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BRETELF
04-09-2010, 02:20
Hey guys, what should I take against Warriors at 2000-2500? Any ideas what helps. Should I go for teclis? I think he is going to try and kill my mage as fast as he can.


Thanks in advance.

landingshortly
04-09-2010, 04:03
if he tries to kill your mage, well ... don't let him.

teclis? why not. he's the best mage around.

lomore
04-09-2010, 10:09
Mostly depends if you want to max out or if it's a friendly game. I wouldn't bring Teclis to a friendly game apart from trying him once (and telling my opponent i would).

Apart from that, no reason not to play Teclis ihmo.
To get the best out of him put him in a big phoenix unit with bsb, world dragon standard and caradryan and play banner of sorcery on another unit.

The sad part is that the rest of your army isnt as important, they will be pointed ears fans clapping hands for teclis and asking him for autographs.

Tomás Turbado
04-09-2010, 10:25
Nice description, but I field WLs instead of PGs.

SkawtheFalconer
04-09-2010, 20:28
White Lions will make a real mess. Frankly most of your combat units will though, as you're generally striking first with a re-roll.

Bolt Throwers would also be useful.

Shadow_Steed
04-09-2010, 22:53
Lore of metal is a vital card in this match-up. Bolt thowers also due to no armour save, deals with their knights.

I would also recommend something to stall their (if any) Hell cannon.

lacurra
05-09-2010, 00:05
actually i do like lore of metal but my favorite thing to do against WoC is to give a mage the seerstaff so i can pick my spell and use mind razor on them. a block of 20 strength 8 spearmen will destroy just about anything WoC can throw at you.

start off casting stuff that he is going to want to dispel and then use mindrazor on your spearmen and turn them into confetti.

also, WL's are great against them and SM's will give them a -2 to their armor save so they aren't bad either. for duels, i love to take caradryan as if they kill him, they take d6 wounds with no armor saves allowed.

Citadel97501
05-09-2010, 02:56
I suggest 2 units of 7x2 white lions, and a big block of 15-20 Phoenix Guard, with 2 units of 20 Spear Men. In regards to basic characters field any non-wizards with basic Great Weapons, here are some basic builds that I use often.

Caradryan or Korhil

Noble
BSB
Great Weapon
Armor of Caledor
Dawn Stone or Guardian Phoenix

Noble
Armor of Silvered Steel
Great Weapon

In regards to banners, always field the Banner of Sorcery with Teclis since it allows you to max your dice a good 95% of the time. I also like to field the Banner of Discipline in White Lions, that 9 Leadership has saved me more times than I count.

BRETELF
05-09-2010, 03:35
This just in, no special characters! What should I do? I think an arch mage with a book of hoeth should be good right?

Citadel97501
05-09-2010, 05:09
Bretelf,

I unlike all the other Elves would not suggest the Book of Hoeth, I personally would rather have the following for characters, as you keep a high level of counter magic, and have a lot more choppy. . . Remember his characters have to challenge so use those GW characters to cut them down. . .

2500 point army = 602/318

Arch-Mage
Level 4
Seer Staff
Talisman of Preservation (the 4+ ward save one)

Prince
Armor of Caledor
Vambraces of Defense
Great Weapon

Noble
BSB
Armor of Silvered Steel
Great Weapon

Mage
Level 2
Annulian Crystal

2000 point Army = 496/498
Prince
General
Armor of Caledor
Vambraces of Defense
Great Weapon

Prince
Dragon Armor
Enchanted Shield
Helm of Fortune
Ogre Blade

Mage
Level 2
Staff of Sorcery

Mage
Level 2
Dispel Scroll

Noble
BSB
Armor of Destiny
Great Weapon

Shadow_Steed
05-09-2010, 09:18
actually i do like lore of metal but my favorite thing to do against WoC is to give a mage the seerstaff so i can pick my spell and use mind razor on them. a block of 20 strength 8 spearmen will destroy just about anything WoC can throw at you.

start off casting stuff that he is going to want to dispel and then use mindrazor on your spearmen and turn them into confetti.

also, WL's are great against them and SM's will give them a -2 to their armor save so they aren't bad either. for duels, i love to take caradryan as if they kill him, they take d6 wounds with no armor saves allowed.

I thought of this too:) I havent tried it yet though, but it should deal with both knights and chosen pretty well.=)

AMWOOD co
05-09-2010, 09:19
actually i do like lore of metal but my favorite thing to do against WoC is to give a mage the seerstaff so i can pick my spell and use mind razor on them. a block of 20 strength 8 spearmen will destroy just about anything WoC can throw at you.

The only problem with this is you aren't truly S8. You get to make your to wound roll using your Ld instead of S, but they get their armour save as normal. You may get over twice as many wounds as normal, but they will still deflect at least half of those with a save of at least 4+ (3+/6+ with shield, 1+ on knights) and you don't get to reroll to hit except with Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, and characters. Anything other than actual warriors, however, would really feel the pain.

Shadow_Steed
05-09-2010, 09:22
The only problem with this is you aren't truly S8. You get to make your to wound roll using your Ld instead of S, but they get their armour save as normal. You may get over twice as many wounds as normal, but they will still deflect at least half of those with a save of at least 4+ (3+/6+ with shield, 1+ on knights) and you don't get to reroll to hit except with Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, and characters. Anything other than actual warriors, however, would really feel the pain.

Why wouldnt the new strenght reduce armour save?

Tomalock
05-09-2010, 09:39
Hmmm, an interesting interpretation. I can't find anything in the BRB or FAQ that would disagree with how you view it, but I wouldn't call an opponent on that unless they were throwing sketchy RAW in my face all game long. I don't think that was GW's intended outcome for that spell, costing 18 base and all. Yet another reason I find RAW to be generally worthless when it comes to GW's rules.

Kensai
05-09-2010, 20:57
I'm really surprised that nobody has suggested taking Sword Masters yet. Unless he's packing in the hellcannons, his Chaos army will have a serious lack of ranged assets. This allows your Sword Masters to reach combat relatively unscathed, where they can start working on what they do best. Seriously, a unit of 10 Sword Masters could probably kill a unit of chaos knights in one turn without receiving a single attack back.

Brady
05-09-2010, 21:03
Against WoC you want high strength. You are going first and re-rolling hits, phoenix guard don't fulfill this as well as swordmasters ( unless they are mindrazored). Kensai is right, Swordmasters should mince the chaos warriors with S5 2A Re-rolling hits and I believe they are the way to go :)

tiekwando
05-09-2010, 23:32
Hmmm, an interesting interpretation. I can't find anything in the BRB or FAQ that would disagree with how you view it, but I wouldn't call an opponent on that unless they were throwing sketchy RAW in my face all game long. I don't think that was GW's intended outcome for that spell, costing 18 base and all. Yet another reason I find RAW to be generally worthless when it comes to GW's rules.

Check out the errata to the BRB. It does effect the armor save of the unit.

Also why seerstaff instead of say the silver wand? save some points and you get 5 out of 6 spells.

Citadel97501
06-09-2010, 00:36
Sword Masters do outperform White Lions versus Chaos Warriors, unless the Warriors have the Mark of Nurgle, which works well versus High Elf shooting. . . I will also do the math-hammer to factor in Phoenix Guard. . .

12 Chaos Warriors with MoN & Halberds
-7x2, White Lions Kill = 8.76 (Round up to 9)
-7x2, Sword Masters Kill = 8.67 (Round up to 9)

12 Chaos Warriors with MoK & Halberds
-7x2, White Lions Kill = 8.76 Warriors
-7x2, Sword Masters Kill = 10.18

12 Chaos Warriors with MoT & Shields
-7x2, White Lions Kill = 4.83 kills
-7x2, Sword Masters Kill = 5.31 kills

Who wins a round of combat, 12 Warriors of Chaos with Musician, Banner, MoK & Halberds, or 15 Phoenix Guard with Full Command.
-Phoenix Guard Kill: 2.7225 (Round up to 3)
-Warriors Kill: 4.38 (Round up to 5)
-Combat Resolution: Phoenix Guard tie if they charged, or are stubborn.

lacurra
06-09-2010, 00:38
as to why the seerstaff vs. the silver wand

you only get 5 of the six spells if you use an archmage. if you use a lvl 1 or 2 mage you will need the seerstaff to make sure you get mind razor. i like mages as they are cheaper for spells that i may blow myself up with :P

BRETELF
06-09-2010, 02:17
Im almost positive he'll be using 2 x 20 warriors. The book of hoeth isnt a good idea?

Bereaver
06-09-2010, 03:31
Uh, simple.

Teclis+Lore of Metal, good game.

If you can't win with that vs WoC you must have some serious disability when it comes to rolling dice.


The only problem with this is you aren't truly S8. You get to make your to wound roll using your Ld instead of S, but they get their armour save as normal. You may get over twice as many wounds as normal, but they will still deflect at least half of those with a save of at least 4+ (3+/6+ with shield, 1+ on knights) and you don't get to reroll to hit except with Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, and characters. Anything other than actual warriors, however, would really feel the pain.

Warriors are I5, so are Spearmen. All Elves get ASF rerolls vs Warriors.

Also the FAQ changed it so that OMR does modify strength when attacking, period.

CmdrLaw
06-09-2010, 15:51
HE have alot to counter WoC, WL's are brilliant as are PG and your magic is good at countering any big Tzeentch casters.

The main thing I have found that gives HE's a big big pain is Hellcannons.

They can sit outside the range of magic, Eagles will do nothing but provide a fried chicken snack and the STR 5 template will absolutely murder the elves.

The only real way to deal is to buff vunerable units with life or bring them back or you advance in very thin lines and then reform when closer.

If anyone else has ideas to deal with them I would love to hear it, as losing 10-15 Special models a turn is just too damaging. Or 20 or so spearmen LSG...

They are also now very popular in Chaos lists.

CmdrLaw
06-09-2010, 15:55
Uh, simple.

Teclis+Lore of Metal, good game.


Well unless he is using a Marauder horde with Mark of Khorne and great weapons, plus Trolls instead of knights and warriors. Which is very viable as they are both strong choices now and then metal becomes alot less impressive.

edit: except I missed the part where you said he would be using 2x20 warriors :)

Bereaver
06-09-2010, 23:14
Well unless he is using a Marauder horde with Mark of Khorne and great weapons, plus Trolls instead of knights and warriors. Which is very viable as they are both strong choices now and then metal becomes alot less impressive.

edit: except I missed the part where you said he would be using 2x20 warriors :)

Teclis picks lores before the game, so if He's going Marauder Horde go Lore of Life or Shadow.

enygma7
06-09-2010, 23:42
The only problem with this is you aren't truly S8. You get to make your to wound roll using your Ld instead of S, but they get their armour save as normal. You may get over twice as many wounds as normal, but they will still deflect at least half of those with a save of at least 4+ (3+/6+ with shield, 1+ on knights) and you don't get to reroll to hit except with Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, and characters. Anything other than actual warriors, however, would really feel the pain.

As mentioned, I believe mindrazor has been faqed.

On the second point, you only have to have equal initiative to your opponent to re-roll misses with ASF, not greater. I don't have the army books to hand but I believe chaos warriors are I5 so everything gets to re-roll to hit against them.

BRETELF
06-09-2010, 23:54
Well the battle was today, i used vc instead. But i know now what to take for high elves. Thanks everybody.

Tarian
06-09-2010, 23:57
Heh, bit late to the party, but the Ethereal/Negate Magic Weapon Archmage is a pain for WoC, as they *have* to challenge, then they can do absolutely nothing in the challenge to your mage.