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DarthMcBob
26-08-2010, 18:20
Erebus is the Word Bearers chaplain who originally fell to Chaos and eventually convinced Lorgar to join. Later, he played a key role in the fall of Warmaster Horus. Basically, the entire Horus Heresy is his fault, yet 10,000 years later in the Word Bearers book series, he is still human. What gives? A lot of losers have been rewarded with daemonhood for doing way less than he did.

Son of Sanguinius
26-08-2010, 18:25
Erebus is the Word Bearers chaplain who originally fell to Chaos and eventually convinced Lorgar to join. Later, he played a key role in the fall of Warmaster Horus. Basically, the entire Horus Heresy is his fault, yet 10,000 years later in the Word Bearers book series, he is still human. What gives? A lot of losers have been rewarded with daemonhood for doing way less than he did.

I think for the same reason that warriors like Kharn, Lucius, Ahriman, Typhus, and Abaddon haven't- you get to roam farther.

Being a Demon Prince in the material realm requires a large focus of warp energy, usually from a nearby storm or group of potent psykers. This restricts where you can go and forces you to lay down ground work for any area unprepared for your arrival (usually sending agents head to work up rebellion or create sacrifices). Erebus, by dint of being mortal, can simply go where he wishes. As a true disciple of the Chaos Gods, he could rationalize that, as a mortal, he can do far more to further the aims of his patrons.

DarthMcBob
26-08-2010, 18:49
I think for the same reason that warriors like Kharn, Lucius, Ahriman, Typhus, and Abaddon haven't- you get to roam farther.

Being a Demon Prince in the material realm requires a large focus of warp energy, usually from a nearby storm or group of potent psykers. This restricts where you can go and forces you to lay down ground work for any area unprepared for your arrival (usually sending agents head to work up rebellion or create sacrifices). Erebus, by dint of being mortal, can simply go where he wishes. As a true disciple of the Chaos Gods, he could rationalize that, as a mortal, he can do far more to further the aims of his patrons.

But all he does is sit on Sicarus with the Dark Council and help run the Word Bearers legion. Nothing he couldn't do as a Daemon Prince. Besides, wouldn't he want to emulate his daemon prince primarch?

Son of Sanguinius
26-08-2010, 18:59
But all he does is sit on Sicarus with the Dark Council and help run the Word Bearers legion.

Do we know this? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I've never heard this before.


Nothing he couldn't do as a Daemon Prince. Besides, wouldn't he want to emulate his daemon prince primarch?

Not necessarily. Devotion can be shown in all manner of ways, including that one.

There is also the idea of a bargain. With Abaddon, there is an implication that he will assume demonhood once Terra lies in ruins (which has led many to incorrectly assume that all of his Black Crusades have that goal and are failures). Perhaps Erebus has some type of similar goal in mind, like he will be ready to collect his prize once his task is done.

DarthMcBob
26-08-2010, 19:08
Do we know this? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I've never heard this before.

That's all we ever see him doing, and there are no references that I can find of him leaving the planet or anything. Even in a big investigation of heresy within the Legion itself, he used lackeys while he stayed home.


Not necessarily. Devotion can be shown in all manner of ways, including that one.

True, but what reason would he have not to want to be an immortal champion fighting beside the gods and primarch he so adores for all eternity?


There is also the idea of a bargain. With Abaddon, there is an implication that he will assume demonhood once Terra lies in ruins (which has led many to incorrectly assume that all of his Black Crusades have that goal and are failures). Perhaps Erebus has some type of similar goal in mind, like he will be ready to collect his prize once his task is done.

Abaddon is busy actually doing stuff and personally participating in the fighting in the material realm. Erebus, on the other hand, stays behind on the daemon world Sicarus and directs the Word Bearers Legion in the fight. Even when they have a potentially war-altering weapon (the Nexus Arrangement) and he suspects heresy among many of the warriors, he still doesn't deign to go himself.

N0-1_H3r3
26-08-2010, 19:40
The main thing to consider - and this goes as much for Abaddon as for Erebus - is that daemonhood often brings with it a change of focus. Mortals see the universe in a particular way, while daemons (even daemons who were once mortal) tend to see it another, unbound by the constraints of time and space. What matters to a mortal may be inconsequential to a creature of the warp.

For those champions of chaos who have specific plans specific goals, daemonhood carries a risk that those things will seem unimportant after ascension.

For Erebus, who spends much of his time embroiled in politics, ascension to daemonhood puts his place in all of that at risk, in turn potentially causing a serious shift in the balance of power between various factions and individuals. He likely doesn't want that, for whatever reason.

Beyond all that, the Chaos Gods are capricious and unpredictable in the rewards they grant. None can entirely predict who will be granted daemonhood or who will descend to spawndom, and the minds of mortals are ill-equipped to comprehend the reasons why the Chaos Gods choose to elevate some, condemn others and largely ignore the rest.

ashendant
26-08-2010, 19:58
Well in greek mythology Erebus is a god of darkness born from Chaos the primordial god
If this is any hint to what happens in warhammer 40k i do not know

bp.
26-08-2010, 20:12
The main thing to consider - and this goes as much for Abaddon as for Erebus - is that daemonhood often brings with it a change of focus. Mortals see the universe in a particular way, while daemons (even daemons who were once mortal) tend to see it another, unbound by the constraints of time and space. What matters to a mortal may be inconsequential to a creature of the warp.

For those champions of chaos who have specific plans specific goals, daemonhood carries a risk that those things will seem unimportant after ascension.

For Erebus, who spends much of his time embroiled in politics, ascension to daemonhood puts his place in all of that at risk, in turn potentially causing a serious shift in the balance of power between various factions and individuals. He likely doesn't want that, for whatever reason.

Beyond all that, the Chaos Gods are capricious and unpredictable in the rewards they grant. None can entirely predict who will be granted daemonhood or who will descend to spawndom, and the minds of mortals are ill-equipped to comprehend the reasons why the Chaos Gods choose to elevate some, condemn others and largely ignore the rest.
Spot on. :)

totgeboren
26-08-2010, 20:26
I also agree with N0-1_H3r3 statement.
I would also like to add that it appears almost as if Erebus has a position of "First among equals" on the Dark Council, meaning he could be considered the most powerful (maybe second to Kor Phaeron) individual in the Word Bearer legion.

I would assume Lorgar himself commanded Erebus to see to the spiritual welfare of the Legion whilst he retreated to the Templum Inficio. (And I base that on absolutely nothing.)

I think that by ascending to daemonhood, he would in effect cease to be able to make appropriate decisions on the everyday running of the legion, since being a daemon carries with it a quite altered perspective of reality.

Lupe
26-08-2010, 20:28
But all he does is sit on Sicarus with the Dark Council and help run the Word Bearers legion. Nothing he couldn't do as a Daemon Prince. Besides, wouldn't he want to emulate his daemon prince primarch?

Actually, I find this point quite interesting, so I'm going to try and come up with a fluffy explanation.

There is probably nothing that Erebus would like more than to become a Daemon Prince. But from ancient times, he's seen himself as rather the missionary. Even before Lorgar brought him into the ranks of the blessed Seventeenth legion, he knew that his purpose was to spread the faith. He was young, and foolish then, but his devotion was strong. He could have enjoyed a life of luxury; so many opportunities had been open to him, in those days. Yet, he was strong willed and devoted, and chose a life of sacrifice in the name of a greater ideal. When he was chosen, along with his whole generation - the finest that Colchis could offer - to serve the Golden One, he instinctively knew that was his calling. Little did he know then that the False Emperor was playing them for fools. But his devotion was rewarded nonetheless, and the True Powers revealed the truth, first to the primarch, and, through him, to the rest of the faithful.

Over time, they grew strong, and many other joined their cause. And, when finally they were strong enough, they acted. The False Emperor met his end, but the weakness of their allies cost them the ultimate victory.

Since then, for a hundred centuries,the Word Bearers have been struggling for a second chance, with Kor Phaeron and Erebus at the forefront of the Legion. None are more deserving than them of the attention of the Chaos Gods. None, more deserving of Daemonic Ascension. But time and time again they have refused the immense favors to be bestowed upon them. Erebus knew not what reasons drive the Master of the Faith to this decision: perhaps shame, for the failures at the Ultimate Gate, or a feeling that he might not yet be worthy, or even because he manifests his devotion to the gods by denying himself that which he craves most.

Not that it mattered for Erebus. For him, all of the above were true, in some degree. But what really mattered for him was that a Deamon Prince could not be expected to move freely across the Galaxy until others established safe havens. For Erebus, that was opposed to the very idea of a missionary. HE was the spearhead. HE was supposed to be the one to sway others to the true faith. He would never ascend to Daemonhood until the entire Galaxy was united in prayers to the True Powers, under the leadership of the Word Bearers.

Merus
26-08-2010, 20:36
Actually, I find this point quite interesting, so I'm going to try and come up with a fluffy explanation.

There is probably nothing that Erebus would like more than to become a Daemon Prince. But from ancient times, he's seen himself as rather the missionary. Even before Lorgar brought him into the ranks of the blessed Seventeenth legion, he knew that his purpose was to spread the faith. He was young, and foolish then, but his devotion was strong. He could have enjoyed a life of luxury; so many opportunities had been open to him, in those days. Yet, he was strong willed and devoted, and chose a life of sacrifice in the name of a greater ideal. When he was chosen, along with his whole generation - the finest that Colchis could offer - to serve the Golden One, he instinctively knew that was his calling. Little did he know then that the False Emperor was playing them for fools. But his devotion was rewarded nonetheless, and the True Powers revealed the truth, first to the primarch, and, through him, to the rest of the faithful.

Over time, they grew strong, and many other joined their cause. And, when finally they were strong enough, they acted. The False Emperor met his end, but the weakness of their allies cost them the ultimate victory.

Since then, for a hundred centuries,the Word Bearers have been struggling for a second chance, with Kor Phaeron and Erebus at the forefront of the Legion. None are more deserving than them of the attention of the Chaos Gods. None, more deserving of Daemonic Ascension. But time and time again they have refused the immense favors to be bestowed upon them. Erebus knew not what reasons drive the Master of the Faith to this decision: perhaps shame, for the failures at the Ultimate Gate, or a feeling that he might not yet be worthy, or even because he manifests his devotion to the gods by denying himself that which he craves most.

Not that it mattered for Erebus. For him, all of the above were true, in some degree. But what really mattered for him was that a Deamon Prince could not be expected to move freely across the Galaxy until others established safe havens. For Erebus, that was opposed to the very idea of a missionary. HE was the spearhead. HE was supposed to be the one to sway others to the true faith. He would never ascend to Daemonhood until the entire Galaxy was united in prayers to the True Powers, under the leadership of the Word Bearers.

Very well said, Lupe.

I also find that (for myself anyways) there is a "rule of cool" aspect to it. Figures like Abaddon, Ahriman and Erebus are so cool because they're still Marines.

It somehow makes them seem all the more bad-ass. "I could be an immortal daemon if I wanted.. but I've got *&%^ to do.."

Mage
26-08-2010, 22:07
Either that or they like being taxied around in Land Raiders.

massey
26-08-2010, 22:44
Well, we don't really know that Erebus is all that important. Sure, he might have been an early adopter, but so what? Just because he's the first guy at work to buy an iPhone doesn't mean he's suddenly cool.

Same thing with Abaddon. Before the Heresy, he was basically Horus' Yes Man. His big skill was going "Good idea, boss." We don't have any indication that his tactical abilities or leadership skills were anything special. He just happened to be one of the guys in charge. Now, after 10,000 years, he's "the new Warmaster". Why is he still human? Maybe he hasn't pleased the gods enough yet. After all, there's got to be somebody who is the toughest still-human Chaos lord. It just so happens to be Abaddon. If Abaddon had become a demon-prince, we'd be asking the same question about some other dude.

mob16151
26-08-2010, 22:51
Well, we don't really know that Erebus is all that important. Sure, he might have been an early adopter, but so what? Just because he's the first guy at work to buy an iPhone doesn't mean he's suddenly cool.

Same thing with Abaddon. Before the Heresy, he was basically Horus' Yes Man. His big skill was going "Good idea, boss." We don't have any indication that his tactical abilities or leadership skills were anything special. He just happened to be one of the guys in charge. Now, after 10,000 years, he's "the new Warmaster". Why is he still human? Maybe he hasn't pleased the gods enough yet. After all, there's got to be somebody who is the toughest still-human Chaos lord. It just so happens to be Abaddon. If Abaddon had become a demon-prince, we'd be asking the same question about some other dude.

I'm reasonably certain Abaddon showed his tactical skills, when he helped the Black Legion survive the fallout amongst the traitors post heresy. If you remember after the heresy everyone was after the Black Legion, and yet there still here, and still strong.

spetswalshe
26-08-2010, 23:42
[note; I haven't read any HH books, and other background on Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron is confused at best)

A lot of people work on the assumption that every servant of Chaos wants to be a daemon prince. I'm pretty sure the ambition and desire has to be there for you to ascend; the gods won't give it to you if you're pretty ambivalent about it. And the way I see it, Abaddon and Erebus have much bigger things on their minds than personal power, glory, and a big old pair of bat wings. Abaddon's goal is to unite the followers of Chaos and crush the Imperium once and for all; Erebus' is to similar but more focused on spreading Chaos. Nothing in their backgrounds suggests that they're desperate for their gods' attention, because they're ultimately less ego-driven than the Primarchs. I mean, when you grow up as the most important person on the entire planet (usually akin to a god), spend a lifetime living as such, then a bunch of guys just like you turn up and start throwing their weight around, sooner or later you're going to want to stand up and make everyone start paying attention to you again and tell you you're the best. That's what the ascension to daemon prince is, and Erebus presumably just isn't that bothered by it.

Flawed
27-08-2010, 01:03
We're reasonably sure that ascension to Daemon Prince means you take on the agenda of your specific god right and you tend to lose focus on the material world as unimportant now. So how does it work for Chaos Undivided?

Perhaps Lorgar has his own agenda? Perhaps being a Daemon Prince isn't enough, and he aspires to being a god himself? If that's the case and this is based on nothing but personal fancy, maybe Erebus and Kor Phaeron are commanded to remain in order to drum up followers for Lorgar..?

massey
27-08-2010, 01:19
I'm reasonably certain Abaddon showed his tactical skills, when he helped the Black Legion survive the fallout amongst the traitors post heresy. If you remember after the heresy everyone was after the Black Legion, and yet there still here, and still strong.

I'm not saying he's an idiot. But as of the time of the Horus Heresy, there isn't really anything to separate Abaddon from the rest of the pack. So what if he's the Captain of the 1st Company of the Luna Wolves? That means he's probably pretty good, but he's not necessarily any better than any of the other fledgling Chaos lords. After all, this is in the days of the Primarchs micro-managing everything.

Abaddon is still around because of simple attrition.

So in the days after the Heresy, you've got, what, say a thousand different Chaos lords out there? At that point, Abaddon hadn't done anything to distinguish himself. He's just one of many. Now, of that thousand guys, over the next 10,000 years, let's say half are going to get killed. So that leaves us with 500 guys. Let's say half of the survivors are going to turn into demon princes. So let's yank those guys out of the pool. 250 left. And most of those are going to commit to one Chaos god or another. Let's just divide it up, 20% for each god, and 20% remaining Undivided. That gives us 50 guys who were commanders during the Horus Heresy who haven't gotten killed, haven't become demon princes, and haven't dedicated themselves to any one deity. Of those 50 remaining guys, one of them has to be the toughest.

That guy is Abaddon. It didn't have to be him. It could have been Captain Joe Bob of the Alpha Legion. But he got killed by a Catachan Barking Toad in the 36th Millennium. So it's not him. It could have been Commander Johnny of the Iron Warriors. But he was blessed by the gods during the Inixis Unveiling and turned into a walking cannon.

The general assumption that people make is backwards. The reason he didn't get turned into a demon prince isn't because he's the main character for Chaos. The reason he's the main character is because he's the guy who didn't get turned into a demon prince. That's why we've heard of him.

randian
27-08-2010, 01:34
In Word Bearers theology Lorgar isn't merely a daemon he's the Blessed Primarch, Favored of Chaos, and a divine being worthy of worship. Thinking you're his equal (implicit in becoming a Daemon Prince yourself) could be considered blasphemy.

Rylanor
27-08-2010, 01:57
I could swear I heard somewhere that Kor Phaeron was actually the first heretic. Oh yeah, that's an assumption I made based off of the upcoming BL book and Word Bearers fluff. Lol. But it's still a good question, I guess.

DarthMcBob
27-08-2010, 04:17
I could swear I heard somewhere that Kor Phaeron was actually the first heretic. Oh yeah, that's an assumption I made based off of the upcoming BL book and Word Bearers fluff. Lol. But it's still a good question, I guess.

Well, I might be misremembering, but the same question would apply to him as well.

Abaddon, according to the 3rd edition Chaos Codex, has been offered daemonhood 12 times or more. He's not one, because he wants to lead his forces personally to Terra and sacrifice the Emperor to the Chaos gods. It is suspected that he will ascend after he does that.

mob16151
27-08-2010, 04:30
Well, I might be misremembering, but the same question would apply to him as well.

Abaddon, according to the 3rd edition Chaos Codex, has been offered daemonhood 12 times or more. He's not one, because he wants to lead his forces personally to Terra and sacrifice the Emperor to the Chaos gods. It is suspected that he will ascend after he does that.

You know thats always been a little sticking point with me about GW's fluff. (Even though it's canon). I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of daemonhood being an offer you can refuse. In my mind it's always been like "Hey good job, here's your reward." *Cue maniacal laughter* "Not "Hey Good, job, you wanna be a daemon? No? Ok, thats cool then. Let us know if you change your mind."

DarthMcBob
27-08-2010, 04:58
You know thats always been a little sticking point with me about GW's fluff. (Even though it's canon). I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of daemonhood being an offer you can refuse. In my mind it's always been like "Hey good job, here's your reward." *Cue maniacal laughter* "Not "Hey Good, job, you wanna be a daemon? No? Ok, thats cool then. Let us know if you change your mind."

Well, to be fair, Abaddon is somewhat of a special case. He is the special champion of all four gods, and marked by them. He has enough influence with them to speak and negotiate on their behalf. An example is found in Storm of Iron, where he strikes a deal with an un-named Warsmith that he will get Daemonhood if he succeeds in his mission, and Spawndom if he fails. The Chaos Gods go through with this by turning him into a Daemon Prince. This shows he has more influence with the Chaos gods than almost anyone else does. So it seems perfectly reasonable to me that they'd be willing to respect his wishes and postpone his daemonhood until after he sacrifices the Emperor to them as long as he keeps leading their armies to war.

mob16151
27-08-2010, 05:02
Well, to be fair, Abaddon is somewhat of a special case. He is the special champion of all four gods, and marked by them. He has enough influence with them to speak and negotiate on their behalf. An example is found in Storm of Iron, where he strikes a deal with an un-named Warsmith that he will get Daemonhood if he succeeds in his mission, and Spawndom if he fails. The Chaos Gods go through with this by turning him into a Daemon Prince. This shows he has more influence with the Chaos gods than almost anyone else does. So it seems perfectly reasonable to me that they'd be willing to respect his wishes and postpone his daemonhood until after he sacrifices the Emperor to them as long as he keeps leading their armies to war.

I can agree with Abaddon. But aren't there other Chaos Marines that have turned down Ascension? Or am I hallucinating this?

DarthMcBob
27-08-2010, 05:09
I can agree with Abaddon. But aren't there other Chaos Marines that have turned down Ascension? Or am I hallucinating this?

As far as I know, there's no one else who has been stated to have rejected daemonhood.

HK-47
27-08-2010, 05:42
The way I see things most chaos champions only care about achieving daemonhood, but guys like Abaddon and Erebus don't simply want the power that daemonhood offers. They have a plan for the future of humanity; this means that they play a very active role in shaping mortal events to bring about the new order. So, ever if they spend most of their time in the Eye of Terror they are engaging in all sorts of political intrigue and subversion; that a daemon can't really do. Daemons really only care about the great game and really only see the mortal world as a way to gain favor for their god by killing things, eating souls, and doing all that other stuff. The best example of this are the Daemon-Primarchs who other then Angron don't leave the warp, Magnus also left the warp but that was only to fight the Space Wolves, while Angron been out destroying sectors.

Basically after a certain point Daemon Princes simple stop caring about anything other than getting their gods attention. This is something that Erebus, and other chaos champions that have agendas, want to avoid. So they reject daemon-hood.

bp.
27-08-2010, 20:10
As far as I know, there's no one else who has been stated to have rejected daemonhood.
Talos - Soul Hunter.

DarthMcBob
27-08-2010, 20:16
Talos - Soul Hunter.

He rejected offers to serve the Chaos gods in return for their individual patronage. He was not offered daemonhood, nor was he a servant of Chaos beforehand.

Askil the Undecided
27-08-2010, 20:26
Don't think of Abaddon's refusal to ascend as casual as telling the gods he doesn't want to more as a sacred pledge to storm Terra, trash the golden throne and crush the Emperor's head under his boot before he ascends.

Astelan
28-08-2010, 00:49
I think Erebus has in fact left sicarus before, at least one example of this is a story in the dark millennium collection, "The Prisoner" by Graham McNeil. In it Erebus allows himself to be captured by the imperium on some backwater prison world in order to attract the attention of a powerful inquisitor who has information he wants.

in Anthony Reynolds word bearers series i seem to remember council members leaving sicarus from time to time to pursue their own goals, there are probably a few on sicarus at any given time, but i doubt they all gather unless something truly momentous is happening to the legion.

Son of Sanguinius
28-08-2010, 02:38
They are Space Marines. They are warriors. They are champions of Chaos, whose ultimate goal is to spread strife, anarchy and destruction.

Unless there is constant war being waged on Sicarius with legitimate power at stake, it seems rather ridiculous for Erebus and co. to simply sit there and play politics.

HK-47
28-08-2010, 03:06
They are Space Marines. They are warriors. They are champions of Chaos, whose ultimate goal is to spread strife, anarchy and destruction.

Unless there is constant war being waged on Sicarius with legitimate power at stake, it seems rather ridiculous for Erebus and co. to simply sit there and play politics.

However, Erebus doesn't want to simply spread strife, anarchy and destruction. He wants to usher in an age where humanity worships the chaos gods as the true masters of the human race, and the galaxy, to do that he has to keep his legion a united and effective fighting force. That is a lot of work and involves a lot of politics.

Also who says he never leaves Sicarius? Just because he doesn't have rules doesn't mean he doesn't fight.

Merus
28-08-2010, 03:14
They are Space Marines. They are warriors. They are champions of Chaos, whose ultimate goal is to spread strife, anarchy and destruction.

Unless there is constant war being waged on Sicarius with legitimate power at stake, it seems rather ridiculous for Erebus and co. to simply sit there and play politics.


Their Primarch is in isolation "meditating", and he's been that way long enough that some are starting to worry.

It makes perfect sense that the most faithful stay on Sicarius keeping up the morale of the Legion while their father is away.

Son of Sanguinius
28-08-2010, 03:23
Their Primarch is in isolation "meditating", and he's been that way long enough that some are starting to worry.

It makes perfect sense that the most faithful stay on Sicarius keeping up the morale of the Legion while their father is away.

The only way to ensure Space Marine morale is victory in battle. That's what they are hard-wired for. And for all that Chaos does to alter their perspectives, it can't detract from their skills or love of combat or Chaos doesn't get what it wanted.

It doesn't make any sense to sit around and try and cheer up combat-addicts.

N0-1_H3r3
28-08-2010, 07:23
It doesn't make any sense to sit around and try and cheer up combat-addicts.
What about religious lunatics whose father figure/icon of devotion has gone into seclusion for thousands of years.

There is more to a marine's mind than just the on-switch for his trigger finger... yes, they are defined by the fact that they're warriors... but that doesn't mean that they're only warriors, with no conception of anything else.

Brother Siccarius
28-08-2010, 12:01
I think for the same reason that warriors like Kharn, Lucius, Ahriman, Typhus, and Abaddon haven't- you get to roam farther.

Being a Demon Prince in the material realm requires a large focus of warp energy, usually from a nearby storm or group of potent psykers. This restricts where you can go and forces you to lay down ground work for any area unprepared for your arrival (usually sending agents head to work up rebellion or create sacrifices). Erebus, by dint of being mortal, can simply go where he wishes. As a true disciple of the Chaos Gods, he could rationalize that, as a mortal, he can do far more to further the aims of his patrons.

Add to that that accepting actual gifts from the Chaos Gods tends to get you one step closer to being a spawn as often as you get one step closer to getting demonhood. The above guys also tend to be the most prideful about how they use Chaos. They seem to be fairly atheistic about their usage of their power, and less inclined to worship. They use the Chaos Gods as much as the Chaos Gods try to use them. Ahriman is noted directly for going against his god's "will" by trying to removed the bestowed mutations from his legion. Kharn doesn't care so much about Khorne as he does killing. Lucius uses Slaanesh to constantly improve his abilities, and he's the pinnacle of prideful characters.

Son of Sanguinius
28-08-2010, 15:04
What about religious lunatics whose father figure/icon of devotion has gone into seclusion for thousands of years.

There is more to a marine's mind than just the on-switch for his trigger finger... yes, they are defined by the fact that they're warriors... but that doesn't mean that they're only warriors, with no conception of anything else.

Why do the Word Bearers worship? Why would a legion of elite biological killing machines worship a particular set of deities? Because the Gods provide them with eternal war.

I know there is more psychological depth to a Space Marine than point, shoot, repeat, but think of it this way- Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, we humans do has the underlying motivation of the biological need to procreate. Everything from the creation and desire for a shopping mall to the waging of nuclear war stems from a need to control territory and resources so that we may continue the species and push the advantages of our own young.

Space Marines have had this need replaced with the need for combat. The very definition of their existence depends on their capability to wage war. Now, a Space Marine may also enjoy art, sport, drugs, politics, or whatever, but it all serves the purpose of war or stems from a facet of them that has been altered by war. War is the endgame, the goal, and the purpose. They don't need or use other justification. They are meant to conquer and annihilate.

The very reason the traitors turned was because the conquest of the galaxy was coming to a close and they could find no proper challenge aside from other legions. The Primarchs feared becoming irrelevant, just as they had made so many other generals and commanders by leaving them in charge of the conquered planets. They came to hate the Emperor because they could see no further purpose for themselves beyond the Great Crusade.

In the case of the Word Bearers and other fanatic Marines, deities are worshiped because it gives their need to destroy a sense of divine purpose and fulfillment and because when worshiped, the Ruinous Powers give the Marines more tools with which to fight and win.

N0-1_H3r3
28-08-2010, 17:44
Why do the Word Bearers worship? Why would a legion of elite biological killing machines worship a particular set of deities? Because the Gods provide them with eternal war.
Are we certain of this? The Word Bearers, as far as we know at the moment (subject to change pending the release of The First Heretic), turned to Chaos because the Emperor spurned their devotion, supposedly because they didn't spend enough time waging war, distracting themselves instead with the construction of monuments and the conversion of populations to their beliefs.

The Word Bearers - as the last remnant of the people of Colchis (an extremely religious group of people in their day) - have a need for a subject of their religious fervour. What they do in the name of that god or gods is another matter entirely.


The very reason the traitors turned was because the conquest of the galaxy was coming to a close and they could find no proper challenge aside from other legions. The Primarchs feared becoming irrelevant, just as they had made so many other generals and commanders by leaving them in charge of the conquered planets. They came to hate the Emperor because they could see no further purpose for themselves beyond the Great Crusade.
Which assumes that the Traitor Legions turned by themselves, rather than being enticed and coerced; the Great Crusade only ended then because the Heresy began.. there was more yet to claim, species yet to be rendered extinct. That the Emperor returned to Terra and the infrastructure of the Imperium was starting to be put into place was not a sign of the end of the Crusade, so much as a change of pace... and the Primarchs' insecurities were played upon by the servants of the Chaos Gods.

spetswalshe
28-08-2010, 17:49
I know there is more psychological depth to a Space Marine than point, shoot, repeat, but think of it this way- Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, we humans do has the underlying motivation of the biological need to procreate. Everything from the creation and desire for a shopping mall to the waging of nuclear war stems from a need to control territory and resources so that we may continue the species and push the advantages of our own young.

Space Marines have had this need replaced with the need for combat. The very definition of their existence depends on their capability to wage war. Now, a Space Marine may also enjoy art, sport, drugs, politics, or whatever, but it all serves the purpose of war or stems from a facet of them that has been altered by war. War is the endgame, the goal, and the purpose. They don't need or use other justification. They are meant to conquer and annihilate.

I don't think that's true. As conscious beings, we have the ability to ascend base drives like that of procreation to the point where a certain amount of abstract thinking is required to link those drives to our current actions (a good thinker is able to link literally every action a human could take, including altruism and infanticide, to the survival instinct, but that doesn't make it correct). While they may be intended for war, plenty of Space Marines would be capable of having a perfectly peaceful life; look at the DA Fallen, or Noise Marines (for whom combat is a means to an end, not the end in itself) or Marine renegades - the only reason we don't read about the Space Marine who quit to become a farmer is because it doesn't make as good a story as the Marine who quit to become a psychopathic serial killer.

Lord_BoB
28-08-2010, 18:15
It could be that wile they may want ascension that the chaos gods have deemed that for the moment they can serve them better as mortals. Erebus for example is major political power amongst the word bearers, and Abaddon is trying to be the warmaster for the chaos legions, now they may not have been granted daemonhood, but it doesn't mean they have displeased the gods, but they might not be able to achieve the same goals that the gods want them to achieve.

It seems to me that a lot of the time that champions receive daemonhood is when they've reached a pinnacle and the gods have thought to to themselves "aside from destroying things this champion isn't going to achieve goals that another mortal can't do, so lets give him more powers to kill things".

Merus
28-08-2010, 19:21
Why do the Word Bearers worship? Why would a legion of elite biological killing machines worship a particular set of deities? Because the Gods provide them with eternal war.

I think you're taking a cleaver to what makes them such a unique chapter in the first place.

The Word Bearers, and their Primarch more specifically, were chastised for making war at such a slow pace. Now, this wasn't because they were unskilled in the art-of-war; it's because they were dedicated to a cause closer to their hearts than the great crusade, they had a "higher calling", bringing people into their faith. Making true believers of a populace was more important to them than "war" for the sake of "war".

I think this, alongside other bits of evidence, like the Thousand Sons placing more value on knowledge and enlightenment than anything else shows that Marines can have pursuits more important to them than simply killing. I think they're much deeper than that.

KingDeath
28-08-2010, 21:07
The Word Bearers worship because they have the deeply ingrained desire to worship something. To give their existence a purpose. Waging war is not their purpose, it is merely their occupation. Spreading the faith, with fire and sword if necessary, with words and rhetoric if possible is their purpose in life.

Power, while always useful and of course desired, is ultimately a secondary concern. I think that is the reason why neither Kor Phaeron nor Erebus have chosen to become Daemon Princes.

At least that is my understanding of the situation :)

Lupe
28-08-2010, 21:56
The Word Bearers worship because they have the deeply ingrained desire to worship something. To give their existence a purpose. Waging war is not their purpose, it is merely their occupation. Spreading the faith, with fire and sword if necessary, with words and rhetoric if possible is their purpose in life.

Actually, I would argue the contrary. It's religion that gives Word Bearers something to do when they're not killing. All Astartes, all primarchs, were created for that purpose, and they have it engraved in their genes. It is only in the absence of war that they feel this overwhelming emptiness, and they seek ways to fill that void by turning their attention elsewhere. The Word Bearers find some measure of purpose in religion. The Iron Warriors find it in tinkering with technology. The Thousand Sons find it in amassing and studying ancient lore. The World Eaters find it in in ritual duels and other displays of martial prowess.

It was the very absence of war on Colchis that lead Lorgar to become what we now know him as. It was the absence of war that forged the Word Bearers into the legion of fanatics we know and love. They're the exception that confirms the rule. They're the ones whose hobbies happened to take up their attention instead of war. And they're the ones whose hobbies simply happened to be the most direct path to encountering the Chaos Gods.

But at the very heart of it all, Astartes are killers. Men of war, down to their very last cells. They could have converted the galaxy, one world at a time, had their genetic craving for war not made them rush the Heresy. And even when the Warmaster fell and the legions fled in disarray, they could have salvaged everything, by focusing their efforts on spreading their religion. But, instead, they fight the other legions in the Eye. They systematically join Abaddon's crusades. They spend more time fighting within their very legion than to actually perfect themselves in their trade.

SamaNagol
28-08-2010, 23:13
Pretty sure that Kor Phaeron was already under the sway of the Chaos powers before the Emperor ever met Lorgar.

N0-1_H3r3
29-08-2010, 07:25
Pretty sure that Kor Phaeron was already under the sway of the Chaos powers before the Emperor ever met Lorgar.
That may well be true; certainly, I've heard suggestions that the old, pre-Imperial religion on Colchis was devotion to Chaos, and that while they were freed from it when the Emperor arrived, the Word Bearers returned to it when their devotions were spurned.

Not personally sure how I feel about the idea, but it's one I've heard.

DarthMcBob
29-08-2010, 23:29
Actually, I would argue the contrary. It's religion that gives Word Bearers something to do when they're not killing. All Astartes, all primarchs, were created for that purpose, and they have it engraved in their genes. It is only in the absence of war that they feel this overwhelming emptiness, and they seek ways to fill that void by turning their attention elsewhere. The Word Bearers find some measure of purpose in religion. The Iron Warriors find it in tinkering with technology. The Thousand Sons find it in amassing and studying ancient lore. The World Eaters find it in in ritual duels and other displays of martial prowess.

It was the very absence of war on Colchis that lead Lorgar to become what we now know him as. It was the absence of war that forged the Word Bearers into the legion of fanatics we know and love. They're the exception that confirms the rule. They're the ones whose hobbies happened to take up their attention instead of war. And they're the ones whose hobbies simply happened to be the most direct path to encountering the Chaos Gods.

But at the very heart of it all, Astartes are killers. Men of war, down to their very last cells. They could have converted the galaxy, one world at a time, had their genetic craving for war not made them rush the Heresy. And even when the Warmaster fell and the legions fled in disarray, they could have salvaged everything, by focusing their efforts on spreading their religion. But, instead, they fight the other legions in the Eye. They systematically join Abaddon's crusades. They spend more time fighting within their very legion than to actually perfect themselves in their trade.

Lorgar has spent thousands of years in a temple, meditating by himself. If all he is designed for and all he really wants to do is fight, then why doesn't he come out and do just that?

Son of Sanguinius
29-08-2010, 23:40
Lorgar has spent thousands of years in a temple, meditating by himself. If all he is designed for and all he really wants to do is fight, then why doesn't he come out and do just that?

He's a demon. What he was designed to be and do originally doesn't matter anymore. And thousands of years for us may be a Sunday church visit for him.

DarthMcBob
29-08-2010, 23:51
He's a demon. What he was designed to be and do originally doesn't matter anymore. And thousands of years for us may be a Sunday church visit for him.

Daemons do perceive time, you know. The can get impatient (particularly if they're Khornate). We know that time works normally on Sicarus because it is explicitly shown to be countable and understandable, following a pattern (ie. Murdak knows he's been meditating for months, not centuries). Also, what could he possibly be meditating on? Contrary to constant claims otherwise, the Chaos gods always act in a perfectly predictable way, with the same goals in mind all the time. Their motives are incredibly simple to grasp (which makes sense, what with them being made of emotions and all). Khorne always wants blood n' skulls. Nurgle always wants plague. Slaaneesh always wants sensation. Tzeentch always wants scheming. Do you understand that? Congratulations, you understand the goals and motives of the Chaos Gods. That doesn't take five minutes, much less thousands of years.

Nazguire
30-08-2010, 05:34
Daemons do perceive time, you know. The can get impatient (particularly if they're Khornate). We know that time works normally on Sicarus because it is explicitly shown to be countable and understandable, following a pattern (ie. Murdak knows he's been meditating for months, not centuries). Also, what could he possibly be meditating on? Contrary to constant claims otherwise, the Chaos gods always act in a perfectly predictable way, with the same goals in mind all the time. Their motives are incredibly simple to grasp (which makes sense, what with them being made of emotions and all). Khorne always wants blood n' skulls. Nurgle always wants plague. Slaaneesh always wants sensation. Tzeentch always wants scheming. Do you understand that? Congratulations, you understand the goals and motives of the Chaos Gods. That doesn't take five minutes, much less thousands of years.

My view is that Lorgar (being made of Warp energy nowadays) pretty much is part of the Warp now. He ain't coming back, he's transcended from mortal existence. The 'meditating' part just helped him get there. He isn't on Sicarus physically any longer. For all we know, he could be Sicarus now.

Iracundus
30-08-2010, 06:24
My view is that Lorgar (being made of Warp energy nowadays) pretty much is part of the Warp now. He ain't coming back, he's transcended from mortal existence. The 'meditating' part just helped him get there. He isn't on Sicarus physically any longer. For all we know, he could be Sicarus now.

It would be ironic for the Word Bearers to be waiting for him to finish his meditations if he were not there any more. However, ascending to be a Daemon Primarch wouldn't preclude interaction as shown by all the other examples of Daemon Primarchs returning to dabble in the affairs of their followers and the rest of the mortal world. That assumes of course that Lorgar wasn't already a Daemon Primarch by the time he went inside the temple.

Nazguire
31-08-2010, 16:09
We know he was a Daemon Primarch from the Horus Heresy artbooks. I'm of the opinion that the more time the Primarchs spend as daemons, the less they concern themselves with mortal affairs. See Storm of Iron (as the Warsmith disappears) to understand what I mean. That's what I believe has happened to Lorgar.

And it would be the greatest irony if Lorgar had transcended and the Word Bearers still waited for his prophecised return, much like the loyalists have their own theories of Primarchs returning (ie. Russ/Guiliman/Ferrus Mannus etc), not knowing he wasn't coming back. Which is why I'm a fan of it.