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View Full Version : Do the 7th Edition "Killer Combos" still work in 8th?



Zarryiosiad
30-08-2010, 23:25
As none of the army books have been released, and we're all still using the 7th edition versions of our armies, my question is, are the killer combos of 7th edition still relevant in the new edition? I'm talking about things like the SAD army, the Thorek Gunline, the Warrior Priest on War Altar/Steam Tank gunline, or the Masque of Slaanesh/Keeper of Secrets combo? One list has already fallen by the wayside, and that's the 14 Power Dice Tzeentch army.

Have any of you tried to recreate the success of these (one-time) super armies, and if you have, how well have they performed for you?

Zarryiosiad

SiNNiX
30-08-2010, 23:29
The Thorek gunline is still very potent, as is the Warrior Priest on War Altar/Steam Tank gunline. LM Slann lists actually got buffed with the new edition, so Slann lists are more scary than ever now. Every daemon list got nerfed, including Masque/KOS lists. We'll see what happens there.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
31-08-2010, 02:32
Every daemon list got nerfed, including Masque/KOS lists.

Not necessarily true. Mono-Nurgle took a bit of a hit, but I think Mono-Khorne is stronger than ever thanks to supporting attacks and getting more than 2 dispel dice (most of the time).

As for other combos:

HIGH ELVES- The big unit of Dragon Princes led by the Battle Banner won't be the auto-win unit it used to be, as Steadfast will probably negate the Battle Banner's awesomeness. Then again, High Elves gained another killer combo in the form of lots of elite, rerolling infantry and Teclis.

DARK ELVES- The Ring got nerfed, but the Druchii can still easily take the Dragon + Hydra (or Dragon + double Hydra) combo and have it work really wel. I'd say that most, if not all of the killer combos the DE used in 7th ed will still work quite well in 8th.

SKAVEN- Aka the army that was most likely made with 8th ed in mind. Moving on.

EMPIRE- The War Altar is better than ever thanks do Prayers being able to go off with IF (without going out of control, I might add). That, and the Steam Tank's boost to toughness 10 is just plain mean.

VAMPIRE COUNTS- Ummm....

Kevlar
31-08-2010, 04:41
Skaven SAD didn't really work well in 7th. In 8th it certainly won't work. With BSB rerolls affecting panic you have to destroy units not just 25 percent of them.

Plus the ratling gun and warp lightning spell, staples of the SAD were both nerfed big time.

Other army elements got a huge boost with steadfast and stuff like the plague furnace, abomination, doomwheel, etc.

Skaven can now build a competent close combat army so the SAD is pretty much dead.

Lord Inquisitor
31-08-2010, 04:56
Every daemon list got nerfed, including Masque/KOS lists. We'll see what happens there.

Not nerfed at all, the Ld bomb is really just about as potent in 8th as it was in 7th, while the boost to the BSB has hurt, with steadfast the Ld bomb is so much more important. Net result is that the Ld bomb is just as viable and I've got two tournament wins with it so far to prove it (plus my tactical genius ;))

Dag
31-08-2010, 05:16
Not nerfed at all, the Ld bomb is really just about as potent in 8th as it was in 7th, while the boost to the BSB has hurt, with steadfast the Ld bomb is so much more important. Net result is that the Ld bomb is just as viable and I've got two tournament wins with it so far to prove it (plus my tactical genius ;))

wtb tactical genius, i lose mine whenever i get drunk at tournies.

aka....every single time...

Marshal Torrick
31-08-2010, 06:01
I think it's safe to say that the traditional VC Summon steamroller build is DOA.

KillbotFactory
31-08-2010, 06:01
Of the builds you listed the only one I think that is still ridiculous is the Thorek gunline. Empire can make better lists than taking a Alter/Tank lists that were run in 7th.

The masq/KoS list while still very potent is nowhere near the power level it was back in 7th. It was basically an auto win against half of the armies. Random charges makes Slaanesh much weaker and on top of that add the BSB rerolls means it needs a tactical genius like Lord Inquistor to win battles and not just somebody who picked up the army book.

SiNNiX
31-08-2010, 06:24
Daemons are twice as squishy now as they were in 7th, so I'd still recommend not going that route. In my opinion, if you're still setting on sticking with DOC in 8th Edition, you might want to go with a Khorne army. That's not to say Masque isn't a huge help, but I just don't see DOC as a big threat in this edition at all. Every game I've seen them in so far, they have been beaten pretty badly.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-08-2010, 10:14
DARK ELVES- The Ring got nerfed, but the Druchii can still easily take the Dragon + Hydra (or Dragon + double Hydra) combo and have it work really wel. I'd say that most, if not all of the killer combos the DE used in 7th ed will still work quite well in 8th.

If you want to go down that route don't forget the Black Dragon Egg for another/alternative breath weapon attack. I think DE could actually build if not around then certainly with breath weapons very much in mind. They will help devastate some of those blocks before your otherwise squishy infantry gets overrun by numbers.

Archaon
31-08-2010, 10:23
I don't think that killer units that rely on dealing out huge amounts of damage work that well in 8th anymore because infantry has gotten such a huge boost.

Take the steam tank for example.. in 7th it was a monster against certain armies that didn't have high strength ranged attacks like cannons and bolt throwers so you just rolled over and proceeded to destroy unit by unit.

Now it has T10 but you can always wound on a 6 which means that even bows have become a threat to them. A unit of 20 is sure to inflict at least a wound or two in ranged combat which means the ST loses effectiveness.

Now take a cheap unit of 30-40 infantry models and watch the ST die slowly.

Massed infantry hase become the new killer combo and anything that's developing to become a "killer combo" will surely involve a big infantry unit.

Azhrar
31-08-2010, 10:26
The problem isn't just the wounding on 6's, it's the fact that most things that manage to wound will be saved on the 1+ save.

It really takes a stupid stupid amount of hits to reliably take down, atleast as WoC.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-08-2010, 10:30
Now it has T10 but you can always wound on a 6 which means that even bows have become a threat to them. A unit of 20 is sure to inflict at least a wound or two in ranged combat which means the ST loses effectiveness.


Not really. 20 bows will take a couple of turns(at least) to put a single wound on a Steamtank. Remember, you need to hit first, then you need to roll a 6 to wound and then it needs to fail it's 1+ armour save. Assuming you are hitting on 4+ you have a 1 in 72 chance of inflicting a wound with a bow. That's pretty bad odds. 72 High Elf archers would run you a nice handy 792 points, not really a cost effective way of hurting Steamtanks! Sure, you can get lucky but the whole "everything wounds on 6s" seems to be overestimated to deal with tough targets.

Archaon
31-08-2010, 10:31
Yeah.. the one army that has almost no shooting on its own.

I'm talking about 10-20 shots a turn from a single unit.. there's bound to be several 6s to wound a most likely at least one-two 1s for the saving throw so there goes.

ftayl5
31-08-2010, 10:31
VAMPIRE COUNTS- Ummm....

Indeed. I was playing a friend who was using VC just the other day. In all but one magic phase he would have had more than 12 dice but couldn't and then he went to spam raise dead, rolled a 2, end of his (vamp lord) magic phase :)

He learnt from that mistake of course but still, no more spamming :)

As for Steam Tanks, one (combined with some swordsmen) charged a unit of (40) Gnoblars who stood and shot the Tank, almost killed it.

Novrain
31-08-2010, 12:43
tbh a Thorek gunline doesnt work quite as well now.

He got nerfed in the Faq about his rerolling and you are likely to have less time to shoot the opposing player than in 7th. More powerful warmachines sure, but less time to use them in.

PeG
31-08-2010, 14:04
the Stank can be killed (and buffed) with magic which is a major difference from before meaning that most armies at least have a chance of taking it out. Lore of metal or death have good chances of success.

As for daemons they do seem to have problems in this ed due to expensive models and enemies being steadfast. On the other hand everyone have stopped complaining about them so I might even expand my force outside monoslaanesh.

TheKingInYellow
31-08-2010, 15:24
Plus the ratling gun and warp lightning spell, staples of the SAD were both nerfed big time.

How did the Ratling Gun get nerfed?

Grimmeth
31-08-2010, 15:40
How did the Ratling Gun get nerfed?

Didn't need to roll to hit in the old Army Book.

Kevlar
31-08-2010, 17:13
Didn't need to roll to hit in the old Army Book.

All hits rolled were automatic, and the way you rolled the dice it was easy to control its misfires. Basically if you rolled a 5 or 6 stop rolling, any other doubles were not bad misfires, so you could risk it.

The warlock engineers went from casting 2d6 str 5 magic missles to only one of them being allowed 1d6+2, the rest just get 1d6, so their effectiveness was cut in half as well.

Sandals
31-08-2010, 17:26
That's more of an army book nerf than a 7th - 8th transition nerf though

decker_cky
31-08-2010, 17:39
But those changes still prevent that list from being effective.

Are empire lists even taking the war altar anymore? Not that it's bad, but doesn't it prevent you from taking the wizard lord/arch lector + trinkets combo in most games?

Ring of Hotek is still incredibly potent for the DE, but it has to be used in a different way (pegasus rider with mundane 1+ armour save chasing mages while hiding from shooting).

I think Thorek is the main one that'll still work without changing how lists worked, since by his nature he's just a huge boost to anything in the dwarf army.

Kevlar
31-08-2010, 17:54
That's more of an army book nerf than a 7th - 8th transition nerf though

True, which is why i said the skaven s.a.d. did not really work any more at the end of 7th. Bsb changes only magnified the weaknesses.

Grax
31-08-2010, 18:34
Fear/Terror is not the game winner it used to be, and neither are small units of powerful cavalry...in fact, 'nothing' is really the game winner it used to be. In 8th edition, there are very few individual units/powers/spells that can flat out win the game for you. It really takes a combination of several units working together to achieve this.

I've seen Vampire Counts magic spam work excellently in 8th. In fact, it was a VC player that won the local Ard Boyz. A big difference from 7th, however, is that he didn't spam summoning spells. Instead, he spammed the extra movement spells, combined with the ghouls extra movement ability. The result was that he managed to lock down most of his opponent's larger units by turn 2, and then used powerful cavalry to mop them up one by one.

Spamming Hydras still works well for Dark Elves, although it won't make you many friends. The abundance of flaming attacks (thanks to the cheap banner) helps against them a bit, but only for the one unit that has the banner. That's the unit you hit with Purple Sun (God, I hate that spell).

With high elves it's pheonix guard, large blocks of spearmen/seaguard, and Teclis all the way.

With Ogres it's a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE block of Bulls or Ironguts consisting of at least 10 Ogres (and I've seen up to 18), kept within range of a Tyrant, BSB, and a Butcher/Slaughtermaster for buffs. If it's a unit of Bulls, the Tyrant should be in the unit. If it's Ironguts, then it doesn't matter, as long as they're close.

With Empire, Skaven, and Dwarves the best choice is a gunline, with a few large blocks of infantry to back them up.

With lizardmen and WoC it's a balanced approach, countering your opponent's moves with special/rare units and magic, while relying on your superior core to do most of the fighting.

Daemons need to put out as much damage as possible, while staying resilient. Flamers, Bloodcrushers, and/or buffed bloodletters will certainly do the job.

I'm not sure about Beasts of Chaos, Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Orcs/Goblins, or Bretonnians, as I haven't really seen them play.

TheKingInYellow
31-08-2010, 18:35
Didn't need to roll to hit in the old Army Book.

Huh, my Skaven opponent doesn't roll to hit in 8th... I might have to have a word with him on that.

Kevlar
31-08-2010, 22:21
Huh, my Skaven opponent doesn't roll to hit in 8th... I might have to have a word with him on that.

Yeah the new way it kinda stinks. You roll for the number of shots, then you have to roll again to see how many hit. They turned it into a hellblaster.

GenerationTerrorist
31-08-2010, 22:40
The WoC Cavalry charge list got messed up a bit, due to the general downgrading of the carnage that Cavalry in general can cause.

By that sort of list, I mean something along the lines of 4 units of Flail-toting Marauder Horsemen and 4 units of Knights.

Dag
01-09-2010, 01:55
The WoC Cavalry charge list got messed up a bit, due to the general downgrading of the carnage that Cavalry in general can cause.

By that sort of list, I mean something along the lines of 4 units of Flail-toting Marauder Horsemen and 4 units of Knights.

you mean an idiots army who wouldnt ever win a single 'real' battle?

cav never dominated battlefields.... any empire that lasted was built on the backs of 'core' disciplined infantry who handled their buisiness.

cavalry armies were stupid to see and unfun to play against. period. much like gunlines

vs gunline "ok i made it across and his cannon didnt do anything, i win"
or.... "gg turn 2 as all your artillery hit"

vs cav army "turn2 charge no matter what, ok so you killed 15 guys, i killed 1... gg even though infantry is trained for this and knows theres 40 more guys waiting to bitch slap those knights once their big charge is done? oh wait chaos knights dont even care to charge anymore lol....."

i <3 the cheese lists that were the most unfluffy, unfun things in the world.

if you want to run forward and fight on turn 1 / 2, just play rock paper scissors.

GenerationTerrorist
01-09-2010, 02:52
Dude. You need to calm down!
Where exactly did I say that I ran a Cavalry army?