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DarthMcBob
25-08-2010, 22:03
OK, I've been reading the Ciaphus Cain series recently, and I'm confused. In a short story, Cain shoots a human psyker that was devoted to Slaaneesh, named Emeli. Then, in Traitor's Hand, that very same Emeli comes back as a daemon. I went :wtf: at that. I mean, Chaos gods make daemon princes out of mortal champions who have served them extremely well, and only then very rarely. Even the loyalest and most accomplished usually get nothing better than death or Spawndom. Emeli's accomplishments were: failing to seduce Cain, getting shot, and making a daemonhost that was destroyed in minutes by heavy artillery. Hardly worthy of princedom. The Chaos codex specifically says that the souls of Chaos worshipers are munchies for their gods after they die. So how and why is Emeli a daemon rather than a snack? Does Slaaneesh have a policy of rewarding incompetence and failure with immortality and power or something?

mob16151
25-08-2010, 22:24
OK, I've been reading the Ciaphus Cain series recently, and I'm confused. In a short story, Cain shoots a human psyker that was devoted to Slaaneesh, named Emeli. Then, in Traitor's Hand, that very same Emeli comes back as a daemon. I went :wtf: at that. I mean, Chaos gods make daemon princes out of mortal champions who have served them extremely well, and only then very rarely. Even the loyalest and most accomplished usually get nothing better than death or Spawndom. Emeli's accomplishments were: failing to seduce Cain, getting shot, and making a daemonhost that was destroyed in minutes by heavy artillery. Hardly worthy of princedom. The Chaos codex specifically says that the souls of Chaos worshipers are munchies for their gods after they die. So how and why is Emeli a daemon rather than a snack? Does Slaaneesh have a policy of rewarding incompetence and failure with immortality and power or something?

In all fairness that was only her on screen accomplishments. She could have done a bunch of things off screen that got her rewarded with ascension.

AndrewGPaul
25-08-2010, 23:02
The gods of Chaos will reward their mortal followers with daemonhood or spawndom as they see fit. Their reasoning may not be obvious to mortal comprehension. Clearly, Emeli did something to please her god, but you're unlikely to find out what it is.

Jackmojo
25-08-2010, 23:04
Who's to say she was not a daemon when he first met her? Possessing the woman in the convent.

Jack

DarthMcBob
25-08-2010, 23:17
Who's to say she was not a daemon when he first met her? Possessing the woman in the convent.

Jack

Who's to say that she was a human? The book:


"When we first met, I took you for human."

She giggled, a grotesque parody of the flirt she used to be. "I was, silly."

Lord Malorne
26-08-2010, 09:27
OP: How do you know they are the same person?

RayvenQ
26-08-2010, 11:21
Cain makes it pretty clear that it is the same person, albeit the second time around she comes back in Daemon form.

oCoYoRoAoKo
26-08-2010, 13:03
Time means nothing to the Chaos Gods. How do we know that she wasn't made a prince because of something that she was going to do in the future?

Cy.

Mannimarco
26-08-2010, 13:46
Because turning sombody into a prince for somthing they are going to do in the future would imply that the Gods (in this case Slaanesh) can see every possible future. Just because you see one future where Emeli makes herself worthy of ascension doesnt mean that will be the one that happens.

We know from the daemons codex that even Tzeentch cant see every possible future (see Fateweavers fluff)

DarthMcBob
26-08-2010, 13:49
OP: How do you know they are the same person?

Because both she and Cain both explicitly say that she is.

Mr_Rose
26-08-2010, 14:50
Because both she and Cain both explicitly say that she is.
Cain would have to shoot himself for even attempting to know the true mind of a Daemon and, this may shock you I know, Daemons can and do lie.

mob16151
26-08-2010, 14:54
Daemons can and do lie.

Unless the truth will hurt you more.

Mr_Rose
26-08-2010, 15:01
Unless the truth will hurt you more.
Also if it amuses them or gets them what they want and so on.
E.G. Eisenhorn's nemesis/pet daemonhost thanked him the first time he tried to blow it to pieces because it knew that a) he would eventually free it from its bondage by destroying its host shell/prison and b) being thanked by a daemon in public would get him in major trouble with his bosses.
Doesn't mean they are obligated either way though.

Mannimarco
26-08-2010, 15:13
And a daemon wouldnt be very smart if it always lied or indeed it always told the truth.

Daemons are impossibly complex creatures who can and do mix their lies with the truth just for the lulz and to screw with your head.

mrln68
26-08-2010, 16:01
OK, I've been reading the Ciaphus Cain series recently, and I'm confused. In a short story, Cain shoots a human psyker that was devoted to Slaaneesh, named Emeli. Then, in Traitor's Hand, that very same Emeli comes back as a daemon

Comes down to one thing, and one thing only... The author was grasping at straws for a plot twist, and that is what they came up with. There is no basis for most of what they write - and yes, quite often it contradicts what has been revealed by GW in their own books.

mob16151
26-08-2010, 17:35
Comes down to one thing, and one thing only... The author was grasping at straws for a plot twist, and that is what they came up with. There is no basis for most of what they write - and yes, quite often it contradicts what has been revealed by GW in their own books.

Wait,so your saying no human has ever been rewarded with Daemonhood?

mrln68
26-08-2010, 18:22
No - I am saying they will toss things around which they don't really think through.

Lots of humans have become daemon princes.

mob16151
26-08-2010, 18:28
No - I am saying they will toss things around which they don't really think through.

Lots of humans have become daemon princes.

Alright I'll bite. What wasn't thought through in this novel.( I'm a fan of the Cain series BTW. ;))

DarthMcBob
26-08-2010, 18:48
Alright I'll bite. What wasn't thought through in this novel.( I'm a fan of the Cain series BTW. ;))

The fact the Emeli did absolutely nothing that even came near being worthy of the extremely rare and valuable gift of princedom. Also, Daemon Princes are made from living champions, not failed seductresses that got themselves shot.

mob16151
26-08-2010, 19:06
The fact the Emeli did absolutely nothing that even came near being worthy of the extremely rare and valuable gift of princedom. Also, Daemon Princes are made from living champions, not failed seductresses that got themselves shot.

Well I view it like this. There gods of Chaos. I have a hard time imagining they play by any particular rules.

DarthMcBob
26-08-2010, 19:32
Well I view it like this. There gods of Chaos. I have a hard time imagining they play by any particular rules.

True, but making a mortal pawn into an immortal one does take a lot of energy on their part and hence is not given out often. Only those who have greatly pleased them even have a chance. Most just die, go insane, or become Spawn.

BaronDG
26-08-2010, 20:32
That's a problem with fluff lately. It puts too much structure on chaos. We know nothing about how much energy it takes to make a daemonprince compared to a spawn or even if conserving energy is something to be bothered with.

Mr_Rose
26-08-2010, 20:50
That's a problem with fluff lately. It puts too much structure on chaos. We know nothing about how much energy it takes to make a daemonprince compared to a spawn or even if conserving energy is something to be bothered with.
The Warp has been established to be composed of an infinite quantity of energy (though it's never specified whether it's one of the larger infinities or not) so I doubt conservation is an issue.

Most of the time, elevation to Daemonhood is reserved for those who have been tested and found to have a strong enough mind to retain their will and at least some of their sanity through the transformation.
I get the impression that if the process was started on an unprepared mind, you'd just get a random lesser daemon (like how Nurgle gets new Plaguebearers) without the strong mental connection to the "real" materium that allows them to maintain a physical form almost indefinitely.

baphomael
26-08-2010, 23:48
The Warp has been established to be composed of an infinite quantity of energy (though it's never specified whether it's one of the larger infinities or not) so I doubt conservation is an issue.

Most of the time, elevation to Daemonhood is reserved for those who have been tested and found to have a strong enough mind to retain their will and at least some of their sanity through the transformation.
I get the impression that if the process was started on an unprepared mind, you'd just get a random lesser daemon (like how Nurgle gets new Plaguebearers) without the strong mental connection to the "real" materium that allows them to maintain a physical form almost indefinitely.

Actually, a good point to make. In WHFB, at least, Daemonhood is something that requires a strength of will to contain. The Chaos Gods add layer upon layer of daemonic gifts untill eventually apotheosis occurs. However, some are better suited to it than others - some might just become spawn, others last a bit longer and become Forsaken, others and badass enough to take it all and say 'keep it coming'.

Scorpius_78
26-08-2010, 23:58
Were talking about a Chaos God here, ya know the same gods who are just as likely to grant you spawndom as they are reward you.

Whos to say Slaanesh, didnít have some great plan for her in the further, see her as a devout worshiper, like the color of her hair, what have you.

At the end of the day the gods minds are their own

Makiaveli
27-08-2010, 00:38
I always thought the whole "reward" business was just propaganda. The only ones who were actually raised up were the ones whom the gods thought would be worth the investment.

As to the infinite energy/conservation argument, who's to say they have unlimited access to all that energy. That's like saying the Imperium has access to all the energy on all the planets they control. Sure they do, but they still have to mine it etc. before they can use it. Otherwise, why wouldn't the gods simply make every follower a Daemon of some type and cut them loose? Sure 99.9999999999% would die, but even with those odds that would be a lot of Daemons loose in the Imperium, right?

mob16151
27-08-2010, 00:41
I always thought the whole "reward" business was just propaganda. The only ones who were actually raised up were the ones whom the gods thought would be worth the investment.

As to the infinite energy/conservation argument, who's to say they have unlimited access to all that energy. That's like saying the Imperium has access to all the energy on all the planets they control. Sure they do, but they still have to mine it etc. before they can use it. Otherwise, why wouldn't the gods simply make every follower a Daemon of some type and cut them loose? Sure 99.9999999999% would die, but even with those odds that would be a lot of Daemons loose in the Imperium, right?

Unfortunately it wouldn't work like that.If all the gods followers was a demon, they'd lose a lot of their ability to operate in the materium.

DarthMcBob
27-08-2010, 04:12
Actually, a good point to make. In WHFB, at least, Daemonhood is something that requires a strength of will to contain. The Chaos Gods add layer upon layer of daemonic gifts untill eventually apotheosis occurs. However, some are better suited to it than others - some might just become spawn, others last a bit longer and become Forsaken, others and badass enough to take it all and say 'keep it coming'.

It's like that in 40k too, which just reinforces my point. Emeli was not some super-mutated champion on the verge of daemonhood before her death. She was a psyker with some daemonic knowledge and powers of seduction. Then she was shot, and promptly died. What about that would make Slaaneesh decide not to eat her?

HK-47
27-08-2010, 05:15
It's like that in 40k too, which just reinforces my point. Emeli was not some super-mutated champion on the verge of daemonhood before her death. She was a psyker with some daemonic knowledge and powers of seduction. Then she was shot, and promptly died. What about that would make Slaaneesh decide not to eat her?

Maybe she did something off-screen that pleased Slaanesh enough for it to turn her into a daemon.

Dakkagor
27-08-2010, 11:39
Maybe she did something off-screen that pleased Slaanesh enough for it to turn her into a daemon.

this.

Or maybe, she was kept on as a daemon to evntually corrupt Cain and therefore bring about the downfall of one of the Imperiums treasured modern heros? She's still a daemon prince, but a pawn in a larger plot to bring Cain over to the path of slaanesh. (As Emili pointed out herself, he might be a borderline case already)

Sceleris82
27-08-2010, 14:11
Honestly, its just a bad example of writing, and thats it. Like a bad sequel t a B movie.

I love it when people says, but omg its chaos gods, so nothing has to make sense, since everything makes sense without sense, so its actully an awsome story.


No, if you would have wanted to make a awsome story of the 40k unviverse, a mistress, who failed and did nothing SUPER special, should not be turned into a demon prince.

BobtheInquisitor
27-08-2010, 16:07
She did something special. She TALKED to CIAPHAS CAIN! Lucky girl! :swoons:

Seriously, I like the idea that she had already "earned her wings" off camera by the time Cain killed her. Now, what that action was that pleased Slaanesh so much, I don't know, but for some reason I keep thinking of the Mel Gibson tapes...

Novrain
27-08-2010, 17:06
She worshiped Slaanesh (God of rampant orgies, etc etc) right?

I think we can all guess what actions earned her daemonhood.... :P

Lord Damocles
27-08-2010, 17:38
What if Emeli was only elevated to a daemon princess by Slannesh in order to bring about the destruction of the Khorne forces which try to stop her?

madprophet
27-08-2010, 21:17
maybe, she was kept on as a daemon to evntually corrupt Cain and therefore bring about the downfall of one of the Imperiums treasured modern heros? She's still a daemon prince, but a pawn in a larger plot to bring Cain over to the path of slaanesh. (As Emili pointed out herself, he might be a borderline case already)

This makes sense - also, we don't know how many of the Prince(ss) of Pleasure's gifts she had. She may have had all sorts of...errr...enhancements for all we know.:evilgrin: