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Ironfather0
27-08-2010, 04:50
Not sure if this is the right place for this but here goes. After putting much though into it i have decided that i will be using the wolves codex the majority of the time for my iron hands but i want to go a step further with having fun with this. I am starting to rewrite the space wolves codex into an iron hands codex. Now i know it won't look as good as a real codex, but it could help by explaining my reasoning for using the space wolf codex for iron hands by changing the names of characters, units, wargear and special rules to better suit them. Anyways, i am interested in hearing other's input on this idea and would love for anyone else to give me any ideas they may have so i can implement them into this project. thanks! happy.gif

PS- i'm avoiding units such as fenrisian wolves, thunderwolves, bloodclaws and any of the other real space wolfy stuff

sorienor
27-08-2010, 06:20
You're not the only one. I'm contemplating IH using Bjorn and termie wolf guard plus gray hunters in drop pods.

Born Again
27-08-2010, 07:22
What exactly IS your reasoning for it? I'd be interested to know and it might help people with giving any advice they have.

Spyros80
27-08-2010, 09:59
Iron Hands follow a similar chapter organization like Space Wolves. They have Clan Companies that are independent like SW (and occasionally fight each other to keep themselves strong and vigilant), they have venerable dreads that occasionally command forces, etc. They also don't have chaplains, but Iron Fathers that combine the roles of chaplain and techmarine, like wolves combine the apothecary and chaplain in the form of Wolf Priests, things like that.

marv335
27-08-2010, 10:45
Space Wolves is a more powerful codex.
I've always felt that C:SM was a far better fit for Iron Hands

ehlijen
27-08-2010, 11:02
Space wolves lack heavy weapons in squads, servo harnesses and Forgemasters (which were more or less added to cater to Iron Hand players).

In all honesty I see Iron Hands better represented by SMs led by a forgemaster and either lysander or Kantor for the stubborn stoicism they are supposed to show on the battlefield.

Whitehorn
27-08-2010, 11:11
I feel Space Wolves is a good choice, but any book could be justified.

Iron Hands revere their Dreadnoughts. Their leaders and ancient heroes.
You could interpret this with Space Marines - field 6 of them with a Forge Master. Maybe Blood Angels.. even more choice. Or, my favourite, Space Wolves because you have Bjorn.

Iron Hands cherish their rare suits of Terminator armour and rather gear their sergeants in them. The only army able to reflect this is Space Wolves, having Wolf Guard attached to Grey Hunter units. However, that screws your tactical choices, as you have only Drop Pods for transport, which means 8 marines + 1 Wolf guard. No 2 assault weapon slots!

For me, it's the two above reasons I do want to use Space Wolves. I'd fall to a Master of the Forge build otherwise.

Born Again
27-08-2010, 11:58
Iron Hands follow a similar chapter organization like Space Wolves. They have Clan Companies that are independent like SW (and occasionally fight each other to keep themselves strong and vigilant), they have venerable dreads that occasionally command forces, etc. They also don't have chaplains, but Iron Fathers that combine the roles of chaplain and techmarine, like wolves combine the apothecary and chaplain in the form of Wolf Priests, things like that.

Good points, and all true, but I feel this:


Space wolves lack heavy weapons in squads, servo harnesses and Forgemasters (which were more or less added to cater to Iron Hand players).

In all honesty I see Iron Hands better represented by SMs led by a forgemaster and either lysander or Kantor for the stubborn stoicism they are supposed to show on the battlefield.

Is a much better outlook on how to field IH. I don't really see much of a fit for them in the SW book.

Shadowmancer
27-08-2010, 12:21
I would say pick the Space Wolves Codex if you are going to play a fluffy foot Iron Hands army as that would allow for the Wolf Guard Terminators being in the squads as Veteran Sergeant.

Mech based Iron Hands I would suggest going straight for the standard Space Marine Codex.

marv335
27-08-2010, 13:15
C:SM vs C:SW

C:SM
Master of the Forge,
Thunderfire cannon,
Units of Servitors,
Ironclad Dreadnaughts,
Heavy Weapons in squads.

C:SW
Bjorn the fell handed,
Terminators leading squads (Wolf Guard).

There is far more IH themed stuff in C:SM

ehlijen
27-08-2010, 13:39
C:SM vs C:SW

C:SM
Master of the Forge,
Thunderfire cannon,
Units of Servitors,
Ironclad Dreadnaughts,
Heavy Weapons in squads.

C:SW
Bjorn the fell handed,
Terminators leading squads (Wolf Guard).

There is far more IH themed stuff in C:SM

Spacea wolves actually get Servitor units as well. They just don't get to have their Iron priests leave them (not that that'd be a great idea anyway, what with the mindlock rule).

Raven1
27-08-2010, 14:03
Marv is right. c:sm is a better choice, then using the c:sw. I get the feeling he is trying to get support to use the space wolf codex because he thinks its better because its newer.

Ofcourse to the op, you can do whatever you want its your money, and your game. I wouldn't play against you as because i don't like your them as long as it'd wysiwyg.

I do not like the current trend of can I use x chapter (warband) as blood angels (space wolf) because it fits my theme better (i don't want to use c:sm or c:csm, because c:blood angels and space wolves are newer and therefore better.

Whitehorn
27-08-2010, 14:19
Marv is right. c:sm is a better choice, then using the c:sw. I get the feeling he is trying to get support to use the space wolf codex because he thinks its better because its newer.

By your logic, he'd be fielding a Blood Angels army.

sigur
27-08-2010, 14:22
Space Wolves is a more powerful codex.
I've always felt that C:SM was a far better fit for Iron Hands

Just like for pretty much any chapter that isn't Space Wolves I suppose. :)

Raven1
27-08-2010, 16:11
By your logic, he'd be fielding a Blood Angels army.

Newer not newest, plus i meant recent publication, as opposed to codex: space marines which has older and the coolness has worn off.

Ironfather0
27-08-2010, 16:13
alright let me reiterate, i'm not trying to decide between which codex i'm going to use. I've already decided on the space wolf book. And i do understand that certain things in the wolf book don't make sense but that's why i'm writing an iron hands version of the space wolves codex. To help explain why certain stuff would be used. And i'll say this right now i'm not using the wolf codex because it is newer, i'm using it because there are certain aspects of it that fit better with IH and that i believe the wolf codex is more fun to use and am quite frankly bored with the C:SM. So instead of arguing which is better lets just discuss how certain things can be represented as iron hands. For example, mark of the wulfen for me is going to be represented as a highly bionicized marine.

Whitehorn
27-08-2010, 16:28
Are you just renaming things or actually changing the rules of the codex?

You can forgive people for inputting their opinion on the most suitable codex (or in many cases, the proxy-hater dribble) as you imply the former. Obviously, you've now heard the arguments for and against and stuck by your decision.

For names, you have a handy resource here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Hands

Tell us some more ideas!

Ironfather0
27-08-2010, 16:39
I'm only changing the name of things. For example here is my count as logan grimnar represented in the form of an iron father:

Special rules: And they shall know no fear, counter-attack, eternal warrior, independent character, stubborn

Litanies of battle: Iron-fathers perform the role as a chaplain in addition to the roles of a techmarine. Once per game, Leonis can bellow a litany to inspire his men. For the rest of the player turn all friendly modelís within 18Ē get +1 attack.

Inspiring leader: Iron father Leonis is such a famous and respected figure amongst the iron hands that any squad he leads will fight even harder to accomplish his goals. You may choose one of the following special rules at the beginning of each turn: Fearless, tank hunters, relentless, preferred enemy. Leonis and any unit he is with have that rule for the duration of that player turn.

Wargear:
Battle axe and servo-arm: Iron father Leonis Ticarius, like all iron fatherís is equipped with an axe and servo-arm. Leonis crafted his own battle axe that was forged a bit heftier than others. Also in his many years of service Leonis has mastered the art of combat with his servo-arm. Leonis may decide to attack with his axe, which is a +1S power weapons, or use his servo arm, which is treated like a power fist. Leonis may decide to allocate his attacks between these two modes.

∑ Terminator armor
∑ Mechanicus protective: Grants a 4+ invulnerable save
∑ Psychic resistant armor- If a model with this is affected by an enemy psychic power, roll a d6. On a 5+ that power is nullified.
∑ Skilled Combatant- Always hits on 3+ in close combat regardless of WS.

now i'm still trying to come up with better names for some stuff but this is the jist of what i'm doing

TheMav80
27-08-2010, 17:44
There is another thread on this around here from not too long ago. I'll throw my 2 cents in again.

Aside from the Master of the Forge in Codex Space Marines, nothing in there works like the Iron Hands are supposed to.

The big things about the Iron Hands are:
*Taking Dreads as a HQ choice. They revere them...they DON'T have a lot of them
*They do not field full squads of Terminators. The sergeants of tactical squads are given the suits instead.
*Close ties with the Mechanicus

Space Wolves handles the first two perfectly. You can't even approximate those with any other Codex. As for the third, the Space Wolves still have techmarines. They are Iron Priests and work perfect. Saga of the Iron Wolf even makes them better at their job than a regular Techmarine.

zendral
27-08-2010, 17:59
I too am struggling on which book to use. And out of all the fluff I have read(including the iron hands novel) I have to agree with TheMav80. They don't necessarily have a lot of dreads, the ones they do are awesome and are known to lead, which bjorn can.

The only thing 2 things that grind my gears is there is no matter which book you use, servo-harness or not, you still can't get a real iron father. That and with the space wolf codex, if you were hoping to field lots of dreads then no go buddy. Bjorn for hq, iron-priest and wolf guard for elites, that only leaves 1 more slot for 1 more dread, which isn't that big of a deal.

The only rule I would love to break is if I could slap the 2 chaplian special rules + rosarius on a techmarine for x amount of pts. Would that be such a big deal?

Edit: Another idea. In most games I suspect players won't be fielding more than 3 tactical squads. If you really wanted another dread, drop the wolf guard and take advantage of the 4 hq thing. Put 2-3 wolf guard battle leaders in termi armour and have them lead squads.

Ironfather0
27-08-2010, 20:18
Special rules section of my codex

Acute Senses: Iron hands are one of the most tech-savvy chapters of space marines and employ various forms of bionics. As such iron hands ability to target enemies in even the darkest of nights is astounding. All iron hands have the acute senses ability.

Counter-attack: The iron hands believe that the best defense is a good offense and will meet a charge head on rather than take it. To represent this all iron hands have the counter attack special rule.

Ronin_eX
28-08-2010, 00:22
Nice thing about the SW codex is it works well for some of the wonkier chapters. I ended up doing a more Arthurian-style Dark Angels with them (could do better knightly units with the whole legendary hero shtick).

As for renaming that was something I certainly got into and here are some possibilities for IHs. Also remember, don't be afraid of divorcing your ideas for the IHs from GW canon. No one ever said a named chapter couldn't be tinkered with. It is your army, go nuts with it and have fun.

The List:

Frost Blade/Frost Axe -> Omnisian Axe/Blade

Wolf Claws -> Mechalus Claws (woot made up names!)

Runic Armour -> Aegis Suit (standard name for armour with wards in it, or the wards themselves)

Belt of Russ/Wolf Amulet -> Iron Bulwark (IH version of the Iron Halo, takes form of an Iron Hand emblem)

Chooser of the Slain -> Perceptor Servitor

Fenrisian Wolf/Cyberwolf -> Not a lot of good fits here unfortunately, though maybe eschewing their mounted nature entirely and having them be heavily augmented troops or even mini-dreadnoughts would be an interesting twist instead. Either that or leave them out entirely, that works too.

Fang of Morkai -> Cyber-conditioning/Iron Will (no longer a piece of wargear but a special rule instead basically).

Runic Staff -> Hmm, no really good renaming options for this one maybe split its description into being a psychic hood and a force weapon instead.

Wolf Tail Talisman -> Mind Fortress (meant to represent the power mechanicus characters get later on in Dark Heresy; they are basically too machinelike to be fully affected by psychic powers)

Wolftooth Necklace -> Chem Implants (combat drugs baby!)

Wolf Standard -> Clan Company Standard

Saga of the Wolfkin -> No easy way of making this fit so I'd just leave it out and not take thunderwolves or fenrisian wolves.

Saga of the Bear -> Rite of Setesh (basically the full cyberization of a living subject; usually done to a Magos I can see a few Ironhands getting that treatment)

Saga of Majesty -> I'd restrict this to use on dreadnoughts and call it Knowledge of the Ancients or something along those lines.

Saga of the Hunter -> Doesn't fit terribly well, leave it out.

Saga of the Warrior Born -> Mechandrite Mastery (represents lashing out with 6-8 limbs simultaneously; a nice visual)

Saga of the Beastslayer -> No ideas for this one but it could potentially fit.

Saga of the Iron Wolf -> Vehicle Interface Circuits

Wolf Lord -> Iron-Commander
Rune Priest -> Iron Shaman (again, may as well come up with fun names :D)
Wolf Priest -> Don't use these or make them combat-oriented Iron Fathers
Wolf Guard Battle Leader -> Warleader

Wolf Guard -> Veteran Crusade Squad
Iron Priest -> Iron Father
Wolf Scout Pack -> Novitiate Infiltration Squad
Lone Wolf -> Hmm, dunno on this one

Grey Hunter Squad -> Bastion Crusade Squad
Bloodclaw Pack -> Assail Crusade Squad

Thunderwolf Cav -> Either go over the top or leave 'em alone
Swiftclaw Bike Pack -> Assail Bike Squad
Skyclaw Assault Pack -> Assail Assault Squad
Fenrisian Wolf Pack -> Leave them out

Long Fangs Pack -> Fortress Veteran Squad

Take or leave whatever you like/don't like. I tried to hew to the fluff where possible but where it wasn't I took liberties because it isn't like the Iron Hands are so well documented that we can inject a bit of our own creativity into them.

Hope you have fun with them. :D

Ironfather0
30-08-2010, 21:29
Thats exacty the kind of input i was looking for thanks! I looked over your list and especially like naming frost blades omnissiah axe. I actually named the belt of russ just an iron halo or in the case of my iron-fathers a mechanicus protectiva. I'll be working on my count as codex again soon so i will post some of it when i get a chance.

Ronin_eX
31-08-2010, 18:29
Good luck with that, still need to finish my Dark Angels adaptation of the SW list myself and this thread helped me get interested again. :D

Freak Ona Leash
31-08-2010, 19:37
Eh, I've never had a problem with counts-as. Just make it clear which units are which to your opponent. I would shy away from Blood Claws, using mainly Grey Hunters and Long Fangs in drop pods or rhinos. Bjorn obviously makes sense as a Dreadnought Clan Commander. Iron Priests make great Iron-Fathers.

I've always thought the Iron Hands were probably the least "Codex" of all the Codex: SM chapters, more so than the Dark Angels and possibly the Blood Angels as well. I wouldn't advocate for a separate codex for them however, as the SW one just works too well ;)

Latro_
31-08-2010, 20:06
You can justify using most codex's if you put your mind to it. I think re-writing the unit entry names etc is pretty redundant and a waste of time. You'd be better off spending the time writing actual background for your army.

Freak Ona Leash
31-08-2010, 21:01
You can justify using most codex's if you put your mind to it. I think re-writing the unit entry names etc is pretty redundant and a waste of time. You'd be better off spending the time writing actual background for your army.

This I agree with. Just say, for example: "Squad Primus here counts-as Grey Hunters." No need to go into a long-winded explanation of "This is Squad Primus, they are my Iron Hands squad of Iron Brothers with an Iron-Sergeant who has an Iron-Fist. They count as Grey Hunters, by the way." ;)

I can see why someone who has had bad experience with counts-as would look down at this but I sincerely believe that Games Workshop games would benefit if more people took the time to look at the background and decide for themselves on which Codex they bought should represent the models they also bought for a game that they are playing with you rather than purely against you.

I'm not saying this at anyone in particular mind you, I've just heard a lot of bad attitudes towards "counts-as" and similar concepts. Granted, sometimes it is warranted (Oi, I wants to play my Blue Marines as Angry Red Marines 'cause dere roolz is best, hur hur hur!) but usually I feel that the person trying out the "counts'as" army isn't doing it to be cheesy/beardy but rather because they genuinely want to make a flavorful list that conforms to their concept of the background.

Ironfather0
03-09-2010, 08:08
good luck on your dark angels project too :D. I also agree with ya freak that the wolf codex does work pretty well for the iron hands. But as far as the whole rewrite thing goes...i'm still doing it. Its a fun project thing i think and i would like to when i go to tournaments to have the book displayed with my army so people could possibly see the work and thought that i put into my count-as. although for obvious reason i would still need to buy the actualy copy of the space wolves codex.

BTW sorry for the late response last time i checked i didn't see any responses and thought the topic got buried several pages later..

Bonzai
03-09-2010, 08:45
I've contimplated doing Iron Hands as regular SMs, but with the caveot of a special HQ, that gave chapter tactics (relentless). This representing thier bionic enhancements, and making them a chapter that focuses more on hvy weapons, giving it a unique niche among the space marine chapters in 5th edition.

Ironfather0
03-09-2010, 16:43
the nice thing about iron hands is that i believe both SM and SW codex can work fine in representing them it just depends on what aspect you want to focus on

Zweischneid
03-09-2010, 16:47
I've contimplated doing Iron Hands as regular SMs, but with the caveot of a special HQ, that gave chapter tactics (relentless). This representing thier bionic enhancements, and making them a chapter that focuses more on hvy weapons, giving it a unique niche among the space marine chapters in 5th edition.

Probably better off with Slow and Purposeful.

Relentless would have the strange side-effect of making the army more "assaulty" because you could rapid-fire bolters and than assault. Not quite unlike "counter-attack" as the strange side-effect" of making Space Wolves more passive/defensive, because you lose the "need" to charge.

Also, bionics in 4th edition just gave a 6++ save I belive, not relentless or some such.

Something less "invasive" perhaps would be a near-copy of Pedro but let him make Devastators scoring, instead of Sternguard.

That said, if you are 100% set on "relentless" being the "Iron Hands" schtick, you can use the Blood Angel Codex to make Iron Hands. Death Company after all are all Relentless!!