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frapermax
27-08-2010, 11:09
Why not let every player veto 1 spell from each lore chosen by his opponent?
This could either happen before rolling spells, or after. In the second case the player can choose another spell freely as compensation.
That way low-initiative armies could veto Purple Sun or Pit of Shades when their opponent has those lores, low Strength armies could veto Dweller's below etc...
This would limit the amount of silly one trick games.

Any opinions are welcome

FPM

EndlessBug
27-08-2010, 11:28
and it will also allow players to stop some effective ways of dealing with nasty nasty units that are usually difficult to deal with, I.e. Steam Tanks. Veto purple sun and it's practically unkillable again. My Chaos warriors would just get mauled by it with no way for me to deal.

papabearshane
27-08-2010, 11:40
There are plenty of other ways of dealing with nasty spells, Hunt down and kill the mages in the game befor they have a chance to use them.....................

Thats what Fastcav and Chariots are for example...........

As far as a Veto what about all those other armys who will be loosing there favorit none auto win spell like my Waaagh! or Gork ill Fix it for O&Gs?

Id much rather have a bit of fun and kill a few mages then worry about that one uber spell that might or might not be a game changer............

If you dont like the Spell Dont make it hurt as much when you get hit by it. Lesson the points costs throughout your army and just take more mid to low points units...........

These spells your talking about are amazing at Crushing Hords in the first or second round so instead of haveing 1 hord why not 4 smaller units say of 25 or so that do almost the same but with more tactics...............

Im not trying to tell you these spells are ok..........I hate them, I just work things out in games instead of trying to make rules up on the fly.............If your gaming group agrees with you then just house rules them.

Kamenwati
27-08-2010, 11:44
I think a better solution is to remove the double 6's= auto cast. I think a better mechanic would have double sixes still be Irresistible Force/Miscast but you still have to make the target number to cast it. Otherwise it still Miscasts but isn't successfully cast. This also solves the Power Scroll madness as well.

Loopstah
27-08-2010, 11:49
How about allowing players to veto cannons if they are using large multi-wound monsters, or hordes units if they are using MSU, or armour saves better than 3+ if they only have str3 in their army, or units with leadership more than 7 if they have a low ld army.

WarmbloodedLizard
27-08-2010, 12:04
just allow ward and regen saves. that will already do a lot to stop the madness. other than that, The Gay Son of Serious should probably be changed so that it is always wounds on a 4+ (no I test), only inflicting 1 wound instead of killing outright.

NecronBob
27-08-2010, 12:11
The uber-spells are the counters to certain types of unit. The drawback to setting up a death star of doom is that someone might slap Final Transmutation on it. In the games I have played and seen, the uber-spells have been no more effective than shooting or a tooled up combat unit over the course of a game. The dispel dice are normally so close to the casting dice that it's nigh impossible to get them off. In my experience, they are fine.

narrativium
27-08-2010, 12:16
There was a nice suggestion I saw elsewhere, which was that a double 1 automatically fails, overriding Irresistible Force. It would have to be a little more complex than that - I think you'd still have to determine whether it would otherwise have been cast, so you know if your wizard's concentration ended - but it's fairly elegant.

I don't plan on using it, though. I've not had any major problems against the 'horrific spells' yet - for context, the games I faced them in involved my 1500 point Ogre army, which has 21 models in it - Purple Sun killed eight Ogres in one go, including the Butcher, and I achieved a draw; Dwellers killed my Tyrant and BSB in another game, and that swung the game from a win to a loss, but it's not a typical result and any break test could've done the same.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
27-08-2010, 12:18
How about enjoying the game, the models and all the rest, without looking for quick fixes :)

I don't mind the spells, they're fearsome, but they're what fantasy is all about, and more interesting than the previous editions magic.

Also there are a bunch of spells that can be really decisive on the game beyond dwellers below and the purple sun. +2T or extra attacks with ASF can sway a cc from a certain win to a horrible loss – and with a lot less risk.

I like the new spells, there are bunch of things that aren't particularly finetuned such as scrolls, the balance of IF and Miscasts etc., some armies access to heaps of PD etc. etc. But the lores themselves are fine :)

Enigmatik1
27-08-2010, 13:16
For the life of me I don't know why they didn't allow ward saves derived from Magic Resistance against these test or die spells. Since everyone now has access to some modicum of MR, you could at least offer your vulnerable units (i.e. Saurus vs. Purple Sun of Lame) some sort of saving throw.

Von Wibble
27-08-2010, 13:21
Why not let every player veto 1 spell from each lore chosen by his opponent?
This could either happen before rolling spells, or after. In the second case the player can choose another spell freely as compensation.
That way low-initiative armies could veto Purple Sun or Pit of Shades when their opponent has those lores, low Strength armies could veto Dweller's below etc...
This would limit the amount of silly one trick games.

Any opinions are welcome

FPM

Or a simpler idea - just ban the power scroll. This seems to be more the problem than the spells themselves, which, although powerful, are not that unbalanced. Its only when you can guarantee casting them (ie power scroll) that they become too good.

Look at dwellers below for example. It doesn't particularly do a lot of damage against a lot of units. Killing a third of an enemy unit of Chaos Warrios for example is something that can be done just as easily with a decent shooting phase, unless said unit has a ridiculous number of models, in which case it serves him right. Dwellers below is at its most powerful against S3 models with high points cost - ie elite elves. But most S based magic missiles are also rather good against them - 2 castings of a 2d6 S4 hits spell (roughly haf the power cost accounting for boni to cast) kill about 9 swordmasters, whilst Dwellers Below only manages this if the unit is pretty much at full strength (not many people take units of above 20 swordmasters).

Purple Sun meanwhile - rips apart lizardmen (good luck casting it without any 6s from becalming cogitation) and dwarfs, but otoh the rest of the death lore isn't that great against dwarfs, and Psun doesn't do anything to a dwarf army (prepared for it with smart deployment) that a dwarf shooting phase can't do to you in turn. Against other armies its unreliability and high casting value make up for its power imo - it isn't great against elves for example.

As I tend to use lore of shadows myself I could also point out that my lore has 3 spells you'd probably want to veto -the -D3S, -D3T and Ld=S spells (pit of shades scatters so I don't rate it) - these all synergise very effectively with the rest of your army and for me are far nastier propositions.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
27-08-2010, 14:01
For the life of me I don't know why they didn't allow ward saves derived from Magic Resistance against these test or die spells. Since everyone now has access to some modicum of MR, you could at least offer your vulnerable units (i.e. Saurus vs. Purple Sun of Lame) some sort of saving throw.

Cause this would allow you to build impregnable death stars. That simple :)

Teclics
27-08-2010, 14:03
Worst. Idea. Ever.

EDIT: Sorry for being a little premature here. Now I think it is a superb idea, if you let your opponent pick one unit you can't use. Let's say Hydra's or Mauraders or Trebuchets or Salamanders or ... As a compensation you can just pick another unit.

Enigmatik1
27-08-2010, 14:05
Cause this would allow you to build impregnable death stars. That simple :)

I suppose...it just seems odd to me that Magic Resistance actually offers very little actual resistance to so many spells.

Besides, I don't know what this deathstar is you speak of...I sure as hell can't field any. :p

loveless
27-08-2010, 14:10
Besides, I don't know what this deathstar is you speak of...I sure as hell can't field any. :p

That's not a moon...


-------


I rarely find "Just don't do it" or "House rule it away" to be a decent answer to problems that gamers perceive. I suppose I'm overly optimistic, but I'm confident that given enough practice and tactical application, you should be able to overcome whatever your opponent is throwing at you.

Mind you, those damnable cubes we have to throw around never seem to agree when I try something different...

theunwantedbeing
27-08-2010, 14:17
Generally it's just a case of moderation.

You let the guy your facing know that his choice of list just wasn't fun for you to face and his choice of spells wasnt fun either.
If he's a reasonable chap he'll quit taking the unenjoyable stuff against you, if he isnt you can either quit playing against him or alter your list to be able to either take it on the chin or deal with it some other way.

I faced 3 Mortars, a Cannon, a Hellstorm and a Volley gun in my last game and having all that raining mostly indirect highly accurate fiery death on my head while having engineer's near them to prevent things going badly for him wasn't overly enjoyable.

Thankfully we played a breakthrough game and he was unable to make much use of the hills as the deplyment zone barely covered them to really press his advantage.

Also I got off a 12 dice large purple sun the maximum distance in the turn after winning the game :)
Didn't do all that much damage really despite it being a 4+ to kill for everything it hit.
Would have been filthy against lizardmen or dwarves but then he'de of had a scroll for it as I didn't get a double 6, or enough dispel dice to stop it.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
27-08-2010, 14:21
I suppose...it just seems odd to me that Magic Resistance actually offers very little actual resistance to so many spells.

I agree MR is sort of :p this edition, but unlike the previous edition the rules for it are pretty precise.


Besides, I don't know what this deathstar is you speak of...I sure as hell can't field any. :p

Its a part of the WIP Warhammer Advanced 2.0 rules filled with extra rules on formations, add-on rules to negate steadfast, and rules to make 'calavatory' rule the battlefield once again :p

Spiney Norman
27-08-2010, 14:41
Why not let every player veto 1 spell from each lore chosen by his opponent?
This could either happen before rolling spells, or after. In the second case the player can choose another spell freely as compensation.
That way low-initiative armies could veto Purple Sun or Pit of Shades when their opponent has those lores, low Strength armies could veto Dweller's below etc...
This would limit the amount of silly one trick games.

Any opinions are welcome

FPM

Lol, its an innovative solution, but really there is only one nasty spell in any given lore, a function like you describe would be totally pointless.

That said Purple sun and dwellers below are the worst things about 8th Edition, but I guess it just redresses the balance against things like infernal gateway and the 13th spell. Now EVERYONE has a game-breaking spell! Well, unless you're Orcs and Goblins, Ogres, or Tomb Kings.

frapermax
27-08-2010, 14:45
Wow, I didn't expect so many negative reactions. It was just an idea anyway.
For the record, I don't build deathstars. But since we stay away from the uberspells in our friendly games, I thought other people had the same idea.
I think you cannot use Purple sun against dwarfs, orcs or ogres and call yourself a general. People who boast winning games like that, might be better off playing computer games. Why invite an opponent to just blast his army away?
Moderation comes natural to (hopefully) most of us, but when you take your beloved army to a tournament it might not be cool to be blasted away in 2 turns because of a bad matchup...
See is it as some kind of comp for situations like tournaments, if you like.
If you don't like the idea, no problem, it's just that, an idea.

Enigmatik1
27-08-2010, 14:51
I agree MR is sort of :p this edition, but unlike the previous edition the rules for it are pretty precise.

Very true. I come from the D&D school of thought, where Magic Resistance worked against all spells (both benign and malevolent). Old habits die hard.




Its a part of the WIP Warhammer Advanced 2.0 rules filled with extra rules on formations, add-on rules to negate steadfast, and rules to make 'calavatory' rule the battlefield once again :p

HAHA! I'll pass on those "advanced" rules then. None of them do much for me anyway.


Lol, its an innovative solution, but really there is only one nasty spell in any given lore, a function like you describe would be totally pointless.

That said Purple sun and dwellers below are the worst things about 8th Edition, but I guess it just redresses the balance against things like infernal gateway and the 13th spell. Now EVERYONE has a game-breaking spell! Well, unless you're Orcs and Goblins, Ogres, or Tomb Kings.

Ironically enough, don't you run all three of those armies? :D

Edit: For my part, whenever I run the Dunce Cap on one of my Kings, I avoid spells like Dwellers and Purple Sun like the plague. After my first experience with the Lore of Death (and surprisingly, it was overwhelmingly in my favor and unfun for us both), I've been scarred. Give me the hexes and augmentations anyday.

Spiney Norman
27-08-2010, 14:53
Wow, I didn't expect so many negative reactions. It was just an idea anyway.
For the record, I don't build deathstars. But since we stay away from the uberspells in our friendly games, I thought other people had the same idea.
I think you cannot use Purple sun against dwarfs, orcs or ogres and call yourself a general. People who boast winning games like that, might be better off playing computer games. Why invite an opponent to just blast his army away?
Moderation comes natural to (hopefully) most of us, but when you take your beloved army to a tournament it might not be cool to be blasted away in 2 turns because of a bad matchup...
See is it as some kind of comp for situations like tournaments, if you like.
If you don't like the idea, no problem, it's just that, an idea.

I think its just down to the environment that you play in to be honest. I played a few games with my Lizardmen and the Life lore slann is just abusive, I settled on the lore of light, which is actually very good fun, although less powerful.

I generally use the lore of metal on my Empire wizard as its similarly quite moderate and doesn't contain anything on the level of dwellers/Purple sun/transformation of Kadon.

Leth Shyish'phak
27-08-2010, 15:18
After having my Tzeentch herald bsb and half a unit of Horrors killed by an irresistible Dwellers Below before they got to do anything, with absolutely nothing I could do to stop it, my herald will still take the lore of life but I'm never going to cast Dwellers, it just isn't fun.

I also think I'll be leaving my Empire army at home for a long time, as I found out yesterday just how boring it is to face a gunline in 8th edition.



With "uberspells", the only ones I really have a problem with are Dwellers Below and the 13th spell. I do have armies, Lizardmen for example, which have very low Initiative and can be wrecked by Purple Sun/Pit of Shades, but they don't bother me so much, neither does Infernal Gateway, because those spells all have things that can go wrong with them - scatter, not enough range, 2 S2 hits, etc. and they are very unlikely to be able to take out important characters. With Dwellers and the 13th, all it takes is a double 6 and you're probably screwed.

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 15:21
Here's my idea for crippling not just big spells, but all magic! What do you guys think? It might seem a little harsh, but I think they're great ideas.

1. Miscasting almost always kills your caster, makes you lose wizard levels, or makes you lose power dice.
2. Each spell can not be known by more than one wizard!
3. Not only should we make the Power Dice cap 12 (even including items that give Power Dice), but we should also make it to where no matter what army you're playing, and no matter how they built their army, they'll have a good amount of dispel. We'll call it... ah! "Winds of Magic." There we go!
4. HAHA! Let's make it to where people have to cast bound spells at their casting cost! That way people get somewhat penalized for having more powerful bound spells that cost more in the first place! Brilliant.
5. If your wizard fails at casting a spell just once during your Magic phase, he can't attempt to cast again for the rest of the phase.
6. Let's make MR add ward saves to stuff, that way even if we cast with Irresistible Force, they'll still have a really good chance to live!

Does all that sound kosher? Now we can add big, juicy spells so atleast they have something to look forward to.

All the above being said, I think the magic rules are almost completely fair in 8th Edition, but I'm just getting sick of people thinking that these big spells need to be nerfed or comped in any way. I've only played 15 games of 8th Edition so far, but I have yet to play someone who's just been able to get off a sick multitude of spells and destroy my entire army. And that's not just with my Dwarfs, that's with my Daemons as well. If you take just a few decent dispel items, you're good to go even against LM.

Vsurma
27-08-2010, 16:50
I wonder why they took out the double 1,1s = failed cast.

Had they kept that, casting 6 dice spells would be very dangerous, (assuming double 1=miscast)

27% chance of IF with 30% chance of miscast.

I do kind of like the new way where double 1s don't stop your spell, it was always very annoying, but it would have prevented people from casting 6 dice spells all game long which seems to be what is happening now (not that that is bad, just that losing your lv4 is harsh)

The next tournament I am going to has an added rule that allows spells that don't give a LOS roll such as dwellers to take one anyway, if it is passed the unit takes the wounds rather than the character. It changes the unit killer spells like final transmutation and dwellers into actual unit killers rather than character + unit killer.

I think they got it right with final transmutation in that characters die on a 6, that seems fine, doing so on a 4+ with dwellers seems to be the main problem.

Imo Pit and purple sun aren't even that bad, purple sun can hit your own unit or fail to move far enough, pit of shades scatters.

Most of the complaining really seems to come down to dwellers (possible flight + purple sun on armies flank but this one is avoidable)

Lazarian
27-08-2010, 17:23
If nothing else in the game caused that much damage then Id say seriously look at magic however as stated before the same amount of damage happens from an equivalent amount of points in shooting or hand to hand. They made wizards now rather powerful however it just now in line reflects how powerful many other things in the game were already.

Your typical powerscroll craziness costs about the same as a HPA or Hydra. These things have always been considered OTT since their armybooks have come out. Furthermore if you dont have this level of destruction certain deathstar builds suddenly move to the top of the power heap, thus making them the cause of concern. If you cant have an equalizing factor against Tzeentch chosen death stars or whatever else you can field the same argument would crop up over them. The same thing can be said of overstrong shooting phases offered by dwarves and empire. Both of these armies can make your army disappear in short order and are usually just as reliable. Boring isnt a deterrent to everyone who might want to play them.

Magic is great now, but not game winning. In certain cases you can have a random spell wipe out a good deal of work however I would consider this a plus, not a detraction.

Idle Scholar
27-08-2010, 17:33
You 'need' uber spells because the core rules and the army books let you build otherwise unbeatable deathstars.

Peril
27-08-2010, 17:35
Don't change the spell, just get rid of the Power Scroll.

PANZERBUNNY
27-08-2010, 17:58
Wow, I didn't expect so many negative reactions. It was just an idea anyway.
For the record, I don't build deathstars. But since we stay away from the uberspells in our friendly games, I thought other people had the same idea.
I think you cannot use Purple sun against dwarfs, orcs or ogres and call yourself a general. People who boast winning games like that, might be better off playing computer games. Why invite an opponent to just blast his army away?
Moderation comes natural to (hopefully) most of us, but when you take your beloved army to a tournament it might not be cool to be blasted away in 2 turns because of a bad matchup...
See is it as some kind of comp for situations like tournaments, if you like.
If you don't like the idea, no problem, it's just that, an idea.

Gunlines.

kthks.

If someone builds their army around blasting you to death instead of pounding, whats the difference?

You get the same results in the end.

Dead stuff.

Justicar Valius
27-08-2010, 18:02
and it will also allow players to stop some effective ways of dealing with nasty nasty units that are usually difficult to deal with, I.e. Steam Tanks. Veto purple sun and it's practically unkillable again. My Chaos warriors would just get mauled by it with no way for me to deal.

I don't like how it has to be this way but it's true, without the most hated purple sun I'm not really killing one.

Damocles8
27-08-2010, 19:35
I think the number 6 spell from Fire should be a magical vortex as well.....and I'm of the opinion that MR should come into effect against spells that allow no ward saves (as it would work but would only be the effect of MR, no existing ward saves being improved by it or affected by MoT)

The Satyr
27-08-2010, 19:53
How about making the big spells 1 use only. That way it can still turn the tide of battle but not be used over and over to the point of annihilating the opponent outright.

decker_cky
27-08-2010, 20:13
Double 1's remove IF (spell is still cast as normal) and power scroll can't cast the spell without reaching the casting value. Those two changes, without being so severe, would curb the upper casting cost spells and the most common abuses.

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 20:21
I really don't think magic needs any comp at all; the limits are pretty extreme. Only one wizard is going to know that spell; adapt your list to take these wizards down. These spells aren't going to destroy multiple units, just one of your favorite ones. Make sure you have several units that can still get the job done and assume that one of them will be wiped out to Purple Sun or Dwellers.

Maoriboy007
27-08-2010, 20:28
I wonder why they took out the double 1,1s = failed cast.

The risk of taking/using magic has always been on the wizard player, there has to be some sort of reward vs risk, there are plenty of ways to fail. As usual GW have screwed up the balance with "auto-kill" spells which started to appear in the later days of 7th. Always a bad idea.


Imo Pit and purple sun aren't even that bad, purple sun can hit your own unit or fail to move far enough, pit of shades scatters.
Most of the complaining really seems to come down to dwellers (possible flight + purple sun on armies flank but this one is avoidable)

Only elven and Chaos players don't think Purple sun is that bad - it screws everyone else hard. Purple sun also has the benefit of being able to decimate multiple units.


You 'need' uber spells because the core rules and the army books let you build otherwise unbeatable deathstars.

Uber spells also allow you to decimate non-deathstars. Its a bad solution. Steadfast , Horde and Strike Back are the rules meant to fix deathstars, not spells.

Alltaken
27-08-2010, 21:05
Why not let every player veto 1 spell from each lore chosen by his opponent?
This could either happen before rolling spells, or after. In the second case the player can choose another spell freely as compensation.
That way low-initiative armies could veto Purple Sun or Pit of Shades when their opponent has those lores, low Strength armies could veto Dweller's below etc...
This would limit the amount of silly one trick games.

Any opinions are welcome

FPM

My slann loremaster wouldn't be in friendly terms with you, but he happens to be a angry frog most of the time.

The fact that there's a loremaster "skill" rules this out, and well the fact that I just might want that spell you took of

Enigmatik1
27-08-2010, 21:15
Uber spells also allow you to decimate non-deathstars. Its a bad solution. Steadfast , Horde and Strike Back are the rules meant to fix deathstars, not spells.

Maybe someone's found the invincible, meat-grinder skeleton deathstar that you nor I had the foresight to field? :shifty:

TheKingInYellow
27-08-2010, 21:29
Uber spells also allow you to decimate non-deathstars. Its a bad solution. Steadfast , Horde and Strike Back are the rules meant to fix deathstars, not spells.

Actually, Steadfast, Horde and Step Up would make deathstars absolutely unbeatable if you didn't have a magic or shooting answer to them.

DaemonReign
27-08-2010, 21:39
Why not let every player veto 1 spell from each lore chosen by his opponent?
This could either happen before rolling spells, or after. In the second case the player can choose another spell freely as compensation.
That way low-initiative armies could veto Purple Sun or Pit of Shades when their opponent has those lores, low Strength armies could veto Dweller's below etc...
This would limit the amount of silly one trick games.

Any opinions are welcome

FPM

Well this would be one way of doing it. I can't say I like the idea though. It makes things too personal somehow.

My biggest problem with the magic phase isn't the actual super-killy spells but rather the unscalable amount of dice used.

My idea, which I hope we will implement in my group, is that we're gonna scale the dice up a bit from 3k (since we normally play between 2 and 6k games) and in order to avoid total armageddon in the magic phase we're gonna house-rule that "irrestable dispel" is allowed on a double 6 (this will equate the "fistfulls of dice on purple suns" that will otherwise commence if you've suddenly got <24 PD's to play around with).

Vetoing certain spells is a very square idea somehow.. You might as well start vetoing certain units (like the stank for example) or why not veto certain item-combos..(?)

I my mind it's better to tune the entire system to a way that's more fun to play (like for example my above example).

Idle Scholar
27-08-2010, 22:12
If someone builds their army around blasting you to death instead of pounding, whats the difference?

I personally have the same issue with gunlines as I do with magic, you as the player being shot don't have a lot of influence on the shooting round. It's either there, pointed at you and in range or it isn't.

Because of this lack of interactivity I find gunlines and overly effective magic boring to play.


Uber spells also allow you to decimate non-deathstars. Its a bad solution.

I absolutely agree with this first bit, but I don't see a solution without changing the core rules because:


Steadfast, Horde and Step Up would make deathstars absolutely unbeatable if you didn't have a magic or shooting answer to them.

Also you forgot 'make way', 'combat re-forms' and the new BSB rules :p

So at the minute it's a case of making sure you have enough units to weather the storm of fire or magic and possibly comping a few things like 10 war machine armies or the power scroll.

Kudzu
28-08-2010, 03:38
Here's my idea for crippling not just big spells, but all magic! What do you guys think? It might seem a little harsh, but I think they're great ideas.

1. Miscasting almost always kills your caster, makes you lose wizard levels, or makes you lose power dice.
2. Each spell can not be known by more than one wizard!
3. Not only should we make the Power Dice cap 12 (even including items that give Power Dice), but we should also make it to where no matter what army you're playing, and no matter how they built their army, they'll have a good amount of dispel. We'll call it... ah! "Winds of Magic." There we go!
4. HAHA! Let's make it to where people have to cast bound spells at their casting cost! That way people get somewhat penalized for having more powerful bound spells that cost more in the first place! Brilliant.
5. If your wizard fails at casting a spell just once during your Magic phase, he can't attempt to cast again for the rest of the phase.
6. Let's make MR add ward saves to stuff, that way even if we cast with Irresistible Force, they'll still have a really good chance to live!

Does all that sound kosher? Now we can add big, juicy spells so atleast they have something to look forward to.

All the above being said, I think the magic rules are almost completely fair in 8th Edition, but I'm just getting sick of people thinking that these big spells need to be nerfed or comped in any way. I've only played 15 games of 8th Edition so far, but I have yet to play someone who's just been able to get off a sick multitude of spells and destroy my entire army. And that's not just with my Dwarfs, that's with my Daemons as well. If you take just a few decent dispel items, you're good to go even against LM.

7. You pick your lore at army creation, no more "Well, I'm playing against undead so I'll take Light".

SideshowLucifer
28-08-2010, 05:19
I play Vamps and I don't think the spells are too horrible. Haven't had the "pleasure" of Dwellers eating a unit yet, but honestly, I build mya rmy t be redundant to compensate. I think the problem is people just don't want to change how they are playing to compensate and want the rules to bend to how they are playing.

WarmbloodedLizard
28-08-2010, 14:06
7. You pick your lore at army creation, no more "Well, I'm playing against undead so I'll take Light".

I find that one of the better changes to the magic phase. :)

DaemonReign
28-08-2010, 15:30
Personally I think (as stated here before) that making the dice-cap scale a bit depending on the size of the battle, together with allowing Irrestistable Force to be dispelled with a "double 6" would be enough to make a more dynamic and insteresting phase.

Getting more detailed than that is gonna be very difficult without someone being left out unfairly.