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View Full Version : Confusing ASF/ASL/Initiative situation.



DaemonReign
02-09-2010, 01:14
Last night I played the Watchtower scenario with DoC against Empire.

Alot of fun stuff happened but what I want to focus on is this:

My unit of Daemonettes + Herald charged his Greatswords.

I had Etherblade so it was the Stubborn that made them hang around after the first round of combat even.

Then in his magic phase his Light wizard casts the spell (Bironas Timewarp?) that gives Initative 10 and ASF.

Our game-master concluded the following from this situation:

Since ASL (Great Weapon) and ASF (the spell) cancels each other out the GreatSwords had to strike in Initative (10) order - meaning that my Daemonettes with locus got to strike first (ASF) but did Not get re-rolls since the GreatSwords had I10 - when the Greatswords finally did get to attack they did retain their re-roll to hit from the ASF-spell.
I eventually routed and destroyed this unit anyway. And I think our game-master made a good call on how to intepret this confusing web of rules surrounding ASF/ASL etc.

Just wanted to know what others might think.

Dragoon999
02-09-2010, 01:20
That is the way the rules work. kudos to your judge.

O.K. I'm done:cool:

Pacorko
02-09-2010, 01:31
Yep. Great call.

someone2040
02-09-2010, 01:53
I would play it almost the same, except Greatswords shouldn't get re-rolls to hit. The only reason stupid Elves do is because GW ruled that some fancy wording "Regardless of weapon" meant that it just ignored the precedent set in the rulebook.

As far as I am concerned, ASF and ASL cancel each other out completely. So you would just strike in initiative order (in this case, initiative 10).

stripsteak
02-09-2010, 01:57
when the Greatswords finally did get to attack they did retain their re-roll to hit from the ASF-spell.

This is the only part i think i disagree with. The ASF rule says if both units have it then neither benefit from the rerolls.

AMWOOD co
02-09-2010, 03:03
The greatswords should not have been allowed rerolls based on ASF with I10. Why? Because they did not have ASF at the time. By having both ASF and ASL, they actually count as having neither. Since the rerolls are part of ASF, the effect should be cancelled. Your judge slipped up, but it happens to the best of us.

DaemonReign
02-09-2010, 03:38
This is the only part i think i disagree with. The ASF rule says if both units have it then neither benefit from the rerolls.

YES!! This is actually what I was sort of looking for. Initially with 8th Edition THIS is exactly how I came to understand ASF. But I am so used to my friends knowing the rules better than I so when they started arguing otherwise I never made a fuss over it.

They play it like this:

Two ASF models fight. One has I5 one has I6.
Solution: They strike At The Same Time, and the I6 dude gets re-roll.
My initial impression: They Strike at the same time, neither gets re-roll.

Two ASF models with equal Init fight.
Solution: Strike at the same time, BOTH get re-rolls.
My Initial Impression: They strike at the same time, neither gets re-roll.

In the case of those Greatswords getting re-rolls despite their ASF being cancelled out by ASL - I had a suspicion it was wrong according to RAW, but I was winning the game by a fair margin and didn't want to be mean or start a lengthy debate with the game-master.

I would actually be totally OK with the rules actually being exactly as we played, but like I said I just had I feeling something was amiss..


The greatswords should not have been allowed rerolls based on ASF with I10. Why? Because they did not have ASF at the time. By having both ASF and ASL, they actually count as having neither. Since the rerolls are part of ASF, the effect should be cancelled. Your judge slipped up, but it happens to the best of us.

Yes he's a good guy. His intent was very honest. It wasn't a slip though. For some reason he's just gotten himself thinking ASF works like this - and we're all so used to listenning to him because he's the only one in our group who actually reads stuff like the new Book back to back..

Can anyone help me with a clear-cut reference that will convince him without me having to nag?

stripsteak
02-09-2010, 04:06
Can anyone help me with a clear-cut reference that will convince him without me having to nag?

ASF entry on pg 66 last sentence? If that doesn't convince him there really isn't anything else you can point to since that is the only place it's mentioned, and hasn't been brought up in faqs yet.

Lord Inquisitor
02-09-2010, 04:25
Yep, correct apart from the greatswords don't get re-rolls.

Just take it one step at a time.

Daemonettes have ASF I5, Greatswords have ASL I3. Under these conditions the Daemonettes strike first with re-rolls.

Greatswords gain ASF and I10. If they didn't have ASL, that would mean both units strike simultaneously regardless of initiative and neither gets re-rolls.

However, as Greatswords have ASL, that cancels out ASF. So they simply strike at I10 with no re-rolls. As the Daemonettes have ASF, they still strike first, but since the enemy has a higher initiative, they do not get the re-rolls.

So net effect of the spell is to deny the Daemonettes their re-rolls.


Two ASF models fight. One has I5 one has I6.
Solution: They strike At The Same Time, and the I6 dude gets re-roll.
My initial impression: They Strike at the same time, neither gets re-roll.

Two ASF models with equal Init fight.
Solution: Strike at the same time, BOTH get re-rolls.
My Initial Impression: They strike at the same time, neither gets re-roll.
You are correct on both counts.


Can anyone help me with a clear-cut reference that will convince him without me having to nag?
"If the models with this rule [ASF] is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule."

That's very clear. ASF vs ASF = simultaneous, no re-rolls. Initiative doesn't come into it.

"If a model has both this rule [ASL] and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative."

This is very clear, ASF + ASL = cancel out, follow normal rules. They lose ASF and ASL entirely, neither applies at all. Simple.

Balerion
02-09-2010, 07:16
"If a model has both this rule [ASL] and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative."
[/COLOR]
This line has always bugged me.

"Cancel out and neither applies" ... well, that takes care of the effects of both rules, but the model in question still technically [u]has[/i] both of them, doesn't it? The rules are still listed in their profile, and function according to their entries (even if their combined function is to cancel each other out). So by that interpretation, even if the Greatswords still had I3 they would deny the rerolls, because it would be ASF vs. ASF(-ASL).

I mean a model still has an armour save when it's being pierced, right? It's just that the effect of the armour does not apply.

Would appreciate some FAQ lovin' on this one, eventually. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, and believe that two canceled out rules disappear into the ether completely, but I think I have a cogent argument. I don't care what the end result of the rule is, I just want some official confirmation from GW.

narrativium
02-09-2010, 07:39
Balerion: you've solved the problem yourself. "Cancel out and neither applies." If a model with ASF can't apply it because of ASL, it doesn't get the benefit of disrupting the ASF of an enemy.

mishari26
02-09-2010, 07:45
ASF + ASL cancel each other out completely as far as I see it. seems the most elegant solution.

in this case you just proceed as if the Greatswords don't have ASF or ASL.

meaning they should NOT reroll their misses. and the Daemonettes also do NOT because their Init is lower than the Greatswords. easy ;)

stripsteak
02-09-2010, 08:05
This line has always bugged me.

"Cancel out and neither applies" ... well, that takes care of the effects of both rules, but the model in question still technically [u]has[/i] both of them, doesn't it? The rules are still listed in their profile, and function according to their entries (even if their combined function is to cancel each other out). So by that interpretation, even if the Greatswords still had I3 they would deny the rerolls, because it would be ASF vs. ASF(-ASL).

I mean a model still has an armour save when it's being pierced, right? It's just that the effect of the armour does not apply.

Would appreciate some FAQ lovin' on this one, eventually. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, and believe that two canceled out rules disappear into the ether completely, but I think I have a cogent argument. I don't care what the end result of the rule is, I just want some official confirmation from GW.

i never liked the wording either. I've always looked at thus (and yeah I'm being nitpicky I'll admit in advance):

the rule says 'if the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability' yada yada yada so while the greatswords have the rule asf they don't have the ability to asf because it's canceled by asl, thus don't negate an unblocked asf.

this also seems to fit with the spirit that asf cancels asl. If it's canceled you shouldn't be able to get any benefit from it, since then you enter the paradox of canceled but not canceled (since it's still doing something)...

errata would be nice just to make it nice and perfectly clear though.

DaemonReign
02-09-2010, 19:53
Yep, correct apart from the greatswords don't get re-rolls.

Just take it one step at a time.

Daemonettes have ASF I5, Greatswords have ASL I3. Under these conditions the Daemonettes strike first with re-rolls.

Greatswords gain ASF and I10. If they didn't have ASL, that would mean both units strike simultaneously regardless of initiative and neither gets re-rolls.

However, as Greatswords have ASL, that cancels out ASF. So they simply strike at I10 with no re-rolls. As the Daemonettes have ASF, they still strike first, but since the enemy has a higher initiative, they do not get the re-rolls.

So net effect of the spell is to deny the Daemonettes their re-rolls.


You are correct on both counts.


"If the models with this rule [ASF] is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule."

That's very clear. ASF vs ASF = simultaneous, no re-rolls. Initiative doesn't come into it.

"If a model has both this rule [ASL] and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative."

This is very clear, ASF + ASL = cancel out, follow normal rules. They lose ASF and ASL entirely, neither applies at all. Simple.

Thanks. I'll just show them this thread if I have to.. hehe I agree it's very clear. I should have stuck to my gut feeling instead of assuming everyone else knows the rules better than I do..

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 19:57
Thanks. I'll just show them this thread if I have to.. hehe I agree it's very clear. I should have stuck to my gut feeling instead of assuming everyone else knows the rules better than I do..

It's a new edition, everybody is learning the rules. Older players are also more likely to play using wrong rules because they often assume things haven't changed or just skim the new rules.

Lord Inquisitor
02-09-2010, 20:18
This line has always bugged me.

"Cancel out and neither applies" ... well, that takes care of the effects of both rules, but the model in question still technically has both of them, doesn't it?

Yes, they still have the rule, it just doesn't do anything. "Cancel out" is pretty clear, I don't think there's anything to suggest that you still get any effect of either rule.

So greatswords with ASF just count as if they had neither rule. However, when the spell wears off and they lose ASF, they still have ASL and so they strike last the moment they lose ASF!

Seal Cub
03-09-2010, 10:00
Then in his magic phase his Light wizard casts the spell (Bironas Timewarp?) that gives Initative 10 and ASF.


No it doesn't, Timewarp gives double M, +1A and ASF, so the great swords ASL would cancel the ASF and they would strike at I3. After your daemonettes and without re-rolls.

AussieLauren
03-09-2010, 10:34
I see it very similar to units with frenzy who have lost combat; the unit continues to have the rule, but no longer the ability (+A, charge baiting) in that case.\

And it also helps clarify; If something has the ASL rule, and then granted ASF by an effect, they then apply neither ability. If they subsequently get another round of ASF, that would then apply, as the previous ASL has been wiped out.

But then I suppose, RAW it says if you have the ASL rule not ability... Gah! my head!

DaemonReign
03-09-2010, 13:34
No it doesn't, Timewarp gives double M, +1A and ASF, so the great swords ASL would cancel the ASF and they would strike at I3. After your daemonettes and without re-rolls.

Yeah as I remember it my opponent actually cast two spells on those great swords...

Birona's Timewarp and Speed of Light I think the other one is called...

The only Relevant bit I focused on here was the fact that they (in this particular situation) had ASF, Init 10 and GreatWeapons (ASL).