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Ironmonger
08-09-2010, 21:37
I'm looking into starting a DoW pike army and was curious as to the general consensus regarding the viability of using deep units of pikemen in 8th edition. I figure this was a tactical question, hence the posting of it here rather then in general.

Gotrek
08-09-2010, 23:20
4 ranks attacks? yes please.
ain't there a +1 str vs cavalary charges as well to sweeten the deal even more?

Brother Alexos
08-09-2010, 23:37
4 ranks attacks? yes please.
ain't there a +1 str vs cavalary charges as well to sweeten the deal even more?

That is good, but I think that you'll need to include some Warmachines as well. I suggest you look here:
http://www.solegends.com/citrr/index.htm

and here:

http://www.solegends.com/citmd/index.htm

_dandaman_
08-09-2010, 23:48
4 ranks attacks? yes please.
ain't there a +1 str vs cavalary charges as well to sweeten the deal even more?

Actually I believe its +1 strength when being charged in general, so run a horde of 60, 50 attacks at strength 5 at I3, so much fun. Back it up with galloper guns and cannons, and whatever other shooting available, and boom, muahahahahaha :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin: :evilgrin:

Peril
08-09-2010, 23:53
It is 5 ranks of attacks now (4 normally +1 for supporting). Add a Beasts or Shadow wizard and watch stuff melt.

The +1 Str is only when being charged by cavalry.

I think they are ace.

Agoz
09-09-2010, 01:04
in all actuality, the +1 str applies when being charged by cavalry AND monsters!

mistrmoon
09-09-2010, 07:38
considering when the rule was written that included ogres and such i would apply it to monsters, monstrous beasts, monstrous infantry and monstrous cav. Dont forget ASF in the first round of combat regardless of whether you charged or not or what your fighting, and dont forget your reroll to hit against slow things.

Ironmonger
09-09-2010, 17:25
Actually I believe its +1 strength when being charged in general, so run a horde of 60, 50 attacks at strength 5 at I3, so much fun. Back it up with galloper guns and cannons, and whatever other shooting available, and boom, muahahahahaha

The list I'm working on is actually a few of these big blocks, some gallopers/cannons, a big block of halbardeirs w/paymaster, and skirmishing pistoliers. I'd really like to get some more shooty into it with a few small units of crossbowmen for some close range support to soften up perspective enemy units, as well as some magicalishness.

I wish DoW could field Greatswords/Halberds like their real-life counterparts :(

Peril
09-09-2010, 18:14
I wish DoW could field Greatswords/Halberds like their real-life counterparts :(

Paymaster's Bodyguard - Stubborn (with the Paymaster) WS4 Halberds

Ironmonger
09-09-2010, 18:23
Paymaster's Bodyguard - Stubborn (with the Paymaster) WS4 Halberds

Yes, I know. See my above post. I was just wishing you could take more then one unit. Leave them in special, sure, but let me have the option of a few blocks of them.

Peril
09-09-2010, 19:38
oops reading comprehension fail. You could take a Captain with the Crown of Command and put with some Great Weapon Dwarves I guess.

Kulgur
09-09-2010, 20:35
Pikes? No. No no no no no.

Quick recount of the pike rules:
Strike in four ranks, strikes first in the initial round of combat unless the enemy has a rule or magic that makes them strike first, +1 str in the first round of combat against cavalry or monster charges from the front.
None of these special rules can be used against enemy units fighting the pikemen's flank or rear

11pts per model for a pikeman with heavy armour. Assuming you have enough models to take hits and still get full attacks, you'll be spending in the region of 330pts before command for WS3 S3 troops. Against an equal unit you'll get 25 attacks, 12.5 hits, 6 wounds with no mod. Pitting them against roughly equal pts of orc boyz (typical choppa and shield boyz vs heavy armour pikes):

30xPikes strike first, 25 attacks, 12.5hits, 4.2 wounds, 2.8 unsaved
60xBoyz strike back, 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3.3 wounds, 2.2 unsaved

On a good round the pikes will JUST win combat, and the boyz will be easily stubborn given that choppa+shield boyz are roughly half the cost.

Against High Elves it's far far worse, as they're cheaper, strike before you, hit on 3s, strike in almost as many ranks, and re-roll to hit.

Yes, you CAN say "I'll buff them with magic" but your opponent can easily either buff HIS unit with magic or merely dispel your magic.

BorderKing
09-09-2010, 21:15
I was always under the impression that ROR pike units are good. I read about one person usingPirazzo's unit in a warband effectively, and that Ricco's is always considered a good option. Leopold is now overcosted and so are regular pikmen though.

Peril
09-09-2010, 21:39
Why on earth would you spend the points to upgrade Pikes to heavy armor? Also, totally dimissing buffs is folly. Not everyone has access to good unit buffs, and not all of them are dispellable after they are cast. A buff/debuff into combat is alot more effective when it affects 25 attacks than it does 10.

Commissar Vaughn
09-09-2010, 21:45
Pikes are fun and Id never leave them behind, but I cant pretend they are good value for points.


I use 28 vanilla plus captain, and 12 each of Leopold Leopards and the Alcatani Fellowship. I find the two regiments of Reknown to be a lot more effective than the larger regiment: possibly becouse they dont look threatening, so they get ignored long enough to run around the flank ;)

Kulgur
10-09-2010, 02:39
Why on earth would you spend the points to upgrade Pikes to heavy armor?

It works out cheaper than just taking more pikes, it's a 1pt upgrade


Also, totally dimissing buffs is folly. Not everyone has access to good unit buffs,

Anyone with access to rulebook lores of magic have access to some hefty buffs, Dogs of War in particular have access to all 8 lores. The only army that springs to mind that doesn't really is Dwarfs which I haven't really seen yet this edition.

Besides, if you start factoring in unit buffs, why not factor in luck too? The more variables like that you add in the harder it is to get anything meaningful from the result.


and not all of them are dispellable after they are cast.

Um, unless you cast with irresistible force, what's to stop your opponent just dispelling your attempt?


A buff/debuff into combat is alot more effective when it affects 25 attacks than it does 10.

That would depend on the nature of the buff, for an offensive (de)buff then yes probably it would.

tiekwando
10-09-2010, 04:57
I have to say that I agree with Kulgar on a few things. Pikes are not that great, 30 s3 attacks that will generally hit 1/2 the time and wound about 1/2 to 1/3 of the time with no effect on armor saves. The biggest problem is that the unit is really expensive and extremely vulnerable to being flanked. Also it can be buffed, but it also be debuffed. Additionally, it is vulnerable to every big spell (low i, low s, low armor save combined with low t, combined with necessary big units and relative high cost)

someone2040
10-09-2010, 06:22
Pikes are a good 3 points overcosted. Look to the special choices for decent infantry choices in a Dogs of War army.
No true ASF. Crappy armour, just a mass of strength 3 attacks. Can't take a magic banner to attempt to boost them.
On a point for point basis, you just can't do well with Pikemen.

Of course, you can do some pretty crazy stuff with them. The buffs help them out immensely, especially Mindrazor. But it's still only makes them decent, and without some defensive help anything that is choppy can still go right through Pikemen.

Kulgur
10-09-2010, 13:12
I find they're more useful against inexperienced opponents who just go "That unit has HOW MANY attacks?" and start avoiding it at all costs without realising number of attacks isn't everything.

Jericho
10-09-2010, 16:45
When I first saw the 8th edition magic lores and magic item lists I was excited for the DoW. They got better than they were in 7th... but so did everyone else. And army book magic items > common items still. And spending more pts on characters now taxes your infantry even more, when they were always a bit overpriced.

I can see pikes being around 8pts w/ armor. If they went up to WS and/or I4 then that would warrant a higher cost like they have now. Ricco's are still the best pikes, as they are all overcosted but these ones have WS4 which keeps them alive. And occasionally lets them hit on 3's.

Haravikk
10-09-2010, 22:36
I've played a game or two with them, but I like them only for how cool they can look. The insane ranks of attacks are cool and all and you're right they're the best "value" for casting a buff onto, but even assuming you can do that each turn they're not often going to be worth the points you'll lose in return if the enemy just bombs them with a stone-thrower or the magic spells of doom.

I'd love to see a Dogs of War for 8th edition, especially with so many regiments of renown still available to buy. The list isn't uncompetitive by any means (other than many tournaments may not allow it to compete), but pikeman definitely aren't worth it at the moment.

BorderKing
11-09-2010, 16:21
Are pikemen worth it with a magic banner? I can see Borgio being worth his cost, and if you give a pike unit the banner of eternal flame it might be worth using them to hunt down hydra's/aboms.

freddieyu
11-09-2010, 16:49
I use the Dow pikemen as simply spearmen in my empire army....

The problem with pikemen is ranking them up....I wish I had them regiment bases....

Kellindel
11-09-2010, 17:06
Against High Elves it's far far worse, as they're cheaper, strike before you, hit on 3s, strike in almost as many ranks, and re-roll to hit.

Yes, you CAN say "I'll buff them with magic" but your opponent can easily either buff HIS unit with magic or merely dispel your magic.

Ahhh ... Seeing how I play HE and I have a Vet DOW player I can say this.

My Spearmen might be cheaper, but I still have to wound on a 4+ and he will still get his 5+ armor save. You're putting to much faith in the HE ability to wound.

That being said, I never charge any of his 3 blocks of 25+ strong Pikemen with out supporting flank charges and magic buffs. And he usually only lets me get off the ones he knows he can deal with. Last game I hit his unit of 50 strong with a 20 some unit of Spearmen, flanked with a 15 unit of PG with my Archmage a great eagle to the rear.

The only reason why it worked SO well is because my Mage IC his lore of life spell, and did GODS load of damage to his units .... Without that cast, he was going to hit it.

theorox
11-09-2010, 17:11
So DoW are still compatible with 8th? I'm happy to hear it guys. Good for you. :)

Theo

Ironmonger
12-09-2010, 00:28
Thank Alessio. He's good like that.

Kulgur
12-09-2010, 03:29
Ahhh ... Seeing how I play HE and I have a Vet DOW player I can say this.

My Spearmen might be cheaper, but I still have to wound on a 4+ and he will still get his 5+ armor save. You're putting to much faith in the HE ability to wound.

The pikes are hitting on 4s wounding on 4s, and you have light armour + shield as standard for a 5+.

The spears are hitting on 3s, striking first, re-rolling to hit, wounding on 4s, pikes get 5+ save with heavy armour upgrade.

Assuming 40v40 (in realtiy, that's going to be spears having the cheaper unit by around 80 points, even if both sides have commands). Also assuming standard formations of 5 wide

Spears strike first, 20 attacks, 13.3hit, re-roll adds another 4.4 to total 17.7 hits, 8.85 wound, 5.9 kill

Pikes strike second, 25 attacks, 12.5 hit, 6.25 wound, 4.17 kill

Pikes lose by 1 or 2, lack ranks for stubborn, ld5 or 6 test is very likely without a general nearby, and even with him ld7 or 8 is failable. Even if the pikes don't break, the spears will win the war of attrition.

tiekwando
12-09-2010, 03:34
Lets see, HE get 20 attacks, 8/9 hits, 1/2 wound, 2/3 fail saves. 6 dead pikemen.

DOW pikeman get 25 attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound and 2/3 fail saves. 4 Spearmen.

These pikemen cost 11 points/model against 9 points and they end up loosing 2 more models in any fair fight. Oh and the elves go first, and they get their attacks in less ranks... So pretty much a no brainer that spearelves are better.

35 pikes with heavy armor against 25 spearelves. Spearelves win every single round of combat (tie in the 5th round) and eventually outlast the pikemen if they managed to pass every single ld check. Also its 160 points more.

Peril
12-09-2010, 09:58
Of course the original question wasn't "which are better - pikes or high elf spears?"

Pikes are plenty usable.

Commissar Vaughn
12-09-2010, 10:08
Lol thats true, youve gotta pick the fight carefully though, and do whatever you can with regards to tipping the scales in your favour with flank charges, Hexs etc....

Gotrek
12-09-2010, 17:21
why is everyone here focusing on pitting them against HE spearmen just so they don't get the stryke 1st component of their weapons? do the same math against other spearmen, other races other units.

Ironmonger
12-09-2010, 17:59
Yeah, I pretty much ignored this thread after I saw it get taken over by 'Mathhammer' and people focusing on a single-unit comparison. I got my answer. Thanks. If you wanna go play High Elves instead of a relatively obscure human contingent, then by all means be my guest.

someone2040
15-09-2010, 09:12
High Elves are the worst possible match up for Pikemen. The reason being is that you are paying for 2 abilities which mean nothing (striking first, strength 4 against cav and monsters). So it basically makes Pikes look ridiculous.

Pikes are still ridiculous, quite overcosted, but throwing them against High Elves isn't really proving the point.

Ironmonger
20-09-2010, 08:12
OK... doing my best to ignore 'Maffhammer' and HE talk, I'd like to talk buffs/debuff for a minute. I've heard Beasts and Shadow... but what about Metal? Enchanted Blades... seems like it'd simply RUN through stuff; as well, getting off Transmutation of Lead doesn't look too pretty for your opponent.

OT thoughts? As a general build I'm thinking more and more of using a BIG block of Ricco, 3 galloper guns, a big block of halberdiers/Paymaster, and some Besiegers to base the force around. Gods, I wish that Ricco's Rep. Guard had models that were in the '3 positions' like a few of the other pikemen regiments! Oh, well...

Glen_Savet
20-09-2010, 21:42
Why not Light? Extra attacks, more movement, WS 10 and I 10 could give the pikes rerolls to hit when charged.

Braden Campbell
21-09-2010, 14:44
Pikes excell, much as they did in real life, at stopping frontal cavalry charges. Granted, this doesn't happen in 8th as often as it did in 7th, but unless the mounts cause fear, several horses will die if they run headlong into a pike bloc. Pikes on their own are a great defensive unit - park them on an objective and they will hold it with 4 ranks worth of attacks.

Pikes going on the offensive is different, and for a long time, I couldn't get the hang of building a pike unit that could steamroller over the enemy without getting blown to pieces or brutally flank charged along the way. However, what I have recently discovered is that, between Quick to Fire, Move and Shoot, and the skirmishers rule of Fire on the March, Dogs of War Duelists can march 8" and still fire their pistols 12". Therefore, the concept of pike and shot becomes possible in Warhammer - with a central pike bloc flanked by light guns.

In my particular army (36 pikes, and two units of 10 Duelists) it looks something like this:

DDDDD PPPPPP DDDDD
DDDDD PPPPPP DDDDD
...........PPPPPP
...........PPPPPP
...........PPPPPP
...........PPPPPP

D= duelist; P= pikeman.

Ironmonger
22-09-2010, 07:21
Pikes excell, much as they did in real life, at stopping frontal cavalry charges. Granted, this doesn't happen in 8th as often as it did in 7th, but unless the mounts cause fear, several horses will die if they run headlong into a pike bloc. Pikes on their own are a great defensive unit - park them on an objective and they will hold it with 4 ranks worth of attacks.

Pikes going on the offensive is different, and for a long time, I couldn't get the hang of building a pike unit that could steamroller over the enemy without getting blown to pieces or brutally flank charged along the way. However, what I have recently discovered is that, between Quick to Fire, Move and Shoot, and the skirmishers rule of Fire on the March, Dogs of War Duelists can march 8" and still fire their pistols 12". Therefore, the concept of pike and shot becomes possible in Warhammer - with a central pike bloc flanked by light guns.

In my particular army (36 pikes, and two units of 10 Duelists) it looks something like this:

DDDDD PPPPPP DDDDD
DDDDD PPPPPP DDDDD
...........PPPPPP
...........PPPPPP
...........PPPPPP
...........PPPPPP

D= duelist; P= pikeman.

As you can see from my earlier posts this was my first idea at a build. I'll be play testing it with some Metal and Light wizards (and some larger blocks then 36 of pikes) soon...