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Yellow Commissar
31-08-2010, 22:31
My friend was telling me about his game last Friday. In it, Throgg (or whatever the Troll Kings name is) used his Special Vomit breath weapon attack on Grimgor in a challenge and killed him. Seemed odd to me, so I looked up the rules, and I am still undecided if this is allowed.

The Breath Weapon Close Combat Attack rules say it can be used on one enemy unit in base contact.

The Challenge rules say these two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other.

The Combined Units rules say that "whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save the exceptions listed here. I assume the exceptions are just the ones listed within the Combined Units section.

Thing is, page 5 does say that a lone character can be considered a unit. It seems that once he joins another unit, though, that they count as a single unit. If so, then the breath weapon would be prevented as the models in the challenge can only direct attacks at each other. On the other hand, the attacks could presumable all be directed at the character in the challenge, but this seems to violate the combined units rules.

Perhaps there is some other rule I have missed that pertains to this situation.

Opinions?

mishari26
31-08-2010, 22:36
if the breath weapon is directed at the enemy challenger... but ends up hitting others in the process.. is this breaking the challenge rule? doesn't seem like it does necessarily.

AMWOOD co
31-08-2010, 23:44
GW addressed this in their FAQ on the main rulebook. Damage from (thunder)stomp and breath attacks that come from models in a challenge are all directed at the model it is in a challenge with. Throgg's breath attack would thus hit Grimgor for 2D6 S5 no armour save hits in addition to his D6 S5 no armour save hits for his regular vomit attack. A truly nasty combination.

Citadel97501
01-09-2010, 00:01
Oh and then stomp on the body. . .

Casshole
01-09-2010, 04:17
Makes perfect sense to me. It would make less sense for him to be able to vomit on someone outside the challenege, given the fluff of the challenge system.

Trolls are nasty buggers, and Throgg is the worst of them. Definitely found it best to decline his challenges until he uses his mega barf.

Yellow Commissar
01-09-2010, 14:32
Thanks guys, I missed the FAQ.

If a close combat breath weapon can be used in a challenge, can it be directed entirely against an enemy character in base contact if the model breathing is not in a challenge?

Dragoon999
01-09-2010, 15:11
Thanks guys, I missed the FAQ.

If a close combat breath weapon can be used in a challenge, can it be directed entirely against an enemy character in base contact if the model breathing is not in a challenge?

Hmmm interesting since he can be singled out, since Look out sir only applies to shooting and magic phase........unfortunate for him RAW says yes.

Breath weapon rules clearly state it is considered an extra close combat attack-therefore making it eligible to target characters. OUCH!!!

O.K. I'm done :)

Caladin
01-09-2010, 18:27
I believe breath weapon hits are distributed as shooting hits. In a challenge they all go on the only viable target - the challenger(/ee). Outside a challenge they would be distributed.

Dragoon999
01-09-2010, 18:30
I believe breath weapon hits are distributed as shooting hits. In a challenge they all go on the only viable target - the challenger(/ee). Outside a challenge they would be distributed.

That would be true except breath weapons used in close combat-specifically states it is considered a close combat attack-therefore shooting rules do not apply.

a18no
01-09-2010, 19:07
Oh and then stomp on the body. . .

Not sure you can stomp a dead body. Cause in the challenge section and in the multi attack section, they say that if the ennemy is dead before all attack are made, they are lost. So if the breath weapon killed the guy, no stomp for you.

Valek
02-09-2010, 09:22
Ok, another brainbreaker

Theagonist on his chariot challenges my Dark Elf Lord, with the Dragon Egg:

What happens with the breath attacks?

Fact: I can use it in the challenge,

BUT can i direct all hits on him or do i have to randomize between theagonist and his chariot AND what is the ratio 50/50??

thx for clearifying as this is going to give big discussions in the future.

Regards

valek

Tiomat
02-09-2010, 17:06
Hi.
Got some related questions regarding the Skaven Plauge Furnace special attacks in challenges, that I think are kind of related to the "Breath Weapon in challenges" discussion.
Scenraio:
Plauge Priest on Furnace is in a challange with an enemy chacter to the front and is in combat with another unit to it's right. All Plauge Monks in the Furnace's unit are dead.

- What units are affected by Enshrouded by Fog?

...any unit (friend or foe) touching the Plauge Furnace suffers D6 automatic hits distributed as per shooting...
We played it that both enemy units, but not the furnace itself were affected because of:

...This includes the unit pushing the Plauge Furnace, but not the Plauge Priest riding it...


- The wrecker attack, can I choose either the challenged character or the other unit?

...The Wrecker Attack causes an artillery dice's worth of Strength 5 hits against a single enemy unit in base contact. All hits are distributed as per shooting...

We played it like I could choose any unit in base contact, because it's not one of the Furnace's normal attacks, but an effect that "happens last in the battle".
In our case the challenged enemy character had been killed allready, so it would have been lost if I couldn't have targeted the other unit.
Also if it's relevant: Skaven FAQ:


Q. Can I choose not to make an attack with the Plague Furnace’s
Wrecker? (p49)
A. No.

/Tiomat

mishari26
03-09-2010, 06:57
Not sure you can stomp a dead body. Cause in the challenge section and in the multi attack section, they say that if the ennemy is dead before all attack are made, they are lost. So if the breath weapon killed the guy, no stomp for you.

why not use the Overkill rule? and stomp all you want? I thought that was what it meant anyway.. reducing the corpse to pulp to demoralize the enemy more :evilgrin:

Casshole
03-09-2010, 08:07
For the theogonist, it would be randomized between him and his waltar, 1-4 the waltar, 5-6 the theogonist. In the challenge, you fight him and his mount, in this case the war altar. That is if the "Districuted as shooting" clause still takes effect, as someone mentioned in a challenge it may be different. I havent looked intot hat as much yet

Soulshade
03-09-2010, 09:24
For the theogonist, it would be randomized between him and his waltar, 1-4 the waltar, 5-6 the theogonist. In the challenge, you fight him and his mount, in this case the war altar. That is if the "Districuted as shooting" clause still takes effect, as someone mentioned in a challenge it may be different. I havent looked intot hat as much yet

Not quiet correct. A chariot driven by a character is treated like a monstrous mount. So you choose what to hit. Him or the chariot. Randomising only happens for shooting now.

shadow hunter
03-09-2010, 10:36
In referance to the wrecker ball in a challenge post above - i thought the wrecker ball can only attack in its forward arc - so couldn't hit a unit in its flank.

tmarichards
03-09-2010, 11:04
why not use the Overkill rule? and stomp all you want? I thought that was what it meant anyway.. reducing the corpse to pulp to demoralize the enemy more :evilgrin:

Unfortunately because all attacks go in initiative order, if the model you're fighting in a challenge is killed before you get your Thunderstomp then you can't use it- there's no-one to allocate attacks against. It's the same as if a rider kills a unit champion before his mont gets to fight. Doesn't necessarily make sense with regards to fluff, but that'sa different and irrelevant issue.

Bit of a shame for a dragon really...

Warwizard91
03-09-2010, 20:59
It doesn't say your mount can't gain overkill against him it just says the mount can't attack other models.

Jericho
03-09-2010, 22:01
The mount can gain overkill if there is still a character to fight at the mount's initiative step. If he's dead, you can't kill him any more dead than he already is, thus wasting the mount's attacks (and stomp if applicable).

Gaargod
03-09-2010, 22:31
Oh? I don't have my book on me, but i'm fairly sure you can designate your attacks even at a dead model. Its dead sure, but there's no kill like overkill.

Its just normally there's no point.

Korraz
03-09-2010, 22:40
Not any more. Dead at the initiative Step is dead at the initiative step.

theunwantedbeing
03-09-2010, 22:45
Oh? I don't have my book on me, but i'm fairly sure you can designate your attacks even at a dead model. Its dead sure, but there's no kill like overkill.

Its just normally there's no point.

Dead models are immediately removed.
So there isn't a model to attack.

Tiomat
04-09-2010, 11:51
In referance to the wrecker ball in a challenge post above - i thought the wrecker ball can only attack in its forward arc - so couldn't hit a unit in its flank.

Ah, true, guess we played that wrong then :).
Still, lets say a unit to the front was left after the challenged enemy was killed, would I be able to let it loose against that one?

/Tiomat