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View Full Version : Fun with Thorians (Hypothetically, hypothetical)



mob16151
25-08-2010, 22:09
So I have a hypothetical scenario for my fellow warseers. Picture this, its some random date in the 42 millennium. Reports of an incredibly charismatic man are circulating. The Inquisition investigates. Amongst the Inquisitors are a few Thorians. These Thorians decide that this man is the God Emperor reborn. Woot big win for the Imperium.
So here's my questions for you all. What would it take for an individual to be recognized as the Emperor reborn by any significant portion of the Inquisition? (We'll use 10 percent as our significant percentage.) And secondly what forces would throw there support behind this "Reborn Emperor". I'm guessing a chapter like the Black Templars would jump at a chance to support "Emperor".

Anyhow I thought this would be a fun hypothetical.

Londinium
25-08-2010, 22:20
You'd probably see a fractious civil war depending on various sectors, personalities and organisations. I rather disagree with you about the Black Templars. I have a feeling that they'd outright reject the newcomer as a heretic given the Big E is still sat on the Golden Throne.

Likewise most other military and political organisations in the Imperium would probably be highly suspect of such a happening. However the imposter Emperor might well gain some support in certain sections. Thorians (of course) spring to mind, also the idea of a religious cult based around the resurrection of the Emperor. The return of Christ to the mortal world features highly in Christian mythology so I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of Emperor resurrectionists within the Imperium.

Whether such a figure could gain the critical mass of support across the Imperium to have him proclaimed the Emperor reborn or successfully fight a civil war against old schoolers is for anyone to guess. The High Lords would definitely be against such a newcomer and I have a feeling the Space Marines wouldn't believe it either, especially given their rather different view to the Emperor's divinity and spirituality.

Askil the Undecided
25-08-2010, 23:13
Aren't you rather conveniently forgetting to account for the 90% of the Inquisition that isn't convinced and the virus bombs thay can have deloyed to kill this charismatic chap and the rest of the life on the planet he's standing on?

I don't think the =][= would ever allow even a true returned Emperor to take the throne it'd just be too dangerous for the Imperium (and thus humanity) to survive. They'd most likely kill anyone who made the claim just to ensure no impostor can ever seize power and doom mankind. That is after all rather what they are for.

Justicar Valius
25-08-2010, 23:23
The iluminati would secret him away and protect him thinking him to be one of the sensei, if they then decided he was the emperor reborn they would rejoice and try and take him to places so he can gain support. If they decided he isn't then he may eventually be sacrificed to try and create the emperor reborn.

mob16151
25-08-2010, 23:30
Aren't you rather conveniently forgetting to account for the 90% of the Inquisition that isn't convinced and the virus bombs thay can have deloyed to kill this charismatic chap and the rest of the life on the planet he's standing on?

I don't thing the =][= would ever allow even a true returned Emperor to take the throne it'd just be too dangerous for the Imperium (and thus humanity) to survive. They'd most likely kill anyone who made the claim just to ensure no impostor can ever seize power and doom mankind.

I don't believe that the other 90 percent would all play for the same team so to speak. I believe you'd have factions amongst them. You'd have fence sitter's, you'd have Inquisitors saying we need more data, you'd have others that would be to busy pursuing there own agenda to drop it all, and go after a reborn "Emperor", etc, etc. Thats why in my mind 10 percent is the number of inquisitors necessary to kick off a good old fashion civil war.

Askil the Undecided
26-08-2010, 02:34
I don't believe that the other 90 percent would all play for the same team so to speak. I believe you'd have factions amongst them. You'd have fence sitter's, you'd have Inquisitors saying we need more data, you'd have others that would be to busy pursuing there own agenda to drop it all, and go after a reborn "Emperor", etc, etc. Thats why in my mind 10 percent is the number of inquisitors necessary to kick off a good old fashion civil war.

All of which rapidly becomes irrelevant when it only takes one Inquisitor to petition the high lords to deploy the assassinorum or comandeer a few Warships, declare the "Reborn" a heretical impostor and destroy the ship he's on/declare exterminatus on the planet he is on.

Essentially one tenth of an organisation with agents of unlimited power is nothing astoundingly special. It's giving ten excited fourteen year olds control of as many imperial forces as they can phsically lift but then arranging them 9:1 and asking the larger side if they all really want to spend the next week fighting it out.

Put simply in a war with Inquisitors' clout securing supplies and forces it becomes purely a matter of who has the most Inquisitors and what they think to ask for.

Archaon
26-08-2010, 08:12
Not to mention the Administratum itself which would try and eliminate the "impostor".

If that indeed was the Emperor reborn (what has happened to the husk in the Golden Throne?) the people would rejoice and expect him to lead the Empire again basically shutting down the power of the Lords or at least diminishing their power.

That can't happen so Officio Assasinorum it is (amongst others i guess).

Memnos
26-08-2010, 09:12
Not to mention the Administratum itself which would try and eliminate the "impostor".

If that indeed was the Emperor reborn (what has happened to the husk in the Golden Throne?) the people would rejoice and expect him to lead the Empire again basically shutting down the power of the Lords or at least diminishing their power.

That can't happen so Officio Assasinorum it is (amongst others i guess).

When the Emperor first came in to the universe, he was besieged on all sides: Orks, evil aliens... The works.

He was smart enough and forward thinking enough to conquer and beat everyone until Horus betrayed him.

If this really is the Emperor reborn, then he does it again, because he's proven he can beat the odds just like before. If it isn't the Emperor Reborn and is just some Chaos dude, then chaos(Little C) ensues until eventually he dies.

My thought, as an Inquisitor, would be to fight him as a Chaos traitor simply because if he isn't, then I'm doomed to fail anyway.

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-08-2010, 10:14
When the Emperor first came in to the universe, he was besieged on all sides: Orks, evil aliens... The works.

Of course, He also didn't have the Imperium to face off against, or any truly united foe. I heard of a book (of fiction) where the Messiah was killed several times by the Catholic church to maintain their power. Perhaps this would work on the same principle. Perhaps it has already happened.

Memnos
26-08-2010, 10:48
Of course, He also didn't have the Imperium to face off against, or any truly united foe. I heard of a book (of fiction) where the Messiah was killed several times by the Catholic church to maintain their power. Perhaps this would work on the same principle. Perhaps it has already happened.

The Imperium isn't a truly united foe.

Look at Goge Vandire, for instance. He was brought low by a single pious woman and he had all the forces of the Imperium to bring to the fore.

The Inquisition and the Administratum, as powerful as they are, would not stand against the Emperor reborn because the Emperor reborn is the most intelligent, cunning, powerful being in the universe.

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-08-2010, 11:10
Fine, fine. But more united than any of the factions at the time were- i.e. the factions the Emperor had to overcome. In the days before the Great Crusade began, Orks were riven, as always, by internal strife. Eldar had just suffered the Fall. Necrons were asleep. Tau weren't even a glimmer in some prehistoric cow's eye. Tyranids were munching on another galaxy, and any precursor Hive Fleets re: Catachan Devils, Fenris Kraken, etc. were already settled. Chaos was a bunch of cults among the races with no true unity. Humanity was in the Age of Strife...

None of these had the galaxy-spanning resources the Imperium has, however fragile its cohesiveness is. It could be that even a reborn Emperor can't quite overcome it.

The Imperium consists of a million worlds, united by faith in the Emperor (ironic in this thread's topic) or a treaty between the Omnissiah Incarnate and Mars and her Forge worlds. Uncounted trillions of Imperial Guard fight or are ready to fight on any world in its boundaries and willing to try for those outside. The Inquisition, while not omniscient, has its uncounted fingers on the pulse of the Imperium. Imperial Commanders often rule their worlds with fists of iron (as befits the most brutal regime imaginable). There are any number of forces that could conceivably wreak hell on any plan the Emperor could have, despite His great wisdom. It could be that the Dark Gods conspire to block His sight for this very reason.

And Goge Vandire was killed by one woman but his regime was brought low by the rise of the Imperium's most famous Saint and a possible vessel of the Emperor- Sebastian Thor- and his followers, several Space Marine Chapters, the destruction of one of his greatest warfleets by the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, and many other factors. His own grip over the Imperium was weakened by inevitable public outcry.

Memnos
26-08-2010, 12:31
Uncounted trillions of Imperial Guard fight or are ready to fight on any world in its boundaries and willing to try for those outside. The Inquisition, while not omniscient, has its uncounted fingers on the pulse of the Imperium. Imperial Commanders often rule their worlds with fists of iron (as befits the most brutal regime imaginable). There are any number of forces that could conceivably wreak hell on any plan the Emperor could have, despite His great wisdom. It could be that the Dark Gods conspire to block His sight for this very reason.

And Goge Vandire was killed by one woman but his regime was brought low by the rise of the Imperium's most famous Saint and a possible vessel of the Emperor- Sebastian Thor- and his followers, several Space Marine Chapters, the destruction of one of his greatest warfleets by the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, and many other factors. His own grip over the Imperium was weakened by inevitable public outcry.


I think this is exactly why the outcome isn't predetermined to the Emperor losing. Historically, Sebastian Thor was able to create a massive outcry that shook the foundations of the Empire. Assuming he wasn't the Emperor, then you have a single charismatic man changing the face of the Empire forever. In that case, the Emperor would be much brighter and more powerful than Thor and more charismatic, too. Dangerous times.

Of course, if he was Sebastian Thor, then he tried and failed. ;)

Gorbad Ironclaw
26-08-2010, 14:43
I think this is exactly why the outcome isn't predetermined to the Emperor losing. Historically, Sebastian Thor was able to create a massive outcry that shook the foundations of the Empire.

He did have quite a lot of help from very sizeable portions of the Imperial armed forces, it's not like Thor did it by himself. He was certainly important and a public figure head but I think it unlikely that he could have prevailed without lots and lots of allies.
So basically it comes down to how quickly any given "newborn emperor" is able to move and how much support he can gather before he get's attacked.
also, crucially, Thor did not claim he was the Emperor reborn, something I think would further complicate the issue of gaining allies.

RunepriestRidcully
26-08-2010, 17:42
But the true Emperor would not say it, he would wait in the shadows like he did before the unification wars.

Askil the Undecided
26-08-2010, 17:54
But the true Emperor would not say it, he would wait in the shadows like he did before the unification wars.

Exactly. The Emperor would, for a quick example definately not claim to be the Emperor for a start, as that is a stupid move that would cause a civil war the Imperium cannot afford.

mob16151
26-08-2010, 18:25
Notice in the OP that, I never say that this person declares himself emperor, it is done for him. I felt the urge to clarify this.

Memnos
27-08-2010, 09:38
Notice in the OP that, I never say that this person declares himself emperor, it is done for him. I felt the urge to clarify this.

Actually, I could see one of Fabius Bile's creations turning on him like Frankenstein's Monster and being mistaken for the Emperor.

He wanted to create the Next Man: Many times smarter, faster, stronger and more courageous. What if he succeeded?

"Yes! Yes! I have succeeded in creating the Next Man. Now, let us go forth and conquer in the name of Chaos!"

"Wait... Wait... You made me a lot smarter than you. You know what I'm smart enough to see? Turning to Chaos means I will probably turn in to power armour filled with jelly. Also, you made me better than you. You know what ELSE I'm better than you at? Understanding morality and why it's important."

"If you turn against me, the whole Imperium will hunt you down."

"You also made me more courageous than you."


Chaos often finds ways to sneak in to people through hope. I could see Tzeentch 'helping' Fabius' Bile's creation become everything Fabius Bile dreamt of and more, then convincing people he's the Emperor Reborn.

I also like the idea because it would be a real tragedy: This single, genuinely good person who is hated throughout the Imperium and still tries to do right despite being doomed. Plus, it would mean Tzeentch's plan would screw over Fabius Bile, his Creation, the Imperium, his fellow Chaos Deities that fell to the Creation's crusade... Pretty much everyone.

Askil the Undecided
27-08-2010, 16:51
Actually, I could see one of Fabius Bile's creations turning on him like Frankenstein's Monster and being mistaken for the Emperor.

He wanted to create the Next Man: Many times smarter, faster, stronger and more courageous. What if he succeeded?

"Yes! Yes! I have succeeded in creating the Next Man. Now, let us go forth and conquer in the name of Chaos!"

"Wait... Wait... You made me a lot smarter than you. You know what I'm smart enough to see? Turning to Chaos means I will probably turn in to power armour filled with jelly. Also, you made me better than you. You know what ELSE I'm better than you at? Understanding morality and why it's important."

"If you turn against me, the whole Imperium will hunt you down."

"You also made me more courageous than you."


Chaos often finds ways to sneak in to people through hope. I could see Tzeentch 'helping' Fabius' Bile's creation become everything Fabius Bile dreamt of and more, then convincing people he's the Emperor Reborn.

I also like the idea because it would be a real tragedy: This single, genuinely good person who is hated throughout the Imperium and still tries to do right despite being doomed. Plus, it would mean Tzeentch's plan would screw over Fabius Bile, his Creation, the Imperium, his fellow Chaos Deities that fell to the Creation's crusade... Pretty much everyone.

I like it, i don't fully understand it, much less agree with it (being that Next man is designed to be a sleeper agent sent among imperials bound to the cause of Chaos and when triggered superhumanly powerful and psychopathically violent) but I like it alot.

Balgora
27-08-2010, 17:38
I don't think the =][= would ever allow even a true returned Emperor to take the throne it'd just be too dangerous for the Imperium (and thus humanity) to survive. They'd most likely kill anyone who made the claim just to ensure no impostor can ever seize power and doom mankind. That is after all rather what they are for.

That wouldn't actually make for a half bad story.
That or it actually is the real emperor who is horrified to see what his empire has become while he has been dealing with bigger issues on the golden throne.
Being the emperor he immediately bluntly goes about trying to fix everything and is betrayed by the imperium he created who both do not trust him and do not want him to break the current system to try and create a new better one.
Once they kill their own emperor as an imposter they seal their own fate, they lose the guidance and protection from the warp he gave, and also break the faith of the masses at a time when they need it most to fight back the darkness.

Then the grimdark can be turned up by OVER 9000!!!!

But then at the last second!!! Gandalf the Whi...the Emperor is reborn again and sacrifices himself...again, thus creating warhammer 50k which is essentially the same but with slightly more expensive minis :P

DantesInferno
28-08-2010, 11:19
Aren't you rather conveniently forgetting to account for the 90% of the Inquisition that isn't convinced and the virus bombs thay can have deloyed to kill this charismatic chap and the rest of the life on the planet he's standing on?

I don't think the =][= would ever allow even a true returned Emperor to take the throne it'd just be too dangerous for the Imperium (and thus humanity) to survive. They'd most likely kill anyone who made the claim just to ensure no impostor can ever seize power and doom mankind. That is after all rather what they are for.


That wouldn't actually make for a half bad story.

So good, in fact, that Dostoyevsky could write it...

See the chapter titled <The Grand Inquisitor> (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/grand.htm) in the novel The Brothers Karamazov.

GW's undoubtedly aware of the connection because they named their special character Witch Hunter Inquisitor after this: Inquisitor Lord Fyodor Karamazov. Famous for torturing and executing a famously pious, eloquent and humble young preacher in whom the Thorians were interested as a potential vessel of the Emperor's spirit. Sound familiar?

Balgora
28-08-2010, 11:29
thankyou for posting, i thought another of my terrible jokes/posts had killed an interesting thread again!!

I'd like to be able to read that link and comment but damn is it long and wordy :/ general gist being "it's been done before and it wasn't half bad then either" i think :)

Brother Siccarius
28-08-2010, 11:55
Of course, He also didn't have the Imperium to face off against, or any truly united foe. I heard of a book (of fiction) where the Messiah was killed several times by the Catholic church to maintain their power. Perhaps this would work on the same principle. Perhaps it has already happened.

He had a massive Ork Waagh the size of which hasn't been seen since, also the hrud and a couple other noted major battles in the beginning of the crusade.

Though, the death of any "Emperor" would only be seen as a sign that he isn't the Emperor. This is the guy who crushed armies and who's followers were able to stop entire sector battlefleets (IE. Thor). Aside from his Achilles Windpipe is/was pretty powerful.

DantesInferno
28-08-2010, 12:40
thankyou for posting, i thought another of my terrible jokes/posts had killed an interesting thread again!!

I'd like to be able to read that link and comment but damn is it long and wordy :/ general gist being "it's been done before and it wasn't half bad then either" i think :)

Sort of: Dostoyevsky was a 19th century Russian author (and is considered to be one of the greats of world literature).

The Grand Inquisitor obviously isn't set within the 40k universe (Dostoyevsky predates GW by a century), but it's definitely one of the sources from which GW drew inspiration when they were developing the background on the 40k Inquisition.

Balgora
28-08-2010, 13:15
I read enough of your link to realise it wasn't 40k related :P i was kinda going for the theme of "every story has been done before" clichéness.