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View Full Version : Why does Dark Elves Assassin have ASF & Hatred? *Confused*



elvinltl
26-08-2010, 07:18
Can anyone explain why Dark Elves Assassin have ASF and Hatred rule?

DE Assassins have Initative 10 (Highest in Game). According to ASF, if a unit with ASF had same or higher initiative, they will get to re-roll hits in closecombat. (Similiar to Hatred)

And since Initative 10 is the highest in game, they will ALWAYS get to re-roll hits in closecombat because ASF rule for re-rolling hits also works if the model has the same initiative. (Can't go beyond 10? lol)

So why is the hatred printed there for? lol :P

And does the re-rolling hits work for every subsequent combat? (Eternal hatred, as long as their initiative remainds higher)

And does it mean my lighter cousins (High Elves) suddenly becomes generally more powerful in closecombat than my Dark Elves because of the new stupid buffed up ASF that is a racial rule for High Elves? T.T

enigma-96
26-08-2010, 07:20
ASF in 7th didn't give a re-roll it just let you attack first, hatred did what it does now.

As to ASF for the HE,.... yeah unfortunately their "Hatred" is much better than your actual hatred. In most cases the HE will reroll their attacks in EVERY round as ASF works eternally while hatred is still only first round.

Nocculum
26-08-2010, 07:21
Edition transition.

Alot of rules changed, alot of units went up or down in power, alot of loopholes appeared.

Short of reprinting all army books at once, this will happen.

Also, it means they have re-roll perma, since if their ASF is negated, they will still have Hatred.

Ratbeast
26-08-2010, 07:26
Hatred was a rule across the board for the entire dark elf list, thus why they got it, as for ASF it never use to be as good as it is now, and is in need of serious reworking, as an army wide rule for high elves

Pacorko
26-08-2010, 07:30
Which is only fitting... only an idiot assassin will not hit his mark.

In game terms, an assasin will most likely hit. Call it element of surprise, well aimed blow, backstabbing, unexpected attack, jack-in-a-box... whaddevva. The assassin will almost always land a blow, as he gets two chances to re-roll. Quite fluffy, if you ask me.

Whether he/she wounds is another story.

elvinltl
26-08-2010, 07:32
Short of reprinting all army books at once, this will happen.


I am even more confused... By the time they reprint all the existing WHFB Army Books, 9th Edition will be out. I mean this has been GWS style all along.... no??? lolz

And I think, they cannot simply just reprint all the Codexes. They need to revise all the codexes and this requires time.

Crovax20
26-08-2010, 07:41
Hmm so does a dark elf assasin get to reroll his hits twice? Once for ASF and once for hatred? :cheese:

elvinltl
26-08-2010, 07:45
Hmm so does a dark elf assasin get to reroll his hits twice? Once for ASF and once for hatred? :cheese:

Dunno, they might come up with the 9th edition in a year to indicate that you can re-roll more than once.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
26-08-2010, 07:46
The short answer to this is: NO!!!

Lijacote
26-08-2010, 07:51
he gets two chances to re-roll.

What? I don't even.

sulla
26-08-2010, 08:07
Also, it means they have re-roll perma, since if their ASF is negated, they will still have Hatred.

:D Quasi-permanent, since he is unlikely to survive to a second cc phase anyway.

Gotta feel sorry for the poor HE shadow warriors though. Presumably some of that ridiculous price they pay is for the now worthless hatred vs everybody they have to go with their ASF.

Badger[Fr]
26-08-2010, 10:07
The issue is, weren't it for the re-rolls it grants, ASF would be next to pointless on high Initiative models. Well, at least it makes my Skaven Assassin playable...

stainawarjar
26-08-2010, 10:14
Hatred will help the assassin against a Wood Elf character with the strikes last amulet, or a Nurgle Herald with Noxious vapors.

Lord Malorne
26-08-2010, 10:33
I am even more confused... By the time they reprint all the existing WHFB Army Books, 9th Edition will be out. I mean this has been GWS style all along.... no??? lolz

And I think, they cannot simply just reprint all the Codexes. They need to revise all the codexes and this requires time.

Hatred is an armywide rule for Dark Elves, why should they not give the model with ASF this armywide rule.

Think about it... please.

stainawarjar
26-08-2010, 10:38
Hatred is an armywide rule for Dark Elves, why should they not give the model with ASF this armywide rule.

Think about it... please.

Yeah, they even gave Bull Charge to Ogre Hunters... Now THAT is a useless rule.

Sparowl
26-08-2010, 10:43
DE were written for 7th. That's about all that needs to be said.

T10
26-08-2010, 10:47
Can anyone explain why Dark Elves Assassin have ASF and Hatred rule?


The designers left that in just for you?

They have Always Strike First because they are trained to be so quick they always strike first in close combat. And they have Hatred because they, like all Dark Elves hate everybody.

Oh, and just because ASF and Hatred overlap somewhat it doesn't mean they are the same rule.

-T10

Leogun_91
26-08-2010, 10:59
So why is the hatred printed there for? lol :PARGH!!! (sorry I have Hatred, People who say/write lol)....I will however still answer your question.

1) The book was made in the last edition where ASF did not work like that.

2) All darkelfs have hatred so it would need a note saying that it doesn't follow the armywide special rule otherwise.

3) ASF can be cancelled, if it is the assasin still has hatred.

4) It is also there for completeness, if assasins where the only darkelfs without hatred something would seem amiss.

jamano
26-08-2010, 14:21
Also there are spells that lower initiative(maybe just one but I know theres that at least) so if you had it lowered enough to be less IN than the guy you're fighting, youd still get hatred. Also as far as ASF being better now, don't forget that your whole army has good initiative, so it'll be striking first most of the time.

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 15:41
Also there are spells that lower initiative(maybe just one but I know theres that at least) so if you had it lowered enough to be less IN than the guy you're fighting, youd still get hatred. Also as far as ASF being better now, don't forget that your whole army has good initiative, so it'll be striking first most of the time.

I was going to say this...

But yeah, there are items that lower the Initiative of those in base contact, spells that lower Initiative, etc. For example, if you're in close combat with a character with I9 and he has an item that lowers your Initiative by 2, you now have ASF I8 and you won't reroll misses to hit, but due to Hatred, you will anyway.

a18no
26-08-2010, 15:48
Black guard have Martial prowess that allow re-roll each turn, and they also gave them hatred... All in the 7th edition minding.

So don't try to find loop hole, you'll find many!

Vashta
26-08-2010, 16:32
For the same reason Ogre Hunters have Bull charge.

BluePojo
26-08-2010, 18:21
What about ASF vs. ASF? The one with hatred would reroll, the one without would not, correct?

DaemonReign
26-08-2010, 18:43
Which is only fitting... only an idiot assassin will not hit his mark.

In game terms, an assasin will most likely hit. Call it element of surprise, well aimed blow, backstabbing, unexpected attack, jack-in-a-box... whaddevva. The assassin will almost always land a blow, as he gets two chances to re-roll. Quite fluffy, if you ask me.

Whether he/she wounds is another story.

Yes it is fluffy but he does NOT get two re-rolls (this is Errata'd somewhere: You never re-roll a re-roll!!).

Still, just like the Keeper of Secrets the DE assassin will always re-roll missed hits.

DaemonReign
26-08-2010, 18:45
What about ASF vs. ASF? The one with hatred would reroll, the one without would not, correct?

Correct. So that's one instance where the Keeper would not re-roll. Man those core-percentage hidden super killy characters that DE has are well balanced!!

UberBeast
26-08-2010, 18:53
DE assassins= nerf.

a18no
26-08-2010, 19:18
What about ASF vs. ASF? The one with hatred would reroll, the one without would not, correct?

Effectively, you got exactly the point.

High elf VS high elf are a little screwed!

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 19:43
I hate DE, but I'm glad the Assassins atleast don't take up Hero spots like they used to. With magic being a necessity for DE, it kind of made Assassins hard to fit in.

a18no
26-08-2010, 20:40
I hate DE, but I'm glad the Assassins atleast don't take up Hero spots like they used to. With magic being a necessity for DE, it kind of made Assassins hard to fit in.

They ARE hard to include. A 2 wounds guy with no protection at 151 pts, in 8th edition with stepping up and 2-5 ranks that fight... Same as 20 warriors full cmdt... Or the stars one that don't blow chariot or war altar anymore??

I love assassin, but i'm sad that it wil never be in my list again (maybe the stars one.. but not that much)

DarkstarSabre
26-08-2010, 20:40
Hmm so does a dark elf assasin get to reroll his hits twice? Once for ASF and once for hatred? :cheese:

No. But it does mean you will get your reroll against Keepers of Secrets, Skaven Assassins, other DE Assassins and characters with the cheap I10 sword.

Lazarian
26-08-2010, 20:43
having the same initiative and ASF allows you to reroll misses still so high elf vs high elf means both sides would reroll their misses with equivalent troops

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 20:51
having the same initiative and ASF allows you to reroll misses still so high elf vs high elf means both sides would reroll their misses with equivalent troops

Yeah, it doesn't cancel each other out. Both strike in Initiative order and reroll misses to hit.

DarkstarSabre
26-08-2010, 20:53
Yeah, it doesn't cancel each other out. Both strike in Initiative order and reroll misses to hit.

My bad.

That's even more silly broken than I had thought.

Good god.

Wait! Wait! I got it!

Protection against the one thing in the game that neuters ASF!

That Nurgle daemon gift!

Lord Inquisitor
26-08-2010, 21:01
Am I missing something here? "If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-roll normally granted by this rule."

I remember thinking this was odd (it'd make so much more sense if two models are fighting with ASF then it cancels out and reverts to normal initiative).

So if the assassin (or keeper of secrets) is fighting any model with ASF, he loses the re-rolls from ASF and indeed strikes simultaneously, even if it's with Initiative 1 zombies under the ASF influence of a corpse cart. Then the hatred might become useful. Likewise there are things like the daemonic gift Noxious Vapours that can strip away ASF and make hatred meaningful.

Also please note that ASF grants re-rolls against opponents with EQUAL or lower initiative - this is a very common mistake (I made it too until it was pointed out to me, not sure why, the text is clear). So an Assassin gets the ASF re-rolls against any opponent even also with I10.

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 21:05
Am I missing something here? "If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-roll normally granted by this rule."

I remember thinking this was odd (it'd make so much more sense if two models are fighting with ASF then it cancels out and reverts to normal initiative).

So if the assassin (or keeper of secrets) is fighting any model with ASF, he loses the re-rolls from ASF and indeed strikes simultaneously, even if it's with Initiative 1 zombies under the ASF influence of a corpse cart. Then the hatred might become useful. Likewise there are things like the daemonic gift Noxious Vapours that can strip away ASF and make hatred meaningful.

Also please note that ASF grants re-rolls against opponents with EQUAL initiative - this is a very common mistake (I made it too until it was pointed out to me, not sure why, the text is clear). So an Assassin gets the ASF re-rolls against any opponent even also with I10.

Oops, my bad. This would've been nice to know when playing my first Daemon game in 8th against a DE player... man, I need to read more.

Zoolander
27-08-2010, 00:16
Hmm so does a dark elf assasin get to reroll his hits twice? Once for ASF and once for hatred? :cheese:

NO!! You can only ever reroll a die ONE time. Also, Inquisitor has it right.

Walls
27-08-2010, 00:27
Look at it this way. Against High Elves they still get to reroll.

Voss
27-08-2010, 00:34
Look at it this way. Against High Elves they still get to reroll.

Or other people who can manage to get ASF and a high initiative. Which is to say any army with access to the right item and the lore of light.

stashman
27-08-2010, 01:28
Well if an opponent is a Skaven Assassin with Gold Sigil Sword, then both strike at the same time, but DE Assassin will get reroll to hit in first round becuse of Hatred.

Lord Inquisitor
27-08-2010, 01:53
Guys, all you need is ASF. Initiative doesn't come into it. If you have ASF and initiative 1, you cancel out the re-rolls and strike simultaneously. The I10 sword doesn't do anything against the assassin!

No, I don't know why ASF I10 isn't faster than ASF I1, seems weird to me, but the rules are clear.

I'm foreseeing a lot of trouble in this area in this edition. ;)

Argent
27-08-2010, 02:04
Surprisingly enough, I can give you four circumstances in which you will lose Always Strikes First's reroll to hits.


The Assassin is in combat with a Wood Elf unit that wisely (or unwisely?) took the magic pendant that changes Always Strikes First into Always Strikes Last.
The Assassin is in combat with a unit that is benefiting from the Lore of Light spell, Speed of Light.
The Assassin's unit has been afflicted by the Lore of Shadow's signature spell, taking a D3 penalty to Initiative (this would be surprisingly common against High Elves wishing to keep their Always Strikes First rerolls).
The Assassin is fighting another Dark Elf army, who is also using an Assassin.


All in all, its along the same lines as "Why do the Shadow Warriors still play for Hatred when they Always Strike First now?" Edition changes.

Tzeentch Loyalist
27-08-2010, 02:14
I'm pretty sure that against High elves, dark elves always re-roll hits against them. so if the re-roll you get from always strikes first + higher inititive is lost by the high elves, the dark elves still get the re-rolls every round because of their Eternal Hatred rule (page 43 of the dark elves book).

Argent
27-08-2010, 02:22
I'm pretty sure that against High elves, dark elves always re-roll hits against them. so if the re-roll you get from always strikes first + higher inititive is lost by the high elves, the dark elves still get the re-rolls every round because of their Eternal Hatred rule (page 43 of the dark elves book).

That's the point. That's one of the scenarios that an Assassin having Hatred actually matters. Their rule states that Dark Elves hate High Elves on every round of combat, instead of just on the first round (normal Hatred only applies on the first round of combat).

DaemonReign
27-08-2010, 02:31
Yeah, it doesn't cancel each other out. Both strike in Initiative order and reroll misses to hit.

My understanding of ASF vs ASF in 8th Edition is that "both sides strike at the same time - meaning all attacks are resolved from each side before casualties are removed.

ASF vs ASF completely cancels out Initiative.

ASF does not re-roll hits against ASF-targets.

That's why having Hatred on top of ASF is really neat for the Assassin.

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 02:40
My understanding of ASF vs ASF in 8th Edition is that "both sides strike at the same time - meaning all attacks are resolved from each side before casualties are removed.

ASF vs ASF completely cancels out Initiative.

ASF does not re-roll hits against ASF-targets.

That's why having Hatred on top of ASF is really neat for the Assassin.

Yeah, you must've missed the post where I found this out. It's all good, though.

Pacorko
27-08-2010, 04:21
Yes it is fluffy but he does NOT get two re-rolls (this is Errata'd somewhere: You never re-roll a re-roll!!).

Still, just like the Keeper of Secrets the DE assassin will always re-roll missed hits.

Oi! Maybe I meant two chance to strike, I dunno. It was late, I've had a horrible working week, and when I reread it I went :wtf: and almost slapped me in the back of the head.

Yep: No re-re-roll. Old as the sky, that rule.

Sorry about that.

Lord Inquisitor
27-08-2010, 04:25
Yeah, you must've missed the post where I found this out. It's all good, though.

Welcome to warseer where if you're wrong, five people will point it out ;)

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 04:28
Welcome to warseer where if you're wrong, five people will point it out ;)

Haha, yeah I always love it.

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 16:27
Welcome to warseer where if you're wrong, five people will point it out ;)

Another prime example. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273480)

Aluinn
27-08-2010, 16:55
Surprisingly enough, I can give you four circumstances in which you will lose Always Strikes First's reroll to hits.


The Assassin is in combat with a Wood Elf unit that wisely (or unwisely?) took the magic pendant that changes Always Strikes First into Always Strikes Last.
The Assassin is in combat with a unit that is benefiting from the Lore of Light spell, Speed of Light.
The Assassin's unit has been afflicted by the Lore of Shadow's signature spell, taking a D3 penalty to Initiative (this would be surprisingly common against High Elves wishing to keep their Always Strikes First rerolls).
The Assassin is fighting another Dark Elf army, who is also using an Assassin.


Or he's in combat with a VC character wearing Nightshroud :).

Anyway, on the issue of HE getting re-rolls in more situations (which is true, though occasionally Hatred will be preferable), it should not be forgotten that they cost more points, with equivalent stats and equipment, than DE (i.e. Spearmen). Not a lot more, but still probably enough to warrant the increased frequency with which they get re-rolls to hit.

elvinltl
03-09-2010, 04:07
I think I'll put my Dark Elves army in stasis till they revise the Codex. (Which I think will take years....)

Lord of Divine Slaughter
03-09-2010, 09:25
I think I'll put my Dark Elves army in stasis till they revise the Codex. (Which I think will take years....)

Yup, they'll probably get an army book before that though ;)