PDA

View Full Version : So, which armies are good now?



DirtJumper
30-08-2010, 01:34
I've recently gotten the itch to start painting again, but with the project I was working on before 8th (Vampire Counts) getting the nerfhammer, I have been having trouble motivating myself to paint them, as I keep getting the feeling that I will just lose every game I play with them. :cries: I love them to death, but methinks I might have to wait 'till a new book to resume that project.

Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to win every game I play, but I would like to feel like I have a chance to win. I have Bretonnians and Chaos, but have some doubts as to their playability as well. So the question is: What armies do you think are top dog(s) now? What armies are at least competitve, and what armies do you guys think are below average?

Commissar Vaughn
30-08-2010, 01:50
Vampires werent exactly hit hard with the nerfbat...just a gentle tickle really...

Anyway, Chaos seem to be very powerful at the mo, and Bretonnians arent exactly weak.

DirtJumper
30-08-2010, 02:00
How is every single unit in the army getting worse not getting nerfed? I undertstand, obviously, that it is alsways possible to win with any army, but Vamps seem to have taken a much bigger hit from the new rules than any other army. (save perhaps WE) Chaos seems like it could be an interesting choice i guess, dunno how much I like the double Hellcannon lists that most seem to be going for.

As for the bretonnians, it just seems like they would have trouble breaking deathstar horde units that every army seems to be using, although I do love that Trebuchets got a big boost. Most of what I'm saying is just speculation, as I have yet to play a game of 8th, but I'm trying to come back from a break from Warhammer where the main game I played was M:tG, so I guess my competitve side might be affecting my thought process.

freddieyu
30-08-2010, 02:29
I still would recommend you collect the army that gains your interest most with the imagery and look....if you look at the hardboyz thread results you can see that VC's can still compete....even brets can fight, but its not a matter of charging headfirst into the enemy at the first opportunity anymore...

Maoriboy007
30-08-2010, 02:30
Vampires werent exactly hit hard with the nerfbat...just a gentle tickle really...I'm assuming you're joking.

WoC are pretty good, and anything that can field a powerful gunline (dwarves are best).
DE are about as good as they were in 7th - the jury is still to be decided on skaven.

VoodooJanus
30-08-2010, 04:05
Don't forget Lizardmen guys. The double Slaan list is painful to play against.

I'd definitely put Dark Elves up there as well.

I'm not sure about Skaven, but in theory they should be amazing (ld 10 re-rollable leadership so long as they don't get flanked.)

High Elves are very good, but are still hard to play properly.

Lastly, I'd be inclined to put Dwarves on this list as well.

Oh- and Daemons took a hit from last edition. So its not just Vampire Counts. And VC are still very good. A little overpriced, but definitely manageable.

My votes, in order, go like this 1.Dark Elves/Lizardmen/Dwarves/WoC 2. High Elves/Dwarves/Skaven. In all, the overall balance of the system is considerably better.

Braden Campbell
30-08-2010, 04:14
I got absolutely whooped by the Tomb Kings today, loosing 1879 out of 2000 points in six turns. They consistently had more magic than I did dispell dice, often to the point where three or four of their incantaions went unchecked per turn.

Is that a help?

Signius
30-08-2010, 04:27
VC's did take a big hit but they used to be incredibly good. They can still compete just fine. Honestly if you can't find an army that appeals to you above and beyond its ability to win I think you'll find yourself bored again soon, just like with your VC.

Esco Thomson
30-08-2010, 04:42
+1 to Lizardmen and Skaven.

Enigmatik1
30-08-2010, 06:01
I got absolutely whooped by the Tomb Kings today, loosing 1879 out of 2000 points in six turns. They consistently had more magic than I did dispell dice, often to the point where three or four of their incantaions went unchecked per turn.

Is that a help?

What on Earth did you and he field to end up with that result? I smell some Dunce Cap shenanigans...

I wouldn't recommend a VC player jump ship to TK. VC are still better off than we are and will be until we get a new army book. Who cares if the TK player had more dice to cast spells than you had to dispel, without access to the BRB lores and/or flooding the board with shooting and catapults, the TK list as a whole is relatively soft.

I think any army can compete against any other army for the most part. I would just avoid Tomb Kings and Wood Elves as they have more issues to overcome to be competitive than you may find worthwhile to fight against. That's not to say that neither army can be competitive...it's just is it worth the work/stress if you aren't already in b***s deep with one of them?

My gut says to also avoid Beastmen. They seem to be sitting ducks for the abundance of shooting and magic you'll likely be facing from everyone else. But I can't be sure only having had a cursory glance of the army book.

Call me crazy, but if I were in the market for a new army now, it'd be Orcs and Goblins...heavy on the Orcs, light on the Goblins (since everyone runs Goblin armies).

Lord of Divine Slaughter
30-08-2010, 06:20
...deathstar horde units that every army seems to be using,

Every army to rely on these gets whooped in 8th :)

I'll really recommend that you actually start playing the game, instead of just going by hearsay. Second you should realize by now that warhammer is an everchanging game, where power waxes and wanes and the only possible solution to this is to buy a new army, whenever GW releases one.

Dry your eyes and have a cookie :p

Grimmeth
30-08-2010, 09:11
I think it's pretty safe to say that anything bar WE's (And I'd imagine you could manage Wood Elves if you tried hard - but from what I can gather a fair few of the units are now obselete.) can be pretty competitive now.

Vsurma
30-08-2010, 09:43
DE good, they have hydra, do great with lore of shadow, mindrazer on spears etc. have sacrificial dagger and power of darkness.... list goes on.

Lizards have slann with rumination for free dice, cognition to stop enemy magic, can take 2 dispel scrolls if they want, saurus are fine and the lore of life really does a lot for them.

Dwarves and empire have massive amounts of DD and war machines, empire can even cast magic on top, both good. Steam tank now T10!

Skaven have stubborn ld10 slaves that cost 2 points, good war machines that can fire into CC with the slaves, good magic etc.

High elves also have a very good magic phase so can do fine.

WOC, their knights kick almost as much ass as before, warriors are now better, marauders are pretty much the best troop in the game at 5pts for good ws, init, GW etc.
Good magic protection as well.

Ogres are a lot better, not sure if they are great but better than last edition for sure, firsly no one runs dragons/greater demons half as much anymore which was their main weakness, secondly if they do they can actually hit them back now, common magic items really help their characters.

Beasts, WE, Tomb kings and bretts I am not sure about.
TKs seem to have a fairly unstoppable magic phase, but the troops themselves are so weak I am not sure its enough.

Demons are fine but not as great as before, people seem to have stopped playing them around my parts, not a single one at the last tournament I was at that I can remember.

Commissar Vaughn
30-08-2010, 09:53
I'm assuming you're joking.

Not at all, they might not be as powerful as they were, but they are still very powerful. I play Dogs of War and would have given my right arm to have still been that good AFTER the nerf!



Every army to rely on these gets whooped in 8th


True, I am always entertained to find such a unit on the opposite side of the field: It makes it easier to kill the rest of their army and then, when theyve run out of support, hit them from all 4 sides at once with my entire army. There is only one outcome.

bfeijter
30-08-2010, 11:31
bla bla unit of bla STUBBORN infantery cant be beaten!
Everytime i read that (and you read it alot here on warseer) i cant help but thinging that person is just complaining for complaining sake.

Skaven slaves are not stubborn, they are STEADFAST if they outnumber you and that is something verry verry diffrent.

Vsurma
30-08-2010, 11:34
My bad, the amount of times I outnumber 2pt slaves....well

Commissar Vaughn
30-08-2010, 11:54
~you dont need to outnumber them~ Just kill half of them, THEN outnumber them...

Has to be said every horde Ive seen so far has evaporated like snow in midsummer as soon as its flanks are threatened. Or even to a cavalry charge on occasion...

ChrisIronBrow
30-08-2010, 12:09
~you dont need to outnumber them~ Just kill half of them, THEN outnumber them...

Has to be said every horde Ive seen so far has evaporated like snow in midsummer as soon as its flanks are threatened. Or even to a cavalry charge on occasion...

Then your not playing against good players.

A "good" horde unit will not care if it's surrounded on all sides. It's still going to win. It's simple math really, you have at maximum 6 turns to kill every model in the unit, if you want points for it. I've yet to have any unit or combination of units in the game kill my 50 Marauders. and at 250pts I'm bringing 4-6 blocks of them in 2k.

Sure hordes of expensive troops are bad, but cheap hordes now rule 8th ed.

Vsurma
30-08-2010, 12:24
How does flanking help?

Ok so I flank slaves, now they get maybe 7 weak attacks that kill nothing rather than 24. um so? I lose 0.5 saurus rather than 2.

It's not like they where going to kill anything anyway, the point is they stay there, locking my unit in place for several turns so that I in turn can be flanked.

unless your playing woc and marauders, chances are skaven has more units than you do. If hordes break to being flanked (not really) then whatever your throwing at them will likely also break when your flanked.

They are not unbeatable, but ld10 stubborn slaves are pretty badass. Not that it is the only thing skaven have going for them, magic, shooting etc all good.

bfeijter
30-08-2010, 12:31
if you flank skaven their strenght in numbers rule doesnt work anymore.
A unmodified leadership on a LD 5 is still gonna fail....

If they are in range of the general thats a wopping 7/8
But more often then not a skaven army cannot be intrely in the LD bubble of a general
Specialy if your running hordes

Skaven slaves are often the protectors of flanks leaving their side flank often exposed.

jamano
30-08-2010, 13:38
Not at all, they might not be as powerful as they were, but they are still very powerful. I play Dogs of War and would have given my right arm to have still been that good AFTER the nerf
Tomb kings can do well against a few armies(elves mostly),
but they fall apart against armored units and warmachines/spells (once the SSC's are gone the tk doesnt have much scary left to do) The unstoppable magic phase doesn't mean much when you don't care about them getting any incantations off because they will lose in combat, or do piddly wounds with archers.

Commissar Vaughn
30-08-2010, 13:44
Then your not playing against good players.

A "good" horde unit will not care if it's surrounded on all sides. It's still going to win. It's simple math really, you have at maximum 6 turns to kill every model in the unit, if you want points for it. I've yet to have any unit or combination of units in the game kill my 50 Marauders. and at 250pts I'm bringing 4-6 blocks of them in 2k.

Sure hordes of expensive troops are bad, but cheap hordes now rule 8th ed.

Having faced several such units the best of them lasted 3 rounds of h2h...not faced an army with more than a couple of them yet though, most of my opponents so far have preferred to bring a little more balance to their force.

As to the quality of my opponents, well they are of all ages, from all walks of life, some have been playing a couple of years, some a couple of decades. Some are club gamers, some are store gamers, some arent fussy....I find it hard to imagine that they were all bad players.

meneroth
30-08-2010, 14:21
have you faced that huge ogre bull/irongut horde that i think malorion used? check out his battle report in that forum. thats a pretty tough horde to crack. almost impossible if you ask me, with some boosts from their butchers. Sure, tons of artillery can crack it, but even then, they can still survive a couple cannons and still hit like bricks in CC

Lord of Divine Slaughter
30-08-2010, 15:00
The thing is, if you bring one uber unit, you can easily hex it into oblivion, as it is only one target.

For instance my army of DE could take that horde, tarpit it with my CoC/PoK sorceress, hex it with shadow and tear it apart with multiple low strength attacks from several 150-250 witch elf/SSS corsairs in its flanks/rear - not to mention just dumping them in a Pit of Shades.

The thing about the huge units, is that they are also easy targets, and there are plenty of tools to deal with them, here goes a few:

Tarpits or sacrificial troops.
Hexes.
Artillery.
Dwellers/Sun and other unit wide spell destructive spells.

fubukii
30-08-2010, 16:00
how to beat maurader hordes

Drop PCC, PWM, WLC and some magic to lower unit wise to a manageable amount, hit with HPA works pretty well, engage with ranked unit to negate steadfast while HPA adds about 10+cr

meneroth
30-08-2010, 21:05
I dont see DE taking that horde at all. CoC/PoK cant tarpit to save their lives, they dont have the numbers or the capacity for steadfast to be a tarpit. hexs arnt garanteed to get off. a good player will be able to defend against one of the most popular lores in the list. plus the ogres have all those really cheap buffs that can up the toughness to where your wounding on 6's. hit it with all the multiple low strength attacks you want, youll only do 16 wounds with 150 attacks after the first round of combat with T5 ogres. then they turn around and kill your ass.

no big destructive spell is reliable enough to get off more than once really, unless you REALLY want to risk the death of your casters. hexes may be able to hurt them, but augments can bring them right back to where they were. tarpits cant survive that long against units of that size, and now that the reform after combat stuff is in the rules you cant just redirect them away out of combat.

artillery is really the only thing i see as being really viable at cutting down hordes effectively. everyone states how easy things are without playing them. it cant be that easy, and hardly anyone has gone against that kind of a horde.

bonertron
30-08-2010, 22:16
Ive had a couple of games with my Vampires in 8th, and I havent done too bad. You cant play them the same way though. Wraiths are useless, as are the cavalry, for the most part. I found its even more aboit point denail with Vampires now. Try taking (depending on the size of game) two units of 100 (10x10) Zombies. Its really a dirt cheap unit that will never die. Tie up the enemies strong units with Zombies, and whittle them down. Take several necromancers to raise the units (using 1 dice, so if one fails and cant cast, you can use another), and a lvl 3 or 4 to cast Summon Undead Horde, and just keep making them. Put your general in a 4x10 unit of Grave Guard, with the regen banner, and just never, EVER die.

100 zombies, although they suck in combat, can actually cause some casualties when they are fighting in 3 ranks... 6's always wound now!

ChrisIronBrow
30-08-2010, 22:23
how to beat maurader hordes

Drop PCC, PWM, WLC and some magic to lower unit wise to a manageable amount, hit with HPA works pretty well, engage with ranked unit to negate steadfast while HPA adds about 10+cr

And meanwhile what are you doing about the other 2-3 marauder hordes? because all those options cost about as much as 3 hordes.

I would run units of 50. Khorne+GW 10x5, and right next to it, Tzeentch + shield 5x10. Khorne kills, Tzeentch keeps steadfast in the fight. good luck killing 10 ranks.

The reality is, expensive hordes are bad, cheap hordes are good. Multiple cheap hordes win. (assuming leadership is high enough and bsb.)

Sure Templates and magic cause damage on large hordes, that's why expensive hordes are bad.

The issue isn't that hordes are unbeatable, it's a question of power vs cost. If it takes 1/4th to 1/2 of your army to deal with 1/8th or mine, I'm almost guaranteed a win.

The only list I have yet to see take on the Hordes is a Daemon LD bomb list, and even then the hordes killed most of the units sent against them.

Azhrar
31-08-2010, 10:24
And meanwhile what are you doing about the other 2-3 marauder hordes? because all those options cost about as much as 3 hordes.

I would run units of 50. Khorne+GW 10x5, and right next to it, Tzeentch + shield 5x10. Khorne kills, Tzeentch keeps steadfast in the fight. good luck killing 10 ranks.

The reality is, expensive hordes are bad, cheap hordes are good. Multiple cheap hordes win. (assuming leadership is high enough and bsb.)

Sure Templates and magic cause damage on large hordes, that's why expensive hordes are bad.

The issue isn't that hordes are unbeatable, it's a question of power vs cost. If it takes 1/4th to 1/2 of your army to deal with 1/8th or mine, I'm almost guaranteed a win.

The only list I have yet to see take on the Hordes is a Daemon LD bomb list, and even then the hordes killed most of the units sent against them.

How exactly do you place 4-5 x 50 marauders and still retain any mobility?, I find one horde annoying enough as it is. It might just be me, but this seem to be a case of math hammer rather than pure field testing.

Commissar Vaughn
31-08-2010, 10:45
What else is in the remaining 5-600 points of that army? A general, couple of wizards? maybe a few horsemen?

Your still very vulnerable to the flank with just 5 or 6 units.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
31-08-2010, 11:33
I dont see DE taking that horde at all. CoC/PoK cant tarpit to save their lives, they dont have the numbers or the capacity for steadfast to be a tarpit.

You don't understand, you don't need a unit to tar pit, you need 1 model. 1 character equipped with Crown of Command and the Pendant of Kaeleth, and suddenly those ogres just come to a halt.

Its quite simple really :)

..

And no, nothing is guaranteed in a game of dice, but you'll find that 8th has a decent counter to most outrageous builds out there :)

ramongoroth
31-08-2010, 13:19
Vampire counts can still win. It just takes a bit more planning and thought rather than relying on fear to break units. Which I quite like actually. Grave Guard are still very good as is the black coach. The cavalry units are still good when taking into account the changes to all cavalry. The important bit is how you design your characters and what core choices you take (ghouls vs skeletons).

I have yet to see WoC in action in a larger battle but see no reason why they shouldn't do well. Lizardmen and Dark elves are definitely strong. Empire and Dwarves have excellent war machines with the new rules.

In fact the only armies that I see really struggling are WE and possibly TK. Sure TK's magic goes on forever but their troops don't perform that well.

ChrisIronBrow
31-08-2010, 13:32
What else is in the remaining 5-600 points of that army? A general, couple of wizards? maybe a few horsemen?

Your still very vulnerable to the flank with just 5 or 6 units.

Yeah, basicly a general and a BSB.

Why would my flanks be vulnerable? That doesn't get rid of steadfast, and each marauder of khorne has 2x str 5 attacks.


In my experience bring bodies to the table now wins you the game.

fubukii
31-08-2010, 13:34
And meanwhile what are you doing about the other 2-3 marauder hordes? because all those options cost about as much as 3 hordes.

I would run units of 50. Khorne+GW 10x5, and right next to it, Tzeentch + shield 5x10. Khorne kills, Tzeentch keeps steadfast in the fight. good luck killing 10 ranks.

The reality is, expensive hordes are bad, cheap hordes are good. Multiple cheap hordes win. (assuming leadership is high enough and bsb.)

Sure Templates and magic cause damage on large hordes, that's why expensive hordes are bad.

The issue isn't that hordes are unbeatable, it's a question of power vs cost. If it takes 1/4th to 1/2 of your army to deal with 1/8th or mine, I'm almost guaranteed a win.

The only list I have yet to see take on the Hordes is a Daemon LD bomb list, and even then the hordes killed most of the units sent against them.


well seeing how my usual army has 6 template weapons i could lay down the hurt quite easily. In addition with mv 4 you probably will not be able to charge until turn 3. meaning if i get first turn thats 3 shooting/magic phases of hurt. In addition maurader hordes while extremely powerful fighters in the front, are much much weaker if flanked, even my slave hordes can beat them on the flank, let alone actual skaven combat units.. Let be honest In a woc vs skaven battle i will certainly have more units ( my army literally take the whole board up) A nice unit of 6 gaint rats packed in front of the unit will still do wonders of holding them up and allowing me to gain flank charges if you charge them to get them out of the way. In a 1on1 situation you are right mauraders are OP and way to good for thier cost, but in a army vs army situation my army deals with them decently.

ChrisIronBrow
31-08-2010, 13:35
How exactly do you place 4-5 x 50 marauders and still retain any mobility?, I find one horde annoying enough as it is. It might just be me, but this seem to be a case of math hammer rather than pure field testing.

Basically I don't. I don't need to maneuver, all that needs to happen is to get them into a fight and they win. Every game I've played with them (no math hammer) I've won. Which is in stark contrast to losing every game I've left them at home... I'm willing to admit that I'm probably a bad general.

I'm just relating my experiences.

ChrisIronBrow
31-08-2010, 13:43
In addition maurader hordes while extremely powerful fighters in the front, are much much weaker if flanked, even my slave hordes can beat them on the flank, let alone actual skaven combat units..

Nope. Sorry man, that doesn't happen. Even on the flank Marauders beat slaves. (baring some statistical anomaly). All that needs to happen for Marauders to win is to be in a fight. The damage they put out is far more than the damage you can cause them at only 5 pts each.

Sure you can take twice as many slaves, but they'll die twice as fast and cause no where near the same damage.

To be honest, it sounds like most of you guys haven't faced the army yet, maybe one or two units, but not maxed out.

Like I said, every single game I've brought them I win. And I've faced Template spam. They still make it to a fight, and then they kill more than the points they give up.

fubukii
31-08-2010, 14:06
Nope. Sorry man, that doesn't happen. Even on the flank Marauders beat slaves. (baring some statistical anomaly). All that needs to happen for Marauders to win is to be in a fight. The damage they put out is far more than the damage you can cause them at only 5 pts each.

Sure you can take twice as many slaves, but they'll die twice as fast and cause no where near the same damage.

To be honest, it sounds like most of you guys haven't faced the army yet, maybe one or two units, but not maxed out.

Like I said, every single game I've brought them I win. And I've faced Template spam. They still make it to a fight, and then they kill more than the points they give up.

Actually i have played against a list similar to yours (4 units of 50 GW mauraders with full cmd). The key to beating these units is to not take them on from the front or 1 on 1 where they will dominate my poor skaven. This has been a typical skaven tactic for years and years and still remains true to this day. Fighting a unit with a potential 30 ws4 str 5 attacks in a frontal assault is suicidal and a sign of bad generalship. By just performing a simple sacrificial unit or taking advantage of your overwhelming numbers there are ways to deal with these OP infantry aside from the 6 template weapons in the list ( which actually made dealing with them ALOT easier, surpisingly the WLC and PCC removed droves of the marauders fast.). My first thoughts when playing vs said army was, ok what are the pros and cons of this unit

PROS:
1) extreme CC power of the front
2) cheap
3) lots of numbers

cons
1) weaker to flank
2) t3
3) no armor
4) strike last (which matters after you start to reduce the unit down past 30 men)
5) large units of any kind are vunerable to blasts (a small template can hit about 18 models)
6) weak vs spells that target the whole unit like any other horde (plague/wither are very useful)

Depending on the situation you will get approx 6-8 attacks depending on how many actually died, giving you
6-8 attacks - or 4 - 5ish hits, probably doing 3-4 wounds. giving you 4-5 total cr

THe slaves (i have done this before) start out with 3 ranks, charge, flank for 5, and hit on 4s wound on 4s. once again based on how many are remaining the slaves will get 18-21 attacks9-10 hits killing about 5. for cr of 10. And most likely no steadfast for you, good luck passing that break check.

Mauraders as you said, win in almost all frontal assault in fact very few units can beat them, i think really only Tz chaos warriors, and phoenix guard are the only ones due to thier extreme survivability. But thinking you can win even if flanked by a unit is just a bit extreme, as you are losing out on about 22 attacks i would say that makes a difference for sure.

Ratbeast
31-08-2010, 14:19
how to beat maurader hordes

Drop PCC, PWM, WLC and some magic to lower unit wise to a manageable amount, hit with HPA works pretty well, engage with ranked unit to negate steadfast while HPA adds about 10+cr

Agreed, never faced a full strenght horde before, they always get warp fired before my ranked units engange them, tends to do the trick ^^

fubukii
31-08-2010, 14:21
Agreed, never faced a full strenght horde before, they always get warp fired before my ranked units engange them, tends to do the trick ^^

i play skaven there is no such thing as a full strength horde when they fight me my 6 temps of doom ensure that quite well :P

Godswildcard
31-08-2010, 14:41
wait....I thought that the whole steadfast thing revolved around having more ranks of 5+ models than your opponent? Since I don't have the book in front of me, am I wrong? Is it just if you have more models than your opponent?

TheKingInYellow
31-08-2010, 15:21
wait....I thought that the whole steadfast thing revolved around having more ranks of 5+ models than your opponent? Since I don't have the book in front of me, am I wrong? Is it just if you have more models than your opponent?

No you need to have more ranks in one *unit* than your opponent. If you are facing six ranks, and you hit with four in the front and four in the flank, the unit with six ranks is still steadfast.

fubukii
31-08-2010, 15:44
you are right it is ranks but by killing models you remove ranks, which is what i was refering too. In addition i play skaven ranks are abundant in my army.

Godswildcard
31-08-2010, 16:09
Ok. I was just curious. All other things aside, I was just thinking about how a unit of 30 HE spearmen (6 ranks of 5) have more ranks than a horde of 50 Marauders (5 ranks of 10). Running the thinner 5 front also helps minimize the number of attacks hordes make (7 of the horde will get to attack per rank, for a total of 21 attacks for the horde and 20 attacks for the spearmen). May not be the best match-up, but it is the best I can hope for with basic spearmen against that particular unit. Now, flip the coin and put a unit of 50 spearmen up against the same unit and now I've got 50 WS5 S3 attacks coming your way with re-rolls to hit. My strength may not be great, but you are going to take a LOT of wounds regardless. The point is, I'm not sure that any one horde is "ZOMG PWNFACE AWESOME!" when compared to another. And before any snide comments are made, yes, I have played against that unit before. And yeah, you can bring a lot of them in 2500 points, but at 2500 points most armies can muster pretty good units.

fubukii
31-08-2010, 17:56
actually only 6 mauraders could fight vs 5 spearelves do to the base sizes. the best bet would be to buff the HE with life magic and give them regen or t5/7 pretty much meaning a auto win for the combat.

Walls
31-08-2010, 18:01
Wood Elves aren't actually that bad. People just need to rethink the builds. A player here is using an Eternal Guard block, a treeman and a ton of dryads quite effectively. Never discount skirmishers, they are still quite dangerous. Wood Elves have speed on their side and with standard pitched battle only being played 1/6 of the time now, they can really play that advantage up. I like their prospects.

For me, Bretts took the hit. Their super CR stacks are almost useless now as they arent gonna break a steadfast unit because of it. I find it sad that the only competitive build seems to be double trebs and big blocks of poor people. I am gonna start experimenting with some, mostly, all knight builds. Something's gotta work!

decker_cky
31-08-2010, 18:03
I think that marauder army would be a pile of laughs to get a good plague off on. 50 toughness tests, then hop on a 5+. Or a good purple sun down the flank (drops any unit if goes over down to about 33 models which is much less dangerous).

The main weakness of it is of course that you can punch a hole in the battle line with any unit that'll be 4 ranks deep after casualties.

@Walls: I agree on wood elves, but with every army having access to cheap flaming attacks, treemen and treekin are a little riskier. On the weekend, my bestigor block with flaming attacks dropped a treeman in a single round (it was hexed with -1 S and -1 T too). Life magic is huge for WE though.

Brets are weakened if you go knight heavy, but peasant heavy is awesome. 50 peasant archers with flaming arrows and the blessing that count as being behind an obstacle? Count me in! All of the peasants are solid, and the knights work as a hammer with a small footprint to combine with their ranks to cause the casualties to win combat.

Grax
31-08-2010, 19:10
I've recently gotten the itch to start painting again, but with the project I was working on before 8th (Vampire Counts) getting the nerfhammer, I have been having trouble motivating myself to paint them, as I keep getting the feeling that I will just lose every game I play with them. :cries: I love them to death, but methinks I might have to wait 'till a new book to resume that project.

Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to win every game I play, but I would like to feel like I have a chance to win. I have Bretonnians and Chaos, but have some doubts as to their playability as well. So the question is: What armies do you think are top dog(s) now? What armies are at least competitve, and what armies do you guys think are below average?

Vampire Counts won the local Ard Boyz I played at, easily dominating most of their opponents. The secret was to spam magic as before, but instead of focusing on summoning and using Danse Macabre on your powerful cavalry, the secret seems to be to use Danse and the Crypt Ghoul's bonus move at the start of the game (from the special ability that allows this) to lock down most of your opponent's army within the first 2 turns, so your powerful cavalry can finish them off one by one. It was devastatingly powerful.

Despite this powerful strategy, they're still probably a mid-tier army right now, just because of their lack of shooting, and moderately overcosted units.

Right now, the most competitive is probably Skaven, followed closely by Warriors of Chaos and High Elves (although High Elves it's mainly because of Teclis, who is easily the most broken character in 8th edition).

Empire, Dwarves, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen are all also very good. Everything else is more or less mid-tier, although many of them only seem to have one competitive build right now.

Unlike 40k, however, I don't think there really are any low-tier armies right now. Every army can be competitive, if played right.

ChrisIronBrow
31-08-2010, 19:33
Actually i have played against a list similar to yours (4 units of 50 GW mauraders with full cmd). The key to beating these units is to not take them on from the front or 1 on 1 where they will dominate my poor skaven.


Cool, Without going any further into the realm of "theoryHammer" Cause I think I've probably gone too far down that road already. I just want to agree with you that Marauders do much less damage when flanked. But the issue I've seen is that they still win, unless you lock them in with multiple units they can reform after one round of fighting. Also, if playing on a 6 foot wide table that's a total flank to flank surface of "72" inches. (there are different scenarios of course). With 4 units of 10x5 25mm bases that's a frontage of "40" inches. Then throw in 2 units of 5x10, because of "1" rule they take up minimum; Flank to Flank "56" inches. So, when deploying if you put a "2inch" gap between units it's impossible to be flanked unless drawn out of line, or units are destroyed.

Mostly the issue is that even if you get the flank, and win combat, and they flee, and you catch them, you've still only won 250 pts, and if you brought anything resembling a traditional army the Marauders will sweep across the table killing everything they touch.

Either way, I'd be interested to see how wins are taken against Marauder hordes.

Runt Nosher
31-08-2010, 19:35
I think the whole argument of these Marauder hordes is a bit ridiculous. I am yet to see it myself because my opponents generally play friendly lists outside of tournaments (which I haven't been to in 8th yet) but how can you keep all of these units under the umbrella of your BSB and General? Ld 7/8 tests still fail 1/2 or 1/3 times respectively... How do they never get singled out by a wiley opponent? Say a noble with Talisman of Loec and Star Lance in amongst a decent unit of Dragon Princes? Or the common build of Highborn with the ToL and White Sword? That's just amongst High Elves, my Ogre Tyrant would also smush any opponents General quite easily in combat, sure his unit might not make it but that doesn't mean I can't cast Toothcracker on him and make him T7 with mawseeker and stubborn on Ld 9... Death magic snipe spells? Stegadons regenerating wounds with every spell that a Slaan casts? HPA's decimating half of the unit before going down costs around the same amount of points and can tie them down long enough... Hell cannons will wreck them as will the average 4+ Warmachine set up brought to the table by Empire, Dwarfs and O&G... I covered a lot of armies there with fairly average things that show up on the table IMHO... It just puts a bad taste in my mouth when people post that 1500 points worth of GW armed marauders never get outranked, how many gnoblars can you take out of a 80 model unit with 16 ranks? It sounds ridiculous but so do the remarks that are being made about the unstoppable Marauders, I agree they are very good for the points cost (are they only 5 points with MoK and GW?) Most armies do have answers for them, well placed templates, even two or three, still cause enough damage for panic checks, and I know what has been said about BSB's making panic a useless tactic to rely on but you would have to deploy three units directly behind the three to ensure they were all under coverage. Maybe face people prepared for the circumstances rather than showing up with a pretty crooked list that not many people have solved, let alone imagined, yet? I would love to face the list with a Book of Hoeth, buff spells and hexes would really put this to rest and as much as I can't guarantee getting them off I don't think it can be guaranteed that the tactics of this list work out so seamlessly along the same vein of thought...

Vsurma
31-08-2010, 19:39
have you faced that huge ogre bull/irongut horde that i think malorion used? check out his battle report in that forum. thats a pretty tough horde to crack. almost impossible if you ask me, with some boosts from their butchers. Sure, tons of artillery can crack it, but even then, they can still survive a couple cannons and still hit like bricks in CC

I wouldn't mind meeting it, I would just 7 dice the +4 toughness buff and be all set, alternatively you can use another really good buff or good hex etc. With the way the magic phase works, more often than not you can get 1 spell through regardless of what the opponent does, with deathstars that 1 spell might just be enough.

Also 1 dwellers below tends to stop the unit being a horde fairly fast. 1/3 of the ironguts die along with 1/6 of the characters. Ouch. The whole point of some of the new spells is to make sure deathstars are not too common.

Fun unit no doubt and great if the enemy rolls poorly for their spells or magic dice etc.

Unless that ogre banner that allowed you to transfer spells works against all spells? or was it just direct damage? If its all that might actually be 1 deathstar that works (apart from war machines).

Vsurma
31-08-2010, 19:41
if you flank skaven their strenght in numbers rule doesnt work anymore.
A unmodified leadership on a LD 5 is still gonna fail....

If they are in range of the general thats a wopping 7/8
But more often then not a skaven army cannot be intrely in the LD bubble of a general
Specialy if your running hordes

Skaven slaves are often the protectors of flanks leaving their side flank often exposed.

Ok, good to know, I am not so familiar with the book.

Still its not easy to flank a more numerous and cheaper enemy. LD8 has a decent chance of success even outside but bsb but yea I guess it will fall after 3-4 rounds of CC either to loss of numbers or a failed test. Still 3-4 rounds is not something I can afford most of the time.

ChrisIronBrow
31-08-2010, 19:42
5 pts each for great weapons, Mark of Khorne is a one time upgrade applied to the entire unit for 30 pts. Which makes them Frenzy, which makes them immune to psych, which means no panic.

The real issue is that they don't need to be steadfast if there winning the fights. In my experience they win fights even after taking 13-20 combat wounds. (to the front)

Runt Nosher
31-08-2010, 19:52
I think that everybody here has written enough about it though ChrisIronBrow albeit not many of us have faced it but I think I would be prepared with my basic High Elf and Ogre tourney lists, there are many things like shooting and magic that you are completely leaving out of your explanations, what happens when they are S3? or T2/1? Or are fighting units that are T5+? This happens in pretty much all of my games so far at least once... Snotling or Great Eagle roadblocks? C'mon man, give the rest of us a bit of credit, we have all said that it's definitely a tough list you're packing but nothing in this game is un-answerable.

a18no
31-08-2010, 20:06
The bus of ogre can pass through that with no problem:

The ogre charge (better charge range), so kill 5 with bulls charge.
They everything strike at the same time, the buss got 4-5 guy in the front rank with T6 (and i don't include magic, if you can get +4T with 2 spells on, i can get +2S, or even regen and +1S). You got 14wide that can strike (providing you get that much wide!!), so it's 56 attacks. Hit on 4+, wound on 5+, you get 9 wounds total. For a horde, you can't kill a single ogre, but get 1-2 wounds on each to the front.

Strike back: 54 attacks, don't even count the bonus from characters, hit on 4+, wounds on 2+, 23 wounds. Stomp kill another 3.

Marauder did: 9 wounds
Ogres did 31, you got 19 left. break on double 1. Repeat for the next unit.

fubukii
31-08-2010, 20:20
The bus of ogre can pass through that with no problem:

The ogre charge (better charge range), so kill 5 with bulls charge.
They everything strike at the same time, the buss got 4-5 guy in the front rank with T6 (and i don't include magic, if you can get +4T with 2 spells on, i can get +2S, or even regen and +1S). You got 14wide that can strike (providing you get that much wide!!), so it's 56 attacks. Hit on 4+, wound on 5+, you get 9 wounds total. For a horde, you can't kill a single ogre, but get 1-2 wounds on each to the front.

Strike back: 54 attacks, don't even count the bonus from characters, hit on 4+, wounds on 2+, 23 wounds. Stomp kill another 3.

Marauder did: 9 wounds
Ogres did 31, you got 19 left. break on double 1. Repeat for the next unit.

mauraders are str 5 base so they wound your ogres on 3+ unless you are toughness 6 somehow

a18no
31-08-2010, 20:22
mauraders are str 5 base so they wound your ogres on 3+ unless you are toughness 6 somehow

The first rank of the bus is 4-5 characters with T6... did you red my post?? I use the resistance of the characters, but not the power of them. Cause you can add 5-6 attack S6-8. That's 3-4 more dead.

Yes you can bring some chaos lord... with S5 and T5. Right. But if you go in a challenge, many of your guys behind him won't attack cause ogres have bigger base (i've done it many time). Screwing 5-10 attacks can cost you the block. Even if you bring 4-10 more S5 attacks, you will at most bring 5 more wounds. 14 against 35 is the same result. You flee in pain!!

fubukii
31-08-2010, 20:51
can you have multiple of the same bigname?

In addition this unit is actually your whole army his is a bit under 300 pts :P

a18no
31-08-2010, 20:57
can you have multiple of the same bigname?

In addition this unit is actually your whole army his is a bit under 300 pts :P

Can have mutliple of the same big names, not on the same character though.

At 3000pts, the bus is 1900 or so. including ALL the characters
Can even field it in 2250pts game, with 450pts in the side.


At 3000 (so a bus of 1900pts), the horde include: stubborn, -1ld to ennemy, ward 6+ against warmachine, fiasco on 1-2-6 for ennemy and the banner te redirect all spells that target the unit (hex, direct damage, magic missile), unkillable tyrant (one that can make the dark elf one sigh... I know i play both!), and 3 big unit of gnoblar to side/rear to protect for charges.

Tarian
31-08-2010, 20:58
Lower T with Shadow Magic, use Flames of the Phoenix from Seer, proceed to laugh maniacally. Repeat as required.

a18no
31-08-2010, 21:04
Lower T with Shadow Magic, use Flames of the Phoenix from Seer, proceed to laugh maniacally. Repeat as required.

Redirect the shadow spell to a gnoblar unit on 2+
Let flame of the pheonix (2D6 S4???) go and watch the mage burning in a fiasco!! Yeah, free point for the mage and the general!!, grats you did 2 wounds!!

I'm preparing this list since the start of the 8th edition. We are 3 players trying to beat it and we haven't find any way of doing it. When we found something an ogre item or a common one is there to protect against it.

The only list we found that had a chance is the Slann/saurus/tower item. And in that case, the game is a draw.

The only person the beated it, had admited that it was only due to luck.VERY bad luck for the ogre, and VERY good luck for the opponent made the game a minor victory of 200pts margin.

And at 2250pts, I think that the list is even better, less point around to go for.

Tarian
31-08-2010, 21:08
Heh, it's a S3 hit for every model in the unit, and I was referring to the Marauder Horde. The Ogres get Pit of Shades.

a18no
31-08-2010, 21:11
Heh, it's a S3 hit for every model in the unit, and I was referring to the Marauder Horde. The Ogres get Pit of Shades.


Pit is a direct damage spell, so redirect it on gnoblar (ini 3) on 2+!, not even adding the fact that the Ogre player can dispel it. If he don't (because of IF) the mage can blow itself after destroying 15 gnoblars... wow 30pts for you and 200-400 for me! I stay behind and wait for the win (or go for the biggest target to go for the massacre!).

I've missed the 2+ once against a Teclis/pit of shades. He killed 3 ironguts because of the scatter, and received a charge the turn after... was destroy when in a 30 big phoenix guard with BSB... Win for me.

Bring me a counter that cost roughly 2000pts and I will try it. The horde had even killed 4 brettonians lances each consist of 15 knight, with BSB on the second rank, lord fully geared, 2 damsels that were buffing with +4T and other things.... when they got the charge, with one in the flank. The flank arrived in the second turn (grail knight), but the other 3 were depleated (they came at the same time in the front) at this time. Resolution: no more knight, 12 ogres on the 18 were alive.

Gallock
31-08-2010, 21:16
My current opinion for top armies are Lizards, Skaven and WoC.

Most armies have a few tricks up their sleeves to do well though.

fubukii
31-08-2010, 21:17
Pit is a direct damage spell, so redirect it on gnoblar (ini 3) on 2+!, not even adding the fact that the Ogre player can dispel it. If he don't (because of IF) the mage can blow itself after destroying 15 gnoblars... wow 30pts for you and 200-400 for me! I stay behind and wait for the win (or go for the biggest target to go for the massacre!).

I've missed the 2+ once against a Teclis/pit of shades. He killed 3 ironguts because of the scatter, and received a charge the turn after... was destroy when in a 30 big phoenix guard with BSB... Win for me.

with skaven id just feed it units that are worthless to speed bump it and bump it full of WLC for a few turns :P, then eventually hit it with the abom. flanking said unit would do ok as well.

Tarian
31-08-2010, 21:18
Or tie it with slaves then shoot WLCs and WFTs down the front.

Pacorko
31-08-2010, 21:23
Erm... all of them, really? Except the DoC which got real with the FAQ.

So far, in all the games I've played or witnessed, every single one of the armies has had great chances at winning and some pretty sordid losses. I mean, on five ocassions I've been tied to a WoC army with Archaon as the general using my night gobbo heavy O&Gs army (without archers!). FIVE. TIMES. With the army book everybody was whining about just how bad it was, for the past edition.

Oh, and one glorious if bloody major victory with OKs against Archie the Evertying. :p

Of course, if by good you mean "autowin button" I'd its the same three as before: DE, Lizardmen and WoC in their "maxed-out bestest uber combo" configuration... which is lame and little fun to play with or against unless you really need to win a tourney to give some semblance of sense to your life.

a18no
31-08-2010, 21:24
with skaven id just feed it units that are worthless to speed bump it and bump it full of WLC for a few turns :P, then eventually hit it with the abom. flanking said unit would do ok as well.

Make me a list, we'll try it! And i'll come back with the result!

I so hope that you'll find a good way to kill it. Cause so many peoples are copying it... the tournement scene will be covered with ogre in no time if you don't find a way to kill it.!

fubukii
31-08-2010, 23:01
Make me a list, we'll try it! And i'll come back with the result!

I so hope that you'll find a good way to kill it. Cause so many peoples are copying it... the tournement scene will be covered with ogre in no time if you don't find a way to kill it.!

try something like this

Rough guessing not at home currently

Grey seer - skalm , ward, scroll
bsb
3 x 50 slaves with musician
2 x 40 clanrats shield full cmd
2 wft
6 rat ogres 3 packs
4 rat ogres 2 packs
2 x 5 Giant rats 1 pack
2 WLC
2 PCC
1 HPA
6 gutter runners with psn

that is roughly my tournament list that i can recall off the top of my head. Obviously the PCC arent great in this situation but this is what id bring to a tournament i dont really list tailor.

Peril
31-08-2010, 23:13
For a horde, you can't kill a single ogre, but get 1-2 wounds on each to the front.

Strike back: 54 attacks


Morbo says: WOUND ALLOCATION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Col. Custard
31-08-2010, 23:37
Pit is a direct damage spell, so redirect it on gnoblar (ini 3) on 2+!, not even adding the fact that the Ogre player can dispel it. If he don't (because of IF) the mage can blow itself after destroying 15 gnoblars... wow 30pts for you and 200-400 for me! I stay behind and wait for the win (or go for the biggest target to go for the massacre!).

I've missed the 2+ once against a Teclis/pit of shades. He killed 3 ironguts because of the scatter, and received a charge the turn after... was destroy when in a 30 big phoenix guard with BSB... Win for me.

Bring me a counter that cost roughly 2000pts and I will try it. The horde had even killed 4 brettonians lances each consist of 15 knight, with BSB on the second rank, lord fully geared, 2 damsels that were buffing with +4T and other things.... when they got the charge, with one in the flank. The flank arrived in the second turn (grail knight), but the other 3 were depleated (they came at the same time in the front) at this time. Resolution: no more knight, 12 ogres on the 18 were alive.

Just to note, you do realize that you played an illegal list if your opponent had his BSB in the second rank right? The Bretonnian army book states that Paladins must always be in the front rank, and displace command models to do so.

Maoriboy007
01-09-2010, 00:03
Not at all, they might not be as powerful as they were, but they are still very powerful.Maybe a powerscroll list could be considered powerful which is just :cries:
If you read anti VC lists and then cross reference them with the 8th edition rules, you will see VC took every nerf that was called for, when really the change to fear was probably the only mandatory one that was required.

I play Dogs of War and would have given my right arm to have still been that good AFTER the nerf!Cannons Mortars and Pikes all took a massive boost, and Characters suddenly got access to a huge plethora of functional magic items they didn't have before.
Even so I'm not sure what you expect from an army that was barely 6th edition compliant.


Ive had a couple of games with my Vampires in 8th, and I havent done too bad. You cant play them the same way though. Wraiths are useless, as are the cavalry, for the most part. I found its even more aboit point denail with Vampires now. Try taking (depending on the size of game) two units of 100 (10x10) Zombies. Its really a dirt cheap unit that will never die. Tie up the enemies strong units with Zombies, and whittle them down. Take several necromancers to raise the units (using 1 dice, so if one fails and cant cast, you can use another), and a lvl 3 or 4 to cast Summon Undead Horde, and just keep making them. Put your general in a 4x10 unit of Grave Guard, with the regen banner, and just never, EVER die.
100 zombies, although they suck in combat, can actually cause some casualties when they are fighting in 3 ranks... 6's always wound now!Urghh, not an improvement to VC playstyle IMO,if bunker chum raise lists are the way to go for VC then:mad:


Vampire counts can still win. It just takes a bit more planning and thought rather than relying on fear to break units. Which I quite like actually. Grave Guard are still very good as is the black coach. The cavalry units are still good when taking into account the changes to all cavalry. The important bit is how you design your characters and what core choices you take (ghouls vs skeletons).The problem is the army was designed around fear autobreak, which is why poor stat skeletons and Zombies are priced the way they are. You are right, VC can still win, but technically so could O&G

Makaber
01-09-2010, 00:13
Personally, I would be extremely careful about passing judgement yet, because people are still figuring things out. For example, nobody seem to give Beastmen a fighting chance, but The Grand Wazoo (friend of mine, great guy, a lot better at 40k than at Fantasy) had back to back victories against an absolutely brutal Squig horde O&G list, before trashing the Maruader horde of arguably the best player at the club. So, in my eyes, the jury is still out on a lot of things.

jioop
01-09-2010, 08:45
To tell you the truth, I find Dwarf to be up there with the hardest, along with Lizardmen and Warriors of Chaos. Also, Daemons are still quite nasty.

I just fought Wood Elves, and they are really strong still! That was a HUGE surprise when I fielded my Skaven vs a friends wooden elves. I took quite the beating actually, but in all fairness, I did roll rather poor. On the average, I rolled 1 the most when it came "to hit" and "to wound". Can't win when that happens. Also, he rolled 5s and 6s mostly. Might want to buy new dices...

Dark Elves are rather strong, almost capable of out casting a slann in a good magic round I would have thought.
But I have to say that Empire got a huge advantage now with no guessing any more, mortars are to be feared with Horde blocks, that is for true.

ramongoroth
01-09-2010, 11:29
The problem is the army was designed around fear autobreak, which is why poor stat skeletons and Zombies are priced the way they are. You are right, VC can still win, but technically so could O&G

Oh I agree that zombies and skeletons are now due for a price reduction in the next army book for the reason you mention. I'm not about to claim VC are among the best 3 or 4 armies out there. I just don't feel they've fallen as far as some claim.

a18no
01-09-2010, 14:48
try something like this

Rough guessing not at home currently

Grey seer - skalm , ward, scroll
bsb
3 x 50 slaves with musician
2 x 40 clanrats shield full cmd
2 wft
6 rat ogres 3 packs
4 rat ogres 2 packs
2 x 5 Giant rats 1 pack
2 WLC
2 PCC
1 HPA
6 gutter runners with psn

that is roughly my tournament list that i can recall off the top of my head. Obviously the PCC arent great in this situation but this is what id bring to a tournament i dont really list tailor.

Interesting list, seem balance and fun to play against. We'll give a try, maybe with proxy.

It's for 2250 pts right?


Morbo says: WOUND ALLOCATION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

What do you meen? If the front rank consist of 4 characters, 1 musician and 1 champion, even if you get 40 attacks that did 9 wounds total, you will only be able to strike:
8 attacks allocated to the champion, 8 to the musician (so the unit), at most 16 allocated to 1 characters 2 times, and 8 more to another character.

That make: 3 wounds on the champs, 3 on the unit, 2 on each characters with 16 attacks, one on the last one. So did 11 wounds at best. Against 31 from teh ogres...