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adbower
06-03-2006, 21:53
This question is kinda complex, so bare with me...

Character C is charged by unit A (skirmished), and then unit D (skirmished).

__DD
_CDDD
AAA
AAA


After round 1, side A&D did not lose any models, so they had a flank bonus to combat resolution. (Correct?)

C passed a break test, so unit D wrapped around...


_DDD
_CDD
AAA
AAA


After round 2, side A&D did not lose any models, do they still have a flank bonus? Do they now also have a rear bonus?

Please cite sources if you would be so kind.

Thanks!

SuperBeast
06-03-2006, 23:35
BRB Page 73.
"If you are fighting against an enemy's flank, you may add +1 bonus so long as your unit has a Unit Strength of five or more."
"The same comments apply as for a flank attack to units attacking in the rear."

It's not the US on the flank, it's the US of the flanking unit. A single model lapping around is sufficient to get the flank bonus, provided it is lapping round from a US>=5 unit.
Same goes for cancelling ranks- you can cancel ranks by lapping units to the flank. Although obviously not skirmishers.

So yes, unit D had flank in round 1, and flank & rear at round 2.

Hope that helps.

(Someone may drop in here with an errata, but I couldn't find one).

adbower
06-03-2006, 23:43
That's basically what I thought, but my opponent didn't believe I was even able to get flank or rear bonuses against a character, so I was already in the hole. Then we asked another player about the flank and rear bonuses, and he said that once I wrapped around, I only had US 4 on the flank of the character, so I lost that, and would not have rear either.

Baindread
07-03-2006, 01:16
I don't have the BRB with me, but I am pretty sure you need US5 on the rear side of the combat to get the rear bonus as well.

Major Defense
07-03-2006, 01:41
As you wrap around you voluntarily lose ranks even though those models are still "with" the unit. I don't see any reason why you would/should/could keep a side or rear bonus when deciding to wrap around. As they describe it, it is a trade off of advantages. There are plenty of reasons why someone would not want to wrap around.

adbower
07-03-2006, 01:55
I don't think it makes any sense to say that you have to have US 5 on the side or rear to get the bonus... how would you treat models on the corner? They could be part of both sides.

The only requirement I've seen is about Unit Strength. Can anyone else state a rule that adds another restriction?

T10
07-03-2006, 06:03
Superbeast is correct, though I think he is quoting a different section of the rules than what applies to lapping round.

This bit is covered in the lapping round rules section.

Units that lap round the enemy's flanks gain the +1 Combat Resolution for flanking. If they manage to lap round to the rear they gain a further +2 for... uh... rearing? :)

The unit that is lapping round must have a Unit Strength of 5 or more regardless of how many models are lapping round.

Note that you cannot lap round in ranks - at least there are no provisions for doing so.

Note that lapping round to the flanks/rear does not negate ranks in itself - the unit i question must have been successfully charged in the side or rear to lose his ranks.

Festus
07-03-2006, 07:35
Hi

T10 is correct-

to the original situation-

In this case, as adbower shows it, no bonus for either rule should be gained, as both units seem to be Skirmishers, who cannot claim bonusses for flank or rear to combat resolution.

Greetings
Festus

SuperBeast
07-03-2006, 07:47
Was just preparing my victory dance for my first undisputed rules answer.

Then Festus turned up... :cries:

T10
07-03-2006, 08:13
In this case, as adbower shows it, no bonus for either rule should be gained, as both units seem to be Skirmishers, who cannot claim bonusses for flank or rear to combat resolution.


I do seem to recall that though skirmishers cannot disrupt ranks, they *do* gain bonuses to combat resolution for flanking and "rearing".

-T10

Festus
07-03-2006, 08:34
Hi

I have to check, but I am positive that Skirmishers may not claim bonusses of this sort. I don't have my rulebook here ATM (it's annoying if you lend it to a friend and want to look up something yourself..:( )

Greetings
festus

Latro
07-03-2006, 09:11
From the BRB:

- on page 116 the bonuses skirmishers lose in combat are listed, rank-bonus and negating ranks, but gaining flank/rear bonus is not listed there. Which means skirmishers do get that particular bonus.

- though skirmishers do not gain rank-bonus, they do form up in ranks and therefore can lap around if they have un-engaged models in their rear-ranks (wasn't sure about that one myself).

Hope that helps.

:cool:

Festus
07-03-2006, 09:22
Hi

Thanks for the thumbs up, Latro.

Yes, Skirmishers rank up while in combat, and thus can lap around normally. I just wasn't sure whther there are any associated bonusses for them apart from having more models in contact.

But this clears it up, then. :)

Greetings
Festus

Festus
07-03-2006, 09:25
Hi

Was just preparing my victory dance for my first undisputed rules answer.

Lucky git, now I have to take all the blame... :cries:

;)

Greetings
Festus

PS: One still cannot copy a text while composing, as to paste it into another post ... this leads to *annoying* double posts.

ZomboCom
07-03-2006, 11:31
Yes, skirmishers DO gain rank/rear bonuses, as long as they are unit strength 5.

They do not, of course, break ranks.

Likewise, lapping round can gain you the flank and/or rear bonuses, but will not break ranks if you charged in the front initially.

Flame
07-03-2006, 11:39
Yes, skirmishers DO gain rank/rear bonuses, as long as they are unit strength 5.

Skirmisher's most definatly do NOT gain rank bonus's!

SuperBeast
07-03-2006, 11:48
Skirmisher's most definatly do NOT gain rank bonus's!
To clarify, Skirmishers do not gain rank bonus for having additional models behind the front rank.
They do, however, gain the bonuses for engaging an enemy unit in it's flank or rear.

I hope that's what Zombocom meant, anyway...

Festus
07-03-2006, 12:06
Yes, skirmishers DO gain flank/rear bonuses, as long as they are unit strength 5.

FYP

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
07-03-2006, 16:22
I do seem to recall that though skirmishers cannot disrupt ranks, they *do* gain bonuses to combat resolution for flanking and "rearing".While I'd say that you are correct about this...



Units that lap round the enemy's flanks gain the +1 Combat Resolution for flanking. If they manage to lap round to the rear they gain a further +2 for... uh... rearing? :)

The unit that is lapping round must have a Unit Strength of 5 or more regardless of how many models are lapping round.

Note that lapping round to the flanks/rear does not negate ranks in itself - the unit i question must have been successfully charged in the side or rear to lose his ranks.

...this is totally wrong. You lap around with two models per side (per turn) and you can't do so if there is no room to fit in BtB contact. Doing so can give you more attacks at the possible cost of ranks but there is no suggestion in the rules that you can gain a flank/rear bonus or cancel the unit's ranks by doing so.

T10
07-03-2006, 16:49
...this is totally wrong. You lap around with two models per side (per turn) and you can't do so if there is no room to fit in BtB contact. Doing so can give you more attacks at the possible cost of ranks but there is no suggestion in the rules that you can gain a flank/rear bonus or cancel the unit's ranks by doing so.

p. 78 (Lapping Round continued)
Combat bonuses
Models that are lapping round the flank or rear are ignored for purposes of establishing a unit's rank bonus in close combat. Lapping round models in this way might therefore reduce your rank bonus by reducing the number of ranks fighting.

However, units which are lapping round do receive the extra bonuses for flank and rear attacks so long as the unit has a Unit Strength of 5 or more. This means that, in most cases, it is well worth lapping round whenever you can. Note that models lapping around an enemy unit's flanks or rear do not negate the enemy unit's rank bonus - only a new charge into the flank or rear of a unit negates its rank bonus.

:T10 performs fatality combo:

-T10

Festus
07-03-2006, 17:10
Hi

T10- you are absolutely correct: A unit can gain flank/rear bonusses to CR if the entire unit is at least of US5. You don't need to flank with US5, US1 is enough to claim the bonus.

Greetings
Festus

Flame
07-03-2006, 23:05
...Assuming you are lapping round.

If not, it IS US5 to gain any bonus whatsoever.

ZomboCom
07-03-2006, 23:53
Skirmisher's most definatly do NOT gain rank bonus's!

Whoop, total keyboard cockup, I meant flank/rear, not rank/rear!