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Tomalock
04-09-2010, 18:46
If a vampire casts transformation of Kadon and becomes one of the monsters, can another VC caster heal wounds off of him via Invocation of Nehek? My response is yes, because he is still a character and still retains his special rules (Vampire), so I don't see why it wouldn't be able to heal a wound off of him. I'm debating switching my footslogging Vampire to Lore of Beasts and this made me wonder. Curious what others think about it. Thanks in advance!

TheTrueSloth
04-09-2010, 19:04
Interesting one. I was about to say no at first (afterall, he turns into a chuffing great monster). But as I see in the description of the spell:

He turns into a monster.
He can no longer channel or cast spells,
All of his magic and mundane stuff stops working.

While he definitely keeps his + bonus to dispel (as the spell doesn't stop him being a wizard with a magic level)...I'm not sure. I can't see any real RAW reason not to, except for the fact he is now considered whatever monster you turn into rather than a vampire per se. But like you said, the spell doesn't take away his special rules.

I'd be inclined to say RAI, no, RAW, yes on that one.

Go for it. I like the idea of a dragon that gets a bonus to dispel :)

Toodles

AMWOOD co
04-09-2010, 19:25
Just what we all need, more monsters with the Undead rule.

I see no reason to deny you all this, but be aware that he will suffer for being unstable (or the equivalent of it) and all the other lovely little side effects of being undead (beware the Light).

Your Vampire powers, however, will carry... oh no... Ethereal dragons anybody?

TheTrueSloth
04-09-2010, 19:29
Your Vampire powers, however, will carry... oh no... Ethereal dragons anybody?

I thought that was a magical items that made Vamps ethereal?

Toodles

Tomalock
04-09-2010, 19:51
No, its the Vampiric Power Spectral Form. Interesting thought, I had not considered that! I can't do that with how I run my list, but maybe for a future one...

VoodooJanus
04-09-2010, 20:19
The worst instance I've seen was when a VC lord transformed into a Mountain Chimera... with red fury!!! It was the first time I saw a whole block of Chaos Warriors go down from a single combat... It was terrible to watch.

Needless to say, THAT got dispelled right away.

TheTrueSloth
04-09-2010, 20:47
The worst instance I've seen was when a VC lord transformed into a Mountain Chimera... with red fury!!! It was the first time I saw a whole block of Chaos Warriors go down from a single combat... It was terrible to watch.

Needless to say, THAT got dispelled right away.

Wow. Just wow.

Now there's something I would love to be on the end of just once. It's like seeing Aerosmith in concert. You may not like them, but you really should be on the end of it just once simply so you can say you have had that experience :D

Toodles

SiNNiX
04-09-2010, 20:58
Yeah, or a donkey show.

TheTrueSloth
04-09-2010, 21:07
Yeah, or a donkey show.

Do you really want to be on the end of a donkey? :confused:

Out of curiosity, if a Wight King somehow miraculously turned into a Dragon, would it have killing blow? IIRC, it was the special rules he had that gave his weapons killing blow rather than them being magical by themselves (or so my last opponent told me).

Toodles

Korraz
04-09-2010, 21:44
Yes, he would indeed have killing blow.

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 09:19
Yes, he would indeed have killing blow.

Good to know :)

Toodles

Lord Inquisitor
08-10-2010, 21:47
The worst instance I've seen was when a VC lord transformed into a Mountain Chimera... with red fury!!! It was the first time I saw a whole block of Chaos Warriors go down from a single combat... It was terrible to watch.
Apologies for the slight thread necromancy here (appropriate though!), but in my last game I managed this exact same combo (I asked my opponent beforehand if he was okay with me trying out a cheesy combo). Between the 4D6 attacks, the additional attacks for any wounds inflicted, the breath weapon attack and thunderstomp, I inflicted twenty seven wounds on the enemy unit. Now that's a beast!

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-10-2010, 00:10
Apologies for the slight thread necromancy here (appropriate though!), but in my last game I managed this exact same combo (I asked my opponent beforehand if he was okay with me trying out a cheesy combo). Between the 4D6 attacks, the additional attacks for any wounds inflicted, the breath weapon attack and thunderstomp, I inflicted twenty seven wounds on the enemy unit. Now that's a beast!

Nice! Must have put a bit of a dent in the enemy.

magicmonkey
10-10-2010, 09:38
ethreal chimeras which can do 27 wounds and have ten of their own..... hang on a slaan can be ethreal and get some other advatages as well! to the skink cave!

Chris_
10-10-2010, 09:40
ethreal chimeras which can do 27 wounds and have ten of their own..... hang on a slaan can be ethreal and get some other advatages as well! to the skink cave!Slaan can not cast Transformation of Kadon.

magicmonkey
10-10-2010, 13:59
why not? if i stay out of tg buy not buying them i can get a ethreal chimera with a 4+ ward. or does he not count as on foot because of the plaque a mathingumajiggy

Chris_
10-10-2010, 14:03
why not? if i stay out of tg buy not buying them i can get a ethreal chimera with a 4+ ward. or does he not count as on foot because of the plaque a mathingumajiggyIt is in the Lizardmen FAQ, don't know why they ruled it that way, might be the palanquin or some other reason altogether.

Kevlar
10-10-2010, 14:15
When you use this spell, do you have a proper model to use for the mountain chimera? I personally would not allow that spell to be cast at the higher value if the person did not have a model to use for it, and with that kind of power, no I would not allow a proxy. If all you have are models for the lower power level, then thats all you are casting on me.

Lord Inquisitor
10-10-2010, 21:49
I used a dragon proxy for the mountain chimera, one my opponent brought with him for this very eventuality, no less. Agreed that these spells would be a lot less horrible if people had to produce a fully converted model for it! And yeah, a greater dragon should be more than just a regular dragon too...

But lack of models is an issue. While Forgeworld do make a greater dragon, the 140-GBP price tag means I've never seen one on the table. As for chimera, I believe GW made a model waaaay back when but that's long OOP (and would be tiny compared with the current range). I joked with my opponent that I've plenty of Chimera if he doesn't mind me using the 40K model...

I am very tempted to build an undead mountain chimera as my next modelling project.

Kevlar
10-10-2010, 22:21
I used a dragon proxy for the mountain chimera, one my opponent brought with him for this very eventuality, no less. Agreed that these spells would be a lot less horrible if people had to produce a fully converted model for it! And yeah, a greater dragon should be more than just a regular dragon too...

But lack of models is an issue. While Forgeworld do make a greater dragon, the 140-GBP price tag means I've never seen one on the table. As for chimera, I believe GW made a model waaaay back when but that's long OOP (and would be tiny compared with the current range). I joked with my opponent that I've plenty of Chimera if he doesn't mind me using the 40K model...

I am very tempted to build an undead mountain chimera as my next modelling project.

See that is exactly my point. The lower power version of the spell will let you turn into a manticore, hydra, or dragon. Models most people have, and also models that aren't game breaking.

You want to be a great fire dragon or mountain chimera you better have the model.

squeekenator
11-10-2010, 07:45
See that is exactly my point. The lower power version of the spell will let you turn into a manticore, hydra, or dragon. Models most people have, and also models that aren't game breaking.

You want to be a great fire dragon or mountain chimera you better have the model.

That sounds like a very dodgy way of balancing it out. If ToK is balanced, then there's no reason to force someone to spend hundreds of dollars buying a huge Forgeworld model to use a spell they rolled. If it's unbalanced, then giving people an in-game advantage because they have huge piles of disposable income isn't exactly what I'd call fair. Besides, there's no official model or base size for either (as far as I'm aware), so even if you want to RaW it up your opponent could just slap down a Coke can and say it's a lovingly converted Chimera.

Atrahasis
11-10-2010, 07:49
Using the size of a player's wallet as a game balancing technique is never a good idea.

gaarew
11-10-2010, 07:50
Buying pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons Chimeras is...

Korraz
11-10-2010, 09:34
If you want to use something on a regular basis, then you have to own it. Or at least rent it.

theunwantedbeing
11-10-2010, 10:27
Using the size of a player's wallet as a game balancing technique is never a good idea.

It's largely a result of the silly FAQ saying "abilities still work".
So you get a Mountain Chimeara with ASF, or Ethereral, or Red fury or other such large imbalances.

It would have been far easier to simply state that the model just follows all the rules for being that particular monster they turned into and no special rules or items and such worked on them anymore.

In anycase, the 2 big creatures are so much more powerful than standard big monster's that you'de really need a much larger based model for it than even the current plastic dragon on chariot base. At least screaming bell size.

You need a model for the folding fortress afterall, why not need a model for transformation? (or just pick a lower version of the spell instead)

Kevlar
11-10-2010, 13:13
Scratch building something costs zero dollars. If you want to wreck half my army you better at least use an appropriate model to do so.

Spleen Hammer
12-10-2010, 19:01
I'm in the boat with the can of Coke. Tape some cut out wings on it and BAM! a chimera. Or print off 6 copies of a picture of a chimera and make it into an appropriately sized cube, picture side out. There's you chimera.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 19:29
It really depends. I think for a spell, it's a little unreasonable to expect a fully converted and modelled creature for every possible choice in the spell. After all, one doesn't need a fully modelled Pit of Shades, or a painted orb for the Purple Sun counter (although to be fair it'd go a long way to balancing out these uberspells), so Transformation sticks out as the only spell that requires you to bring extra models (certain undead spells aside).

Certainly if you bring a level 1 Beast wizard and he happens to roll the spell, or if you are using a Wizard's Hat or Third Eye or somesuch, it isn't reasonable to expect a model to be produced, especially since GW don't even produce a model! I'm not a big fan of coke can proxies, I'd much rather use a regular dragon from your collection as the gribbly than something that's an eyesore.

Then again, if you're running a powerscroll beast Loremaster and pulling the same trick every game, bringing an appropriate model would be at the very least polite.

As for the ruling about special abilities, yeah, it's an issue. In some cases it makes sense - it figures that a Vampire would turn into an undead dragon, and suddenly becoming able to flee seems outright odd (what happens if he turns back while fleeing, etc?). But it would have been more balanced.

Maoriboy007
12-10-2010, 19:54
It'd be nice to find a use for my otherwise useless Undead Dragon Model :)

Korraz
12-10-2010, 20:03
If you somehow strangly manage to roll the Spell on your Level 1 Beast Wizard, then try to borrow a model. You should provide it yourself anyway, since there is a 1 in 6 Chance to get it.
If you plan to get the spell, then bring a model yourself.
If you play a Third Eye Wizard and plan to copy such Uberspells, you should bring some mutated beast yourself.

If you want to spawn Horrors, Nurglings, Clan Rats and the such, you also have to provide the minis. I really don't see why it should be different with this thing. It's not "just a spell", it's an ultimate after all.

Kevlar
12-10-2010, 22:44
If you somehow strangly manage to roll the Spell on your Level 1 Beast Wizard, then try to borrow a model. You should provide it yourself anyway, since there is a 1 in 6 Chance to get it.
If you plan to get the spell, then bring a model yourself.
If you play a Third Eye Wizard and plan to copy such Uberspells, you should bring some mutated beast yourself.

If you want to spawn Horrors, Nurglings, Clan Rats and the such, you also have to provide the minis. I really don't see why it should be different with this thing. It's not "just a spell", it's an ultimate after all.

Exactly! If a vampire player wants to summon some zombies behind your unit he can't just throw a couple of coins down on the table.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 22:57
...But zombies are a normal part of the army and GW sells a relatively inexpensive zombie kit. I do bring extra zombies and skellies with me when I play but I've never had an opponent have a great issue if I grab whatever models I have to hand on 20mm bases to bulk out raised zombie regiments when I run out of zombos. On more than one occasion zombie units have been supplemented by borrowing models from my opponent's dead pile, something my opponents tend to agree is entirely appropriate!

Still, a few extra rank and file troops for a basic spell that all wizards of that race can guarantee to have is a bit different from a top spell in a rulebook lore that requires a large centerpiece model yet has no existing GW model.

Chris_
13-10-2010, 01:13
LI: What about the things that don't have models? Would you let a Skaven player proxy a HPA with a Giant for example?

I am on the team that requires you to have the model (at least in a tournament setting) or borrow it. For a friendly game I can go with a proxy. No coke-cans though...

Lord Inquisitor
13-10-2010, 01:21
There's a world of difference between a unit that is bought for your army and a unit that may get summoned if you a) roll the spell and b) cast the spell. The transformation monster is essentially a spell marker, and we don't expect fully converted and painted centerpiece models for purple sun.

sulla
18-10-2010, 07:16
There's a world of difference between a unit that is bought for your army and a unit that may get summoned if you a) roll the spell and b) cast the spell. The transformation monster is essentially a spell marker, and we don't expect fully converted and painted centerpiece models for purple sun.

"If the orb touches a character, they must make a successful magic test or be killed intantly, turning into a small amethyst that is worth about 50gc."

Description of purple sun from Realms of Sorcery roleplay guide in 2001.

Would be fun to make the death magic player invest in a bunch of small precious gems just to use the spell....

Also, pretty hard for most players to get their hands on a decent chimera model. :) I'd just ask that players use a similar sized monster if they have one available.

leeoaks
19-10-2010, 00:02
ha so does a high elf retain ASF??

Lex
19-10-2010, 00:08
Yes, its a special rule. And DE have hatred and Skaven have SiN and Lizzies have cold-blooded.

Lord_Elric
19-10-2010, 00:12
"If the orb touches a character, they must make a successful magic test or be killed intantly, turning into a small amethyst that is worth about 50gc."

Description of purple sun from Realms of Sorcery roleplay guide in 2001.

Would be fun to make the death magic player invest in a bunch of small precious gems just to use the spell....

Also, pretty hard for most players to get their hands on a decent chimera model. :) I'd just ask that players use a similar sized monster if they have one available.

that is agreeable to be honest id leave the transformation much like magic weapons they dont nesscerarily have to match the book i mean i use a converted griffon model as a dark pegasus and thats fine so why not just use a dragon and say this is a particuarly deadly dragon thats a little mad

Trains_Get_Robbed
19-10-2010, 03:17
You all want to know something funny? So far since finishing my devishly handsome Mt. Chimera, I have yet to either A: turn into one, or B: get the spell off. :/ Quite disappointing.

Edit: Yes, H.E retain Speed of Asyurun when turned into a Mt. Chimera.

Sandals
19-10-2010, 17:38
I think I'm really torn between the two camps here. Yes, one one hand I would expet someone who writes the Lore of Beasts into their army list to have some sort of model available for ToK, just in case. Yet I don't think I would expect them to have all 5 different models, and if it were a conversion on something cheap I would be fine with that too.

The issue arises when we are talking about the Dunce Cap or Third Eye/Glean Magic. You don't know what you're getting beforehand with that, yet it would also be unreasonable to let you cast it and not replace the model with something. For Third Eye i can see you borrowing your opponant's beastie, but then the issue arises - can you steal and cast it if it is in play?

In fact, that can be a generic question: Can you "borrow" a spell through Glean Magic or Third Eye of Tzeentch if your opponant has it in play?

Glasscannon
20-10-2010, 03:28
There is no mention of it, the wizard gains knowledge of the spell from the opponents mind and when in play he still knows the spell, id say you can.

macbeth
23-10-2010, 10:22
Well, that may be a stupid question, but how could a vampire use transformation? They can only use their own lore, save for Manfred who knows the death lore. But anyway, they have no means to have the lore of the beast, haven't they?

Atrahasis
23-10-2010, 10:28
They have a Vampiric Power which grants Loremaster of any rulebook lore except Life.

macbeth
23-10-2010, 10:32
Ooops, sorry, I didn't see it!