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Brother Alexos
08-09-2010, 06:36
Has anyone used allies like the ones featured in Whats new Today? I was thinking of a cool Chaos force with Zombies and Skellies controlled by a Tzeentch Sorcerer. Thoughts?

decker_cky
08-09-2010, 06:46
I used a mixed chaos force (beasts with daemonic allies) a few times. Depends what you're looking to do. For a fluffy mix, it works great.

To add the other sides core or specials it works pretty well too, but to add characters or rares is a bit tough.

Lowmans
08-09-2010, 08:04
Gah! You're a genius!

I can rebase my plague zombies from 40k, paint up a Nurgle sorcerer, Empire village terrain and have the beginnings of a scenario right there!

Awesome! Thank you!

Brother Alexos
08-09-2010, 23:32
Welcome, but you might also want to Pin them, to make sure you're not rebasing every two days.

I was thinking about the different weapons that regiments of infantry are (usually) allowed to carry onto the battlefield. I wanted to know if it would be better if I had 40 skellies with Spears or with Hand weapons? I think that the decision is crucial to the force, considering I want a gunline with one really big unit to hold off anyone that gets too close.

Kiras of the flame
09-09-2010, 07:24
I think that the decision is crucial to the force, considering I want a gunline with one really big unit to hold off anyone that gets too close.

so... something like 20 Handgunners/Thunderers?

or gunline as in the general ranged weaponry?

ramongoroth
09-09-2010, 19:18
Unless you have some way to boost the skeleton's performance (like via magic) spears are a waste of points. If the unit is just a 'hold them in place' unit then the parry save will do more for you than a few WS2 S3 attacks. Lastly if you are in 10 wide horde formation you'll loose models in that last rank easily further reducing the value of spears in the unit.

stummie
14-09-2010, 23:27
honestly in this case i would go with ghouls instead. With T4 they have a bit more staying power, and with no necromancer to replenish them I wouldnt count on the sticking around too long. maybe you could add a necro and say that he is a slave to the sorcerer?

reddevil18
21-09-2010, 15:28
I thought the allied rules were only for two or more people on the same team?
Thats the impression the mini-rulebook gives anyway.

LevDaddy
21-09-2010, 22:31
I'm workin on some beasties to add to my VC army. The idea of LD10 primal fury and replacing skellies with Gors is awesome.

The stigma is that allied rules are for multi player games, but that article from the other week as well as the rules themselves are aimed to change that. Im all for it. It opens all new options and gives players an incentive to try new armies and tactics.

Reminder to OP - VC undead need someome with the 'vampire' rule nearby in order to march. So if you want to march you will need a vampire hero/lord, varghulf, black coach, or blood knights as well. Think of them as a hired gun.

decker_cky
22-09-2010, 01:04
LevDaddy, the VC army still needs 25% core and is limited to 25% for the lord choice, which could make it tough to compose an army replacing skeletons with Gors. Supposing you boost the vampire lord to 350 pts (pretty conservative considering how expensive vamp lords can get), then you need 350 pts of core minimum, and 700 pts of other stuff in the army (min 3 non-char units), and the beasts follow the same restrictions on their portion.

Biff Gunhed
22-09-2010, 04:47
Yep, was going to say the same thing, decker_cky.

As far as I understand, an allied force needs to be a complete and legal force by itself. You can't just add whatever units you want from whatever army you want. You still need at least 1 Lord or Hero in the allied force, and at least three other allied units, and it must abide by the normal percentage restrictions on its own.

However, looking at the article that sparked this debate, I'm not sure they've adhered to these restrictions...

decker_cky
22-09-2010, 05:55
By the way, was flipping through the OK book and noticed a fun idea for an allies army: Ogre Kingdoms with VC allies in the army of Braugh Slavelord. Not likely to be too powerful of a list by any means, but cool and fluffy (use either a counts as conversion or the limited staff model if you're lucky enough).

LevDaddy
22-09-2010, 07:13
@Decker & Biff, I disagree. Although it is not crystal clear, nothing is said about applying the composition rules to each race in your allied army, so why would you? Reread the GW article and the BRB rules, it is implied (in the article, in particular) that you are creating a single army, not combining separate armies. There are consequences of course, depending on the strength of the alliance.

As I see it, if you're making an allied army you use the army compensation rules as you would in any list, and apply them to your whole army - 25% max combined Lords (either VC or BM, or both) and Heroes, 25% minimum core total, 1 BSB total, etc. Again, it doesn't say to do otherwise anywhere in the allies section and, as Biff mentioned, they didn't do so in the GW article, which seemingly is an extended example of the BRB allied rules.

So my core for a VC/BM 2500 point army could be:

40x Gor Herd, XHW, FC (345)
30x Crypt Gouls, champ (216)
Tuskgor Chariot (80)
10 x Dire Wolves (80)

Certainly I would include VC & BM characters, as well, and not just add units willy nilly (as they seem to do in the article), but I don't think you need to apply the percentages to each race's units, and if that system didn't exist pre-8th, I don't think we'd be discussing it now. Since this case is a Trusted Alliance (pg 137) I would not be able to apply the 'Hold Your Ground' rule across the races and I'd have to claim how many of my power pool dice will be able to be used by each races' casters before casting a spell, otherwise everything is considered a friendly unit in my army under the command of the general of my choice (hired gunsesque), as the rules state.

Other rules will limit some things, of course. In this case I can't IoN or Van Hels Gors (not undead), BM characters won't be able to join my undead units (non-unbreakable chars cannot join unbreakable units, other way around is ok), items like the Skull of Rarkos won't work on Necros, etc.

Anyone else have a point of view on this?

reddevil18
22-09-2010, 09:52
Im sorry i havnt read the article only what is in the mini-rulebook
Can i have a link to it please?

LevDaddy
22-09-2010, 15:57
It's from What's New Today from early Sept.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=12600003a

LevDaddy
25-09-2010, 18:27
I'm bringing this back up because I'd love to hear some other points of view on the composition rules for allied armies and the GW article on the subject.

Am I just way off base in my previous posts or what?

Smithpod68
25-09-2010, 18:52
Interesting,the article doesn't really give any hard and fast rules,but implies you just add whatever to whatever. I guess it would be up to you and your opponent. My group has done this having the allies count towards your rare allotment. I've also used the BRB rules and merged two 1000pt armies (WE and OK) to create a "legal" 2000pt army based on each army adhering to the % rules. I'm all for the allies,reminds me of the early days when you could do such a thing. I remember specifically painting Ellryian Reavers to join my wood elves cause their background at the time seemed to make sense that they might help the WE's stave off an attack.

LevDaddy
25-09-2010, 19:40
Thanks for the response Smithpod, a very diplomatic answer and methodologies which exemplify the 'spirit of the game'. How did you deply your two armies, completely seperate or did each army take one side of the battlefield? Did you mix in characters with units from other armies, if so, how did that go?

Anyone else have an opinion on allied army compositions?

ThrowN
25-09-2010, 22:27
I think GW intended the allies rules to merge 2 or more legal armies to reach the overall gamesize. At least thats how I understand and therefore plan to play it (some Skaven for my Nightgobbos mainly fighting dwarfs...).

I think brining back allies is a great idea and I can't really see too much benefit, if both armies follow their own %, even if points aren't divided equally between the factions (for example 1500+500 or 2000+1000). Lots of thematic/painting/modelling/gaming options that add to a more diverse hobby!

(And its a great excuse to get some of the IoB-Minis ;) )

Smithpod68
26-09-2010, 02:12
I have not played the list yet. I was not planning on mixing units. I was thinking more of how I would use them to support one another. I was using the rules from the BRB treating the OK as "neutral" allies to the WE's. My goal is to try a force with an OK spellcaster and a WE Spellcaster. I'm hoping to try my first list out the 16th of Oct.

Biff Gunhed
27-09-2010, 00:38
While I agree the rules in the rulebook don't specifically say that each allied army needs to be a legal army in and of itself, and that the Games Workshop article on allies seems to suggest allies don't need to be a legal army, it just seems too good to be true.

So I'm going to continue to believe that each allied army needs to be a legal army by itself.