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Da Crusha
04-09-2010, 10:17
I ran into this situation the other day against tomb kings. I charge the skeleton unit to the front and the back. we do 10 wounds and the back unit is moving forward as skeletons die. during his turn he casts the skeleton raising spell. can he still add the models since there is no longer any room to put them?

theunwantedbeing
04-09-2010, 10:22
I'm going to say no, as it would be open to abuse by using 1 wide rank units and then using the spell to "push" enemy unit's.

diggerydoom
04-09-2010, 12:00
No I would suggest not. I think there is a mention of this in an FAQ possible the VC or TK one.

theorox
04-09-2010, 12:30
No...but maybe remember just say that they are there and put them there if the unit gets out of combat or the space becomes available? :wtf:

Theo

Da Crusha
04-09-2010, 12:32
I did not see it in either FAQ.

theunwantedbeing
04-09-2010, 12:36
I did not see it in either FAQ.

The previous FAQ prevented you from placing new models within 1" of an enemy (except one you were in combat with). Infact the new one also states this.

Although it was never covered as to whether you can place new models in such a way that either side would be made to move to make room.

rodmillard
04-09-2010, 12:49
Probably a stupid question, but why not just add to the width of the unit? put the new models in extra files to either side, keeping the centre of the unit in the same place.

theunwantedbeing
04-09-2010, 13:00
Probably a stupid question, but why not just add to the width of the unit? put the new models in extra files to either side, keeping the centre of the unit in the same place.

Your not allowed to unless the unit is only 1 rank deep.

mishari26
04-09-2010, 13:16
I think since rear enemies are allowed to move in if the unit shrinks, it stands to reason they should move back if the unit expands.

seems fair to the spirit of the resurrection spells to me.

Mid'ean
04-09-2010, 15:22
I think since rear enemies are allowed to move in if the unit shrinks, it stands to reason they should move back if the unit expands.

seems fair to the spirit of the resurrection spells to me.

Well, it may seem fair but it is not supported by the rules. Nowhere does it say you can move a unit back to place models IoN'ed. The abuses you could do if you where able to "move" units this way is to much. I have been playing VC for awhile and most VC players also agree that if you have been attacked to the front and rear you deserve the beating your gonna get....

Rikkjourd
04-09-2010, 16:50
If that was possible, imagine this: Put a skeleton unit in one file, with a defensive character. Turn the rear to the enemy. When they get charged, your character moves up to the unit preventing them from causing too many casualties. When your magic phase starts, you raise a ton of skeletons and catapult the enemy unit across the table =)

tarrasque
04-09-2010, 19:29
what if the unit of scellys pass a ld and mereform at the end of combat? are there rules for that?

Korraz
04-09-2010, 19:42
Nothing happens. The opponent stays where he is, you can only reform legally.

Pushing enemy units around the field...oh boy.

Da Crusha
04-09-2010, 20:53
what if the unit of scellys pass a ld and mereform at the end of combat? are there rules for that?

you can't do a combat reform if you are in combat on 2 or more sides. last paragraph pg55 BRB

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 21:09
The previous FAQ prevented you from placing new models within 1" of an enemy (except one you were in combat with). Infact the new one also states this.

Although it was never covered as to whether you can place new models in such a way that either side would be made to move to make room.

In which case that FAQ entry wouldn't stop the idea of raising new models into the unit as they're engaged in combat with the unit in the rear as well.


Well, it may seem fair but it is not supported by the rules. Nowhere does it say you can move a unit back to place models IoN'ed

No rule tells us that units would move to account for this, but no rule tells us that units wouldn't move to account for it either. Not saying "because there's ambiguity, its' allowed" but "because there's ambiguity, there's the possibility it is allowed".

Thinking about it, the models are restored to the unit and you have to restore ranks where possible. Since then, you can only ever be in combat with the back rank (and can't have models overlay the back rank and file models of the unit - or rather, standing on their heads), if the spell would create enough models to restore ranks, I would state the unit would indeed be moved back. Kinda amusing really, if a little scary.

The question is though, what would happen if that restore effect would move the models in the rear unit "off the board"? You can't voluntarily fall off the back of the board, but can't add more ranks to the back...you'd have to move the front unit back :wtf:

Toodles

Urgat
05-09-2010, 21:26
The only similar rule I can think of is the transformation of Khadon: no room, no transformation. So no room, no raising for me. Seems logical.

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 21:47
The only similar rule I can think of is the transformation of Khadon: no room, no transformation. So no room, no raising for me. Seems logical.

Perhaps, its' not a bad precedent to use, but they are different spells.

Does either the incantation of summoning or the invocation state it needs room to do so? If it doesn't, then we logically can't apply the same principles.

Toodles

theunwantedbeing
05-09-2010, 22:01
Does either the incantation of summoning or the invocation state it needs room to do so? If it doesn't, then we logically can't apply the same principles.

Raise dead states that models summoned must be placed 1" away from enemies. So that's 100% clear.

Invocation say's nothing on the matter.
Although the FAQ says that raised models can't be placed within 1" of an enemy but *can* if that enemy is one they are fighting.

Placing a model within 1" of an enemy and placing it ON an enemy are 2 different things, one of which is generally assumed to not be allowed.

I'm in the camp of no pushing enemy units with raised models.

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 22:34
Invocation say's nothing on the matter.
Although the FAQ says that raised models can't be placed within 1" of an enemy but *can* if that enemy is one they are fighting.

Fair enough


Placing a model within 1" of an enemy and placing it ON an enemy are 2 different things, one of which is generally assumed to not be allowed.

I would push that the enemy unit can only ever be put in BtB contact with the back rank (as the pretty pictures in the RBRB show us) - if the spell creates new ranks, it would therefore have to be in BtB contact with the back rank. Ergo, the unit would have to move to adjust for this.

I take it Invoction says nothing about how you put models restored to a unit - that they have to complete ranks, etc?

I'm not sure though, I'd be tempted to just allow my opponent to move my unit back for sake of a lack of argument, but that's just me.

Toodles

Ranhothep
06-09-2010, 08:04
Interesting discussion. I agree that if the attacking unit would be pushed back, there would be room for abuse, although at first sight it looks not THAT easy to exploit and set up. Especially with Tomb Kings who have no way to increase beyond maximum starting stength of the unit. If you would do a single rank of skeletons and turn them with their backs to the enemy, you'd need to raise one hell of a lot skeletons in order to fill the wide rank and add further ones. Even then, with skeletons being on small bases, the pushback wouldn't be that big. Another thing is, if you move forward when you charge the back of the unit and it takes casualties, I think it would be only fair to allow them to push the unit back at least the same distance when they replenish their ranks.

To sum it up, I think I'd allow the opponent to push my units back a bit if he added ranks unless it would push my unit off the battlefield.
I'm waiting for some interesting suggestions for serious abuse of this in the meantime, let's see what the veteran VC players can come up with (TK don't really seem to be able to abuse this)

Da Crusha
06-09-2010, 10:36
If you would do a single rank of skeletons and turn them with their backs to the enemy, you'd need to raise one hell of a lot skeletons in order to fill the wide rank and add further ones.

no you dont use a wide rank to abuse it.


I'm waiting for some interesting suggestions for serious abuse of this in the meantime, let's see what the veteran VC players can come up with (TK don't really seem to be able to abuse this)

you need a rank only one model wide and then every model you raise will just add to the back making another 1 model rank. you can raise 20 skeletons in a turn, effectively pushing a rear unit back 15.75 inches, and then an evil vampire player can vanhels a blood knight unit that would have been 30 inches away, right into the rear of the poor good unit.:cries:

Ranhothep
06-09-2010, 11:20
Ok, but wouldn't it be a bit difficult to have a unit of a few skeletons - 1 model wide prevent from crumbling when charged from the rear? If it weren't only 1 model wide, you still would have troubles surviving the charge and in case the rank would be wider in order to survive the charge and ensuing combat resolution, you wouldn't have much control about the width and thus even if you managed to raise 20 skeletons (without the opponent trying to dispell your invocations) it wouldn't push the enemy unit many inches probably...

Considering all this, it doesn't look being worth all this trouble just to set up a charge for your blood knights in this way. Ultimately, your opponent doesn't need to charge the skeletons if he sees something fishy like 5 skeletons with their backs to him and a unit of blood knights waiting for a flank charge... The described situation doesn't look like a helpfull rules abuse

Mid'ean
06-09-2010, 21:55
Ok, but wouldn't it be a bit difficult to have a unit of a few skeletons - 1 model wide prevent from crumbling when charged from the rear? If it weren't only 1 model wide, you still would have troubles surviving the charge and in case the rank would be wider in order to survive the charge and ensuing combat resolution, you wouldn't have much control about the width and thus even if you managed to raise 20 skeletons (without the opponent trying to dispell your invocations) it wouldn't push the enemy unit many inches probably...

Considering all this, it doesn't look being worth all this trouble just to set up a charge for your blood knights in this way. Ultimately, your opponent doesn't need to charge the skeletons if he sees something fishy like 5 skeletons with their backs to him and a unit of blood knights waiting for a flank charge... The described situation doesn't look like a helpfull rules abuse

True, a VC player wouldn't set up something like this on purpose. But as a long time VC player I have been reduced to just one skelly or ghoul a number of times. And with SUH or multible IoN's I could launch your unit across the table. Most long time VC players agree that you cannot raise to the rear if engaged there.

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 23:43
Most long time VC players agree that you cannot raise to the rear if engaged there.

Do the rules for raising the models allow you to add to the width of the ranks then?

Toodles

theunwantedbeing
06-09-2010, 23:51
Do the rules for raising the models allow you to add to the width of the ranks then?

Toodles

No they don't :)

TheTrueSloth
07-09-2010, 00:11
No they don't :)

Good to know :)

Then you can legitimately argue you can push enemy units round. Kinda funky when you think about it, all those units doing the "Nuffle Shuffle" an' all.

Toodles

Taureus
07-09-2010, 02:28
Can these even be cast into Close Combat?

Remember, they have to state that they can within the entry of the invocation. As no spells can be cast into CC unless otherwise stated within their text.

theunwantedbeing
07-09-2010, 02:36
Can these even be cast into Close Combat?

Remember, they have to state that they can within the entry of the invocation. As no spells can be cast into CC unless otherwise stated within their text.

Read the FAQ perhaps, it might say.

sulla
07-09-2010, 05:03
To sum it up, I think I'd allow the opponent to push my units back a bit if he added ranks unless it would push my unit off the battlefield.
I'm waiting for some interesting suggestions for serious abuse of this in the meantime, let's see what the veteran VC players can come up with (TK don't really seem to be able to abuse this)Would you allow the VC raise to push the enemy unit into combat with another unit? Or into terrain? Impassable terrain? Seems silly to me. If there's no room, bad luck to the V C player; you got outmanouvered...

TheTrueSloth
07-09-2010, 10:57
Would you allow the VC raise to push the enemy unit into combat with another unit? Or into terrain? Impassable terrain? Seems silly to me. If there's no room, bad luck to the V C player; you got outmanouvered...

No, you couldn't push an enemy unit into combat with another unit because, in order to close that 1" gap, you would have had to have considered to be charging/charged in one sense or another. As far as pushing off the board would go, I would suggest that, if you would push an enemy off the board, the enemy unit would stay exactly where it is and not be moved further back, but the unit would still gain ranks as normal. To "make room for this", we'd have to move any units on the front so there was enough space to add to the back.

But no, no pushing units off the board or into combat with other units (or Impassable Terrain, for that matter). Normal terrain, on the other hand, fair enough, but the unit wouldn't have counted as moving into there for the purposes of setting off certain terrain special rules.

Toodles

Taureus
07-09-2010, 21:24
Read the FAQ perhaps, it might say.

Ahh, that's why it's in the FAQ and not the errata. ;)