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Hashulaman
12-09-2010, 18:32
As the thread asks how do you use your Hellcannon? Ive recently used mine for purely close combat, has not done as well as I hoped. Shooting is just as iffy, so I am thinking to split the diffference and only charge when possible, shoot the rest of the time.

As for the panic test, I do not want to take a BSB with the -1 to leadership to add to the -1 to panic. Ldr tests are much more reliable with BSB, and I'd like a more defensive and survivable BSB that would also be cheaper with the full 50 points of items and 25 points of gifts rather than just mundane stuff and a massively expensive banner.

russellmoo
13-09-2010, 00:11
Doom and darkness plus a hellcannon shot-

Or just put it off too one side then it can shoot or if the opportunity presents itself get into combat on a flank.

Mindshred
13-09-2010, 04:31
Generally speaking, my hellcannons decide how they're going to be used each turn quite independant of my own desires. :P

CmdrLaw
13-09-2010, 13:08
Shooting is amazing for the hellcannon, it's got massive STR for a rock lobber and it's near immune to small units that gank warmachines. I would leave it at the back firing away...untill it goes beserk.

Hashulaman
13-09-2010, 22:54
Shame it no longer has the ward save it use to, that would eb a nice addition. People see the hellcannon they either plink it or send a horde at it knowing they will get at leasta few 6's in and a 4+ armor goes but so far.

Warwizard91
13-09-2010, 23:38
Doom and darkness a unit and then hit it with a blast, usually something elite but not heavily armoured (i.e. Swordmasters). Using it for close combat purposes just seems like a waste of our only shooting, if you want something for combat you should probably invest your points in something else. Not that the hellcannon can't hold it's own it's just there are other units that can do it better.

As for the ward save you pretty much get a 5+ and a dwarf takes a wound instead of the cannon. Which can be good for the first couple of dwarves, but is horrible for when you only have one left.

Hashulaman
14-09-2010, 03:21
It is a monster in the BRB which means all attacks go on the Hellcannon in close combat, not the Dwarves. Even in shooting phases you have to randomize like other war machines. A 5-6 hits the dwarf.

Warwizard91
14-09-2010, 04:10
I would advise you to look at page 73 on the topic of monster and handlers it says whenever the monster takes a wound. Which is a ward save of sorts for the cannon.

Djekar
14-09-2010, 07:40
This is interesting to me too since I am close to beginning construction on my Hellcannons. My first reaction is to run them on the flanks since they are unbreakable and pretty combat savvy, firing them until I need some giant daemo-cannon love in close combat.

Macmiel
14-09-2010, 09:11
I would advise you to look at page 73 on the topic of monster and handlers it says whenever the monster takes a wound. Which is a ward save of sorts for the cannon.
Actually randomising for Hellcannon is different from radomising method described in RB. In RB - You first hit and wound monster then goes its saves and then randomising between monster and handlers. For Hellcannon, You hit first, then randomising occurs, then wounding whoever took a randomised hit and then goes saves, if apply. See page 66 in WoCH AB.

Althwen
14-09-2010, 09:28
Yup, I use em on my flanks too.
I tend to deploy them as far forward as my deployment area allows so as to cover my flanks for as long as possible. Then I just let them rip at the enemy lines and let the dice dictate how I'll be using them that turn. If they rampage, at least they're close enough to be a real threat.

When faced with the choice of charging or shooting, I think I'd go for the charge (depending on the target of course, but assuming it's not a unit of White lions) as it's more dependable and the cannon can really use the +1 CR against larger blocks. Never forget that Thunderstomp! It saved my ass on a few occasions.

As for the BSB with the -1LD banner... I wouldn't bother. Armies are a lot less likely to panic nowadays due to BSB's. Just go for the kills.

Harwammer
14-09-2010, 12:15
MacMiel, the armybook FAQ removed the line that says randomise hits between the crew and cannon. Instead you randomise after wounds have been rolled as per the BRB.

I centre my hellcannon template on the opponents BSB, while trying to maximise the number of units touched (thus panic tests caused). If the template scatters it tends to get good coverage on at least one unit, if not I may be lucky and snipe the opponent's BSB (until recently my opponents would bring mounted characters in infantry units because they were't used to needing LoS! rolls against WoC).

I also use a Tz BSB on foot with Doom Banner and shield (3+, 5++ frontal). It just makes the hellcannon so much better and also really helps against steadfast troops. Suprisingly my BSB hasn't yet been killed in battle (though I've had to sacrifice a sorceror to challenges to preserve my BSB... Once my Sorceror took a challenge from a wounded orc warboss and won!).

reddevil18
14-09-2010, 15:28
I use mine mainly to cause panic tests, have a small cheap unit with the -1 LD banner, get off pandamonium and then hit something with the hell cannon and it needs to take a panic test at -2 of its own leadership, even if in the generals reach.

Harwammer
14-09-2010, 17:54
I use mine mainly to cause panic tests, have a small cheap unit with the -1 LD banner, get off pandamonium and then hit something with the hell cannon and it needs to take a panic test at -2 of its own leadership, even if in the generals reach.

Pandaemonium is good but only the bsb can take the -1 Ld banner.

Hashulaman
15-09-2010, 01:06
Maybe if I put another character in the unit with the BSB he can't be killed in a challenge. Thats my biggest concern, that the 3+/5++ parry is not enough for challenges.

CmdrLaw
15-09-2010, 09:53
Who cares about the Panic test when your killing T3 units in heavy armour on 2's without a save. You can completely decimate a 30 strong unit with a good shot. The panic test is just a bonus.

Frankly
15-09-2010, 12:19
Anytime your making your opponant take negative dice rolls is good. The fact that its a secondary effect to the main use of the unit is even better.

Creating options to push advantages, i.e. such as panic check's(and especially damage towards BSBs) shouldn't be scoffed at, its another sting to a players bow.

Infiltraitor
15-09-2010, 15:10
Shooting all the way, Hellcannons are not all that good in combat at all. In shooting however, its brutal. Even some of the misfire result can be beneficial. Rolled a three and had a DE Sorceress explode and kill half the number of warriors she was hiding in. Granted, it put a wound on my disk sorcerer, but such is the way of Chaos.

Harwammer
15-09-2010, 16:26
Creating options to push advantages, i.e. such as panic check's(and especially damage towards BSBs) shouldn't be scoffed at, its another sting to a players bow.exactly, doing this stuff is what makes sneaky players seem lucky, its worth maximising chances to 'luck out' where possible (as long as it isn't too detrimental to the main plan) as the more times you roll a dice the more likely it is you'll eventually hit the roll you want!

CaliforniaGamer
15-09-2010, 18:14
Hellcannon + or/and Doom and Darkness + Pandemonium.

Lvl4 Tzeentch sorcerer + Lvl2 Death Sorcerer + 2 Hellcannons is a fairly rocking core build.

minionboy
15-09-2010, 18:55
I deploy my hellcannons forward and tight on my flanks, they shoot until the enemy is within 12", then they charge. Works pretty well and being unbreakable goes a long way for them.

Warwizard91
17-09-2010, 05:39
Hellcannon + or/and Doom and Darkness + Pandemonium.

Lvl4 Tzeentch sorcerer + Lvl2 Death Sorcerer + 2 Hellcannons is a fairly rocking core build.

You can't guarantee Doom and darkness with only a level two though so this could be rather difficult to make it all align.

Harwammer
17-09-2010, 08:57
You can't guarantee Doom and darkness with only a level two though so this could be rather difficult to make it all align.
True, but with a spell familiar (and considering the rules for switching out duplicate spells) you'd roll it more often than not. Besides, death has handy spells even if you don't get doom and darkness.

reddevil18
21-09-2010, 13:43
Hellcannon + or/and Doom and Darkness + Pandemonium.

Lvl4 Tzeentch sorcerer + Lvl2 Death Sorcerer + 2 Hellcannons is a fairly rocking core build.

Im sorry im currently at work and cant remember the lore of death spells but why is that so devistating?

Althwen
21-09-2010, 13:47
Im sorry im currently at work and cant remember the lore of death spells but why is that so devistating?

Doom and Darkness is -3 LD iirc and Pandaemonium prevents enemy units from using the general's LD.

Helcannon forces a panic test on -1 LD so with Doom and Darkness in play a total of -4...

SkawtheFalconer
21-09-2010, 14:19
Hellcannon + or/and Doom and Darkness + Pandemonium.

Lvl4 Tzeentch sorcerer + Lvl2 Death Sorcerer + 2 Hellcannons is a fairly rocking core build.

You're going to need Infernal Puppet if running this build. My Hellcannon killed my Level 4 last time I used it with a miscast caused by misfire. :cries:

reddevil18
21-09-2010, 14:29
Wow that does sound deadly, im so using that tatic lol.
-5 if you have the BSB with the -LD banner as well

Althwen
21-09-2010, 14:46
Yes well, I find these LD-based tactics more of a gamble. There are so many factors to take into account!
- You have to actually be able to cast Doom and Darkness
- You have to hit the unit. In other words: not scatter 10 inches or misfire.
- If using the banner, the unit has to be able to draw LoS to it.

Warwizard91
21-09-2010, 18:22
They can be difficult to get off correctly, but that is why you don't rely on it that much. Think of it as an added bonus to the destruction to come.

Hashulaman
22-09-2010, 07:15
I would not take more than one, I do not care about that suble Hellcannon+-1 ldr banner. I think its overrated. The units will huddle around a BSB and your strategy is wasted.

Frankly
22-09-2010, 08:32
I would not take more than one, I do not care about that suble Hellcannon+-1 ldr banner. I think its overrated. The units will huddle around a BSB and your strategy is wasted.

Well if your oppponents units 'huddle' around anything, then take 2 cannons. :)

So far, no-one who is for the cannon + spell + banner combo is overrating anything. Its just a tactic that can be inbuilt into any list that takes a H.Cannon without much of a fuss.

reddevil18
22-09-2010, 08:48
Hashulaman everything huddling together is even better as your more likly to hit after scatter then it just causes alot of deaths, especially if you have two :P

Lochaber
22-09-2010, 17:48
I'd just like to point out a few things that really help to boost Hellcannons on the table.

Pandaemonium: Overall, I think this is the best thing in the entire WoC book. Miscasts on any double for your enemy is bad enough, but the real gem here is taking away their characters' leadership. Those Empire detachments can huddle together all they want, it just means I'll stack hellcannon templates on top of them and get better scattering, and even with a bsb reroll, ld4 is a lot worse than ld8 (assuming LD5 base troops).

In my army right now, it's essentially a question of whether my opponent wants to cluster up to get the bsb/general on everything, in which case I just unload with the hellcannon after putting up pandaemonium. Alternately, if they spread out to try and avoid taking too many cannon deaths, I can run my mounted lvl 2 slaanesh sorcerer up behind them and be in perfect position for hellshriek. Either way, they're about to take a scary amount of panic tests on their rank-and-file's leadership, which usually turns out very poorly for them (unless you're playing skaven, in which case the whole panic thing kinda gets washed out by SiN)

LordoftheBrassThrone
05-10-2010, 10:27
The dilemna I often have is what to shoot my hellcannons at? for example in a recent battle against lizardmen i couldnt decide whether to shoot at the big block of saurus or the slaan casting speed of light on them. (in the end i clipped both and wounded the slaan and killed 3 saurus)

Althwen
05-10-2010, 10:48
Hoewever tempting it may be to lay that str 10 d6 wounds centre over a character, I almost never do. Most characters benefit from Look out sir! and in case of a slann, he probably has a Ward save that'll deflect your shot.
Hellcannons are all about punching holes in units!

sulla
05-10-2010, 18:47
Aim them at the biggest enemy unit. If you hit, you almost certainly take steadfast off that unit, basically taking them out of the game vs your blocks.