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Venerable_Bede
05-09-2010, 21:43
Here's the scenario.

Chaos Warriors vs. Dwarfs.

In his turn, Chaos casts a Remains in Play (RIP) spell. Dwarf tries to dispell, but fails.

Now it's the Dwarfs turn. The BRB says that RIP spells can be dispelled either in the turn of the side that cast it (using dispel dice) or in your own turn, using your Power Dice as dispel dice.

So, the question is, can Dwarfs do this? They don't have wizards, so do they get power dice in their own turn that they can use as dispel dice on a RIP spell?

Thank you.

Laton
05-09-2010, 21:45
I can see nothing in the BRB that says you need any wizards to gain your 2D6 power dice in your magic phase, so yes this should be how it works (and is intended to work).

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 21:55
Here's the scenario.

Chaos Warriors vs. Dwarfs.

In his turn, Chaos casts a Remains in Play (RIP) spell. Dwarf tries to dispell, but fails.

Now it's the Dwarfs turn. The BRB says that RIP spells can be dispelled either in the turn of the side that cast it (using dispel dice) or in your own turn, using your Power Dice as dispel dice.

So, the question is, can Dwarfs do this? They don't have wizards, so do they get power dice in their own turn that they can use as dispel dice on a RIP spell?

Thank you.

Bottom Paragraph, page 37, tells us that if "you no longer have any wizards with any useful spells to cast", then the magic phase ends and shooting begins.

Therefore you could argue that you won't get to roll for the Winds of Magic as your phase would trigger the requirement to end it before you roll as you have no wizards with useful spells.

Most players (myself included) would let you roll though :)

Toodles

mishari26
05-09-2010, 23:32
Is having spells a requirement for Wind of Magic??

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 23:39
Indirectly yes, having a wizard with "useful spells" is effectively a requirement to have a magic phase to cast spells. Dwarves as a rule of thumb, don't have that.

Last paragraph tells us when the casting player has no more casting attempts for one reason or another, the magic phase ends. Dwarves (unless the Anvil says otherwise for one reason or another) never have any wizards who can make casting attempts and have no "remaining useful spells" left to cast, so the trigger that ends the phase is already in effect as soon as the magic phase starts. Ergo, no casting phase, no rolling for Winds of Magic (p37).

That is pure exploit though.

Toodles

SiNNiX
05-09-2010, 23:40
Man, I haven't even come across this scenario yet. Great question!

"At the start of the Magic Phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic Phase by rolling 2D6."
Page 30.

Rolling for Winds of Magic is clearly the first step of the Magic Phase, not the Next Spell step. Therefore, Dwarfs are able to roll for Winds of Magic, completing the first step of their Magic Phase, but are then only able to attempt to dispel RIP spells and then must immediately skip to the end of the phase. There is nowhere in the rulebook or any Erratas that state that an army must have the ability to cast spells in order to have a Magic Phase, just like an army without Shooting can still have a Shooting Phase, however uneventful it may be.

TheTrueSloth, I know exactly what you're trying to say, and there's almost no flaw in your argument at all. However, as the quote you're taking does come from Step 5 of the Magic Phase (meaning you must first go through the first 4 steps), all armies are able to benefit from drawing power from the Winds of Magic.

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 23:47
*snip*

Good call SiNNiX! I may use that one in my games to let my dwarf opponents get their 2D6 roll.

And I have just seen "When the casting player has finished all his casting attempts" in the sentence too.

There is room to exploit the passage
When the casting player has finished all his casting attempts either because he has run out of power dice or has no remaining useful spells to cast, the magic phase ends and the shooting phase begins.

So you could find some player pushing that, as Dwarves never have any spells to cast, the trigger is in effect as soon as the magic phase starts. Somewhere you would have to squeeze in dispel attempts inbetween:

"Roll 2D6"
"No useful spells, no casting attempts, phase ends".

Bearing in mind the step for casting spells comes before dispelling spells in the RAW order (p29)

Toodles


TheTrueSloth, I know exactly what you're trying to say, and there's almost no flaw in your argument at all. However, as the quote you're taking does come from Step 5 of the Magic Phase (meaning you must first go through the first 4 steps), all armies are able to benefit from drawing power from the Winds of Magic.

Granted, the problem is we have to squeeze in "Roll 2D6" in step one and being forced to jump to the end phase of step 5 (as we can't hope to fulfil steps 2 and 4) - and the dispel step comes in step 3, therefore we could *wangle* in the idea that we roll and the phase ends purely because we go:

"Roll for Winds of Magic"
"No useful spells or casting attempts, phase ends".

2nd EDIT: I just realised how badly I worded that discussion point. :o

TheTrueSloth
05-09-2010, 23:57
I do want to add though I don't believe the rules are meant to be played this way and I am discussing the counter point purely as a matter of speculation ;)

Toodles

T10
06-09-2010, 00:15
I predict this:


Player1: "Ok, magic phase. Here's 2d6, I get nine power dice, you get five dispel dice. I'm gonna try and dispel your Throne of Vines."

Player2: "Wait, I read on the Internet that some guy figured that Dwarfs can't dispel Remains in play spells since the Magic Phase immediately ends!"

Player1: "What dude?"

Player2: "I dunno, but he says the magic phase immediately ends once you've got no more spells to cast and since you're playing Dwarfs..."

Player1: "Friend, that internet dude sounds like a complete tool! Are we gonna play this game or not?"

Player2: "Yeah, roll those dice, bro!"

Or something less street.

-T10

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 00:26
*snip*

I lol'd so hard reading that, thanks for that ;)

Though after some of the discussion points I have heard in the last 48 hours in my local GW, I wouldn't put it past some people. Really.

I should have said something closer to:


Step 1: Roll for Winds of Magic
Step 2: Casting spells.

And


When the casting player has finished all his casting attempts either because he has run out of power dice or has no remaining useful spells to cast, the magic phase ends and the shooting phase begins.

Which could be taken as:


Player 1: Ok, I've rolled two 6's**! You get six dispel dice!

Player 2: But dude, you don't get a magic phase.

Player 1: What?!

Player 2: Check page 37, rule tells us that ultimately your dwarves end their magic phase when they have no casting attempts. You don't have any wizards, do you?

Player 1: No...

Player 2: Then your magic phase ends.

Player 1: *smashes opponent in the face with the RBRB*

** Because I never roll double sixes for anything. Ever. Instead, I can roll 12 1's :o

In reality, it'd probably be more like:


Player 1: Ok, I have 2 6's! You get 6 dispel dice.

Player 2: But dude, you don't get a magic phase.

Player 1: What?!

Player 2: Check page 37, rule tells us that ultimately your dwarves end their magic phase when they have no casting attempts. You don't have any wizards, do you?

Player 1: No...

Player 2: Then your magic phase ends.

Intervening Judge: You got that from the same guy who argued about OMR and IP, right?

Player 2: Yes...

Intervening Judge: *hands coat and army case* GTFO.

Player 2: But its' RAW!

*Silence*

Intervening Judge: *repeats motions and statement*

:)

Toodles

Tae
06-09-2010, 00:43
Though to be honest with the amount of bonus dispel dice and dispel scroll runes the Dwarfs can stack, they don't deserve to get 2d6 bonus dispel dice as well!

But I can't see myself being that much of a tool to deny them it, even if it does make getting non IF magic off against a tooled out Dwarf army impossible.

Khazadson
06-09-2010, 10:23
Though to be honest with the amount of bonus dispel dice and dispel scroll runes the Dwarfs can stack, they don't deserve to get 2d6 bonus dispel dice as well!

But I can't see myself being that much of a tool to deny them it, even if it does make getting non IF magic off against a tooled out Dwarf army impossible.

The magic phase in 8th has become very powerful and the Dwarfs can't use it. If you ask me they deserve 3D6 power dice to dispel remains in play spells.

Little Joe
06-09-2010, 11:18
Dwarfs can dispel in their magic phase, using the dice gained from winds of magic. Period.

Should you argue he hasn't got any wizards, then tell me who does the dispelling in the other players magic phase work? Other armies need a wizard there to, dwarfs don't. Dwarfs only loose this ability, when joined by an allied wizard.

Dwarfs never lose their +2 to dispels either.

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 11:21
Dwarfs never lose their +2 to dispels either.

Of course not, their general aura of grumpiness, fist waving, burping, drinking and disdain for anyone not like them provides the dispel effects for the army.

Tell me, what rule tells us we need a wizard to dispel a spell in the opponent's magic phase?

According to RAW, Dwarves don't get to roll the 2D6. Period.

As far as myself and other will go though, we'll let you roll.

Toodles

EDIT: scratch that, found the reference that tells us opposing wizards make the dispel attempt, second paragraph, page 35.

So yeah, according to RAW, Dwarves can't dispel AT ALL.

2nd EDIT: Nope, just been corrected.

Korraz
06-09-2010, 11:37
So, like always: RAW is stupid.

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 11:40
So, like always: RAW is stupid.

Yeah, pretty much. But we're told to play by RAW too by GW :shifty:

Anyone else in favour of just making a "RAI Warhammer Rulebook"?

Toodles

Little Joe
06-09-2010, 11:58
Of course not, their general aura of grumpiness, fist waving, burping, drinking and disdain for anyone not like them provides the dispel effects for the army.

Tell me, what rule tells us we need a wizard to dispel a spell in the opponent's magic phase?

According to RAW, Dwarves don't get to roll the 2D6. Period.

As far as myself and other will go though, we'll let you roll.

Toodles

EDIT: scratch that, found the reference that tells us opposing wizards make the dispel attempt, second paragraph, page 35.

So yeah, according to RAW, Dwarves can't dispel AT ALL.

You need a wizard to dispel, after he fails and can no longer dispel the next takes over. None left means no more dispel. Look up page 35 "choose wizard".

The rules for wind of magic are non wizard related, they kick in with channeling for extra dice. Everybody rolls for the 2D6, so dwarfs do as well. RAW(page 30) just states at the start of each magic phase, dwarf do have one, they just can't cast.

Little Joe
06-09-2010, 12:12
Bottom of page 35 rules for dwarfs and dispel, they have an army rule allowing for +2 to any dispel attempt. With dwarfs it is not a wizard that dispels but the army itself, so as long as you are on the board you dispel. That is why they dispel always and in any phase with any dice available.

SkawtheFalconer
06-09-2010, 12:13
Incorrect. You don't need a Wizard to dispel. If you run out of available wizards, either through breaking of concentration or death (!), the army itself can attempt to dispel with dice from the pool. It doesn't get any boosts for level (obviously), and doesn't lose concentration if it fails to dispel.

[EDIT] Also, I think you guys are potentially misreading the phrase, "if you no longer have any wizards with any useful spells to cast". For example, my Chaos Warriors have obliterated my High Elf opponent to such an extent that all he has left are some dragon princes. I only have a Fire wizard with Fireball - as it is not a USEFUL spell (i.e. it won't have any effect on them), I CHOOSE not to cast it. It doesn't mean I CAN'T cast, however.

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 12:40
Incorrect. You don't need a Wizard to dispel. If you run out of available wizards, either through breaking of concentration or death (!), the army itself can attempt to dispel with dice from the pool. It doesn't get any boosts for level (obviously), and doesn't lose concentration if it fails to dispel.

Just had that pointed out to me actually, the army can dispel.


[EDIT] Also, I think you guys are potentially misreading the phrase, "if you no longer have any wizards with any useful spells to cast". For example, my Chaos Warriors have obliterated my High Elf opponent to such an extent that all he has left are some dragon princes. I only have a Fire wizard with Fireball - as it is not a USEFUL spell (i.e. it won't have any effect on them), I CHOOSE not to cast it. It doesn't mean I CAN'T cast, however.

You're defining "no more useful spells" as "no more spells you can cast". You can cast the spell, but it won't have any effect. Therefore, the spell is of no use to you - it is not useful. Therefore, the rules could end the phase there and then.

Toodles

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 12:46
The rules for wind of magic are non wizard related, they kick in with channeling for extra dice. Everybody rolls for the 2D6, so dwarfs do as well. RAW(page 30) just states at the start of each magic phase, dwarf do have one, they just can't cast.

We're not stopping you rolling the 2D6. I'm pointing out the requirement to end the phase before you even reach the idea of a casting chunk of the phase. In effect, as soon as that chunk of the phase comes round, the whole phase ends.

Toodles

EDIT: Actually, I guess we are.

Da Crusha
06-09-2010, 12:59
strictly by RAW dwarfs can dispel during their turn. first we start with step 1 roll for winds of magic, then step 2 cast, being dwarfs we cannot cast but it is ok because step 3 dispel we get to dispel with power dice and then step 4 resolve spells, but as dwarfs we have none to resolve. finally step 5 Next Spell begins, which is the only step that instantly ends the magic phase because of this rule " ... or has no remaining or useful spells to cast ... the magic phase ends and the shooting phase begins." pg.37 last paragraph.

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 13:01
strictly by RAW dwarfs can dispel during their turn. first we start with step 1 roll for winds of magic, then step 2 cast, being dwarfs we cannot cast but it is ok because step 3 dispel we get to dispel with power dice and then step 4 resolve spells, but as dwarfs we have none to resolve. finally step 5 Next Spell begins, which is the only step that instantly ends the magic phase because of this rule " ... or has no remaining or useful spells to cast ... the magic phase ends and the shooting phase begins." pg.37 last paragraph.

I'll get back to you in a minute on that one, the missus is booting me off the pc :shifty:

Toodles

Little Joe
06-09-2010, 13:07
We're not stopping you rolling the 2D6. I'm pointing out the requirement to end the phase before you even reach the idea of a casting chunk of the phase. In effect, as soon as that chunk of the phase comes round, the whole phase ends.

Toodles

I see your point and stand corrected on wizards and dispels. For RAW I refer to page 36 remeains in play spells second paragraph: "remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent magic phase". I chose to dispell after winds of magic (1) and before casting (2), after I no longer have any dice to dispell and have no spell for casting I go to next spell (5) and end my magic phase.
So any army should be able to do it.;)

theunwantedbeing
06-09-2010, 13:11
Seems to be another case of just hit the other guy with yuor rulebook untill he agree's or stops twitching.

The magic phase goes
1. Roll for the winds of magic
2. Cast
3. Dispel
4. Spell resolution
5. Next spell

Only in stage 5 does it say that the magic phase ends.

Also remains in play can be dispelled at any point in the magic phase. So dwarves dispel in that infintecimal timeframe between rolling and the magic phase ending due to lack of useful spells.

Either way, you can't argue they don't get to dispel at all because of what the dispel remains in play rules say.

T10
06-09-2010, 13:13
I don't see a problem with this rationale, mostly because it spits in the eye of the lamest attempt at rules nit-picking this week.

-T10

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 15:15
For the record guys, I'll repeat - I'm not actually insisting we "should" play this way, I'm just discussing it as a point of interest rather than being serious about it as such.


Either way, you can't argue they don't get to dispel at all because of what the dispel remains in play rules say.

So you can dispel it before you've rolled on the Winds of Magic? Wow, those dwarves sure are hard as nails :p

If we want to argue:


but that rule comes in step 5, so we go through the other steps to get there first

Then I can argue:


The rules for remains in play spells are in step 4: Spell Resolution - we only go to Step 4 when we have gone past Steps Two and Three.

Dwarf opponents don't go through Step 3: Dispel which states:

"If the Wizard was able to cast his spell (and it was not cast with irresistible force) the opposing player now has a chance to prevent the spell's effects by attempting to dispel it.".

Because they don't have anything to do in Step 2: Cast as they have no Wizards to cast anything with with. Therefore, we don't go to Step 4: Spell Resolution (where the rules for Remains in Play spells are) because we have no spells to resolve. Therefore the only thing left to do is to go to the last step in the phase that tells us to end the phase if we don't have remaining casting attempts or useful spells or power dice left.


Also remains in play can be dispelled at any point in the magic phase. So dwarves dispel in that infintecimal timeframe between rolling and the magic phase ending due to lack of useful spells.

Since when did we start playing Magic: The Gathering? The rules also tell us that you end the phase when your Wizards no longer have any casting attempts to due lack of useful spells, power dice or broken concentration. You don't even have a spell to attempt casting when the phase began (before we even rolled for Winds of Magic) and you had no useful spells either, therefore the phase would end.

At this point, I would like to repeat:

I'm not actually insisting we "should" play this way, I'm just discussing it as a point of interest rather than being serious about it as such.

And yes, I know the argument sucks :p

Toodles

T10
06-09-2010, 15:24
But it's not really that interesting, is it?

-T10

Tae
06-09-2010, 17:13
The magic phase in 8th has become very powerful and the Dwarfs can't use it. If you ask me they deserve 3D6 power dice to dispel remains in play spells.

Not really since short of IF, no spells are going to get through against most Dwarf armies anyway since in a 2k army Dwarfs can easily fit into less than half their character allowance a +4 dispel dice, 2 dispel scrolls that destroy the spell on a 4+ and 6 dispel scrolls (all are variously named runes).

Sorry, they need no help whatsoever. In fact they need to have their runic access limited because I've yet to see any spell that is going to do a serious amount of damage (that's not been IF'd) get through against a Dwarf army.

Da Crusha
06-09-2010, 21:39
You don't even have a spell to attempt casting when the phase began (before we even rolled for Winds of Magic) and you had no useful spells either, therefore the phase would end.


yes that would still happen, in step 5, after dispelling attempts.

dimetri1
06-09-2010, 22:55
As a Dwarf player I do not think I get the power dice but I have played in three tournaments and in all three it was ruled that I did. I do not argue with judges especially when they rule in my favor. I just go into a game not expecting to get those dice and if I am told that I do it is a bonus.

Surgency
06-09-2010, 23:37
Since when did we start playing Magic: The Gathering? The rules also tell us that you end the phase when your Wizards no longer have any casting attempts to due lack of useful spells, power dice or broken concentration. You don't even have a spell to attempt casting when the phase began (before we even rolled for Winds of Magic) and you had no useful spells either, therefore the phase would end.


Which makes me think of a question... What if you have a non-wizard character with a bound item, and no actual wizards in the army? Does that mean the character can never use the bound item? After all, he's not a wizard...

TheTrueSloth
06-09-2010, 23:56
But it's not really that interesting, is it?

-T10

No, I guess not actually. Not the topic itself, just trying to lock wits with other players who know the rules as well as myself (if not more so) and seeing what different readings we get. Certainly seeing as the store manager in my local GW is incompetent and you can't get a good argument out of a kid.


yes that would still happen, in step 5, after dispelling attempts.

Dispelling RIP spells is in step 4: spell resolution, dispelling spells just cast is in Step 3: Dispel. We only attempt to dispel spells in step 3 that have just been successfully cast. We resolve spells in Step 4 because we have successfully cast a spell that has resolved. Neither of these things has happened because the requirement in Step 2: Cast was never met. Therefore, we're left with no choice but to use the end requirement in Step 5 to end the phase.


As a Dwarf player I do not think I get the power dice but I have played in three tournaments and in all three it was ruled that I did. I do not argue with judges especially when they rule in my favor. I just go into a game not expecting to get those dice and if I am told that I do it is a bonus.

Most tournaments, judges and players will let you have the 2D6 power dice because its' in the spirit of the rules. I know I would. It is silly not to allow it, even if it is flexibly RAW.


Which makes me think of a question... What if you have a non-wizard character with a bound item, and no actual wizards in the army? Does that mean the character can never use the bound item? After all, he's not a wizard...

I had to reference the RBRB to check this one, but the rules show us that (a) the bound item is a spell (that in most cases, we could describe as useful) and (b) that casting a spell from a bound item is just like casting a normal spell. The paragraph at the end tells us "When you have finished your casting attempts..." (all references in page 37).

Therefore yes, a character with a bound item that has a magic spell in it can cast it even if you have no Wizards.

Toodles

Da Crusha
07-09-2010, 00:18
Dispelling RIP spells is in step 4: spell resolution, dispelling spells just cast is in Step 3: Dispel. We only attempt to dispel spells in step 3 that have just been successfully cast. We resolve spells in Step 4 because we have successfully cast a spell that has resolved. Neither of these things has happened because the requirement in Step 2: Cast was never met. Therefore, we're left with no choice but to use the end requirement in Step 5 to end the phase.


ok suppose you are right, it makes no difference because in the remains in play spells section it specifically says "...remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent magic phase..."

step 1) roll for winds of magic
immediately dispel remains in play spells before beginning step 2

TheTrueSloth
07-09-2010, 00:26
ok suppose you are right, it makes no difference because in the remains in play spells section it specifically says "...remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent magic phase..."

step 1) roll for winds of magic
immediately dispel remains in play spells before beginning step 2

Very true. We could also be really stupid and argue:


The rules also tell us that you end the phase when your Wizards no longer have any casting attempts to due lack of useful spells, power dice or broken concentration. You don't even have a spell to attempt casting when the phase began (before we even rolled for Winds of Magic) and you had no useful spells either, therefore the phase would end.

We can't have had "no more power dice to use", because we haven't even generated them at that point to use up. We don't have Wizards with broken concentration because the Wizards have not attempted to cast a spell (and failed) yet. We do have no wizards and no useful or remaining spells to attempt however, which is one of the requirements to end the phase. Therefore:


Magic Phase begins.
*Insert trigger for ending the magic phase*
Step 1: Roll for the Winds of Magic.
*Squeeze in dispel attempt(s)*
*Oh, never mind, the phase ended before we got there*

Toodles

EDIT: Probably best we pick one here. Either we state the magic phase happens in a strict order (1,2, 3, 4, 5) which leaves us room to ignore the "at any point" passage because the dwarves bypass that entry. Or we argue that the rules apply as relevant and - as a result, the ending trigger can take effect before the Winds of Magic are rolled.

Da Crusha
07-09-2010, 05:00
trigger for ending magic phase doesn't happen til step 5

actually going by your logic, you say we can't have a step 2 because we have nothing to cast and we cant have a step 3 because nothing was cast or step 4 because there is nothing to resolve but actually we can't even have a step 5 because there is no next spell. so there is no trigger to end the magic phase.

SiNNiX
07-09-2010, 05:27
We could also be really stupid

Doing a good job.

I thought I was pretty clear on how this worked... Dwarfs, per the rules in the Warhammer Rulebook, get to roll for Winds of Magic and are able to dispel Remains in Play spells. There is literally no argument here. You can only completely twist the rules and their wordings to your advantage for so long, but when you ignore the obvious wording, you just get ridiculous.

Stop. This is a laughable argument.

SiNNiX
07-09-2010, 05:28
trigger for ending magic phase doesn't happen til step 5

actually going by your logic, you say we can't have a step 2 because we have nothing to cast and we cant have a step 3 because nothing was cast or step 4 because there is nothing to resolve but actually we can't even have a step 5 because there is no next spell. so there is no trigger to end the magic phase.

Haha, just read this! I don't know who this guy is, but he's a genius! :)

JonnyTHM
07-09-2010, 05:43
EDIT: Probably best we pick one here. Either we state the magic phase happens in a strict order (1,2, 3, 4, 5) which leaves us room to ignore the "at any point" passage because the dwarves bypass that entry. Or we argue that the rules apply as relevant and - as a result, the ending trigger can take effect before the Winds of Magic are rolled.

I think the part that you're missing of the argument here is that if we go with the second option, that you still get to dispel spells as: we're told to generate power dice at the start of the phase, we're told to end the phase whenever we're out of spells, and we're told we can dispel them at any time in the magic phase.

All 3 say they should/can go at the same time. Luckily there's a rule that tells us how to resolve that, it's that they're resolved in the order chosen by the player who's turn it is. In that case, if you're a dwarf player, and you want to dispel things, you should just choose the order to be: generate dice, dispel spells, end phase.

TheTrueSloth
07-09-2010, 12:09
@JohnnyTHM:

*waves white flag*

Alright, alright, you've got me! Lol, I give, I give! I'm just not willing to get into more of an argument over whether "Dispel at any point", "End when we have no spells to cast" and "rolling power dice" happen in a set order or not over a topic I actually agree with the rest of the posters on in essence. :angel:


Doing a good job.

*facepalm*

Actually, I was about comment on the sentiment of this response, but then I figured it simply wouldn't be worth any more of a response than I am about to give. I'll leave it at saying "Shame on you" on that one. :o


trigger for ending magic phase doesn't happen til step 5

Actually, it happens when there are no more useable/castable spells/whatever other requirements there are.


actually going by your logic, you say we can't have a step 2 because we have nothing to cast and we cant have a step 3 because nothing was cast or step 4 because there is nothing to resolve but actually we can't even have a step 5 because there is no next spell. so there is no trigger to end the magic phase.

So then you argue yourself into a paradoxical loop, or at least it would be except the rules tell us how to end the phase. By your suggestion of my assertion just there, even if we had Wizards who could cast spells, we would cast/dispel/resolve/look for next spell...except there's no more spells, so we skip two, three and four and then skip five as there's no more spells to look to cast. :shifty:

You can have Step 2: Cast, because that is the step in which you attempt to cast your spells, as defined in the RBRB. We simply ignore the process of going through casting spells because we don't have spells to cast. We only refuse to address steps three and four because there is no spell to dispel or resolve. Step 2 only tells us we can attempt to cast our spells. Step 5 tells us we look for our next spell (so we refer to Step 2, which we can get to) but tells us that "should we run out of spells and the like, the phase ends". It's clear very quickly we have no more spells to cast by the time we reach that phase, therefore the phase can end. :p

Toodles

SiNNiX
07-09-2010, 20:53
Sorry, buddy. Just thought this argument was getting a little out of hand with its creativity, especially when the rules are pretty obvious and right in front of you.

smithers
08-09-2010, 04:14
Can we get an admin to kill this thread with fire please?

Intentionally confusing people and bending the rules is NOT the purpose of the Rules forum. I understand someone who might do this in order to win a game, but just for amusement? OMG go paint some minis or something. ... and "toodles"? <shiver>

SiNNiX
08-09-2010, 05:18
Can we get an admin to kill this thread with fire please?

Intentionally confusing people and bending the rules is NOT the purpose of the Rules forum. I understand someone who might do this in order to win a game, but just for amusement? OMG go paint some minis or something. ... and "toodles"? <shiver>

Although I definitely agree with your initial comment, making fun of someone for saying "Toodles" at the end of every single thread? That's wrong, man... that's just sick. You're sick.

But yes, the argument against the obvious in this thread was a little far-fetched and, quite honestly, hilarious. :)

smithers
08-09-2010, 06:16
Although I definitely agree with your initial comment, making fun of someone for saying "Toodles" at the end of every single thread? That's wrong, man... that's just sick. You're sick.

But yes, the argument against the obvious in this thread was a little far-fetched and, quite honestly, hilarious. :)

Sick? That's funny.

You inspired me to google that obnoxious non-word and I thought that the definitions at Urban Dictionary were pretty funny:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=toodles

For me this has nothing to do with homophobia by the way, but I find it hard to believe anyone could use this word in conversation or in forums without the intention of getting under people's skin (which it seems to me is the whole point with those posts!)

Da Crusha
08-09-2010, 08:06
*waves white flag*

Alright, alright, you've got me! Lol, I give, I give!... I actually agree with the rest of the posters on in essence. :angel:


translation (for those who don't speak trollish):
"ahah hah hah!! i gotcha!!! you lose i win!!!
ahah hah hah!! i gotcha!!! and i'll getcha again!!!"



(yes, that is from an old garfield cartoon.)

decker_cky
08-09-2010, 08:32
You know if you try to pull that on your opponent, they'll just make you read the first phrase of "Next spell."

"With the spell resolved..."

Oh, I haven't resolved a spell so obviously I'm not at that point yet.

knightime98
08-09-2010, 09:09
I like it as a Dwarf player when my opponent says that, "I must roll for winds of magic"!
He is a VC player with a Black Coach.
All the power dice that I roll a 6 on he gets a power up.
So, by this variation. The Dwarves Must roll for the Winds of magic.
Power up all the VC Black Coaches then end the magic phase as they have nothing more useful to do.

How idiotic is that!

"Lucy!, Someone has some SPLAINING to do! "

goodz
08-09-2010, 22:39
if you gave your dwarfs a bound item, could they then argue that they have spells to cast? If you are playing some bum who won't let you roll winds of magic to dispel on your turn i would do that:)

Thundergod
08-09-2010, 23:17
except, of course, you can't give Dwarves items with bound spells.

Da Crusha
09-09-2010, 00:39
if you gave your dwarfs a bound item, could they then argue that they have spells to cast? If you are playing some bum who won't let you roll winds of magic to dispel on your turn i would do that:)

you are completely allowed to roll on the winds of magic and dispel on your own turn as a dwarf player.

TheTrueSloth
09-09-2010, 00:54
translation (for those who don't speak trollish):
"ahah hah hah!! i gotcha!!! you lose i win!!!
ahah hah hah!! i gotcha!!! and i'll getcha again!!!"



(yes, that is from an old garfield cartoon.)

Wow. Cute.

Since your fabulously deep insight and wisdom has clearly been unable to help you find a more accurate assertion, perhaps I should spit it out for you?

Up until the point Johnny posted, I had no reason to stick with your assertions, which were as ambiguous and as vague as my own. As it stands, Johnny pointed out one of the rules I had forgotten in its' entirety - what when the specific order of things isn't clear, the person who's turn it is chooses. Knowing this, I stopped arguing the point because I had confirmation in RAW that I had got it completely wrong rather than just someone stating it (which at best is conjecture).

Toodles

Da Crusha
09-09-2010, 01:19
As it stands, Johnny pointed out one of the rules I had forgotten in its' entirety - what when the specific order of things isn't clear, the person who's turn it is chooses.


the order of things is very clear as your "trigger" only happens in step 5. unless you can point out where exactly it says in the rulebook your trigger happens earlier.

SiNNiX
09-09-2010, 01:45
Johnny pointed out one of the rules I had forgotten in its' entirety

For someone who uses such an elaborate vocabulary, I would think you'd be aware that when you use the word "its" to show ownership, you never use an apostrophe (as that implies a contraction).

Just joking, Toodles! I just felt like taking this thread in an unnecessary direction. Getting bored with the initial (concluded) argument. Usually, when someone corrects someone else on grammar, the entire thread shifts to a grammar argument and it's always hilarious. Wait... its always hilarious? Sorry again. :)

The rest of you... go somewhere else and leave TheTrueSloth alone! He means well.

This thread is dead.

Thundergod
09-09-2010, 02:21
GRAMMER FIGHT!!!
Does -its'- even exist as a correct form for anything? Normally that placement of the apostrophe would indicate plural possesive, but clearly that is not possible in this case. . .

SiNNiX
09-09-2010, 03:58
GRAMMER FIGHT!!!
Does -its'- even exist as a correct form for anything? Normally that placement of the apostrophe would indicate plural possesive, but clearly that is not possible in this case. . .

Dude, stop! Haha!

Good stuff.

Modaavi
09-09-2010, 23:38
I like it as a Dwarf player when my opponent says that, "I must roll for winds of magic"!
He is a VC player with a Black Coach.
All the power dice that I roll a 6 on he gets a power up.
So, by this variation. The Dwarves Must roll for the Winds of magic.
Power up all the VC Black Coaches then end the magic phase as they have nothing more useful to do.

How idiotic is that!

"Lucy!, Someone has some SPLAINING to do! "

Good point brought up here that I am positive I haven't seen a VC player in my area enforce. If Dwarves get a Winds of Magic roll to dispell RIP spells, they must also make that roll each turn if a Black Coach is in play to see if it powers up.

knightime98
10-09-2010, 04:06
You miss the complete picture here.
The point is by what the OP is saying,

1. Dwarves Roll for Winds of Magic
2. Power up VC black Coach
3. You have no useful spells to cast, So the magic phase ends.

You don't even get to dispel!
This is the idiotic part.

This is according to what is currently floating about on this particular thread.

Edit: You know this would be a very fluffy thing to add to the Dwarf book when it is released.
Meaning that the Dwarf player can elect to NOT roll for the winds of magic. Thus not powering a Black Coach OR allowing a Rod of Power to get dice or the Black Periapt to get an extra die. It's all kinds of fluffy for the Dwarf player with their so called anti magic aura. However, if they do decide to roll the winds of magic, it would be for the sole purpose of dispelling a spell(s) that are in play. I like the idea very much.

Da Crusha
10-09-2010, 09:18
3. You have no useful spells to cast, So the magic phase ends.


you can dispel remains in play spells at any time during the next magic phase. ANYTIME.