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View Full Version : Spell Duplication with Loremaster and Seerstaff



Toonces
01-09-2010, 20:39
You can't duplicate spells (signatures and old school 'default' spells) in your army unless, as the rulebook puts it, the spell is not generated randomly.

I'm fairly sure that this means Loremaster (say from Teclis) and Seerstaff (HE magic item that lets you select spells) allows you circumvent this, but I wonder to what degree.

If you have, say, Teclis (Loremaster), a Mage with Seerstaff (choose spells) and a Mage with just plain random rolling for spells and you took, say, Lore of Beasts, could you have Teclis and Seerstaff mage pick Amber Spear and then, if the random die comes up with Amber Spear, have that on your third mage?

Loopstah
01-09-2010, 20:51
Teclis is a loremaster so he would know all 7 spells from the Lore of Beasts because he has no choice about it.

Your Mage with the Seerstaff can pick any two spells from the lore he wants as the item allows him to.

Your third mage can roll for his two spells and as no other mage has rolled for any of the spells he can potentially roll any of the 6 spells and keep whatever he rolls.

So yes, Teclis knows Amber Spear automatically, the Seerstaff Mage can pick it and then the third Mage could roll it.

Grey Hunter 88
01-09-2010, 23:02
Thank God.

I had someone argue that since Teto Eko knew all the spells already, none of the other skink priests could know anything but the signature spell. =P

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 01:09
Teclis is a loremaster so he would know all 7 spells from the Lore of Beasts because he has no choice about it.

Your Mage with the Seerstaff can pick any two spells from the lore he wants as the item allows him to.

Your third mage can roll for his two spells and as no other mage has rolled for any of the spells he can potentially roll any of the 6 spells and keep whatever he rolls.

So yes, Teclis knows Amber Spear automatically, the Seerstaff Mage can pick it and then the third Mage could roll it.

All of these are wrong.

1. the seer staff does not grant you any specific spells, it allows you to choose 2-it does not guarantee they will be available (therefore he does have a choice) He should have chose a diff. lore when he took teclis. Otherwise he wasted the staff.

2.your 3rd mage also has to take a 2nd lore because teclis took all of the spells from his lore.

no one listed here is denied a choice of which spells they choose nor have you bought any specific spells.

Also neither the army book nor the spell lore says otherwise.

Example: I cannot take 2 slann with lore of life with loremaster and both know all spells....1 of them is screwed.

O.K. I'm done:cool:

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 01:11
Thank God.

I had someone argue that since Teto Eko knew all the spells already, none of the other skink priests could know anything but the signature spell. =P

They were correct. sorry this is one we don't agree on....neither do the rules.

Grey Hunter 88
02-09-2010, 01:25
Pg 490: The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:

"Such as" indicates these are examples, not the only conditions. It says if you roll a spell twice, you have to select another one. There is no rolling for the staff or for Teclis, nor are their spell choices random.

"The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly"

Clear enough to me. They don't make you roll for lore, so there is nothing random about choosing it. Therefore, exception to the rule.

For the record as well, Skink Priests have no choice over which lore to take, so doesn't it seem a little daft that including Te'tto Eko means you cannot take any other skink priests (with spells) in the army?

Regardless, rules are very clear. Anytime you are not rolling for a spell randomly, duplicates are allowed. =)

Cheers

someone2040
02-09-2010, 01:57
You can still take Skinks, just that they have to use the default spell.

It all comes down to order, does Tetto'Eko immediately take up all the spells in the lore, or can the other Skinks roll first and then Tetto'Eko knows everything.

This is just one of the things I don't like about the new magic. Not being able to have duplicate spells unless you can abuse loremaster is just silly. Just another non-scaling part of the magic phase.

stripsteak
02-09-2010, 02:01
You can still take Skinks, just that they have to use the default spell.

It all comes down to order, does Tetto'Eko immediately take up all the spells in the lore, or can the other Skinks roll first and then Tetto'Eko knows everything.

This is just one of the things I don't like about the new magic. Not being able to have duplicate spells unless you can abuse loremaster is just silly. Just another non-scaling part of the magic phase.

you only can't duplicate randomly determined spells. tetto'eko does not interfere with any other skinks spell availability.

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 09:29
All of these are wrong.

1. the seer staff does not grant you any specific spells, it allows you to choose 2-it does not guarantee they will be available (therefore he does have a choice) He should have chose a diff. lore when he took teclis. Otherwise he wasted the staff.

Yes, you choose the spells, you do not roll randomly for them so they are still available. You are wrong.



2.your 3rd mage also has to take a 2nd lore because teclis took all of the spells from his lore.


No, Teclis has not rolled for any of the spells and none of them were selected randomly, you don't have to pick another lore. You are wrong.



Example: I cannot take 2 slann with lore of life with loremaster and both know all spells....1 of them is screwed.

O.K. I'm done:cool:

What a surprise, wrong again, you can take as many Slann as you want with the lore of Life knowing all the spells because none of them roll for any of the spells and therefore none select them randomly.

The rules state that you can know a spell a million times on a million wizards as long as they are not generated randomly. None of the examples above involve random spell generation so they are all exceptions. As a clue, rolling for spells is generally considered random.

Paraelix
02-09-2010, 10:34
There is no ruling preventing two models in your army having Loremaster of the same Lore and both getting the full complement of spells... It just means that no other model may roll spells for that lore...

Ergo, VCs can have 3 Vamps with Loremaster (Vampire) and multiple Necros with chosen spells... And everyone can still cast happily.

Avian
02-09-2010, 10:38
It just means that no other model may roll spells for that lore...
It doesn't mean that at all.

Paraelix
02-09-2010, 10:41
It doesn't mean that at all.

SIGH! My apologies, I'm tired and was getting cofused... A further model could then roll for the spells.

Avian
02-09-2010, 10:44
Several further models could then rolls for the spells. ;)

Paraelix
02-09-2010, 11:42
Several further models could then rolls for the spells. ;)

But not recieve duplicates

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 12:23
But not recieve duplicates

But they can all substitute for the signature or swap for spell.

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 17:11
I guess I was too friendly in seeing that GW was having you choose your Lores 1st to avoid the conflict of forcing duplicate spells.

So you are all forcing the exceptions knowing that your exploiting a loophole.

So now you can happily have

1.Teclis with whatever 2 uber spells your after-purple sun etc.
2. seerstaff with whatever those 2 uber spells were.purple sun etc.
3.yet another mage with a 2 in 6 chance of getting at least 1 of the uber spells your after. purple sun etc.

See I thought if you chose a Lore that you knew was going to force the exceptions you were screwed for being a git, otherwise why would they have wasted so many paragraphs on making the point of no duplicate spells.

I was looking at the exceptions as outlets for characters or armys that may be forced to take specific spells.

My fault for not looking at the rule as, hmmm how can I exploit this and instead looking at it in the spirit in which it was made.

I am pretty sure GW did not want 3 purple suns running around in a 2000 point game, but whatever I guess you guys are right(exploit away).

decker_cky
02-09-2010, 17:37
High elves with that build have a decent shot at getting two uber spells off, but even with teclis and the banner of D3 power dice, they'll have a tough time. The problem is - if you have Teclis, why cast with other mages?

Agnar the Howler
02-09-2010, 18:04
I am pretty sure GW did not want 3 purple suns running around in a 2000 point game

I'm also pretty sure that GW did not want people who take Tetto'Eko to be unable to take any other skink priests, but by your argument that was their complete intention.

Lord Zarkov
02-09-2010, 18:05
High elves with that build have a decent shot at getting two uber spells off, but even with teclis and the banner of D3 power dice, they'll have a tough time. The problem is - if you have Teclis, why cast with other mages?

Who wouldn't want three Purple Suns at once? :p

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 18:23
I'm also pretty sure that GW did not want people who take Tetto'Eko to be unable to take any other skink priests, but by your argument that was their complete intention.

A 255 pt skink that knows all spells from the heavens, can set up a turn to be a Teclis, has a 5+ward save, rides a palanquin which means he acts like a slann except within a skink unit, can reroll comet dice and can redeploy d3 units before 1st turn.:eek:

Hmmmm, nah your right they wanted you to have 3 more skinks so you could duplicate all the spells that the 1 uber skink already does. :rolleyes:

I mean with 2d6 power dice they ALL have a chance of getting all 13 spells off in 1 turn right!!!:rolleyes:

Yeah I'm pretty sure they meant to keep ol Tetto'Eko on an even playing field.

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 18:26
My fault for not looking at the rule as, hmmm how can I exploit this and instead looking at it in the spirit in which it was made.

I am pretty sure GW did not want 3 purple suns running around in a 2000 point game, but whatever I guess you guys are right(exploit away).

It isn't an exploit if they specially allowed the exceptions to occur, they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of adding exceptions if they didn't expect people to use them in the cases they apply to.

Unless you actually wrote the rules then how do you have any clue as to what the original spirit was, I imagine it certainly wasn't "LOL lets make people have wizards with no spells because they took a loremaster". :rolleyes:

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 18:40
It isn't an exploit if they specially allowed the exceptions to occur, they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of adding exceptions if they didn't expect people to use them in the cases they apply to.

Unless you actually wrote the rules then how do you have any clue as to what the original spirit was, I imagine it certainly wasn't "LOL lets make people have wizards with no spells because they took a loremaster". :rolleyes:

They also would not have made it clear that you had to choose your Lore when your army was made(hence removing the conflict before there was one)

Actually the fact that you have a wizard with all 7 spells and limited dice to cast those spells I really cant see why you would need more mages with that same Lore except to exploit the system.
So thats why I don't believe it was intended.
Otherwise they would have excluded the 3 paragraphs talking about not duplicating spells and choosing your Lore when your army was made.

Grey Hunter 88
02-09-2010, 19:11
Balance and all aside, I wasn't about to tell my friend that his second and third wizards couldn't roll for spells, and could only cast the signature.

That just felt lame for everyone at the table. Luckily, I think that loremasters allow you to duplicate.

jamano
02-09-2010, 19:23
I am pretty sure GW did not want 3 purple suns running around in a 2000 point game, but whatever I guess you guys are right(exploit away).
Do you think 3 purple suns is worse than having dwellers, purple sun, and pit/final transmutation? That list would be wasting alot of points vs a high initiative army, which is why you pick lores ahead of time.

jamano
02-09-2010, 19:30
well the rivalry aside, the exact reason you choose the list in advance isn't to prevent loremaster conflicts, it is so you don't choose it based on your opponent ie take a bunch of metal casters vs warriors of chaos

NecronBob
02-09-2010, 19:38
When I read the rulebook, the assumptions behind the rules seemed pretty clear. You picked lores early to stop players from tailoring lores to specific armies. Teclis has to choose his lore. He can't use Metal against empire and brets and then turn around and take death versus vampire counts. Then, the rule allowing players to roll for spells that had already been generated through non-random means was put in because the designer recognized that something had to be done for wizards who don't roll (Teclis, Loremaster, Manfred, etc.); otherwise, there would be lots of arguments. Now, they could have said, "One of each spell. Period." if that was the intention, but they didn't.

Intentions don't matter though. When it's spelled out clearly, that's the way we have to play unless you houserule it or they comeback and FAQ it.

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 19:43
Exactly, you choose your lores with the list to prevent you tailoring lores to your opponents eg. Metal vs Chaos Warriors/ Dwarfs/ Bretts or Light vs Vamps or Daemons.

It's nothing to do with the fact some might be loremaster or not.

Paraelix
02-09-2010, 20:40
Who wouldn't want three Purple Suns at once? :p

You mean 3 simulatenously exploding wizards?

Also, to rebudd this silly argument... Not every army has access to Loremaster, and not every army has a model who can choose or must choose certain spells. Because looking on the flip side of the argument, if you play O&G it only take a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 to use up all available spells in a Lore, which makes further non-lvl 1s (of the same race) useless.

Also Agnar... After all your pomp and circumstance about Tetto being an expensive T2 model... Have you looked at Teclis' stats? Oh is that a Toughness stat of 2? And no Armour or Ward save? :/

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 21:04
Because looking on the flip side of the argument, if you play O&G it only take a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 to use up all available spells in a Lore, which makes further non-lvl 1s (of the same race) useless.


If both of those substituted a spell for the swap for spell then you could fit another two lvl 2's in, if each of those also substituted one spell for the swap for spell.

So you'd have 4 wizards each with the swap for spell and between them they would all know the entire lore with a 3,1,1,1 split.

Dragoon999
03-09-2010, 13:30
If both of those substituted a spell for the swap for spell then you could fit another two lvl 2's in, if each of those also substituted one spell for the swap for spell.

So you'd have 4 wizards each with the swap for spell and between them they would all know the entire lore with a 3,1,1,1 split.

This was my point on the whole matter, although the O&G or wood elves can do what you suggested....is it fair?

I mean they have no magic items (that I'm aware of) to exploit this rule, say like the high elves do.

I play dwarves and lizzys so this really has no effect on me, I just thought it was not balanced, hopefully GW fixes that with the new books for the armies this rules not balanced for.

O.K. I'm convinced, I still don't like it but rules are rules.:D