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nonrelatedarticle
08-09-2010, 16:33
I'm sorry if this has already been posted but I didn't see anything on it .
Anyway , as the title suggests I just want to know how ork technology works . I think I read somewhere , may have been here , that it works because the orks believe it works Any help would be appreciated .

Damien 1427
08-09-2010, 16:46
One tech-priest believed it ran on belief, because he couldn't see how they could work otherwise. Because they didn't have machine-spirits, and went on principles wildly different to the AdMech. The fact that Armageddon Ork Hunters regularly used captured equipment for long periods of time, and that humans (Such as Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium) have used their vehicles far away from orks themselves, seems to fly in the face of that one tech-priest's conclusions.

Ork tech works for orks. They don't mind that guns misfire or are far too heavy for a human being to pick up. They don't mind they don't have failsafes and operator protection.

Ork tech works the same as everything else. It's just incredibly crude and prone to malfunction. But it doesn't work on the maaagical power of belief.

nonrelatedarticle
08-09-2010, 16:50
Thanks I was just thinking about it today for some reason .

kng229
08-09-2010, 17:44
I'm sorry if this has already been posted but I didn't see anything on it .
Anyway , as the title suggests I just want to know how ork technology works . I think I read somewhere , may have been here , that it works because the orks believe it works Any help would be appreciated .

I heard the same information secondhand, that ships were discovered without engines, etc. and nothing else could explain how they flew.

Hunger
08-09-2010, 18:06
The most famous one is that an Ork can pick up a stick, hold it like a gun, and that the power of belief will make it actually fire bullets. I'm not sure if this was ever an official line put out by GW, but its a gross extrapolation of the notion that Ork meks do not have much in the way of scientific reasoning or technological expertise, and yet thet just 'make' stuff work.

Rather, they build stuff by sticking bits of scrap together with an instinctual understanding of how they fit together, like a child putting together lego bricks. However, Orks manage to create incredibly complex things like kustom force fields, functioning spaceships and even plasma weaponry without really understanding how - the equivalent of the child accidentally building a combustion engine with the lego.

This instinctive technological aptitude is imprinted into the Ork race (perhaps deliberately by the Old Ones?) - no Ork worth his teef would spend time studying workshop manuals and learning how to build stuff. Its in their blood, so to speak.

However, somewhere along the line somebody somewhere misunderstood this concept, and took it far too literally, starting the myth that Orks simply need to believe that something is a technological artefact and it will become one. However, this assertion does not hold any water with me, since 1) I hate magical 'handwavium' explanations for why things happen in sci fi, and 2) if it really were true, the ork race would be totally screwed since to my understanding, Orks view everything as a weapon.

Lord Damocles
08-09-2010, 18:12
The very fact that Ork weapons have ammunition disproves the 'clap your hands if you belive' theories on Ork technology.

If an Ork could 'belive' a stick into a death ray, they wouldn't need shootas.


Edit:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177559&highlight=anzion
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161971&highlight=anzion
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3787248&highlight=anzion#post3787248
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4915134&highlight=anzion#post4915134

Angelust
08-09-2010, 18:16
So maybe if there actually is a psychic aspect to their technology it's more in the way they instinctively know how to put things together than the actual operation of the weapon itself?

Hunger
08-09-2010, 18:16
The very fact that Ork weapons have ammunition disproves the 'clap your hands if you belive' theories on Ork technology.

If an Ork could 'belive' a stick into a death ray, they wouldn't need shootas.

...or trukks, or gargants, or starships, or any other technology at all. Why not just use that bit of corrugated iron and that hosepipe for everything?




So maybe if there actually is a psychic aspect to their technology it's more in the way they instinctively know how to put things together than the actual operation of the weapon itself?

Yeah, thats how I see it. I think the writer of the Anzion field theory (the RL one, not the Mechanicus scientist) misunderstood the concept of what was already an established principle relating to the fact that Orks technology appears, to the human eye, to be a load of junk hammered together, and that meks just instictively know how to create quite advanced things. The writer took it to mean that the mek will nail some bits of scrap metal together in a random fashion and call it a shoota. The boy he sells it to will then believe its a gun and therefore it will function like one.

I say the mek will scratch his head for a minute before sticking this to that, then that plate looks like it will fit here, and that hose can go here, bullets can go in here, bolt this rod on for a handle and presto! One shoota. The next one he makes will look completely different, the ammo feed will be on the other side, the trigger will actually be a large button on top, the firing mechanism will use that bottle of compressed gas rather than an explosive charge etc... He won't plan it, but will enthusiastically set about sticking it all together until it looks finished - and when its finished it will work just as well (maybe better) than the other one.

An average human picking up one of these shootas will be amazed that the thing actually works - its appearance betrays the haphazard way in which it was built, and its crude 'worky bits' look like they might jam up after any shot - which they might. If the human could figure out where the trigger was he would certainly be able to fire it, but common sense tells him that this thing is an accident waiting to happen.

No such issue for the lucky Ork who acquires it though - he will cheerfully use in battle, both as a ranged weapon and a club, until the mechanism inevitably jams and a round explodes in the chamber, taking out his eye.

On a related note, mention is made of red paint jobs and blue war paint. In stunning display of divination I will now predict Wing Commander's statement that 'red wunz go faster', and its true that they do have an in-game effect, however this can be attributed to the fact that the boy driving the car is a more skillful driver than the other drivers in the warband, who must drive slower to lessen the threat crashing, or that the red trukk is, in fact, the mek's favourite, and he has made some modifications that make it better, or many other reasons too.

The blue war paint is a similar thing - its a token to show that the Ork is either a more skilful warrior, or is luckier, has a 'sixth sense' or any number of other intangible things that might make him a better survivor than his buddies. All the BWP or RPJ upgrades do is give us an in-game visual reference to show the upgrade for the purposes of WYSIWYG in the same way we paint the sergeant's sword blue to show its a power weapon.

Wing Commander
08-09-2010, 18:20
Erm.. Red wunz actually do go faster...

Lord Damocles
08-09-2010, 18:45
Erm.. Red wunz actually do go faster...
Is that because the Orks belive that the red trukk will go faster than the blue trukk, and therefore it does...
OR
The Mek gives the red trukk more attention than the blue trukk beacuse its red - and it therefore runs better...
OR
The Mek paints the trukk red because its got the biggest engine/goes fastest...
etc.?

baphomael
08-09-2010, 23:56
I like to think that there is some aspect of belief and the latent psychic manifestations of the WAAAGH! at work. Obviously, not as wild as Magos Anzion's (was it?) theories, but perhaps on some small level allows a weapon to function better. In this way, it'd explain why in the FFG 40k RPG books Ork weapons work better in the hands of Orks.

madd0ct0r
09-09-2010, 07:29
most ork stuff looks fairly well constructed to me.


no. honestly.

If you're not thinking about mass production or aesthetics, and a lot of the time are working with semi processed scrap, then any human would get the same results.

Not elegant or efficient, and unlikely to last a tenth of the time an STC design does, but effective and great fun.

hoomie design: http://bowchow.org/awesome.jpg

Abaraxas
09-09-2010, 11:13
The Brainboyz engineered the Oddboyz (Mekaniaks,Runtherdz,Painboyz,Weirdboyz) and indeed all Orks with an instinctive knowledge of whatever their purpose/s is/are.

The Mekaniak doesnt know how it works either...well he does but its not something that he would ponder-he just creates/fixes things instinctually.

How does Ork technology work?

Not very well, half the time ;)

MagosHereticus
09-09-2010, 11:30
One tech-priest believed it ran on belief, because he couldn't see how they could work otherwise. Because they didn't have machine-spirits, and went on principles wildly different to the AdMech. The fact that Armageddon Ork Hunters regularly used captured equipment for long periods of time, and that humans (Such as Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium) have used their vehicles far away from orks themselves, seems to fly in the face of that one tech-priest's conclusions.

Ork tech works for orks. They don't mind that guns misfire or are far too heavy for a human being to pick up. They don't mind they don't have failsafes and operator protection.

Ork tech works the same as everything else. It's just incredibly crude and prone to malfunction. But it doesn't work on the maaagical power of belief.

maybe the waaaaaaagh energy is imprinted into the object, sort of like a daemon weapon, allowing it to bend the laws of physics just enough to function even when not in the possession of an ork

Polaria
09-09-2010, 12:15
Well, ork psyker weirdboyz gather energy from the latent psionic power of nearby orks and their power is bigger the more boyz there are near them and the more exited the boyz are. Considering what psykers of other races are capable of doing it isn't unconceivable to imagine ork psykers channeling the latent power of hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of orks could not make a huge ship jump into warp without warp engines or make a gargantuan walker walk without power source... I just can't imagine that ALL ork tech wouldn't work without the psykers, maybe only the most outrageous constructs wouldn't.

Sir_Turalyon
09-09-2010, 13:09
Erm.. Red wunz actually do go faster...

Yes, because every customization to make the vehicle go faster includes red paint job. It may have overcharged engine, armour plates of lighter alloy, holes drilled through the chassis or other customosations, but red paint job is one conststant element of making a wagon go fasta.



maybe the waaaaaaagh energy is imprinted into the object, sort of like a daemon weapon, allowing it to bend the laws of physics just enough to function even when not in the possession of an ork


No, ork weapons just fall apart if not taken to mekboy every few weeks. The more complicated guns examined by Adeptus Mechanicus have ceased to work eighter on battlefield or during transport, then they egzamined bunch of guns with missing bits, eighter left on battlefield or lying lose and not fiting anywhere, and declared the weapon was unable to work in first place.



I think I read somewhere , may have been here , that it works because the orks believe it works Any help would be appreciated .

It's just a fan theory with little backing in background (namely two examples rebuffed above). It came to life in 3rd edition, period when GW published as much Ork fluff as Dark Eldar one and fans wild guessing was commonplace.

DantesInferno
09-09-2010, 13:16
One tech-priest believed it ran on belief, because he couldn't see how they could work otherwise. Because they didn't have machine-spirits, and went on principles wildly different to the AdMech. The fact that Armageddon Ork Hunters regularly used captured equipment for long periods of time, and that humans (Such as Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium) have used their vehicles far away from orks themselves, seems to fly in the face of that one tech-priest's conclusions.


I heard the same information secondhand, that ships were discovered without engines, etc. and nothing else could explain how they flew.


The most famous one is that an Ork can pick up a stick, hold it like a gun, and that the power of belief will make it actually fire bullets. I'm not sure if this was ever an official line put out by GW, but its a gross extrapolation of the notion that Ork meks do not have much in the way of scientific reasoning or technological expertise, and yet thet just 'make' stuff work.


The very fact that Ork weapons have ammunition disproves the 'clap your hands if you belive' theories on Ork technology.

If an Ork could 'belive' a stick into a death ray, they wouldn't need shootas.

Anzion's theory, as presented in the background, states roughly that the Orks utilise some measure of latent, unconscious psychic power in the operation of some of their technology. The idea that Ork technology works solely because Orks think it do seems to be a fairly common fan mis-interpretation. As a result, this straw-man argument tends to be the one that gets attacked.

However, the idea that the Orks might use some latent psychic power in the operation of their technology is harder to disprove. For instance, the fact that the Ork Hunters can use Orky wargear does not demonstrate that the theory is necessarily incorrect. What would be useful would be to know how the rates of weaponry malfunction compare among the Ork Hunters to the Orks themselves (taking into account the Orks' better familiarity with their own weapons, of course).

It's also important to remember that the Anzion theory is perfectly consistent with existing information about the Orks' subconscious abilities which are sourced in their genetic engineering. After all, the Orks can be both genetically hard-wired to make them able to construct ramshackle yet advanced technology, and genetically hard-wired to have powerful latent psychic abilities to make them better able to operate ramshackle yet advanced technology.

Furthermore, it is consistent with other information that we do have. The Necron Codex (in combination with 'Deus Ex Mechanicus') reveals that the Orks were created by the Old Ones during the War in Heaven, when the Old Ones created other races that were strongly psychic (eg Eldar), and some races which had innate gifts for technology (eg Jokaero). The fact that the Orks were (almost certainly) created by the Old Ones during the War in Heaven gives a certain amount of credence to Anzion's theory, given the amount of fiddling the Old Ones were doing at the time in making psychic warrior races. Of course Anzion's theory isn't proved, confirmed, or anything like that. But it's at least plausible.

Finally, the theory provides an added reason why Orks might be a galactic threat while obviously not having the same degree of conscious logistical organisation - they were genetically engineered to have subconscious advantages (latent psychic abilities and technical abilities) which alleviate this potential problem.

Sir_Turalyon
09-09-2010, 13:53
Finally, the theory provides an added reason why Orks might be a galactic threat while obviously not having the same degree of conscious logistical organisation - they were genetically engineered to have subconscious advantages (latent psychic abilities and technical abilities) which alleviate this potential problem.


Yes they do. They share a communal subconciousness called Waagh! which gives them sense of unity and occasionaly makes them stop fight each other and cooperate towards a common goal.

Otterpot
09-09-2010, 18:45
I've been troubled with this topic before. I've always thought the orks latent ability granted them small power but not ridiculous power. I could believe that if an ork fires his weapon and it jams, he could bang on it or hit it and unjam it, because to an ork "Dat's shood work." and his pyschic power unjams it. A human could probably not pull this off, even a pyschic one, since the technology is far too alien in design.

As for Red wunz go fasta; I like to believe that the orks' pyschic power does make it faster. Who says their customisations have to be more powerful engines or holes drilled in the sides. If a trukk with a dozer blade mounted on the front and a crane on the back, hauling a load of bricks was painted red, it would go faster.(for orks at least)

The stick turning into a gun just sounds stupid. If orks had that kind of power nothing would last. That's like saying that if enough orks believed a certain battle should have been won they could back in time and change the outcome.

madd0ct0r
09-09-2010, 19:59
that last does sound suspiciously orkish...

One other fan hypothesis I ike (cos it's mine), is that Ork Meks utilise their innate psyker talents in the same way an Eldar Bonesinger conjures warpbone.

This is a bit less impressive for Orks, but means that metals can be atomically nudged into harder variants, welds notwithstanding.
Dodgy electronic components may tune themselves with enough 'figgeren'; chemical compounds gather in more explosive configurations and so on.

For the Ork Mek/Brewer it might be described as getting the taste or texture right.

baphomael
11-09-2010, 00:46
Again, I'll note that in the RPG material, Ork weapons work better in the hands of Orks, lending credence to some kind of psychic goings-on.




hoomie design: http://bowchow.org/awesome.jpg

I want one.

Deadly-Sin
11-09-2010, 08:26
da mekboys slap some metal toogetter and bolt sum weeels on it. den dey put dat steeering weel on da front and give da boys in da back some dakka. when dats all dun, dey paint it up nice and red, dat makes it go fasta.

Sir_Turalyon
11-09-2010, 08:50
Again, I'll note that in the RPG material, Ork weapons work better in the hands of Orks, lending credence to some kind of psychic goings-on.


Yes, like Ork finding recoil extatic rather than painful, enjoying noice and smoke rather than geting headache, having know-how from Mek who told them how the gun is supposed to be used and, most importantly, having grips and gun mass/size designed for Ork hands rather than human . It is perfectly explanable without invoking psychic powers.

Hellebore
11-09-2010, 09:32
And working BETTER is not the same as 'only working in ork hands', showing that the orks DO indeed know how to build things properly and it's not just a stick that fires bullets.

That oversimplification really destroys a lot of the imagery of the orks, making them into drooling ****** who just believe stuff into working rather than intelligent sapient creatures that also have genetic knowledge on how to build things.

I prefer my orks with a little more intelligence.

Hellebore

MagosHereticus
11-09-2010, 10:08
And working BETTER is not the same as 'only working in ork hands', showing that the orks DO indeed know how to build things properly and it's not just a stick that fires bullets.

That oversimplification really destroys a lot of the imagery of the orks, making them into drooling ****** who just believe stuff into working rather than intelligent sapient creatures that also have genetic knowledge on how to build things.

I prefer my orks with a little more intelligence.

Hellebore

you also prefer to build strawman arguments to attack, no one has ever claimed that an ork could make a stick fire bullets

Sir_Turalyon
11-09-2010, 10:51
"Orks firing bulets from the stick" interpretation is persistent on some boards, althrough fortunately I've never seen it on Warseer ...yet. Nice job, Hellbore :eek: .

Hellebore
11-09-2010, 11:27
you also prefer to build strawman arguments to attack, no one has ever claimed that an ork could make a stick fire bullets


"Orks firing bulets from the stick" interpretation is persistent on some boards, althrough fortunately I've never seen it on Warseer ...yet. Nice job, Hellbore :eek: .

:eyebrows:

I was directly quoting the concept posted by Hunger on the first page of this thread:


The most famous one is that an Ork can pick up a stick, hold it like a gun, and that the power of belief will make it actually fire bullets. I'm not sure if this was ever an official line put out by GW, but its a gross extrapolation of the notion that Ork meks do not have much in the way of scientific reasoning or technological expertise, and yet thet just 'make' stuff work.

I wasn't claiming that baphomael said that, in fact what I was saying was supporting his point - the RPG clearly shows that some effect occurs (which I've always supported) but that it's not the 'clap your hands if you believe' ad absurdum that many refer to, which devolves into 'shooting bullets out of sticks' because there are no objective restrictions on what an ork 'believing' can actually do if you use that claim. If it was literal ork belief, then if they could believe/imagine it, it would work.

The evidence does not support ork belief making their stuff work and 'shooting bullets out of sticks' is PRECISELY what 'ork belief = technology' would produce, as it relies on an ork's belief and not the reality of the object. Ork belief being the basis for their technology being the oversimplification I was referring to, represnted by the fact that there is no objective limit on ork belief.

(And just to ensure no one claims I'm constructing strawmen around Hunger's statement, no I'm not saying Hunger believes this EITHER. He stated it, I referred back to it. If that's so hard to understand well, I can't help you there.)

Hellebore

Damien 1427
11-09-2010, 11:56
you also prefer to build strawman arguments to attack, no one has ever claimed that an ork could make a stick fire bullets

It's depressingly common on TvTropes, and I've long since given up trying to move them away from that line of thinking.

MagosHereticus
11-09-2010, 12:31
:eyebrows:

I was directly quoting the concept posted by Hunger on the first page of this thread:



I wasn't claiming that baphomael said that, in fact what I was saying was supporting his point - the RPG clearly shows that some effect occurs (which I've always supported) but that it's not the 'clap your hands if you believe' ad absurdum that many refer to, which devolves into 'shooting bullets out of sticks' because there are no objective restrictions on what an ork 'believing' can actually do if you use that claim. If it was literal ork belief, then if they could believe/imagine it, it would work.

The evidence does not support ork belief making their stuff work and 'shooting bullets out of sticks' is PRECISELY what 'ork belief = technology' would produce, as it relies on an ork's belief and not the reality of the object. Ork belief being the basis for their technology being the oversimplification I was referring to, represnted by the fact that there is no objective limit on ork belief.

(And just to ensure no one claims I'm constructing strawmen around Hunger's statement, no I'm not saying Hunger believes this EITHER. He stated it, I referred back to it. If that's so hard to understand well, I can't help you there.)

Hellebore

so unless an ork can make a stick shoot bullets, there is no possibility at all that ork waaaaaaghhh energy could be doing something interesting to ork tools and devices, wow you sure showed us that you dont build strawmen (and no evidence? when did codexes cease to be legitimate sources of information?)

the psychic energy is not postulated as the source of their technical prowess, just a means to soften the laws of physics in such a way that they can function as intended

Idaan
11-09-2010, 12:43
so unless an ork can make a stick shoot bullets, there is no possibility at all that ork waaaaaaghhh energy could be doing something interesting to ork tools and devices, wow you sure showed us that you dont build strawmen (and no evidence? when did codexes cease to be legitimate sources of information?)

the psychic energy is not postulated as the source of their technical prowess, just a means to soften the laws of physics in such a way that they can function as intended
Underlined that for you.

I wasn't claiming that baphomael said that, in fact what I was saying was supporting his point - the RPG clearly shows that some effect occurs (which I've always supported) but that it's not the 'clap your hands if you believe' ad absurdum that many refer to, which devolves into 'shooting bullets out of sticks' because there are no objective restrictions on what an ork 'believing' can actually do if you use that claim. If it was literal ork belief, then if they could believe/imagine it, it would work.

The evidence does not support ork belief making their stuff work and 'shooting bullets out of sticks' is PRECISELY what 'ork belief = technology' would produce, as it relies on an ork's belief and not the reality of the object. Ork belief being the basis for their technology being the oversimplification I was referring to, represnted by the fact that there is no objective limit on ork belief.
And codexes aren't always reliable sources of information, certainly not when the Anzion's theory is written in character (not by omniscient 3rd person narrator) by a member of organisation that proved scientifically that Gauss weapons can't work, that human technology is always superior to xenos, and that AI is powered by fairy dust

baphomael
11-09-2010, 13:09
Underlined that for you.

And codexes aren't always reliable sources of information, certainly not when the Anzion's theory is written in character (not by omniscient 3rd person narrator) by a member of organisation that proved scientifically that Gauss weapons can't work, that human technology is always superior to xenos, and that AI is powered by fairy dust

No, they didnt. They were scratching their heads because the principles behind Gauss weapons shouldnt be theoretically possible - yet Necrons are clearly running around with them.

Hellebore
11-09-2010, 13:17
so unless an ork can make a stick shoot bullets, there is no possibility at all that ork waaaaaaghhh energy could be doing something interesting to ork tools and devices, wow you sure showed us that you dont build strawmen (and no evidence? when did codexes cease to be legitimate sources of information?)

the psychic energy is not postulated as the source of their technical prowess, just a means to soften the laws of physics in such a way that they can function as intended

:rolleyes: Perhaps if you read posts a little before replying you wouldn't construct your own strawmen to shoot down?

I am in full agreement that latent ork psychic power has some effect on their technology. I have said so in every thread about this topic:

Here is one from ~9 months ago
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4192861&postcount=28
In fact, you yourself posted in that thread, seven posts down from me:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4192955&postcount=35

I see it as metaphysical grease that lubricates the wheels, rather than literal 'belief' powering equipment. I think the evidence speaks for itself.

EDIT:

No, they didnt. They were scratching their heads because the principles behind Gauss weapons shouldnt be theoretically possible - yet Necrons are clearly running around with them.

The exact words used were:



The design of a gauss weapon with all its parameters kept dynamic to acheive maximum effiency is a mathematical impossibility, as proved by Magos Barrous during the Calculometry Schism.


So, the mechanicus consider it mathematically impossible. It's obviously not impossible, mathematically or otherwise, but the math used by the mechanicus obviously cannot answer it.

I think Idaan's point was more that it shows that the point of view of the mechanicus is not omiscient and thus that Anzion's theory is not 'fact', anymore than it is fact that guass weapons are impossible mathematically (which they can't be if they actually exist).

Hellebore

DantesInferno
11-09-2010, 13:33
I am in full agreement that latent ork psychic power has some effect on their technology.

Now that little misunderstanding has been cleared up, would someone like to argue the opposing position? Seems like most of the participants in the thread actually agree with each other.


And codexes aren't always reliable sources of information, certainly not when the Anzion's theory is written in character (not by omniscient 3rd person narrator) by a member of organisation that proved scientifically that Gauss weapons can't work, that human technology is always superior to xenos, and that AI is powered by fairy dust

While it's true that Anzion's theory is clearly fallible and should not be taken as gospel, I pointed out in my previous post a few independent corroborating factors. In particular, it fits in fairly neatly with what we know about how the Orks were designed during the War in Heaven.

Sir_Turalyon
11-09-2010, 20:19
Now that little misunderstanding has been cleared up, would someone like to argue the opposing position?

Always can :). As previously noticed, there is nothing in background supporting Anzions theory. While it's a possibility, there are reasons why I find it unplausible.

First, as said already, there are perfect explanation why Ork weapons work better in hands of the Orks, why they are hard to reverse-engineer or why captured weapons fall apart so quickly that what gets reverse engineered cannot possibly work - because half the parts is already missing, and lose ones don't seem to fit anywhere. Last but not least, technology that know-how of Ork mekboyz are stated to have encoded in their DNA is said (Codex:Orks, 2nd ed) to equal and surpass imperial and, in case of forcefields and teleportation, even Eldar knowledge. The implementation may be crude, but science behind it is often well ahead of Adeptus Mechanicus. If a mekboy fancies a gun that teleports bolts or uses a elements of forcefield theory somewhere, examining techpriest has no chance of understanding how it works. If it's alrady broken (probably is), techpriest will say the weapon probably never worked as insides make no sense; he has as much a chance of understanding it as pre-WW1 engineer has examining a steam locomotive with computer-monitored steam pressure, with wireless user interface made from iPhone pieces.

There simply is no need for such theory; it does not explain anything that can't be explained without it. It's possible and nice, but unneccesary and overcomplicated like theory of angels masquerading their works as laws of physics.

Second and more important, the psychic aspect of the Orks has been already described in background (namely RT Ork sourcebooks). Ork psychic potential forms a collective psyche; it brings them sense of community with each other and their gods that makes them self-confident, free of despair and doubt, makes them easily share each others enthusiasm and go to war together, makes them enthusiasticaly join the victors when defeated by other Orks rather than hold grudge, finaly makes their enthusiasm wake thier gods into conciousness in the warp once enough Orks unite with common goal. This is nothink to sniff at - Ork souls have been engineered to interact with each other, to form a community able to not survive but thrive in even worst conditions, gaining strength from presence of other Orks alone. Even individuals are almost immune to temptations and influence of Chaos, to the level when accidentaly posessed Ork does not lose control of his body to deamon. Finaly, shared subconciousness provides source of energy for psykers idependent from deamonic influence and safe haven for Ork souls to await reincarnation. Ork psychic potential makes them fearless once there is more than ten of them reassuring each other.


To finish, we don't need Anzions theory to explain the Ork background. Does it make the background better? Seems like the Old Ones did very much job on Ork psychic ability already, to make tham a race capable of surviving War in the Heaven and aftermatch. There is enough abilities - already described in background - for adding a made up ability to make mashines work to look unneccesary. Ork souls are engineered to perform major miracles in the Warp all the time already, minor physical miracles sound more like disctractions.

Lupe
12-09-2010, 05:01
In a sense, Ork tech does work on magic.

A loota finds a heavy bolter, but it's been damaged. Its firing pin and several other precision mechanisms are missing. Here's where the magic might come in.

The loota might load it with ammo and it will fire and it might actually do that for long enough to last before a visit to the mek, to tune it up properly.

The mek might never have worked on a heavy bolter, but when it's stripped down to pieces, he'll instinctively know how to put it back together, and what else to add in...

DantesInferno
12-09-2010, 06:36
Always can :). As previously noticed, there is nothing in background supporting Anzions theory. While it's a possibility, there are reasons why I find it unplausible.

First, as said already, there are perfect explanation why Ork weapons work better in hands of the Orks, why they are hard to reverse-engineer or why captured weapons fall apart so quickly that what gets reverse engineered cannot possibly work - because half the parts is already missing, and lose ones don't seem to fit anywhere. Last but not least, technology that know-how of Ork mekboyz are stated to have encoded in their DNA is said (Codex:Orks, 2nd ed) to equal and surpass imperial and, in case of forcefields and teleportation, even Eldar knowledge. The implementation may be crude, but science behind it is often well ahead of Adeptus Mechanicus. If a mekboy fancies a gun that teleports bolts or uses a elements of forcefield theory somewhere, examining techpriest has no chance of understanding how it works. If it's alrady broken (probably is), techpriest will say the weapon probably never worked as insides make no sense; he has as much a chance of understanding it as pre-WW1 engineer has examining a steam locomotive with computer-monitored steam pressure, with wireless user interface made from iPhone pieces.

There simply is no need for such theory; it does not explain anything that can't be explained without it. It's possible and nice, but unneccesary and overcomplicated like theory of angels masquerading their works as laws of physics.

While I agree that specific Orks' genetic abilities go some of the way to explaining the efficiency of their technology, I don't think it makes the added idea of Ork latent psychic power assisting in the operation of said technology unnecessary or redundant. There is a major issue here to be explained - how Orks can be a galactic threat despite having almost no conscious technological knowledge or logistical support. I don't think the presence of two mutually supporting reasons is over-the-top, given the magnitude of the phenomenon to be explained.


Second and more important, the psychic aspect of the Orks has been already described in background (namely RT Ork sourcebooks). Ork psychic potential forms a collective psyche; it brings them sense of community with each other and their gods that makes them self-confident, free of despair and doubt, makes them easily share each others enthusiasm and go to war together, makes them enthusiasticaly join the victors when defeated by other Orks rather than hold grudge, finaly makes their enthusiasm wake thier gods into conciousness in the warp once enough Orks unite with common goal. This is nothink to sniff at - Ork souls have been engineered to interact with each other, to form a community able to not survive but thrive in even worst conditions, gaining strength from presence of other Orks alone. Even individuals are almost immune to temptations and influence of Chaos, to the level when accidentaly posessed Ork does not lose control of his body to deamon. Finaly, shared subconciousness provides source of energy for psykers idependent from deamonic influence and safe haven for Ork souls to await reincarnation. Ork psychic potential makes them fearless once there is more than ten of them reassuring each other.

The (Kr)ork were designed by the Old Ones for essentially two purposes:
1) To defend the last strongholds of the Old Ones from the advancing C'tan and their Necron servants; and
2) To be better adapted to survive against the predatorial warp entities which had begun to prey on the Old Ones' other client races.

The elements of Ork latent psychic power you've described work well to explain 2). However, they're of almost no use against the Necrons and C'tan.

We know that the Old Ones' main weapons against the Necrons and C'tan were the psychic abilities of the races they created. This was their means of countering the massive technological advantage of the Necrons and C'tan. To this end they created the Eldar, among other races.

It simply makes sense to me that the Old Ones, in designing the Orks, would have attempted to make the most of the ability to tap into the Warp - the one advantage their races had over the Necrons and C'tan. Even if warp usage is not the Orks' primary weapon (as it may have been for the primitive Eldar), it makes sense that the Old Ones would build it in as a latent advantage in as many ways as they could.


To finish, we don't need Anzions theory to explain the Ork background. Does it make the background better? Seems like the Old Ones did very much job on Ork psychic ability already, to make tham a race capable of surviving War in the Heaven and aftermatch. There is enough abilities - already described in background - for adding a made up ability to make mashines work to look unneccesary. Ork souls are engineered to perform major miracles in the Warp all the time already, minor physical miracles sound more like disctractions.

While I agree that there are other abilities in the background which might go some way to describing the actions of which the Orks are capable, I don't think an extra ability should in any way subtract from the existing ones.

If you're going to create a client race which is genetically hard-wired to be able to subconsciously construct ramshackle yet advanced technology, it makes sense to make them genetically hard-wired to have latent psychic abilities to be better able to operate said ramshackle yet advanced technology.

I don't see any harm in accepting a theory which emphasises how incredibly well-designed the Orks were for their purpose.

Polaria
12-09-2010, 08:26
I'm pretty sure ork technology has the "basic parts" all there, just like human technology. Shoota has receiver, a firing mechanism and a barrel. Shoota-caliber rounds have primer, gunpowder and actual bullets. Ork pulls a trigger, firing mechanism activates the primer, primer ignites the gunpowder, gunpowder makes the bullet fly out of the barrel, receiver takes in recoil and reloads another round. No stick firing bullets there and its jams like any other gun (meaning if its rugged build like AK-47, very rarely).

When we go to things like spaceships and walkers and whatnot we delve into the realm of Waagh! -psychics. I believe orks simply can't make those devices work as well as they do without the psychics...

Now, I ask you, can Eldar make their wraithbone constructs like their ships and wraithguards and whatnot work without psychics? No, they can't.

Do Eldar psychics make sticks shoot bullets? No, they don't need to because their psychics can shoot large blasts of warp energy without even a stick...

MagosHereticus
12-09-2010, 13:20
No, they didnt. They were scratching their heads because the principles behind Gauss weapons shouldnt be theoretically possible - yet Necrons are clearly running around with them.

i saw that and thought of it as an in joke referring the notorious folk law which suggests that bumbles shouldnt be able to fly according to the laws of physics and yet they do

Sir_Turalyon
12-09-2010, 13:34
The elements of Ork latent psychic power you've described work well to explain 2). However, they're of almost no use against the Necrons and C'tan.

We know that the Old Ones' main weapons against the Necrons and C'tan were the psychic abilities of the races they created. This was their means of countering the massive technological advantage of the Necrons and C'tan. To this end they created the Eldar, among other races.


And we know how much good it did them. The (Kr)ork s were created at last stage of war, along with Jokaero, if I remember correctly as "desperate" or "radical" experiments. Judging by Jokaero they were creaded with, apparently various client species with bulit in technological knowledge and capable of fighting with technology were the last thing Old Ones tried in galaxy where affecting physical with psychic powers became dangerous for users.

Hellebore
12-09-2010, 15:37
According to the necron codex they were released at the same time as the Jokaero to counter the denizens of the warp (including enslavers). They were probably originally designed to defend against the necrons, but they actually saw use as anti enslaver agents. Perhaps because their gestalt psychic field made them more resilient to mind control and/or because they have a hard time being scared (something enslavers/daemons rely on).

Hellebore

Col. Tartleton
12-09-2010, 15:48
Ahhh, the infamous "Patrick Star" defense: (paraphrased) Mind control? Ha. Even I can't control my mind!

Patrick is basically how intellectual I'm willing to imagine an ork ever being.

Polaria
12-09-2010, 15:51
According to Necron codex even though the Necrons have anti-psychic fields and whatnot the C'tan themselves (or at least the necrodermis) seem to be extremely vulnerable to raw warp energy... like the stuff wraithcannons fire. Maybe the ork warpheads were originally designed to act as biological wraithcannons?

Hashulaman
12-09-2010, 18:53
As for the OP, I think that because the orks beleive soemthing happens it pyskikly does it, red stuff goes faster so they pyskikly increase the speed of the vehicle. This is my opinion though, I don't know much fluff out side Chaos and Loyalist marine.

Balgora
12-09-2010, 23:05
I wasn't sure whether you meant physically or psychically in that post sorry.

I personally kinda like the idea that your typical ork is too stupid or blood crazed to clear a jam outta his weapon(unless you count hitting it against something or someone) or put the ammo in properly and so relies on psychic power to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's when it comes to making the thing work :D.

Dakkagor
15-09-2010, 11:53
Again, I'll note that in the RPG material, Ork weapons work better in the hands of Orks, lending credence to some kind of psychic goings-on.

thats my least favourite bit of the dark heresy source material.


Yes, like Ork finding recoil extatic rather than painful, enjoying noice and smoke rather than geting headache, having know-how from Mek who told them how the gun is supposed to be used and, most importantly, having grips and gun mass/size designed for Ork hands rather than human . It is perfectly explanable without invoking psychic powers.

Give this man a cookie!!


I don't like the psychic theory. For a couple of reasons.

The first reason is that the field, must, at some level, be intelligently managed. It has to choose what bits to manipulate, what components to 'grease', what pressures to fudge and what materials to reinforce. Constantly, without failure, without exception, across billions of materiel items used by a race of whom less than 10%, maybe less than 1%, have any bleeding clue how those items are meant to work without that 'psychic grease'. Even in 40k, that just seems so absurd as top be impossible. Meaning it isn't there in the first place. (ochams razor and all that jazz)

The second is if the field worked all the time, as it must (you can't switch it of, switch it on, its subconcious) then ork technology would never break. It wouldn't need mekboy maitenance once constructed because the orks would keep believing it should work, even when the mechanisim of their shoota is jammed with hair and blood from that humie skull they bashed in. And we know it breaks, falls apart, takes damage, because orks are reduced to using jammed guns as clubs, or the more wild ork weapons will occasionally take their operators with them.

The third is that it makes orks stupid. Orks aren't stupid, they are dangerous, kunning, tuff and waaagh. A mek may not know how a machine works, but he knows it doesn't need to be appropriated, prayed to or blessed, he will just fix that damn thing with some duct tape, grease and nails and it will work because he has an instinctual knowledge of how this works, just as we have an instinctive knowledge of how to breathe.

The fourth is that it doesn't add anything to the ork race, their threat to the imperium, or anything else in the 41st millenium. Its just a dangling thread created by a badly thought out piece of fiction from the old 3rd ed codex, which in my mind was more to show that the admech has no idea how things work, and are so mired in superstition and dogma that they would rather invent a ridiculous theory about psychic fields than admit that they are wrong. Anyway, Anzion was a biologist, and not a enginseer, who said anything about him being trained to understand alien technology? He's an academic postulating on things beyond his (narrow, specialised) field.

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2010, 12:21
I've always seen ork tech as just tech, nothing magical about it.
An ork cannot pick up a stick and yell bang and make it shoot bullets, not even the most proficient mekboy can do that.

However, I see it more as a latent instinctive knowledge that orks posesses to varying degree's and the mekboy gene is triggered somehow (likely due to the psychic effect of being around lots of other orks). Once triggered it unlocks that knowledge of how to make stuff work to some degree.

All orks have this in some form, but only the mekboyz get it in any useful amount.
So it's not a magical effect, it's just an unlocking of technical knowledge.
So no ork can hold a stick and fire bullets from it, but a mek-boy can go into a kitchen and build a force field generator out of the things there.

Memnos
15-09-2010, 12:25
There are several things at work here, so we should look at them all.

Reasons why Ork technology is psychic based:

1) Red ones really do go fasta.
2) Weirdboyz really do get more powerful as more Orks gather and fight. Also, as Orks gather in larger numbers, they build things like Gargants and other massive war machines.
3) Their technology is ramshackle and, to most trained eyes shouldn't work.

Reasons why Ork technology isn't psychic based:

1) It works in the hands of humans far away from other Orks.
2) Orks have had to experiment to get certain technology. Specifically: Ghazghkull's Tellyportas required experimentation and development.
3) Ork technology is broadly similar - Shootas are propellant-based slug throwers, Fighta-bommas and Fightas all have a combustible fuel shooting out the back, etc.

Is there an answer that satisfies everything from both sides? Let's examine the psychic theory:

1) Could anything else explain red ones going fasta? If technology is imprinted, could there be a subconscious marker in Meks heads that red paint must go on vehicles with souped up engines or improved aerodynamics?
2) Is this necessarily Waaagh! power increasing for the technological part, or is this an ancestral memory where more Orks means increased aggression which means bigger weapons must be built?
3) With ramshackle items, how does this apply to things that require delicate mechanisms and controls? Do plasma based weapons, which require perfectly controlled magnetic fields, have damaging flashes of plasma when the magnetic core fails due to poor design? Are vehicles prone to malfunction? Do their jet-packs have firm controls?

With the 'Against' side, can psychic abilities explain all of them?

1) Could this first one be explained akin to Daemonic Weapons, where the weapons are imbued with Waaagh! energy to keep them going?
2) Was it really technological experimentation that allowed it, or is it just as likely that they were learning to express the Waaagh! energy as teleportation? Can all of them explain that?
3) Is technology broadly similar because of a Jungian subconscious or because of an ancestral memory implanted by the Old Ones?


Ultimately, every thing for or against can be argued until the sun comes up. It could go either way.

Polaria
15-09-2010, 12:34
The first reason is that the field, must, at some level, be intelligently managed.

Does sanctified psyker pyromancer know the exact chemical reactions and physics of fire? I highly doubt it. Does he need to know them in order to burn someone? Nope.

Psychic disciplines are not something you control by knowing something at intellectual level. They are stuff of will, faith and intuition. You have to have the will to control the warp, faith that you can control it and intuition will guide you the rest of the way.



The second is if the field worked all the time, as it must (you can't switch it of, switch it on, its subconcious) then ork technology would never break.

Psychic disciplines are not 100% foolproof. Actually they can't be, since they are stuff of chaos. Eldar have huge number of stuff which are made to work purely by psychic energy. That stuff also fails time to time.




The third is that it makes orks stupid.

No, it actually doesn't. Are Eldar stupid because their wraithwalkers are powered psychically instead of mechanics? Are Librarians stupid because they use Force blades instead of chain swords?

Actually if you don't have widespread of psychics working in the background the orks would be the most awesomely intelligent beings of the whole galaxy since they are the only ones (aside Tau) that can make things work at that level of technology and power without using psychics. Eldar and humans sure can't claim the same.

What you seem to miss is that "ork psychic technomancy" doesn't need to be the whole package overriding all use of conventional mechanics and electronics. Its more like augmenting the conventional technology. Exactly like Eldar have.

Iracundus
15-09-2010, 12:42
Psychic disciplines are not 100% foolproof. Actually they can't be, since they are stuff of chaos. Eldar have huge number of stuff which are made to work purely by psychic energy. That stuff also fails time to time.


Cite an example please of this kind of erratic performance and failure for Eldar technology due to it being psychic.

Decius
15-09-2010, 13:04
No, it actually doesn't. Are Eldar stupid because their wraithwalkers are powered psychically instead of mechanics?

Yes, it actually does. It takes skill and expertise to build a warwalker, but with Anzions theory taken at face value, Ork's don't need to know anything to have their tech. It replaces technological knowledge and ingenuity with psychic fairy dust. They don't need to be smart, they just need to be there. It makes them look stupid.

DantesInferno
15-09-2010, 14:17
The third is that it makes orks stupid. Orks aren't stupid, they are dangerous, kunning, tuff and waaagh. A mek may not know how a machine works, but he knows it doesn't need to be appropriated, prayed to or blessed, he will just fix that damn thing with some duct tape, grease and nails and it will work because he has an instinctual knowledge of how this works, just as we have an instinctive knowledge of how to breathe.


Yes, it actually does. It takes skill and expertise to build a warwalker, but with Anzions theory taken at face value, Ork's don't need to know anything to have their tech. It replaces technological knowledge and ingenuity with psychic fairy dust. They don't need to be smart, they just need to be there. It makes them look stupid.

Orks have never been described as being capable of understanding how or why their technology works. Acceptance of Anzion's theory does absolutely nothing to change this. Orks have always been able to make functional high-end technology, but it has always been as a product of their subconscious abilities which are sourced in their genetic engineering. Acceptance of Anzion's theory does nothing to change this either.

I'm not sure why you two think the subconscious ability to build something that works is more impressive or demonstrates more intelligence than the subconscious ability to build something that mostly works supplemented with a subconscious psychic ability that means that your mostly-working object is more likely to work. It's the same level of technological knowledge - none. On the Anzion theory, Orks are just as stupid as they've always been.

Balgora
15-09-2010, 15:05
The first reason is that the field, must, at some level, be intelligently managed. It has to choose what bits to manipulate, what components to 'grease', what pressures to fudge and what materials to reinforce. Constantly, without failure, without exception, across billions of materiel items used by a race of whom less than 10%, maybe less than 1%, have any bleeding clue how those items are meant to work without that 'psychic grease'. Even in 40k, that just seems so absurd as top be impossible. Meaning it isn't there in the first place. (ochams razor and all that jazz)

The third is that it makes orks stupid. Orks aren't stupid, they are dangerous, kunning, tuff and waaagh. A mek may not know how a machine works, but he knows it doesn't need to be appropriated, prayed to or blessed, he will just fix that damn thing with some duct tape, grease and nails and it will work because he has an instinctual knowledge of
how this works, just as we have an instinctive knowledge of how to breathe.



The mistake you're making is to assume people mean that the gun cannot function without ork psychic input, instead try to think of it as a helping hand..something that in some small way helps moderate the crippling unreliability of everything orky but won't stop everything exploding in typical ork style eventually, more of a stop gap.
You don't even have to think of it as a field, use your imagination..make it more like the ork version of a machine spirit that is imprinted onto any weapon whether it's created by orks or not, so if something is around orks for a while it begins to get charged by all the energy around.

Also orks are cunning in the way a wild animal is cunning, they can have instincts for tactics and using tools but that doesn't have to cover everything.

gwarsh41
15-09-2010, 15:20
The mistake you're making is to assume people mean that the gun cannot function without ork psychic input, instead try to think of it as a helping hand..something that in some small way helps moderate the crippling unreliability of everything orky but won't stop everything exploding in typical ork style eventually, more of a stop gap.
You don't even have to think of it as a field, use your imagination..make it more like the ork version of a machine spirit that is imprinted onto any weapon whether it's created by orks or not, so if something is around orks for a while it begins to get charged by all the energy around.

Also orks are cunning in the way a wild animal is cunning, they can have instincts for tactics and using tools but that doesn't have to cover everything.

Well put, I dont think anyone should be looking into this topic as much as they are.

New rule.
Power of the Ork spirit. (lets orks use guns)

massey
15-09-2010, 16:22
Commissar Yarrick has been able to use his ork power klaw pretty well over the last few decades. I don't think there's been any indication of it breaking or having reliability issues. At the basic level, ork technology works just like other forms of technology. You have to have the right parts in the right place to make things work. Orks just have a different design philosophy than humans.

I heard a story years ago, no idea if it's true or not, about American engineers looking over a Russian jet fighter after the end of the Cold War. They were both amazed and amused at what they found inside. While the avionics were quite advanced, the electronics that controlled the plane were incredibly primitive, to the point that the American engineers were amazed the plane would actually fly. Similar to how we aren't sure today how the Egyptians managed to build the Pyramids with the tools they had at the time, they couldn't figure out how such an aerodynamically unstable plane (instability increases maneuverability, but requires computer control to fly) could stay in the air running basically on transistors.

Is see ork technology as the same. While a gun is a gun (and though big and crude, it's still not that complex), advanced technology like plasma weapons or force fields are missing a lot of things that Imperial scholars would think are necessary. It's something they would have never even thought to try. "Of course you need a flux capacitor in that thing, how else are you going to deal with XYZ problem?"

I think thematically, any sort of "psychic lubricant" of their tech should be limited to the way that the Fonz can make the jukebox play music just by kicking it with his foot. I imagine some sort of "Enemy Mine" scenario where a guardsman and an ork are forced to work together. Human: "This vehicle won't start. I've turned the key, hit the starter, nothing works." Ork: Kick ...rumble rumble rumble... "There. It work now." It should be used more for humor value than as any actual attempt to explain.

Decius
15-09-2010, 20:52
Orks have never been described as being capable of understanding how or why their technology works. Acceptance of Anzion's theory does absolutely nothing to change this. Orks have always been able to make functional high-end technology, but it has always been as a product of their subconscious abilities which are sourced in their genetic engineering. Acceptance of Anzion's theory does nothing to change this either.

I'm not sure why you two think the subconscious ability to build something that works is more impressive or demonstrates more intelligence than the subconscious ability to build something that mostly works supplemented with a subconscious psychic ability that means that your mostly-working object is more likely to work. It's the same level of technological knowledge - none. On the Anzion theory, Orks are just as stupid as they've always been.

Maybe it's just me, but having an instinctual knowledge of mechanics is more impressive than almost having an instinctual knowledge of mechanics with "magic" to pick up the slack.

Perhaps I'm starting to leave established fluff and delve into my own personal opinions, but I see Orks as a species capable of outshining other more "enlightened" races despite their apparent inferiority. I prefer the idea that Orks hold their own in 40k with nothing but perseverance and a brutal out look on life. Anzion's theory damages my "noble savage" image of Orks, which I suppose is why I'm so opposed to the theory. It says that the Ork's can't survive the galaxy without an invisible force holding together every little piece of technology. It says that the Orks can't do it themselves. To me, it's a crutch. I prefer the Orks to stand on their own.

If anything, I at least understand now why I dislike Anzion's theory so much. :p

Dakkagor
15-09-2010, 22:45
Yes, it actually does. It takes skill and expertise to build a warwalker, but with Anzions theory taken at face value, Ork's don't need to know anything to have their tech. It replaces technological knowledge and ingenuity with psychic fairy dust. They don't need to be smart, they just need to be there. It makes them look stupid.


Maybe it's just me, but having an instinctual knowledge of mechanics is more impressive than almost having an instinctual knowledge of mechanics with "magic" to pick up the slack.

Perhaps I'm starting to leave established fluff and delve into my own personal opinions, but I see Orks as a species capable of outshining other more "enlightened" races despite their apparent inferiority. I prefer the idea that Orks hold their own in 40k with nothing but perseverance and a brutal out look on life. Anzion's theory damages my "noble savage" image of Orks, which I suppose is why I'm so opposed to the theory. It says that the Ork's can't survive the galaxy without an invisible force holding together every little piece of technology. It says that the Orks can't do it themselves. To me, it's a crutch. I prefer the Orks to stand on their own.

If anything, I at least understand now why I dislike Anzion's theory so much. :p

Decius has put it in much better terms than I ever could, in short, I agree with him!

Grimbad
15-09-2010, 23:04
The psychic field should be about as effective as duct tape. It's not a permanent, expert solution to anything, it won't prevent all breakdowns, it just keeps it all together a little.
Besides which, orks have a strong notion of what makes a 'proppa' warrior, and guns jamming at the wrong time could be a part of that- how else do you know when to stop shooting and start using it as a club?

By virtue of being the ones doing the looting, the ork hunters naturally have the best ork gear they can find. IE, functional stuff.

madd0ct0r
16-09-2010, 01:48
3) Their technology is ramshackle and, to most trained eyes shouldn't work.


It's this idea, (not actually argued by Memnos) that I have a problem with. Ork tech may not be elegant or capable of the centuries of service of an STC design, but they are well built and do work.

the best ork designs are the ones that look like they've had some thought, as opposed to gluing a pile of bits together with some wheels on the bottom.

DantesInferno
16-09-2010, 02:09
Maybe it's just me, but having an instinctual knowledge of mechanics is more impressive than almost having an instinctual knowledge of mechanics with "magic" to pick up the slack.

Perhaps I'm starting to leave established fluff and delve into my own personal opinions, but I see Orks as a species capable of outshining other more "enlightened" races despite their apparent inferiority. I prefer the idea that Orks hold their own in 40k with nothing but perseverance and a brutal out look on life. Anzion's theory damages my "noble savage" image of Orks, which I suppose is why I'm so opposed to the theory. It says that the Ork's can't survive the galaxy without an invisible force holding together every little piece of technology. It says that the Orks can't do it themselves. To me, it's a crutch. I prefer the Orks to stand on their own.

If anything, I at least understand now why I dislike Anzion's theory so much. :p

If Anzion's theory were accepted, it would reinforce the notion of the Orks as 'a species capable of outshining other more "enlightened" races despite their apparent inferiority', not undermine it.

A genetically-imprinted unconscious psychic ability to improve the working of technology is no less a 'crutch' than a genetically-imprinted unconscious ability to build working technology. Orks are just as savage and just as unaware of how their technology works, in either case. Equally, the Orks are "standing on their own" and "doing it for themselves" in both cases. Anzion's theory is just an additional element in explaining how Orks can make functioning technology without having any conscious understanding of how it works.

Dakkagor
16-09-2010, 08:24
But why have two reasons for the same effect, when one is just as good, and more efficent?

Essentially, why on earth would the brainboyz/old ones/slann bother programming their servants with useless knowledge, then apply a patch in the form of a psychic field? Why not just teach the orks how things work in the first place and not bother with an over complicated, selective psychic power that makes their stuff work?

Other thoughts:

If orks think red ones go faster, why don't blood angels have fleet or plus +1 initiative when fighting orks? Same for Saim Hann, hive fleet kraken, etc etc.

If ork technology is a psychic effect, why aren't culexus assassins completely immune to it, or cause an automatic glancing hit against any ork vehicle they assault? Why didn't jurgen in the ciaphas cain novels cause ork guns to jam just by his presence?

Decius
16-09-2010, 18:03
Anzion's theory is just an additional element in explaining how Orks can make functioning technology without having any conscious understanding of how it works.

I understand that. It just really grinds my gears.


But why have two reasons for the same effect, when one is just as good, and more efficent?

Essentially, why on earth would the brainboyz/old ones/slann bother programming their servants with useless knowledge, then apply a patch in the form of a psychic field? Why not just teach the orks how things work in the first place and not bother with an over complicated, selective psychic power that makes their stuff work?

Other thoughts:

If orks think red ones go faster, why don't blood angels have fleet or plus +1 initiative when fighting orks? Same for Saim Hann, hive fleet kraken, etc etc.

If ork technology is a psychic effect, why aren't culexus assassins completely immune to it, or cause an automatic glancing hit against any ork vehicle they assault? Why didn't jurgen in the ciaphas cain novels cause ork guns to jam just by his presence?

Excellent points. Talk you way out of this one Mr. Bond. :p

DantesInferno
16-09-2010, 23:47
But why have two reasons for the same effect, when one is just as good, and more efficent?

Essentially, why on earth would the brainboyz/old ones/slann bother programming their servants with useless knowledge, then apply a patch in the form of a psychic field? Why not just teach the orks how things work in the first place and not bother with an over complicated, selective psychic power that makes their stuff work?

A few reasons for this:
First, the Old Ones were masters of warp-based engineering. This was the one area in which they could outmatch the Necrons and C'tan. The Old Ones' previous attempts at creating warrior races had apparently largely focused on weaponising psychic power - just look at the Eldar. Indeed, these efforts seem to have been largely successful, since the warp-based powers of their client races was initially winning the War in Heaven for the Old Ones. The problem for the Old Ones was that the sheer amount of turbulence in the warp was creating warp predators who were starting to prey on their client races, and the Necrons and C'tan were capitalising on the Old Ones' difficulties by counter-attacking. It was at this point the (Kr)ork were created. One element of their design was clearly to protect them against warp predators - this is one of the primary effects of their Waaagh warp field. However, I can't see why the Old Ones, in designing the Orks, would not have attempted to make the most of the ability to tap into the Warp, in effect forfeiting the one advantage their races had over the Necrons and C'tan. Even if warp usage is not the Orks' primary weapon (as it may have been for the primitive Eldar), it makes sense that the Old Ones would build it in as a latent advantage in as many ways as they could.

Secondly, it may well have been easier for the Old Ones to design their client races with latent psychic power than to design them with fully-functional genetic memory of incredibly advanced technology (or genetic ability to unconsciously develop said technology). Given that the Old Ones' engineering efforts had largely focused on the use of the Warp (e.g. creation of the Eldar, building the Webway), this doesn't seem implausible to me.

Finally, Orks were apparently designed as an ultimate last-ditch survival effort. They're designed to be difficult to eradicate, spread easily, and be incredibly self-sufficient. Why not design a bit of redundancy if you can? This also explains why the Old Ones didn't just teach the Orks the technology they needed. The Orks were specifically designed to flourish without needing any external input. Just seed them on a planet and away you go.


If orks think red ones go faster, why don't blood angels have fleet or plus +1 initiative when fighting orks? Same for Saim Hann, hive fleet kraken, etc etc.

If ork technology is a psychic effect, why aren't culexus assassins completely immune to it, or cause an automatic glancing hit against any ork vehicle they assault? Why didn't jurgen in the ciaphas cain novels cause ork guns to jam just by his presence?

There's certainly no indication that the psychic effect needs to be noticeable on a 40k scale. Given the imprecision of the D6 system, the smallest bump in efficiency is something in the order of 16%. There's no reason that the Ork psychic "grease" for their technology would need to have such a large effect in the 40k wargame. You have to remember that the suggested effect is fairly minor. There's no reason to think that, for instance, the mere presence of a pariah would cause all Ork technology to malfunction.

And there's obviously the game-balance point. It would unbalance the Orks against certain other armies (eg red ones) for no apparent reason.

Finally, note that the Orks' morale effects are largely due to their communal latent psychic power and the Culexus doesn't have any effect on that. There's no reason it would need to have an effect on their technology for the same reason. It's just a small-scale wargame balance issue that doesn't need to have any effect on the background.


Excellent points. Talk you way out of this one Mr. Bond. :p

:p

Your move...

Dakkagor
17-09-2010, 10:13
A few reasons for this:
First, the Old Ones were masters of warp-based engineering. This was the one area in which they could outmatch the Necrons and C'tan. The Old Ones' previous attempts at creating warrior races had apparently largely focused on weaponising psychic power - just look at the Eldar. Indeed, these efforts seem to have been largely successful, since the warp-based powers of their client races was initially winning the War in Heaven for the Old Ones. The problem for the Old Ones was that the sheer amount of turbulence in the warp was creating warp predators who were starting to prey on their client races, and the Necrons and C'tan were capitalising on the Old Ones' difficulties by counter-attacking. It was at this point the (Kr)ork were created. One element of their design was clearly to protect them against warp predators - this is one of the primary effects of their Waaagh warp field. However, I can't see why the Old Ones, in designing the Orks, would not have attempted to make the most of the ability to tap into the Warp, in effect forfeiting the one advantage their races had over the Necrons and C'tan. Even if warp usage is not the Orks' primary weapon (as it may have been for the primitive Eldar), it makes sense that the Old Ones would build it in as a latent advantage in as many ways as they could.

The reason orks don't rely on the warp is simple: the warp had become inherently unreliable due to the war in heaven, the rise of the enslaver plague and the first warp entities forming due to the war. In short, the warp as a weapon had failed, as indicated by the fact the old ones where down to using the orks as a last ditch to defend their last few holdings. Is it really all that surprising that they would design a weapon that didn't rely on something that would eat their brains, and instead created a self sustaining grunt race that could continually reproduce and fight, even if the necrons plan to isolate the galaxy from the warp went through? If that was the case, the orks would be the ultimate scorched earth policy: you can have your no psychic galaxy, but you'll never be rid of our last creation.



Secondly, it may well have been easier for the Old Ones to design their client races with latent psychic power than to design them with fully-functional genetic memory of incredibly advanced technology (or genetic ability to unconsciously develop said technology). Given that the Old Ones' engineering efforts had largely focused on the use of the Warp (e.g. creation of the Eldar, building the Webway), this doesn't seem implausible to me.


Maybe, but I doubt it. If the old ones where truly as mighty as all that, I don't see why cramming an encyclopedia of useful technology into junk DNA would be that difficult. Infact, a rushed, half botched job explains why ork tech is so ramshackle and in some cases unreliable, if the old ones had had more time and expertise, they could have done a better job. they didn't and therefore ork technology is made of scrap and duct tape. It still works on its own though.


Finally, Orks were apparently designed as an ultimate last-ditch survival effort. They're designed to be difficult to eradicate, spread easily, and be incredibly self-sufficient. Why not design a bit of redundancy if you can? This also explains why the Old Ones didn't just teach the Orks the technology they needed. The Orks were specifically designed to flourish without needing any external input. Just seed them on a planet and away you go.

As I have stated, that redundancy would have been nullified by the C'tans plan to cut off the warp. It would have been useless. As an engineering principal, useless redundancy is left on out of any design. That plan may have defeated the orks anyway (as it would have taken all the detected psychic controls out of ork society and biology) but those could be managed by pheremones for all we know, as redundant system (As covered by gorkamorka, orks have a fantastic sense of smell when it comes to detecting other orks and determining their heirarchy inately)


There's certainly no indication that the psychic effect needs to be noticeable on a 40k scale. Given the imprecision of the D6 system, the smallest bump in efficiency is something in the order of 16%. There's no reason that the Ork psychic "grease" for their technology would need to have such a large effect in the 40k wargame. You have to remember that the suggested effect is fairly minor. There's no reason to think that, for instance, the mere presence of a pariah would cause all Ork technology to malfunction.

However orks are noted as being more intimidated by red armies (or atleast using the colour as an excuse), for instance the blood angels are often commented to 'go fasta cause dey is red ones', so their belief that red ones go fasta could apply. Red paint jobs are an incremental change (+1 inch speed), so why not throw an incremental boost in for blood angel vehicles, or evil sunz boyz, or . . .



And there's obviously the game-balance point. It would unbalance the Orks against certain other armies (eg red ones) for no apparent reason.

like GW gives two fraks about game balance these days ;)


Finally, note that the Orks' morale effects are largely due to their communal latent psychic power and the Culexus doesn't have any effect on that. There's no reason it would need to have an effect on their technology for the same reason. It's just a small-scale wargame balance issue that doesn't need to have any effect on the background.

But the wargame IS fluff, to a greater or lesser extent. The two are linked, if not the same. One informs the other. Things change in one because they changed in the other first.


Your move...

:moves a pawn across the table:

madd0ct0r
18-09-2010, 13:38
Hmm, so Blood Angels and Sam Hainn may move a little faster when fighting orks?
Are there any slow red armies out there?

Also, can we estimate the data needed to be compressed into the dna for Ork technology?

It's clearly principles, not blue prints, so it could be the Meks just making use of whatever things intrest them at the time. There is also a lot of room for experiment'n in a Mek's life, so stuff outside of principles (ie, a good design for a battlewagon) might come about by trial and error.
The principle of the internal combustion / steam boiler engine is in his head, but the exact expression is up to the ork.

Tishr
18-09-2010, 23:52
My understanding was that part of the use of the psychic field was to compensate for the rather poor materials commonly used by the orks.

Dakkagor
04-10-2010, 23:19
Hmm, so Blood Angels and Sam Hainn may move a little faster when fighting orks?
Are there any slow red armies out there?

You've missed my point. Those armies DON'T go any faster when fighting orks. If anything, its a minor psychological edge against the orks and nothing more. Orks probably view black templars as 'proper ard boyz' because they dress like goffs and fight in close combat. That doesn't make them goffs, or turn them into goffs, or make them think like goffs. Orks just happen to assosciate different colours with different modus operandi.


Also, can we estimate the data needed to be compressed into the dna for Ork technology?

It's clearly principles, not blue prints, so it could be the Meks just making use of whatever things intrest them at the time. There is also a lot of room for experiment'n in a Mek's life, so stuff outside of principles (ie, a good design for a battlewagon) might come about by trial and error.
The principle of the internal combustion / steam boiler engine is in his head, but the exact expression is up to the ork.

Apart from the fact that blueprints seem to be included aswell. An ork mek on gorkamorka was able to instinctively identify a dreadnought despite the fact no ork on gorkamorka had built a dreadought or seen one in hundreds of years.


My understanding was that part of the use of the psychic field was to compensate for the rather poor materials commonly used by the orks.

Crappy materials have been used to provide perfectly servicible warmachines in the past, by humankind. Thats like saying belief in the German Empire and Bismark allowed german battleships to set speed records when welsh coal was unavailable, rather than the fine engines or good design principals behind the vessels themselves.

Balgora
05-10-2010, 08:43
Crappy materials have been used to provide perfectly servicible warmachines in the past, by humankind. Thats like saying belief in the German Empire and Bismark allowed german battleships to set speed records when welsh coal was unavailable, rather than the fine engines or good design principals behind the vessels themselves.

I agree..
The Bismark must have gone out of range of the German population's personal psychic power field while it was floating around on the ocean and therefore had to fall back on good design principals to compensate. I wonder what the word for 'weirdboyz' is in German.

I'm secretly hoping that wasn't a serious argument : /

Dakkagor
05-10-2010, 10:22
I agree..
The Bismark must have gone out of range of the German population's personal psychic power field while it was floating around on the ocean and therefore had to fall back on good design principals to compensate. I wonder what the word for 'weirdboyz' is in German.

I'm secretly hoping that wasn't a serious argument : /

No, ofcourse it wasn't. The point I was making, boiled down, is this:

Because something is made of inferior materials, or is primitively engineered, it does not require a 'fairy dust solution' to make it work. Sometimes primitive engineering and crappy materials work just fine.

The orks are an example of keep it simple stupid applied to the Nth degree. Their technology works because its robust, uncomplicated, solidly built and designed for orks. No other explanation required.

Getz
05-10-2010, 11:00
Actually I think that Dakkagor was referring to the fact that during WWI German ships lost a knot or two of speed once they no longer had access to welsh coal (because welsh coal is burns hotter than the relatively "impure" coal that German mines supplied). German ships were still as fast as British ship in service, however, because of their more advanced boiler design.

I'm not quite sure where he's going with this analogy, but I think the point is that inferior materials can still get results if you know what you're doing with them.

Gav2k
05-10-2010, 11:08
I'z got a kweshchun for da boyz. Dere's 3 coloured Trukks inna race. Red wun goes FASTA, Blue wun is LUCKY, and da Green wun is BEST.

WHO WINZ!?

Askil the Undecided
05-10-2010, 11:55
Da Yella wun dat wuz late winz, kuz dat wunz da most SHOOTY.

Orks are rough, violently bad tempered,, unreliable, brutal, simple and often crudely put together from disparate sources. Why would their technology show any signs of being otherwise?

Orks work for the same reason as their technology:

BECAUSE THEY ARE IMPROBABLY RESILIENT AND CRUDE.

Here is an example:

When a Human wants to make a light switch so he can turn his electric lights off, he considers the safety of those using it, how it would be placed, the ease of use and ease of cleaning and maintainence. As such he make a self contained modular unit that can be mounted on a walls that conceals all the wire ends and is easy to use, clean, maintain and replace.

When an Ork wants to build a light switch so he can turn his electric lights off, he takes the closet jagged bit of metal to hand, wraps half of it in leather, and jams his new knife through the wire thus turning off the light.

Chainedfly2002
05-10-2010, 13:21
okay i have a question regarding Anzion theory:
If a Ork hold's a tree branch and believes it's a gun, it will shoot bullets. right now what if a Ork believes a tree is a gargant, will the tree become a gargant then? and if so how? will it be the tree with a vague shape of a gargant around it, or will the tree expand into a giant tree gargant (with red leaf paintjob)?

Decius
05-10-2010, 13:45
okay i have a question regarding Anzion theory:
If a Ork hold's a tree branch and believes it's a gun, it will shoot bullets. right now what if a Ork believes a tree is a gargant, will the tree become a gargant then? and if so how? will it be the tree with a vague shape of a gargant around it, or will the tree expand into a giant tree gargant (with red leaf paintjob)?

Nice try , troll. :p

x-esiv-4c
05-10-2010, 13:50
Doesn't Redemption Corps detail the whole "It works if they think it does" theory?

massey
05-10-2010, 15:28
Doesn't Redemption Corps detail the whole "It works if they think it does" theory?

That theory has been debated a million times on this board. I think there is general agreement that:

1) Orks aren't stupid, and aren't going to believe a stick shoots bullets. Ork tech at a minimum has to have moving parts, make noises, and "look the part". Now, a big huge magna-ray, with glowing coils and steam pistons and two big rods that stick out of the top so that electricity can arc between them, they'll believe that thing can shoot. Whether their belief makes any difference is up for debate. But they aren't going to believe a tree is a gargant.

2) Ork technology has been shown to work for non-orks. Commissar Yarrick has that big ork power claw, and it presumably works while he's not fighting orks.

3) If ork technology is affected by some psychic field, it's in a very subtle way that isn't obvious. Parts don't float in the air, bullets don't materialize out of thin air, vehicles don't run after they're out of gas, etc.

Chainedfly2002
06-10-2010, 09:11
@Decius actually I wasn't trying to troll... but thanks anyway