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TheTrueSloth
31-08-2010, 12:14
Hey guys

No rulebook to hand at the moment but I wanted to check something.

In a game I saw in one of my local gaming clubs between a couple of the younger players, one of them (the only person in the group with Bretonnians sadly) said that their unit of knights led by a paladin with "The mane of the purebreed" gave the unit the "devastating charge" special rule. I checked in the FAQ (which is as much as I can do) but I couldn't see any reference that
tells us that happens and - because he didn't have the army book to hand - we couldn't check it. Certainly I have never heard of it, I thought the Mane only gave the mounts in a unit +1 strength, not +1 attack? Has one of us missed something?

Additionally, while trawling through the Brett FAQ, I found this one:


Q. A unit with the Peasantís Duty may use the Leadership of a
nearby unit of knights. If that unit of knights is within 12" of the
General, but the Peasants are not themselves within 12" of the
General, can the peasants use the boosted Leadership of the knights
(i.e. the Generalís Leadership)? (p42)
A. No.

This one is more of a logic orientated question, but why the hell not? If IP changes the Leadership of models in a unit, why wouldn't the peasants get to use the new Leadership of the knights in the unit? Did GW ever justify this one? :confused:

Toodles

McBaine
31-08-2010, 12:53
As a Bretonnia player myself I can assure you: the mane of the purebreed doesnt give devastating charge. You remembered right, it gives the horses +1 S on the first charge, nothing else.
He may misinterpreted this, or he was cheating, but whatever the case may have been, it was wrong.

Odin
31-08-2010, 13:00
This one is more of a logic orientated question, but why the hell not? If IP changes the Leadership of models in a unit, why wouldn't the peasants get to use the new Leadership of the knights in the unit? Did GW ever justify this one? :confused:

Toodles

That makes perfect sense. The knights are close enough to the general to be inspired by his leadership, and the peasants are close enough to the knights to be inspired by their leadership, but the peasants are not close enough to the general to be inspired by his leadership. Nothing else makes any sense.

TheTrueSloth
31-08-2010, 13:44
As a Bretonnia player myself I can assure you: the mane of the purebreed doesnt give devastating charge. You remembered right, it gives the horses +1 S on the first charge, nothing else.
He may misinterpreted this, or he was cheating, but whatever the case may have been, it was wrong.

Ah, gotcha. Knowing him it was probably more likely an honest mistake, I'll make sure to mention it next time. Thank you :)


That makes perfect sense. The knights are close enough to the general to be inspired by his leadership, and the peasants are close enough to the knights to be inspired by their leadership, but the peasants are not close enough to the general to be inspired by his leadership. Nothing else makes any sense.

Conceptually that makes a lot of sense actually, I hadn't thought about it that way. But sticking with the conceptual idea, the knights are inspired by the General to act braver and spur themselves on to greater acts of courage and heroism in typical knightly fashion. The peasants, by logical extension would also be furthered on to be as brave and courageous as the knights who fight to defend them, perhaps through sheer love, awe or other motivation. By logical extension, it also seems possible that the peasants, who would have acted as brave as the knights without the General nearby anyway, would simply try to "up their game" even further.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just suggesting a counter possibility. On a rules front, I can't see this making any sense though.

Toodles

Haravikk
31-08-2010, 14:23
You're right that RAW it seems like peasants should be further inspired, as it seems a sensible knock-on effect due to the way inspiring presence is worded (similarly to the way it seems to apply to Occam's Mindrazor), but if the FAQ says no then unfortunately that's a no :(


You remembered right, it gives the horses +1 S on the first charge, nothing else.
It's a bit crap for 25 points though which is a shame seeing as how the warhorses aren't usually very heavy hitters anyway, I could understand it if it were simply on the charge but for one-use it seems a bit weedy. That said on the occasions when I got to use my cavalry in my old High Elf army the warhorses seemed to be the only ones that killed anything but I suspect that's terrible luck on my part and not representative really :D

TheTrueSloth
31-08-2010, 14:44
You're right that RAW it seems like peasants should be further inspired, as it seems a sensible knock-on effect due to the way inspiring presence is worded (similarly to the way it seems to apply to Occam's Mindrazor), but if the FAQ says no then unfortunately that's a no :(

That's pretty much the way I feel about it actually, I was quite looking forward to the peasant "counter attack" army (I need to start a new WHFB army and for me to convert my deamons from fantasy to 40K would cost nearly as much as just doing a new army from scratch :shifty:). But like you said, since the FAQ says no, it means no. Ah well, guess I shall most likely look toward my other option for amusement, the lance frenzy (as it sounds, just the entire list filled with blocks of knights).


It's a bit crap for 25 points though which is a shame seeing as how the warhorses aren't usually very heavy hitters anyway, I could understand it if it were simply on the charge but for one-use it seems a bit weedy. That said on the occasions when I got to use my cavalry in my old High Elf army the warhorses seemed to be the only ones that killed anything but I suspect that's terrible luck on my part and not representative really :D

You're not alone, the last time I took up fantasy seriously a few years back I went into a couple of doubles tournaments with my Woodie Fast Cav/Skirmisher army backed by a HE cavalry force - the horsies killed way more than their weight in plastic :D

Best not to speak of how badly my Branchwraith did though...she should not be getting destroyed by Skeletal champions in a challenge on a regular basis :shifty:

Toodles

EDIT: On a side note, how does a "horde formation" work with the Lance formation? Do you need 6 wide cavalry or 10 wide? (just out of curiosity, there's really not much tactical advantage I can see).

Toodles

theunwantedbeing
31-08-2010, 15:30
EDIT: On a side note, how does a "horde formation" work with the Lance formation? Do you need 6 wide cavalry or 10 wide? (just out of curiosity, there's really not much tactical advantage I can see).

Lances are 3 wide.
Hoardes need to be 10 wide.

15 is the max size for bretonnian knight units as well.
15 strong lance results in 12 riders attacking and 11 steeds.
15 strong hoarde results in all 15 riders attacking and 10 steeds.

The big difference being you'll get all the lance attacks on an enemy frontage of anything as low as 25mm, with the hoarde your needing an enemy frontage of 200mm (or at least 175 to get at least as many rider attacks as the lance generates).

The lance get's a big rank bonus over the hoarde, also you can run more than 1 into an enemy hoarde where that's rather implausable with 2 of your own knight hoardes.

The lance is just plain better.

TheTrueSloth
31-08-2010, 19:03
*snip*


Oh, absolutely. Just wanted to confirm what I thought was the answer on that one.

Toodles

Surgency
31-08-2010, 22:28
That said on the occasions when I got to use my cavalry in my old High Elf army the warhorses seemed to be the only ones that killed anything but I suspect that's terrible luck on my part and not representative really :D

oh no, my Brets kill less then their horses do as well. I think its a flaw in Brettonian Knightly training, really

Tzeentch Lover
01-09-2010, 00:02
This one is more of a logic orientated question, but why the hell not? If IP changes the Leadership of models in a unit, why wouldn't the peasants get to use the new Leadership of the knights in the unit? Did GW ever justify this one? :confused:

Brett Knights don't like wasting their time playing Telephone with peasents. ;)

JonnyTHM
01-09-2010, 02:32
This one is more of a logic orientated question, but why the hell not? If IP changes the Leadership of models in a unit, why wouldn't the peasants get to use the new Leadership of the knights in the unit? Did GW ever justify this one? :confused:


You want to know the scary one? This gets worse when you consider the question of a single knight that is within the range of the general. What would it mean for him to not pass on his leadership?

diggerydoom
01-09-2010, 10:05
Horses always do better than the riders-I wish I could field units of Chaos Steeds or Barded Nightmares. At strength 4 they are better than most armies basic infantry...

TheTrueSloth
01-09-2010, 13:07
You want to know the scary one? This gets worse when you consider the question of a single knight that is within the range of the general. What would it mean for him to not pass on his leadership?

It would probably mean I would have to sit down with a bag of mini cheddars and a bottle of coke and sigh.


Brett Knights don't like wasting their time playing Telephone with peasents

Lol, I chuckled so hard reading this one. You could almost imagine the conversation about "how the hell a peasant managed to figure out how to use a phone" :D

Toodles

Haravikk
01-09-2010, 16:53
Horses always do better than the riders-I wish I could field units of Chaos Steeds or Barded Nightmares. At strength 4 they are better than most armies basic infantry...
My brother had a nasty case whereby his Wood Elf Highborn on Stag nearly lost a challenge to a lowly Hammerer champion (who would have made short work of a his elf's wounds), as the Highborn missed every single attack with his magical lance, only a lucky wound from the Stag avoided the bloody retaliation of my stalwart Dwarf!