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View Full Version : Hydra vs HPA vs STank vs Stegs



UDirtyRat
30-08-2010, 01:35
All of these big nasties have monster reputations in the warhammer world, but which would you prefer to be able to field in your army if you had the choice of any of these being part of your army composition under their existing rules for inclusion...

meaning, you could field stegs as special and ancients as rares
or hydras, HPA and stanks as rares

I like that stegs can be fielded in numbers, a dual charge from stegs is awesome
the stank is always a menace, prob even harder to kill now if not for magic

for me, i think its a toss up between the HPA and Hydra for their points costs

I'd probably go with the Hydra, its just so reliable and strong for its points and I like the way the new breath weapon works, its a guaranteed auto-win unit wrecker, and really the hydra shouldnt be out of combat.

I would be interested to hear some thoughts.

DirtJumper
30-08-2010, 01:43
In my opinion it is hands down the Hydra. It's just absurdly good for it's points cost, and actually got a lot better in 8th ed. HPA, while powerful, is just too random for my tastes, and the Stank and Stegs are a lot more points.

Gaargod
30-08-2010, 01:53
HPA is silly good. The Hydra hits very hard to be sure, but the HPA for will actually wipe out units in a couple of turns. 360' charge arc is also huge.

If the HPA was 20pts more, the hydra would win happily due to max 500pts of rare (so no doubles). But they aren't, so its difficult.

STank is awesome, unless you run up against war machines or wizards with certain spells. Also cannot double up.


Stegs actually are best used as grinders. With a life slann nearby, they're Ld9 coldblooded rerollable for break tests, and are easily healed with lifebloom, whilst they slowly eat the unit.

DirtJumper
30-08-2010, 02:06
A lore of Death wizard does seem like it would make short work of a Stank. (or any other monster for that matter, as long as it's casting is mostly un-impeeded)

Justicar Valius
30-08-2010, 02:11
In a casual the hydra or a steg. In a tourney or if my life depended on the win HPA.

Maoriboy007
30-08-2010, 02:28
The stank can only take 2 maybe 3 wounds before it starts to become useless, and is not much harder for your average troop to wound than the other contenders.
Stegs are heavy hitters, but not so durable as the HPA or the Hydra.
The Hydra is undercosted, but the HPA hits a bit harder. Both are fairly durable, but the HPA pips the post with stubborn.

Nurglus-the-Seeping
30-08-2010, 04:17
I must have the worst luck of anyone on this earth then. I've taken a HPA many many many times, and I've never had the success others speak of. My HPA has died in every game I've brought it. It has not once ever made its stubborn ld save.

I've had it shot to death in one turn by a cannon.
Dropped in one turn from DE x-bows in one round of shooting.
Flank charged and run down by 5 HE fast cav.
Charged and beaten and run down by DE cold one knights.
Shot to death (7th ed) on a stand and shoot reaction from shadow warriors.

I've caused some damage to units to be sure, but I've never seen the success in eating an opponents entire unit, let alone army. I know it is anecdotal and can't be used as total evidence but if my life were depending on it I'd go with Hydras any day.

Bloody Nunchucks
30-08-2010, 04:25
I think that it would be cool to have a hydra but in a touney i would rather have a steam tank, just because its awsome

sulla
30-08-2010, 04:47
One of any of them is good, but surely the issue should be, "which of them would you rather have 2 of? "

Esco Thomson
30-08-2010, 04:54
My two Hellpits did pretty well this weekend. There were as can be expected with Skaven, a few dur dur dur moments, like when a destroyed unit of Gutter Runners sent my beast scurrying off...

Campbell1988
30-08-2010, 04:57
The Stank is too easily killed or neutralized. Lore of Shadow, Death, and Metal all have easy ways to cripple or kill the bloody thing with ease. I think Nurgle does too.

Stegs are nice, I like them. Frankly though, not my favorite. Very nasty though.

Now HPA...those are scary, potentially. I've seen em die easy and I've seen em run rampant. Toughie that one.

Hydras are just scary. Almost never had one not perform. Shadow has a easy way to drop it, Fire can do nasty things as well though I don't see it being a common lore so far. Still, not too bad and the damn thing will tear you up badly until it's last breath. And the potential for taking up to 4 at 3k is just...*shudders*

Me, I'd go Hydra personally. Still, I can understand those that go with the HPA as well.

knightime98
30-08-2010, 05:15
Well, I play all 4 of these armies. Not to say it makes me an expert by no means but I have some insight to all these.

By far and without question, in my opinion it is the War Hydra!
- Has breath Weapon that can shoot INTO combat via 8th edition rules AND those wounds count for combat resolution. (check)
- Has Regeneration (check)
- Has Hatred (check)
- Has a sum total of 13 attacks (counting handlers) (check)
- Causes Terror (check)
- Monster and Handler rules (check) - which also means crewmembers can't be picked out. (double check)
- Has Thunder stomp (check).
- Crew members have armor piercing (check).
- Hydra gets a 4+ armor save check
- Has WS 4. (check)
- Toughness 5 (check)

Add all this together and you have one heck of a solid choice! With up to 19 attacks/hits and you can also add 2d6 (Str x breath weapon attacks). How can you go wrong?

Reasons for not picking other choices..

Steam Tank
- where shall I start? Oh, at the beginning of the game it starts off being crippled!
I mean this sincerely, it can not functionally work to full capacity without a chance for failure!
- It can not attack in the opponents turn, save the engineer who can pop out and shoot his pistol (I think). Lame to say the least.
- Very limited in scope of what it really can do other than be a field monument after it takes a few wounds.
- Can be eliminated from play with a single spell. Purple Sun of Xerxus anyone? 300 points right down the tur-let (toilet).
- Is autohit in combat.
- My opinion - it's just pure cheese and stupid - so I just simply don't but almost never field it. In a 3000+ point game once a year, I MIGHT play it.. Usually on request...

Hellpit Abomination.
- Um.. cheese, cheese and yes more cheese. It's a crutch.. (My opinion ! )
- 3d6 attacks plus 1d6 attacks if charging.
- At the end of combat it gets yet another d6 hits via ThunderStomp. (Total of 5d6 S5? attacks is it). Don't know never fielded it. I've killed it in 2 games that I played against it.
- It is stubborn but on an 8.. So holds about 65-70 percent of the time.
- Random movement, no guarantee it will charge what's intended.

Steggies
- These guys get the fun check mark.
- However, they lack in number of attacks.
- They are stubborn but not regenerate.
- Low WS.
- Good armor save pending set up.
- These guys would be my 2nd choice.
- They can stick a fight out but will not really win any combats by themselves. Most of the time your opponent will be steadfast and with a reroll they and you will be around till the end of time.

That's again my opinion on these so, I don't want to hear you said this unit xxx sucks.. Well, maybe I did but guess what - IT's my OPINION! So, it seems to me !

Putty
30-08-2010, 05:40
double hpa

kthxbye

cybercaine
30-08-2010, 05:57
My money is on Stegs. . . and Stegs. . . and Stegs. . .

I played 'ardboyz this past weekend and only lost a single Stegadon out of my 2 both games and that was against an orc general kitted out to beat Monsters. Honestly, with lore of life now and the changes to stubborn these guys are unreal. Unreal I tell you. Last edition, you could easily just dedicate attacks to the skinks and force a LD 6 test for break. Now, killing skinks just gets you another round of combat in which they thunderstomp. . . and thunderstomp. . . and thunderstomp. . . And all the little wounds, they just get healed by the toad with Lore of Life. It almost feels unfair. Sure, they don't produce like Hydras. . . but what does that's a monster? I can't count the number of turns I'd begin with my Stegs having taken a bunch of wounds and sure enough it ends up back flush with Lore of Life on my turn. Now, these things have to be dealt with in one turn. Fail to kill it in a turn, it will be back to full or darn near close.

Dmk7001
30-08-2010, 07:05
A lore of Death wizard does seem like it would make short work of a Stank. (or any other monster for that matter, as long as it's casting is mostly un-impeeded)


The Stank is too easily killed or neutralized. Lore of Shadow, Death, and Metal all have easy ways to cripple or kill the bloody thing with ease. I think Nurgle does too.





Steam Tank
- Can be eliminated from play with a single spell. Purple Sun of Xerxus anyone? 300 points right down the tur-let (toilet).


Unless it's been changed in the empire errata the steam tank is immune to all magic except magic missiles and even though most/all lores have magic missiles there is no guarantee your opponent even will roll them.

eyescrossed
30-08-2010, 07:07
HPAs or Hydras.

Also, why are the Monsters and Handlers rules so good? Am I missing something?

Sparowl
30-08-2010, 07:16
Unless it's been changed in the empire errata the steam tank is immune to all magic except magic missiles and even though most/all lores have magic missiles there is no guarantee your opponent even will roll them.

Its been changed.


Frankly, the Stegadon shouldn't be part of this. All three of the other choices are so much better.

My vote is for the Hydra, followed by the HPA. Mainly because the Hydra is so ridiculously cheap, while being able to put out the damamge. The HPA is also stupidly cheap for the damage it can do.

The major thing is that the Hydra and the HPA both support their armies very well.

cybercaine
30-08-2010, 07:17
Unless it's been changed in the empire errata the steam tank is immune to all magic except magic missiles and even though most/all lores have magic missiles there is no guarantee your opponent even will roll them.

Oh. . . it's been changed all right. It's now a t10 chariot that isn't immune to magic at all. You can buff it, debuff it, heal it, and PoS/PSoX it.

Stumpy
30-08-2010, 07:46
Stegs shouldn't be on the list. They're slightly undercosted (like most are in 8th) but not excessive.
Steamtanks are wierd, they're unbalanced in that they have massive strengths and massive weaknesses. If the enemy has the stuff to deal with it, its a glorified terrain piece.
HPAs are utterly broken but slightly easier to kill than the hydra and costs more.
Hydras are the best monsters in the game excepting maybe the HPA in raw ability and utility. Its also the cheapest. Its a single-model representation of of the dark elf army book.

Campbell1988
30-08-2010, 09:16
Also, why are the Monsters and Handlers rules so good? Am I missing something?

In the Hydras case it's the fact that you pretty much can't kill them and they can still hit you with 6 WS 4 Str 3 Armor Piercing attacks with Hatred each turn.

Chaos Undecided
30-08-2010, 09:44
I've yet to see a HPA in action unfortunately (or should that be fortunately) it just seems very random to me as others have indicated really just a giant chaos spawn on warpstone steroids. I'd probably go with the Hydra as at least it can be relied upon to perform most of the time.

One thing that worries me about the Stegadons is under the new rules with cannon balls treated as templates as its a ridden monster doesnt that mean a single cannon has the potential to wipe out its entire crew in one shot now which could handicap the beasts usefulness somewhat.

Dark Aly
30-08-2010, 10:01
talking about templates. the rules state that they hit every model under them... so a mortar shot on a hydra would hit the handlers too yes,no?

eyescrossed
30-08-2010, 10:01
Oh right, good point.

sulla
30-08-2010, 10:02
HPAs or Hydras.

Also, why are the Monsters and Handlers rules so good? Am I missing something?The M&H rules are not particularly good. The hydra's rules chuck the vulnerabilities out the window though.

That said, I get the feeling a lot of the people that vote them #1 haven't actually played them in this edition. With I2, they are likely to lose a wound or two before they get to breathe, meaning if they use their breath in combat, it will likely be only s4 or 5. Combined with an average of 7 hits, it is only the very desperate general that would use the hydras breath in combat.

The goal is breathe while stil at full wounds and outside of combat.

Oh, and double hellcannons for the win in 8th too. Not much they can't do in the game now.

Novrain
30-08-2010, 10:14
I have to agree with sulla here, Hellcannons really should be in the list for the scariest monster in the game, especially when there are two!

Otherwise, another vote for the Hydra, the STank is just too easily neutered


Edit: 100th Post!

theorox
30-08-2010, 10:19
Hm...i will make my decision if somebody could tell me how much a Steggy costs? (Round numbers, don't wanna break dem forum rulez...) :)

Theo

Heimagoblin
30-08-2010, 10:26
I play lizardmen and can tell you if I had the choice of taking the stegadons out of the list and adding another monster I would not even have to think about it. Firstly, stegs can come from hero's, specials and rares instead of just rare's. Second they are virtually unbreakable, third they virtually cannot be killed when in combat unless put in a stupid situation such as grave guard with gw's or the like. Thirdly on average they will inflict 8 wounds at str 6 on a t4 4+ save unit when they charge and 4-5 when they don't meaning they will usually win combat.

In a game I played recently my stegs out performed my opponents abomination completley. IMO the t6 str 6 is such an enourmous boost from t5 str 5. As for the hyda, yea they're undercosted but the can't break units on there own and arn't stubborn when they get counter charged. My vote's would be.

1) Stegadon










2)Hell Pit
3)Stank
4)Hydra

eyescrossed
30-08-2010, 11:10
Erm... Abominations are Str6.

Stumpy
30-08-2010, 11:17
Hydras can't break units on their own? Do you use units of 60 or something?
Against your standard WS4 trooper, a hydra would do 15.75 Str5 and 4.5 Str3 hits average in its first round. Against a normal unit of 25, wave bye-bye.

Korraz
30-08-2010, 11:21
Hydra. A million times the hydra. It actually does what you want it to, when you want it to.

knightime98
30-08-2010, 11:51
Just a side bar on this as an observation.

I really don't like the idea that the Lizardmen Army has become the new neigh unstoppable broken army. Meaning that with a Slann/lore of life/ cupped hands, 3 or 4 disciplines/ bane head/ with accompanied Temple Guard/ 2 or 3 Steggies (maybe Engine of the gods) is now the only build.

All this despite the fact - I have 8k points of Lizardmen (all painted beautifully mind you). Looks like I'll have to put them on the shelf. A sad day.. I've played them once this edition and had not any competition. It was a relatively easy win. I dismissed it as it was a one off game. In hind sight, I only had 1 Steggy with a skink chief and the War Spear. First time I used that combo. I ran all over my Skaven opponent and I really felt bad about it. I don't want to be known as "that guy" who brings broken armies just to win.

Anyhow, after reading other posts perhaps the Steggy is in a close tie with the other 2 options. Steam Tank has been adequately dismissed as being anywhere near as close an option.

Stumpy
30-08-2010, 12:33
Steam tank should be replaced with the hell cannon for votes. Steggies shouldn't be there at all- they're strong and tough but without absurd damage output or gimmicks.

My lizardmen have also been very effective, but mine hopefully isn't cheese as I don't use saurus infantry or slann ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
30-08-2010, 13:15
I really don't like the idea that the Lizardmen Army has become the new neigh unstoppable broken army. Meaning that with a Slann/lore of life/ cupped hands, 3 or 4 disciplines/ bane head/ with accompanied Temple Guard/ 2 or 3 Steggies (maybe Engine of the gods) is now the only build.

:eyebrows: :wtf: You don't have to include all the broken choices in one army. Having an army with so many good choices means that you can easily balance your list by not choosing to take all of them and still have varied and fun games.

/on topic/ I've only seen the hydra and steam tank used in or group. The hydra is very effective, but probably wont survive the battle. Steam tanks on the other hand can be very effective, but, almost certainly wont live up to their full potential. They will however almsot certainly survive and deny VPs.

As people expad their armies i the new edition hopefully I'll get to see the others as I play agaisnt skaven and one of my friends has just started a lizard army and has already purchased a steg.

Out of the hyrda and stank, I'd give the edge to the stank, simply on the basis if VP denial. Unless you pick the right lore or have cannons it will be very dificult to kill it by the end of any game.

EDIT: I have to agree that the hellcannon probably beats the others in terms of effectiveness. The ability to template every turn at strength 5 and fight in combat makes it extremely potent.

jamano
30-08-2010, 14:04
Plus its miscast causing result is extremely deadly now

decker_cky
30-08-2010, 17:48
Hydras cost 35% less than the next two cheapest in this list, and are comparably effective. For that reason, I'd rank them highest.

Stegadons have a horrible achilles heel against templates. Steam tanks have a horrible achilles heel against magic. HPA is pure nastiness in combat, but I still rank the breath weapon (used outside combat) as the difference maker. A well placed breath weapon will fry half of a huge infantry unit (20ish wounds rather than 6ish wounds in combat).

Even without the breath weapon, the hydra is second in combat for this list behind the abom.

WarmbloodedLizard
31-08-2010, 00:52
style/fun: ancient stegs
power: Hydra (but abo for killing power or stank for VP denial are also great. stegs aren't really in the same league.)

EDMM
31-08-2010, 01:11
Why isn't the Doomwheel here?

In my opinion it is far and away the Rare choice heavy hitter par excellence.

The Warp Lightning easily takes care of any of the others on this list.

It's cheap, durable, dishes out a ton of pain against rank and file troops and can easily annihilate any monsters.

SiNNiX
31-08-2010, 01:17
Why is this even being debated? Hydra hands down... the point cost vs. functionality of the Hydra is far far far far far superior than HPA.

STank is a joke. Seriously. Stegs are awesome, but like previous posters have said, not comparable to the others in the thread.

cybercaine
31-08-2010, 02:03
Victory Point denial? It doesn't get any better than Stegadons now. Seriously. I mean, you can buy an Ancient for a hero, lose the hero and not give up any points because you have to kill the whole unit to get any VP's from the monster (which is actually fairly likely to happen in this edition due to Lore of Life being the ultimate amazingness for Lizardmen. . . it was practically invented for their use I think. . .). In the same vein, you can kill the monster and fail to garner any points as the character on the monster can still run around. I cannot stress just how difficult these monsters are to kill now without dedicating cannons at them in large numbers or beefed up characters designed to kill monsters quickly. Combined with the change to stubborn, this makes the Stegadon the ultimate in point denial.

I also have to say that I find the hydra a lot less scary now. Last edition, flaming attacks seemed a lot harder to come by and combined with their decent movement and attacking first due to charging meant that the hydra would roll through just about whatever it contacted. Sure, it can breath weapon in combat for insane res, or hose a unit with it's breath weapon out of combat. But with the flaming attacks banner, it's a lot less durable. And I personally feel that that banner is too cheap to not get included in most armies in a unit that can put a hurt on a thing like the hydra. I run it on my toad to give my tg extra punch against things like the drakenhoff banner, hydras, trolls, or HPA. I'd also like to point out how ridiculous it is for armies that have access to ranged units that can gain flaming attacks. One wound from a flaming ranged attack in the shooting phase means that the rest of the incoming wounds don't get regenerated in that phase. Regeneration is a lot less reliable now against players that are prepared for such things.

Trains_Get_Robbed
31-08-2010, 04:08
Here's a new list with tiers:

Tier one: Hellcannon, Hpa, Hydra

Tier two: Stegs, Steamtank

Anything we missing? I am personally thinking Vargulf for tier two, maybe Tomb Scorpian? Thats it.

And the WLC although good, isn't a monster, nice try though big guy.

UberBeast
31-08-2010, 04:12
HPA before hydra. Hydras are still good but they used to be mobil flame canons, now they are pretty much just big underpriced monsters.