PDA

View Full Version : Another - dispelling 'remains in play' rule query.



mortiferum
26-08-2010, 21:35
Here's the scenario.

1. I have 'Throne of Vines' (ToV) already in play
2. I managed to cast 'Dwellers Below' with Irresitable Force.
3. Opponent obviously can't dispel the 'Dwellers Below' BUT can he attempt to dispel the ToV prior to resolving 'Dwellers Below' (not really important) on his unit AND (most importantly) my attempt to avoid a miscast on a 2+?

Edit: Did a quick search and found other queries regarding 'RiP' spells but those seemed to be focused on when the magic phase ends - didn't find this specific query - if its been asked / anserwed previously please if you would be so kind to direct me to the thread / post - Many thanks in advance.

Haravikk
26-08-2010, 21:43
The rule for remains in play states "can be dispelled at any point in a subsequent magic phase" so it seems the dispelling player can do it whenever they want and arguably this would mean they could remove your throne of vines and all benefits it gives before you get a chance to use them (to prevent Miscast in this case).

It's a little bit iffy as throne of vines kind of takes effect as you roll Irresistible Force, but adhering to the strict order things are done in, and the ability to dispel remains in play at any point, then I think a player can remove your miscast prevention ability, as it will be gone by the time you get to the part of the phase where you would roll to prevent the Miscast.

xxRavenxx
26-08-2010, 22:01
I think any normal person would play it that you can only attempt to dispel at the start of the phase, OR after each spell thereafter. Interrupting a spell to tackle another is rather... ropey.

Tarian
26-08-2010, 22:03
My group always dispels RiPs after the turn player finishes casting, works well for us, and avoids odd situations usually.

Ranhothep
27-08-2010, 06:56
I'd also agree that it is possible, but I would love having a calrification from GW. But considering there are several "possible actions" before the spell is resolved like for example roll modifications (Blood of Tzeentch or Empire Luckstone iirc) than it seems possible to squeeze an "any point in time" dispell attempt inbetween.

I have to admit also though, that with the Throne being so ridiculously good and casting the insane dwellers spell allmost without risk on 6 dice all the time, I have no problem nerfing this stupid combo.

Loopstah
27-08-2010, 09:11
I would say the player whose turn it is decides which happens first. That seems to be the new mantra from GW this edition.

PeG
27-08-2010, 09:28
I would agree that it can be dispelled before the casting attempt of dwellers or after the effect of dwellers have been resolved. Since the boost is to the caster once the second spell have been cast the effect of the first one is already built in.

Or use go with the person whose turn it is which will usually give the same result.

Warboss Doink
27-08-2010, 10:30
I agree. The players who's turn it is, can decide which effect to resolve first.

Ranhothep
27-08-2010, 12:33
This is not about an effect, this is simply about the dispeller rolling his dispell dice whenever he feels like it, coz the rulebook says so. There are no timing rules or actions that need to be completed before another can be taken, so there is plenty of "moments" before you are finished resolving Dwellers and are about to resolve the miscast.

As a reference to "at any time" imagine you have Purple Sun in play near your unit, which becomes subject to random movement (some spell or stupidity for instance) It turns out your random movement takes you into the template. I'm pretty sure you would agree that you have again plenty of "moments" to cancel the spell before you reach it, even though you have rolled for your movement and found out you would eventually contact it...

Killjoy00
27-08-2010, 13:50
Well, the FAQ suggests you should only end RIP at the end of phases. That's how we play it.

Haravikk
27-08-2010, 14:31
I dunno, the rule seems kind of clear. Personally I'd play with any time being valid, except once dice for a spell have been rolled only a normal dispel attempt can be made for that spell until after it is resolved.

This way you can butt in and get rid of an effect mid-phase depending how the dice pools are holding up, get rid of something right at the start, or just deal with it at the end with any dice you have left. Decent mix of freedom, and hopefully not too disruptive. I mean I've not had many games where there have been that many RiP spells anyway, usually only one at a time.

Grentain
27-08-2010, 14:55
My suggestion:

Player one: "Okay, Magic Phase..."
Player two: *dice hit the table* "Bam. Dispelled Throne of Vines."

There aren't too many games like this where being quick to react is important, but considering how the rules are stated, you've just got to beat 'em to the punch.

Memnos
27-08-2010, 14:56
Given that this is not Magic and there's no such thing as 'Interrupts' in Games Workshop games, I would say everything resolves completely before anything else is done.

Otherwise, what I'm going to do is the following whenever I play someone who thinks like that:

1) I cast a spell.

2) Before I 'resolve' the miscast, I interrupt the first spell to cast another. And another, until I'm all out of dice. Preferably, I 'interrupt' the person dispelling throne of vines and snipe him to death before he can dispel.

3) I resolve the miscast, then lose d6 dice from my non-existent pool that finished casting everything.

Mid'ean
27-08-2010, 16:36
Given that this is not Magic and there's no such thing as 'Interrupts' in Games Workshop games, I would say everything resolves completely before anything else is done.

Otherwise, what I'm going to do is the following whenever I play someone who thinks like that:

1) I cast a spell.

2) Before I 'resolve' the miscast, I interrupt the first spell to cast another. And another, until I'm all out of dice. Preferably, I 'interrupt' the person dispelling throne of vines and snipe him to death before he can dispel.

3) I resolve the miscast, then lose d6 dice from my non-existent pool that finished casting everything.

Tell the HE that. They seem to have come up with a tactic of charging their wizard into combat. During the magic phase transform into big monster, attack with him with ASF and KB, and then after all his attacks are done, killing most everything in front of him, transform back by " ending his RIP spell at that moment, before the enemy strikes back. He is also wearing some robes that protect him from normal attacks...Pretty much denying any attacks back.

Haravikk
27-08-2010, 17:11
1) I cast a spell.

2) Before I 'resolve' the miscast, I interrupt the first spell to cast another. And another, until I'm all out of dice. Preferably, I 'interrupt' the person dispelling throne of vines and snipe him to death before he can dispel.

3) I resolve the miscast, then lose d6 dice from my non-existent pool that finished casting everything.
Except that casting spells doesn't work in the same way, it has to be done one spell at a time and each spell must be resolved completely before moving onto the next. The remains in play rule is the one that states that it can be done at any point during the magic phase.

So as written you could, if you wanted, stop mid-way through a spell to dispel an enemy one and use up power dice that way, but no other case exists that I'm aware of. It's kind of fluffy though if you think on it as it represents a wizard desperately trying to discharge the excess magical energy on something else before it fries his face off.

a18no
27-08-2010, 17:17
As a reference to "at any time" imagine you have Purple Sun in play near your unit, which becomes subject to random movement (some spell or stupidity for instance) It turns out your random movement takes you into the template. I'm pretty sure you would agree that you have again plenty of "moments" to cancel the spell before you reach it, even though you have rolled for your movement and found out you would eventually contact it...

Following the FAQ for the BRB, you can only stopped VORTEX at the beginning of a phase!

PeG
27-08-2010, 17:17
We have to accept that the rules are not perfect and use some common sense. HE casters changing back before return strikes should be the same type if idea as for WoC to cast call to glory and then remove the spell before the enemy strikes. At least in the previous FAQ this was allowed but considered bad sportmanship.

On the other hand it doesnt really make sense since it should be easier to kill the wizard then the monster he turned into if you have any type of magical attacks and without them the monster will most likely survive anyway.

Once the monster has some wounds then is the time to change back into being a wizard again before you become a new healthy monster.

a18no
27-08-2010, 17:23
We have to accept that the rules are not perfect and use some common sense. HE casters changing back before return strikes should be the same type if idea as for WoC to cast call to glory and then remove the spell before the enemy strikes. At least in the previous FAQ this was allowed but considered bad sportmanship.

On the other hand it doesnt really make sense since it should be easier to kill the wizard then the monster he turned into if you have any type of magical attacks and without them the monster will most likely survive anyway.

Once the monster has some wounds then is the time to change back into being a wizard again before you become a new healthy monster.

But if the monster loose 3 wounds, if he change back he is dead.

Loopstah
27-08-2010, 17:43
On the other hand it doesnt really make sense since it should be easier to kill the wizard then the monster he turned into if you have any type of magical attacks and without them the monster will most likely survive anyway.
.

You would need to have magical attacks as a special rule (Daemons, Ethereal) otherwise your magic weapons wouldn't work and the wizard would be impossible to hit. That's assuming they are doing it right.

Yrrdead
27-08-2010, 17:55
Honestly they had a chance to resolve this in the FAQ (which they did do for vortex's,which only matters for Purple Sun) and they did not.

I suggest that you discuss this with your opponent prior to the game starting. This will only take a minute and save time during the game .

frest
27-08-2010, 19:43
The rule for remains in play states "can be dispelled at any point in a subsequent magic phase"
subsequent
1.
occurring or coming later or after
2.
following in order or succession;



In context, "subsequent magic phase" means any magic phase after the current one.

So no, you can't dispel a Remains-in-Play spell on the same turn that it has been cast. Your chance to dispel it on the same turn it was cast was when the player was casting it, at the value he rolled with his power dice.

If the Throne of Vines was cast last turn, then go hog wild... but there's nothing stopping the player from simply casting it again (especially since you're already committing some of your dispell dice to getting rid of a remains-in-play spell...)

a18no
27-08-2010, 19:53
I think what they said is that they dispel it when +4T is cast with IF (when vines is active) instead of dispelling the spell behind casted. That way the caster will have to roll on the miscast table (due to +4T behing casted with IF) and can do nothing to that cause the caster don't have time to recast vines before applying IF of the +4T.

Damocles8
27-08-2010, 20:13
You would need to have magical attacks as a special rule (Daemons, Ethereal) otherwise your magic weapons wouldn't work and the wizard would be impossible to hit. That's assuming they are doing it right.

Wait, what? Are you attempting to say that Magic Weapon attacks aren't magical?

Yrrdead
27-08-2010, 20:20
Wait, what? Are you attempting to say that Magic Weapon attacks aren't magical?

He is talking about the combo of Talisman of Saphery and Folariath's Robe. Both can be found in the HE AB.

Loopstah
27-08-2010, 20:22
Wait, what? Are you attempting to say that Magic Weapon attacks aren't magical?

No, I'm saying anybody going to the trouble to make their elven Mage immune to non-magical attacks will normally also take the item that makes magic weapons in base contact non-magical.

Although it does require an Archmage, you can't fit the points on a Mage.

The only thing that can hurt them then is Daemon/ Ethereal types with natural magical attacks.

a18no
27-08-2010, 20:33
But if you gave him all this items, he will struggle to cast transformation...

Haravikk
27-08-2010, 23:22
subsequent
1.
occurring or coming later or after
2.
following in order or succession;
I know just fine what subsequent means as evidenced by the fact I didn't misuse it; if you're going to be pedantic about a word then please do read the problem that I was responding to, which is a player attempting to dispel a throne of vines cast in a previous turn in an "out of sequence" way.

Warboss Doink
28-08-2010, 15:13
I know just fine what subsequent means as evidenced by the fact I didn't misuse it; if you're going to be pedantic about a word then please do read the problem that I was responding to, which is a player attempting to dispel a throne of vines cast in a previous turn in an "out of sequence" way.

You can declare a dispel at any time you wish too. But the player who's turn it is, decides the order of resolving things, meaning that your dispel is put on the pile of to-be-resolved things, but the actual resolving moment, will be at the leisure of the current casting player.

So you can declare a dispel on the throne, immediately after the the casting for +4 was declared, but it will not stop the throne from boosting it to +4 and it will not stop the throne from giving a 2+ on a possible miscast on the +4 though.

The dispel will however stop the next spell cast by the caster, to be boosted by the throne, because there are rules against a player interrupting his own spells with spells. You have to fully resolve a cast before moving on to the next.

a18no
30-08-2010, 00:48
You can declare a dispel at any time you wish too. But the player who's turn it is, decides the order of resolving things, meaning that your dispel is put on the pile of to-be-resolved things, but the actual resolving moment, will be at the leisure of the current casting player.

So you can declare a dispel on the throne, immediately after the the casting for +4 was declared, but it will not stop the throne from boosting it to +4 and it will not stop the throne from giving a 2+ on a possible miscast on the +4 though.

The dispel will however stop the next spell cast by the caster, to be boosted by the throne, because there are rules against a player interrupting his own spells with spells. You have to fully resolve a cast before moving on to the next.

Point for you: dispel resolution happen before casting resolution by the rule!! It's just that nothing cover specificly which spell you are dispelling!!

The technic is to use only in tournement though.. and only if their's no friendship score.!

VoodooJanus
30-08-2010, 01:04
Uh... no.

He's saying that the player whose turn it is gets to determine when anything happens, so he can decide to have your dispel attempt reserved until the end of the turn. Which means it doesn't effect ToV until the player whose turn it is says it is.

hacksaaw
30-08-2010, 01:46
oh please, you dont get to interupt the process. at the moment the spell is succesfully cast it goes off there is no space to hold up and dispell vines or anything else before implementing the spell.

because at the very moment you dont dispell it, or fail to, or you roll IF The spell has been cast with every effect in play at that point.

and the process of casting one spell includes dispelling only that spell, not any other.

it really is that simple. you have a choice dispell vines before he rolls the dice for the spell, or wait until after its resolved.

Bloody Nunchucks
30-08-2010, 03:23
you cant interrupt a spells resolution in order to dispell something. you can attemt to dispell thrones but the player who just cast dwellers would say that dwellers goes off first, since its his turn he decides the order.

Warboss Doink
30-08-2010, 07:39
Point for you: dispel resolution happen before casting resolution by the rule!! It's just that nothing cover specificly which spell you are dispelling!!

The technic is to use only in tournement though.. and only if their's no friendship score.!

I dare you to try this at a tournament. A judge will be handing you your coat, before you can get the words 'interruptive dispelling' out. ;)

Teongpeng
30-08-2010, 12:50
warhammer is not magic the gathering.

Ranhothep
30-08-2010, 12:55
No one is arguing about spell interruption. The spell resolves, boosted by thrones. However, I do believe you can resolve the dispell before you resolve the ensuing miscast that's all. The rules are too vague about this and don't forbid it simply.

a18no
30-08-2010, 12:56
No one is arguing about spell interruption. The spell resolves, boosted by thrones. However, I do believe you can resolve the dispell before you resolve the ensuing miscast that's all. The rules are too vague about this and don't forbid it simply.

Right

Miscast and castin are not at the same time. They are clearly in a fix order by the RAW.

I put my dispel attempt of vines at the same time of you casting attempt. It's your turn, you choose the order, but the order you choose is for DISPEL and CASTING, not the miscast.

Teongpeng
30-08-2010, 13:17
Right

Miscast and castin are not at the same time. They are clearly in a fix order by the RAW.

I put my dispel attempt of vines at the same time of you casting attempt. It's your turn, you choose the order, but the order you choose is for DISPEL and CASTING, not the miscast.um dude...seriously, where do u get that rule from? casting attempts are made followed by dispell attempts. in strict order....there is no such thing as choosing which order to do this and that.

Kloud13
05-09-2010, 07:26
There is a sequence that is followed in the magic phase. (See Summary in back of BRB)

1.Cast
2.Dispell
3.Spell Resolution
4.Next Spell

If you Cast with irresistable force, you skip dispell, and Resolve the spell. From th looks of the summary, rolling on the miscast table is part of resolving your spell.

So, it would be during the "Spell Resolution" that an opponent would want to dispell Throne of Vines. We now go to the "Sequencing" rule on page 10 of the BRB.

"........, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resloved first, then the players whose turn it is chooses the order."

So go ahead and try and Dispell Throne of Vines, Just your opponent decides if your dispell attempt takes place imediatly, or after he has finished resloving his spell, including miscast.

Teongpeng
05-09-2010, 15:49
There is a sequence that is followed in the magic phase. (See Summary in back of BRB)

1.Cast
2.Dispell
3.Spell Resolution
4.Next Spell

If you Cast with irresistable force, you skip dispell, and Resolve the spell. From th looks of the summary, rolling on the miscast table is part of resolving your spell.

So, it would be during the "Spell Resolution" that an opponent would want to dispell Throne of Vines. We now go to the "Sequencing" rule on page 10 of the BRB.

"........, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resloved first, then the players whose turn it is chooses the order."

So go ahead and try and Dispell Throne of Vines, Just your opponent decides if your dispell attempt takes place imediatly, or after he has finished resloving his spell, including miscast.Not quite right there. If u want to dispell the TOV, you have to declare it before he cast his next spell. You cant interupt him as he is resolving his 'next' spell. Like i said earlier...this isnt magic the gathering.

Warboss Doink
06-09-2010, 16:27
Right

Miscast and castin are not at the same time. They are clearly in a fix order by the RAW.

I put my dispel attempt of vines at the same time of you casting attempt. It's your turn, you choose the order, but the order you choose is for DISPEL and CASTING, not the miscast.

The resolution of a spell (cast, chance for dispel (of the spell being cast and that spell only!), resolution and miscast effects) is atomic. This cycle knows no interruption.

It's been confirmed a number of times by several people now. I think this one is clear now.

Elyssia
07-09-2010, 05:21
+1 on no interruption.

a18no
07-09-2010, 14:14
People that are against the interuption part are for or against the High archmage that dispel his dragon form before receiving attack? He is blocking attack back at him before they occure...

Dragoon999
07-09-2010, 18:52
People that are against the interuption part are for or against the High archmage that dispel his dragon form before receiving attack? He is blocking attack back at him before they occure...

Thats nasty and evil, however I believe this was answered by the casting sequence......I would say the combat sequence cannot be interrupted either

I.E. We all swing in initiative order and resolve combat(combat sequence over)now you can go back to being a chump wizard. Makes sense to me, if someone can't dispel a remains in play in the middle of his opponent casting a spell then it also applies to a combat.

a18no
07-09-2010, 19:45
Thats nasty and evil, however I believe this was answered by the casting sequence......I would say the combat sequence cannot be interrupted either

I.E. We all swing in initiative order and resolve combat(combat sequence over)now you can go back to being a chump wizard. Makes sense to me, if someone can't dispel a remains in play in the middle of his opponent casting a spell then it also applies to a combat.

At least, you are constent in your ruling, could be a pleasure to face you!!

I have no problem with that.

Tarian
07-09-2010, 22:22
It's similar to dispelling Call to Glory right before the guy gets whacked to avoid giving up the VPs. While it *may* (note emphasis on may) be RAW, it's a bit cheeky, and I wouldn't do it personally.