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fall3nang3l
30-08-2010, 13:54
So with the new FW MK II armor variants I've been toying around with making a pre-heresy themed space marine army (was thinking of the Luna Wolves). What units in the current SM codex would have and would not have existed pre-heresy? I know Land Raider Crusaders were invented by Black Templars. I'd assume redeemers are fairly new. Vindicators codex says were invented during the early years of the Horus Heresy (makes me a sad panda). What about weapons? Wasn't plasma weaponry more prominent because they forgot how to produce them over time? Dreadnoughts? Terminator armor?

You'd think that 10,000 years and the only new technology is adding bolters to land raiders :wtf:

R0ot
30-08-2010, 14:41
So with the new FW MK II armor variants I've been toying around with making a pre-heresy themed space marine army (was thinking of the Luna Wolves). What units in the current SM codex would have and would not have existed pre-heresy? I know Land Raider Crusaders were invented by Black Templars. I'd assume redeemers are fairly new. Vindicators codex says were invented during the early years of the Horus Heresy (makes me a sad panda). What about weapons? Wasn't plasma weaponry more prominent because they forgot how to produce them over time? Dreadnoughts? Terminator armor?

Right I know this will probably cause waaaaaambulances but if you take the HH books as some fluff you have plasma, dreadnoughts, terminator armor was relatively new pre-heresy. You've still got a load to play with but a good army to represent Luna wolves would be an all drop podding one since their spearhead thing of attacking the head of the enemy (emperor, governor what have you ) was once of their moves.



You'd think that 10,000 years and the only new technology is adding bolters to land raiders :wtf:

Frag Launchers and an Increased Troop Capacity too.

Lupe
30-08-2010, 14:49
Land Speeder STCs were discovered after the Heresy. LR variants (Helios, Ares, Prometheus, Terminus, Redeemer, Crusader) are also post Heresy issues.

Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Plasma weaponry would have all existed before, and probably in greater numbers. Vindicators might be okay to use, under the assumption that they were still prototypes during their first rounds of live testing.

AndrewGPaul
30-08-2010, 15:02
Wasn't the Land Speeder STC discovered in the same data cache as the Land Raider (hence the name)? If so, then they'd be available.

Plasma weaponry was used during the Heresy. Plasma cannon of the time were too bulky to be man-portable (even by Marines), and plasma guns weren't as reliable as modern Imperial versions (although the rules don't reflect the distinction any more) - one of the instances where Imperial technology has advanced since the Great Crusade. Multi-meltas were aither non-existent or rare, and the assault cannon and storm bolter didn't exist.

The basic Terminator melee weapon was possibly the power maul rather than the power fist (although they were often equipped with the latter) and chain-axes seem to have been more common.

R0ot
30-08-2010, 15:52
Land Speeder STCs were discovered after the Heresy

They're in several HH books if you want to go by those.

Lupe
30-08-2010, 15:58
They're in several HH books if you want to go by those.

Bah, damned retcons. I remember that their post heresy discovery was the sole reason Chaos Marines couldn't own any.

The_Blind_Anarchist
30-08-2010, 16:10
Assault cannons are also in the HH, well it is mentioned that they are coming in to use in A Thousand Sons, i think.

Motsognir
30-08-2010, 16:13
well you could look what weapons chaos sm do have (in farious codicis). subtrakt the deamon weapons and icons and you have the weapontech that existed at the heresy.

AndrewGPaul
30-08-2010, 17:07
Bah, damned retcons. I remember that their post heresy discovery was the sole reason Chaos Marines couldn't own any.

Their absence in the Heresy is the retcon; the Horus Heresy novels are simply going by the original information, which had Land Speeders in use by both sides. They're mentioned in the original Codex Titanicus as being present in numbers on both sides at Tallarn.

Wyrmwood
30-08-2010, 17:43
As for things like the Land Raider Crusader etc, you could use these proxied as the command/assault tank of a prolific Pre-Heresy commander etc. Back when I'd planned to use the Emperor's Children, it was going to be the personal transport of my Lord Commander and his Honour Guard - but used as a 'unique/customised' version.

Land Speeders were in use, though I believe they were 'bog-standard' configuration and no Storm pattern speeders.

But aye, Reaper/Autocannons were in use instead of Assault Cannons, the Combi-Bolter instead of the Storm Bolter (it's treated as effectively the same in the lore, though going by the rules the Combi-Bolter appears to be more reliable - re-roll to hit -, but gets off less shots), portable plasma cannons did not exist and neither did multi-melta weapons (though they may have been introduced later) and I think Terminators were equipped differently - oh, jump packs were also rarer, however the MK.II (Chaos Raptor) jump pack is more advanced than the current one (MK.III), IIRC. Vindicators were also developed during the Heresy by Robourte Guilliman (though I'd imagine the Iron Warriors had a similar vehicle, as I'd imagine they used something similar to the Ares...) - oh, "Tactical Squads" used Autocannons in their squads. Honestly, I think you'd be better off using Codex: Chaos Space Marines, with the Forge World suppliments that allow Dreadclaws and stuff, though you would loose out on things like Land Speeders. And, ah yes, Jetbikes were used by the Astartes and I think the regular bikes were largely for Scouts. So yes, Terminators and Jump-Pack units were much rarer (perhaps impose a 0-1/2 limit on yourself?), but MK.III power armour was used as a precursor to Terminator armoured troops so you could do a counts as conversion?

Also, the Imperial Aquila was only displayed on the armour of certain individuals granted the honour and the Emperor's Children legion as a whole. Power Weapons are described in Horus Rising as 'new'; I'm not sure if that's a new design, or if only certain things like Power/Lightning Fists/Claws and certain unique weapons were in use beforehand and Power Swords/Hammers/Lashes etc were only just being mass produced.

Edit: The Annihilator pattern Predator was also not in use, only the Destructor.

hs5ias
30-08-2010, 22:55
It also depends on how far pre-heresy you want to be. If you are going to be doing the forces of the later Great Crusade then they will be very similar to 41st millennium forces but with a few different weapons and pieces of kit, as noted by Wyrmwood.

Since you state you are going to be using MKII armour for a Luna Wolves legion I assume you are going to be doing an earlier Crusade army. Matters are rather different then, as much of the marines equipment was discovered during the Great Crusade. They will not have Land Raiders or Land Speeders, no Razorbacks, no jump-packs, no terminators.

Since yours will at this point still be a loyalist force I would use the Space Marine rather than the Chaos codex so you get the Imperial Marine special rules. No using the following though:

Librarians
Chaplains
Razorback
Terminator armour
Legion of the Damned
Jump-packs
Land Speeders
Thunderfire cannon
Land Raiders

I would say all the other stuff is OK. Remember that they were not that primitive when they started out. They did have Mars designing and building equipment for them, and would have needed a reasonable range of kit to do their jobs.

As a design decision go easy on power weapons though. I'd restrict them to HQ's only, no power weapons on every squad sergeant like usual. No artificer armour, hellfire rounds, relic weapons, storm shields, digital weapons, lightning claws or thunder hammers. It's hardly possible to avoid using Stormbolters, but just call them combi-bolters and restrict them to being mounted on vehicles.

If you do take Sternguard or Vanguard to represent legion veterans then do not use their Heroic Intervention or Special Issue Ammo rules. I would only use the basic Dreadnought, not the Venerable or Ironclad.

Even with all these restrictions marines are good enough in their most basic troops and kit that it will still be possible to make a perfectly viable army list.

Leftenant Gashrog
31-08-2010, 01:14
I don't recall ever reading that Land Speeders were a post-heresy development, the 2nd edition Chaos Codex explicitly stated that the traitors had lost the ability to maintain them after being driven into the Eye of Terror. This was a major point prior to 3rd edition: the traitor lists didn't represent the traitors as they were prior to and during the Heresy, but the rag-tag bands they had devolved into after it ended.


No using the following though:


I think you've got a bit over the top there, for starters the Land Raider has been described as being in use since the very start of the Great Crusade. Also MkII could cover any part of the Great Crusade, the Imperium was only half-way through replacing it with MkIV when the Heresy erupted (MkIII being a specialized variant unsuitable for standard use).

Garven Dreis
31-08-2010, 03:57
Bah, damned retcons. I remember that their post heresy discovery was the sole reason Chaos Marines couldn't own any.

Ya, I remember this, although now apparently the CSM Legions don't have the tech to maintain such advanced designs (Even though they maintain Land Raiders and even Titans).

AndrewGPaul
31-08-2010, 07:45
The Chaos Space Marine legions don't maintain Titans. They are, and always were, maintained by the Chaos Titan Legions, who presumably have their own logistics. As for Land Raiders, the main difference between them and Land Speeders is that the latter float. It ws specifically the anti-gravity technology that the Legions had trouble maintaining.

FabricatorGeneralMike
31-08-2010, 18:08
Why not use jump-packs, they where around just not as common as now a days. They where in the first HH book, when Horus killed the Emperor. Wow what a great way to start a book. Got to love Abnett. ;)

MOMUS
31-08-2010, 18:51
Wasn't the Land Speeder STC discovered in the same data cache as the Land Raider (hence the name)? If so, then they'd be available.

They are named after the tech magos who found them, Arkhan land.

Leftenant Gashrog
31-08-2010, 20:12
Land didn't actually find the STC for the Speeder, what he found was the STC for the anti-grav plates - the Land Speeder wasn't developed until after his death, but still before the end of the Great Crusade.

TheDarkDaff
01-09-2010, 11:19
Plasma Weapon have definately developed since the HH. In 2nd Ed the old variant had sustained fire but could vent onto the user while the newer model Imerial versions had different power levels. Low power was weaker than the old version but High power required a turn to recharge and it didn't have to vent at the user because the containment field was better.

Col. Tartleton
01-09-2010, 11:58
Basically I'd use Chaos Glory marked Chaos Space Marines even though it feels wrong.

Tacticals are squads of 20. Raptors are squads of 20. Terminators in squads of 10. Havocs in squads of 20. Chaos Lords for command. One as a Lieutenant in PA, one with the TDA in TDA.

Presuming maxed out FOC:

PA Lord (Company Commander)
TDA Lord (Lieutenant)

10 TDA
10 TDA
10 TDA
20 Tactical
20 Tactical
20 Tactical
20 Tactical
20 Tactical
20 Tactical
20 Raptors
20 Raptors
20 Raptors
20 Havocs
20 Havocs
20 Havocs

That's 272 marines which is about half a company. Basically its a Terminator commander with 30 Terminators and a Captain with a 20 man command squad and 220 other members of his company.

Sir_Turalyon
01-09-2010, 20:53
Everything present both in Codex:Space Marines and Codex:Chaos Space Marines was present. There were no of few infrantry-carried plasma cannons or multi meltas, but plenty of hand-held autocannons instead. Terminator armour well yes, but no thunder hammers, no storm shields and twin linked bolters instead of storm bolters. Land Speeders were present (Chaos Space Marines don't use them because they lack means to maintain them) but in early, unarmoured form - you may want to find 2nd edition speeders or even convert a 1st edition style flying couch from plastic one. Variants of Land Raiders were not known. Predators Annihilators were made after the Heresy (unless Imperium forgot how to make them and then rediscovered the technology). Razorbacks were unknown. Thunderfire cannons (or equivalents like thud guns) were present. Dreadnaught occupants had no time to become venerable yet.

Unless you were an Ultramarine, there was no codex organisaion; tactical and scout squads might be different or missing. Jump packs were rare and issued to elite assault troops, so keep assault squads mechanised and leave jumppacks to vanguards. You may want to use Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels or even Chaos marines codex to represent changes in organisation.

R0ot
01-09-2010, 21:13
but no thunder hammers

Where you getting this from? Eidolon of the Emperors Children had a large power hammer, Ferrus Manus had Forgebreaker.

Aiwass
01-09-2010, 21:19
I'm bored to read that CSM can't mantain landspeeder tech. Sure they're bussy killing around but if the DarkMech can mantain the Void Shields of the chaos titans, the LS grav engine can't be a problem... And no more "but DarkMech are not CSM". CSM in fluff still have techmarines, apothecarion and chaplains (zerkers with chaps? hell yes!) so WTF?

AndrewGPaul
01-09-2010, 21:24
Where you getting this from? Eidolon of the Emperors Children had a large power hammer, Ferrus Manus had Forgebreaker.

Those appear to be unique weapons, or at best prototypes for what would become the Thunder Hammer. No Chaos troops have ever had Thunder Hammers as a weapon option.

Sir_Turalyon
02-09-2010, 00:24
Those appear to be unique weapons, or at best prototypes for what would become the Thunder Hammer. No Chaos troops have ever had Thunder Hammers as a weapon option.

Or fancy power mauls. Or fance power maces, still used by CSM and appearing on models.

Only Thunder Hammers Chaos forces ever had were on Dreadnaughts (same applies to plasma cannons and multi meltas, apparently dreadnaughts were testbeds for later infrantry weapons). 2nd edition Codex:Chaos states that these were refined into terminator-sized weapons only after the Heresy.

R0ot
02-09-2010, 11:43
Those appear to be unique weapons, or at best prototypes for what would become the Thunder Hammer. No Chaos troops have ever had Thunder Hammers as a weapon option.

To say that the same "prototypes" couldn't have been used in the Sons of Horus wouldn't exactly be a stretch to the imagination though.

Sir_Turalyon
02-09-2010, 12:31
Characters with thunder hammers - hell why not. I was mainly refering to TH/SS terminator squads and stormshields in general.

paspinall
03-09-2010, 21:48
So with the new FW MK II armor variants I've been toying around with making a pre-heresy themed space marine army (was thinking of the Luna Wolves). What units in the current SM codex would have and would not have existed pre-heresy? I know Land Raider Crusaders were invented by Black Templars. I'd assume redeemers are fairly new. Vindicators codex says were invented during the early years of the Horus Heresy (makes me a sad panda). What about weapons? Wasn't plasma weaponry more prominent because they forgot how to produce them over time? Dreadnoughts? Terminator armor?

You'd think that 10,000 years and the only new technology is adding bolters to land raiders :wtf:

The Vindicators it depends what you read, I know one piece of printed background has them designed prior to the heresy and indeed the crusade but indicates that they saw next to no use.


Oh and also while I havent got a proper indication of what they were armed with, what about the robot maniples ? Could they reasonably be represented by some terminator rules ? perhaps even the TH SS rules given their entirely robotic nature and their weapons ? this is pure speculation on my part, does anyone have anything concrete on what armaments they had and their capablities ?

Joustarr
04-09-2010, 15:22
Maybe if you can, have a look at the original rogue trader figures. If you use what was available then as a rough guide, you can see how they've retconned the figures to be 'pre heresy'. If you can get your hands on them then your army will look pre-heresy as the majority of RT era marines were in mk6 (beakie) armour. Remember the Index Astartes wasn't written until after the heresy. So I aggres with those who say using the marines in the chaos codex is an option.

Malice313
05-09-2010, 08:23
From memory the Predator Annihilator was a post Heresy pattern, though it has appeared in pretty much every C-CSM.


Bah, damned retcons. I remember that their post heresy discovery was the sole reason Chaos Marines couldn't own any.

The Landspeeder was one of,the earliest vehicle kits available. The epic scale Space Marine, when the HH was first played out, featured Landspeeder models. other cool tech like Assault Canons, Thunder Hammers and Heavy Plasma Guns (Plasma Canons could only be mounted on Titans, etc) were retcon-ed out of Chaos.

+EDIT+
The Landspeeder wasn't the first vehicle available... the Iron Bullock is about 6 months older.

Leftenant Gashrog
05-09-2010, 14:49
The epic scale Space Marine, when the HH was first played out, featured Landspeeder models. .

Quoted for Truth, in fact if you were using the full Marine list from WD126 Land Speeders were actually mandatory.

AndrewGPaul
05-09-2010, 21:26
Heavy Plasma Guns (Plasma Canons could only be mounted on Titans, etc)

A heavy plasma gun is the same thing as a plasma cannon - the name only changed in 3rd ed. 40K.

Just to confuse matters, the titan-scale weapon sin 1st edition Epic had the same name as the infantry-scale weapons, but were significantly bigger. You had titan-scale lascannon, multi-meltas, etc (for example, this fellow (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Titans/MARS-PATTERN-REAVER-TITAN-BODY-ONLY.html) would have a lascannon, an autocannon and a multilauncher - same name as the weapon on a whirlwind). The Warlord titan could mount a super-heavy plasma cannon, but that's not the same thing as what you get in 40K today.

Sir_Turalyon
05-09-2010, 21:49
A heavy plasma gun is the same thing as a plasma cannon - the name only changed in 3rd ed. 40K.


Actualy, they used to be two different things, one was heavy infrantry weapon we know and love and other was heavy weapon kin to defence laser, mounted on fortifications and occasionaly vehicles. The large version never made it to any codex and was later phased out completly, by the 3rd edition both names were used for infrantry weapon.

absolon
05-09-2010, 22:21
the base landraider was around and available PreHeresy. At that time even the guard could have them. It wasn't until the Heresy that the big E issued the order restricting them to marines.

The other thing marines had were jet bike (m14 Bulluck).:)

Malice313
06-09-2010, 05:10
A heavy plasma gun is the same thing as a plasma cannon - the name only changed in 3rd ed. 40K.

Rogue Trader page 84 under the Heavy Weapons section Heavy Plasma Gun:
Sustained
0-20" 20-40" 7 D4 -2 2" 1"
Maximal
0-20" 20-40" 10 D10 -6 2" 1"

This profile was repeated in the Battle Manual on page 64 as Heavy Plasma Gun under the heading of Heavy Weapons, and the undated variant of this was printed under the Heavy Weapons section of the 2nd ed Wargear book on page 37 entitled Heavy Plasma Gun.

Yet then on page 87 of the Rogue Trader, under the Very Heavy Weapons section there is an entry for the Plasma Cannon:
No variable fire and takes 2 rounds to recharge
0-20" 20-72" 8 10+D10 -6 2"
Notably it has no H penalty because it is not man portable.

So yes you are right they are "the same thing". So similar in fact that they necessitated different classification and profiles to differentiate between the two.:rolleyes:

Jonman
06-09-2010, 15:30
Go to BoLS downloads section and download the Warhammer 30000 book, it tells you everything. :)

DeSnifter
06-09-2010, 15:54
The vindicator now has it as both sides using it. GW wanted to have both sides buy the kit after the money was poured into it. Originally, the vindicator was developed right after the heresy to help loyalist forces drive the traitors from their heretical worlds. It was designed to give close up support to oust the traitors from their strongholds

Leftenant Gashrog
06-09-2010, 21:44
Originally, the vindicator was developed right after the heresy to help loyalist forces drive the traitors from their heretical worlds.
Nope, originally it was developed mid-heresy and was in widespread use by both sides within months - the first 40k scale Vindicator seen was an Emperors Children one from the Siege of Terra. It was years later before GW decided to retcon them into being loyalist only. The most recent retcon was more of an un-retcon.