanics based around dated metagame concepts. This leads to most of their units being either overpriced or underpriced for what they do, or simply conferring inappropriately powerful effects. As such, both are rare but powerful finesse armies that you usually see veterans break out when they feel nostalgic and / or want to make a point.

The major difference is that, while Dark Eldar are a fragile finesse army even amongst other finesse armies, at least Dark Eldar have some worthwhile psychic defense in their Crucible of Malediction. Templars might have the grit of being a Marine behind them, but as far as psy defense goes, Templars have one vow that's mutually-exclusive with their game breaker vow (and even if it wasn't, it's useless for psychic defense; it's more of an "up yours, Sirenbomb" bonus than any sort of real advantage), so nobody takes it. They can temporarily relieve this problem with Inquisitorial allies, but the community might as well be counting the days to the new Inquisitorial codecies that invalidate this recourse.