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lacurra
01-09-2010, 21:33
question about this spell, the spell text clearly lays out the order in which you bring pieces of the unit back, champion first, then musician, followed by everyone else without the banner ever coming back.

my question is really this though, can you regrow a unit that is completely wiped out or does there have to be atleast one piece left to use regrowth on the unit? also, can regrowth be used on a charactor or hero if they are killed?

Ultimate Life Form
01-09-2010, 21:35
Where there are no models there's no target.

The spell does not heal characters.

Lycannus
01-09-2010, 21:39
You have to be able to specifically target a unit, and the spell can only heal the unit, not attached characters. As Ultimate Life Form said, no models = no target.

Malorian
01-09-2010, 21:46
Here's something I wasn't sure on:

Can it heal up dead skinks on a steg?


There is a model to target, and wounds to heal, but the spell gives you back models and not wounds. So it seems the answer is no but I wanted to make sure.

Lycannus
01-09-2010, 21:51
Technically you are replacing models, because isn't it a unit of 5 skinks mounted in the howdah? each have only a single wound, so i'd say you possibly could.

tmarichards
01-09-2010, 21:51
@Mal

I'd be inclined to say yes to bringing back skinks. I know most people glue the skinks onto the howder, but imagine if you didn't- after they died, you'd have models to physically put back on the table.

I can't think of any rules argument for it though, so it'd be worth clearing up with your opponent before you cast it. In any case, if your opponent is quibbling about skinks then there is a simple solution:

Smite them with the rockethammer bible. Smite them mightily.

Lycannus
01-09-2010, 21:54
reading the BRB it states only characters and they're mounts cannot be healed, thus as long as there is at least one skink left alive the rest can be resurrected.

Dragoon999
01-09-2010, 22:04
Also remember that multiple wound models (krox) must be healed to full before others can be brought back and there does not have to be a skink left to bring them back as the unit is the target not the skinks. You cannot target them apart from the krox. Even though all the skinks may be dead, the champ, mus. then multy wound krox's are healed the skinks start popping back up.

The spell does not state that a like model must be present in the unit to heal the unit of models or wounds.

sssk
01-09-2010, 22:13
Here's a question for you. It clearly states that it heals however many wounds of "slain models". Does that mean that it can't heal wounds to something which isn't dead in the first place (eg a treeman, or if an ogre took 2 wounds but wasn't killed)?

Ultimate Life Form
01-09-2010, 22:16
Here's a question for you. It clearly states that it heals however many wounds of "slain models". Does that mean that it can't heal wounds to something which isn't dead in the first place (eg a treeman, or if an ogre took 2 wounds but wasn't killed)?

Yes, you got that exactly right. It only restores models.

Also I'm not sure why people think that howdah Skinks can be healed back as the entire Stegadon per definition counts as a single model. :confused: There is only one model in the unit, and once it's lost it cannot be brought back due to lack of target.

Dragoon999
01-09-2010, 22:38
Yes, you got that exactly right. It only restores models.

Also I'm not sure why people think that howdah Skinks can be healed back as the entire Stegadon per definition counts as a single model. :confused: There is only one model in the unit, and once it's lost it cannot be brought back due to lack of target.

Rank and file models w/multiple wounds are healed to their starting value after the champion and musician are brought back....then normal rank and file models are healed.

In reference to the steggy its considered a ridden monster w/multiple riders and since they can be targeted(for combat res I would guess)they can be killed and targeted for regrowth

Ultimate Life Form
01-09-2010, 22:49
The spell restores 'x wounds' worth of models slain earlier in the battle' and heals up rank & file.

Stegadon:
number of models: 1
number of models slain earlier in the battle: always 0
number of rank and file in unit: 0
wound regrowth potential: 0

Lycannus
01-09-2010, 23:00
Also I'm not sure why people think that howdah Skinks can be healed back as the entire Stegadon per definition counts as a single model. :confused: There is only one model in the unit, and once it's lost it cannot be brought back due to lack of target.

Probably because if you kill the stegadon the skinks form a skirmishing unit, but you are quite right while the stegadon is alive it is not a valid target because according to the brb it is a single model and that model is still alive. I retract my earlier opinion.

Ultimate Life Form
01-09-2010, 23:05
Probably because if you kill the stegadon the skinks form a skirmishing unit, but you are quite right while the stegadon is alive it is not a valid target because according to the brb it is a single model and that model is still alive. I retract my earlier opinion.

That was 6th Ed, 7th Ed sees the crew being crushed quite ingloriously. :p

Dragoon999
01-09-2010, 23:32
That was 6th Ed, 7th Ed sees the crew being crushed quite ingloriously. :p

and 8th ed sees them as a ridden monster with multiple riders

The stegadon rules and FAQ state they go squish if the steggy dies but are still a viable target to be hit in combat either from shooting or close combat.

However as the steggy is a unit, a rank and file unit it does benefit from regrowth and lifebloom-therefore the skinks can be brought back.

Ultimate Life Form
01-09-2010, 23:37
and 8th ed sees them as a ridden monster with multiple riders


That is correct, and therefore I suggest you read the Ridden Monster rules in regard of how many models there are in a Ridden Monster unit. ;)

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 00:01
That is correct, and therefore I suggest you read the Ridden Monster rules in regard of how many models there are in a Ridden Monster unit. ;)

I suggest you read the stegadon rules in the lizardmen rulebook which trumps the BRB with FAQ of course.

Ultimate Life Form
02-09-2010, 00:12
Nothing in there makes additional models magically appear from nowhere.

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 00:17
Nothing in there makes additional models magically appear from nowhere.

I'm not sure what your referring to.

theres 5 of them so 5 attacks from them, also 5 to target and kill.

unless your referring to them being considered 1 model....I never disputed that point-just said they are a unit.

after typing I'm still not sure what your referring to.

Balerion
02-09-2010, 07:28
The spell restores 'x wounds' worth of models slain earlier in the battle' and heals up rank & file.

Stegadon:
number of models: 1
number of models slain earlier in the battle: always 0
number of rank and file in unit: 0
wound regrowth potential: 0
I believe your interpretation interferes greatly with the use of the spell on multi-wound models that operate in a unit.

Say I begin the game with 6 Treekin. They take two wounds. By your interpretation Regrowth wouldn't function on them yet, since they haven't yet lost a model.

Say I lose another 3 wounds. I am now down to 5 Treekin, but I cannot use the spell to repair the presently wounded 5th Treekin, because "the first resurrected models must be fully healed before another can be resurrected". He has not yet died, and therefore cannot be resurrected nor healed.

edit: btw, I believe one of your figures is incorrect.



Stegadon:

number of rank and file in unit: 0

Why isn't a Stegadon a unit with one incomplete rank in one file?

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 09:21
Why isn't a Stegadon a unit with one incomplete rank in one file?

He is, all single monsters are units and as units have rank and file then they are obviously units of one rank of one file.

sssk
02-09-2010, 10:01
so in summary, regrowth brings back models which are no longer on the table but are part of a unit which is still on the table. Regrowth cannot do anything to models which are still present on the table (eg wounded multi wound creatures).

Interestingly (well, not really, but I'll say it anyway), this leaves scope for a unit of multi wound creatures with more than one which is below full wounds at a given time.

Illustration: A unit of treekin get shot and lose 5 wounds (one model dead and 2 wounds off another model). Now cast regrowth and lets say you heal 2 wounds. These have to be on the dead model, so that returns with 2 wounds. Now you have a unit with one model on 2 wounds (the regrown one) and one model on 1 wound (the one which was originally wounded but didn't die).

........Fairly irrelevant in most cases, but I'm sure there's somewhere it could make a difference.

Warboss Doink
02-09-2010, 10:25
That is correct, and therefore I suggest you read the Ridden Monster rules in regard of how many models there are in a Ridden Monster unit. ;)

1 for: template targetting, BS shooting, Morale checks
X+1 (being the number of riders + mount) for: CC, sniper, magic attacks that snipe or seperately target models

If you want to argue that it's a single model in respects to spell targetting that do not specifically mention sniping or are not damage spells (which are randomised), then as a result beneficiary effects (like llifebloom) affect both statlines of the monster/riders-model.

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 10:25
Except that goes against the rules of the spell which states you have to fully heal multi-wound models before you can bring back dead ones.

Balerion
02-09-2010, 16:25
Except that goes against the rules of the spell which states you have to fully heal multi-wound models before you can bring back dead ones.
But the spell doesn't quite say that. It mentions "slain" models and "resurrected" models. A model that has been wounded but not killed hasn't been slain or resurrected.

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 17:23
But the spell doesn't quite say that. It mentions "slain" models and "resurrected" models. A model that has been wounded but not killed hasn't been slain or resurrected.

you are missing 1 sentence

Then rank and file models with multiple wounds(including command figures) are healed to their starting value.

Then it goes on to say.

Finally, any remaining wounds resurrect rank and file models (in the case of multi wound rank and file, the 1st resurrected must be fully healed before another can be resurrected.

After the champion and musician are brought back multi wound models are healed to full (before) any others can be resurrected.

Since the steggy is considered a unit and a rank and file model then explain to me why regrowth cannot be used on him, then the skinks in the howdah?

decker_cky
02-09-2010, 17:29
Because no model had been slain.

Balerion
02-09-2010, 17:33
Urghh, this is starting to get comedically circular.


Because no model had been slain.
If that's your interpretation, then all of the problems I outlined still stand.

If you focus on the line Dragoon 999 quoted, then monsters are eligible for healing despite never having been slain.

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 18:08
Because no model had been slain.


As a matter of fact it specifically says multi wound models MUST be healed to their starting value before any other models are resurrected

stripsteak
02-09-2010, 18:13
Urghh, this is starting to get comedically circular.


If that's your interpretation, then all of the problems I outlined still stand.

If you focus on the line Dragoon 999 quoted, then monsters are eligible for healing despite never having been slain.

they work together fine...

decker and earlier ulf are pointing out vs the limit of wounds returned while dragoon is referring to the order of healing/returning.

to take the two examples presented thus far:
stegadon lost 3 wounds
number of models: 1
wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle: 0
which leads to wound regrowth potential: 0

end of spell you have 0 wounds pottential to regrow


Say I begin the game with 6 Treekin. They take two wounds. By your interpretation Regrowth wouldn't function on them yet, since they haven't yet lost a model.
number of models: 6
wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle: 0
which leads to wound regrowth potential: 0

by the way the spell is worded a unit can't receive any healing until a model has been slain, since the wounds gained are dependent on the wounds of slain models.

Say I lose another 3 wounds. I am now down to 5 Treekin, but I cannot use the spell to repair the presently wounded 5th Treekin, because "the first resurrected models must be fully healed before another can be resurrected". He has not yet died, and therefore cannot be resurrected nor healed.
number of models: 5
wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle: 3
which leads to wound regrowth potential: 3

lets assume you roll a total of 3 (if you rolled less you would only be able to heal the wounded RnF and not resurrect anything)
champ and musician haven't been lost
heal rank and file up by 2 wounds to full
resurrect a rank and file with remaining 1 wound.

I'm not sure where you are getting the can only heal resurrected models problem. You're applying the quote from the resurrection step to the healing step when its no ones indicated you should.

Balerion
02-09-2010, 18:47
they work together fine...

decker and earlier ulf are pointing out vs the limit of wounds returned while dragoon is referring to the order of healing/returning.

to take the two examples presented thus far:
stegadon lost 3 wounds
number of models: 1
wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle: 0
which leads to wound regrowth potential: 0

end of spell you have 0 wounds pottential to regrow


number of models: 6
wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle: 0
which leads to wound regrowth potential: 0

by the way the spell is worded a unit can't receive any healing until a model has been slain, since the wounds gained are dependent on the wounds of slain models.

number of models: 5
wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle: 3
which leads to wound regrowth potential: 3

lets assume you roll a total of 3 (if you rolled less you would only be able to heal the wounded RnF and not resurrect anything)
champ and musician haven't been lost
heal rank and file up by 2 wounds to full
resurrect a rank and file with remaining 1 wound.

I'm not sure where you are getting the can only heal resurrected models problem. You're applying the quote from the resurrection step to the healing step when its no ones indicated you should.
But in your example the unit is not "recover[ing] D3+1 Wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle." The model that is regaining the wounds was never slain. Yes, I realize there is a line that mandates the healing of multi-wound models before any resurrection. But the healing of a wounded multi-wound model in a unit that has lost models is not the same thing as the restoration of of slain models.

stripsteak
02-09-2010, 18:55
But in your example the unit is not "recover[ing] D3+1 Wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle." The model that is regaining the wounds was never slain. Yes, I realize there is a line that mandates the healing of multi-wound models before any resurrection. But the healing of a wounded multi-wound model in a unit that has lost models is not the same thing as the restoration of of slain models.

I'm missing your thought process somewhere...what indicates the model regaining wounds has to be one that was slain?

Balerion
02-09-2010, 21:33
I'm missing your thought process somewhere...what indicates the model regaining wounds has to be one that was slain?
The reason people say the spell doesn't work on monsters is that the language of the spell specifies that it restores wounds to slain models. My rulebook's downstairs, but I believe this is expressed in the first or second line of the spell text.

Hence, they say, Regrowth can never be cast on a monster, because a monster can never be slain and present on the board at the same time.

But if we preserve that focus on slain models it interferes with the spell being cast on multiwound units, as I have tried (perhaps poorly) to explain.

stripsteak
02-09-2010, 22:16
The reason people say the spell doesn't work on monsters is that the language of the spell specifies that it restores wounds to slain models. My rulebook's downstairs, but I believe this is expressed in the first or second line of the spell text.

ah i see the confusion now, thats not what has been said. whats been said as what the spell says is that the number of wounds it can heal is based on slain models. not that it only restores wounds to slain models.

Casshole
03-09-2010, 08:29
Me and my Lizardman player friend came to a compromise on this- we would let the skinks get resurrected, but the healing effect wouldnt affect the stegadon. I myself think that the skinks cannot be resurrected but he wanted the "healing the unit" (paraphrase at best) to work on his steggie with wounds.

Elyssia
03-09-2010, 12:27
Me and my Lizardman player friend came to a compromise on this- we would let the skinks get resurrected, but the healing effect wouldnt affect the stegadon. I myself think that the skinks cannot be resurrected but he wanted the "healing the unit" (paraphrase at best) to work on his steggie with wounds.

Quick, someone call the RAW police on this guy! He's trying to enjoy the game! ;)

But serious, it's a tradeoff. If regrowth doesn't work on the skinks on a stegadon (by RAW) due to it being a single model, then lifebloom will work, because skinks would not be classified as dead 'models', but merely as additional wounds on the single model.

I'd wait for a GW FAQ and agree before each battle which effect works on the skinks: Regrowth or Lifebloom.

Walgis
20-11-2010, 16:48
i say you can use on stegadons, no where its writen that you cant. stegadon isnt a character and mount. its just like cavalary just complex, first you have to heal skinks then you can heal stegadon. if skinks is dead then there was a slain model, because he was slain!!
lets say a steg with 5 skinks.
stegadon loses a wound and one skink dies. ant you cast regrowth on it. then first thing you resurect skins then you give the remaining wounds you rolled to stegadon.

its just being really stupid to say that stegadons cant be targeted with regrowth becouse only things that cant be targeted are characters and mounts.

sulla
20-11-2010, 19:27
Because no model had been slain.That requirement was changed in the 1.1 rulebook FAQ; "Change Models slain to wounds lost in the second sentence." The spell now heals stegadons and steam tanks just fine...