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Venerable_Bede
29-08-2010, 01:56
In my game today a cannon fired grapeshot at a unit of Marauder horsemen accompanied by the Chaos General on horse.

I rolled a 10 on the artillery dice thus getting more wounds than models in the unit.

We figured that since the unit had five or models in it, none could be allocated on the character.

Was that correct?

solkan
29-08-2010, 04:05
It's one of the holes in the rules at the moment: Can you wound something you didn't hit?

The rules include a statement that the character and the unit are treated as a single combined unit "for all rules purposes" except for the exception listed on page 99 and 100. And on pages 93-95 the rules for the Command Group provides an example of models in the unit which can indeed be killed without being directly attacked, the unit champion.

And the big rule is the wound allocation rules which specify that wounded models are removed from the unit. Keep in mind that in 8th edition the models that are presumably being hit in close combat (the ones in front) aren't even the models removed from the unit.

So you can't directly hit and allocate wounds to the character, but the character could still be killed by overflow from the unit.

Disclaimer: This opinion may be the minority opinion. But the fact is that there is no rule preventing the character's wounds from being removed as a member of the unit suffering wounds.

Venerable_Bede
29-08-2010, 12:05
It's one of the holes in the rules at the moment: Can you wound something you didn't hit?

The rules include a statement that the character and the unit are treated as a single combined unit "for all rules purposes" except for the exception listed on page 99 and 100. And on pages 93-95 the rules for the Command Group provides an example of models in the unit which can indeed be killed without being directly attacked, the unit champion.

And the big rule is the wound allocation rules which specify that wounded models are removed from the unit. Keep in mind that in 8th edition the models that are presumably being hit in close combat (the ones in front) aren't even the models removed from the unit.

So you can't directly hit and allocate wounds to the character, but the character could still be killed by overflow from the unit.

Disclaimer: This opinion may be the minority opinion. But the fact is that there is no rule preventing the character's wounds from being removed as a member of the unit suffering wounds.

But doesn't the section on Combined Units (i.e. units with a character in them) say that shooting attacks on the unit do not affect the character if the unit has 5 or more models?

I suppose I'm answering my own question, but we thought it odd that the unit could suffer 10 unsaved wounds, doubling the number of models in the unit (it was a five man unit) and the character would be left unscathed.

(by the way, I had two cannon and used the second one to kill the Chaos General with a cannon ball--since he was now a lone target--so he got his in the end anyway!)

Korraz
29-08-2010, 12:48
You can never hit a character if there are still 5 base minis in the unit. When you have 20 Wounds but only 5 remaining guys and the character...tough luck, the character walks away unscathed. It's like with Bolt Throwers that can never hit a character while other miniatures remain in the same rank.

mariote
29-08-2010, 16:15
and if you have a skaven general with a rat ogre bonebreaker in a unit of warriors (different base size) can you target the general with shoots?

RMacDeezy
31-08-2010, 16:10
no you cannot target him specifically but he will get no LO,S

T10
31-08-2010, 16:41
How can I put this...

If the character is of the same troop type as the unit and the unit contains five or more non-champion rank-and-file models then he can't be hit by regular shooting hits applied to the unit, and he benefits from the "Look Out, Sir!" rule.

In any other situation the owning player needs to distribute the hits evenly among the unit and the character.

E.g.: A unit of 9 spearmen, a champion, an infantry hero and a monstrous cavalry hero - 12 models total. Let's say the unit takes 15 hits. The owning player must assign at least 11 hits to the unit and 1 hit to the monstrous cavalry character. He can choose for the hero to take a second hit, but the remainder is allocated to the unit.

The infantry hero and the champion aren't hit, at least not directly. The champion can still end up getting killed: If 13 or 14 hits on the unit cause more than 9 wounds (the number of rank-and-file spearmen) then the excess wounds carry over to the champion. The infantry hero will escape unharmed.

-T10