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Chiron
12-09-2010, 23:17
I have a unit of TK fast cavalry or chariots who make the Vanguard move.

Can Incantation of Urgency then be cast on them to allow them to charge or does Vanguard allow for no first turn charges of any kind?

SiNNiX
12-09-2010, 23:22
Short answer: No.

Incantation of Urgency allows you to make a normal move in your Magic Phase, allowing you to wheel, reform or even charge.

However, as per page 79 in the BRB, "Units that have made a Vanguard move cannot declare a charge in the first turn if their army goes first." Ergo, you cannot declare a charge by any means.

TheTrueSloth
12-09-2010, 23:39
However, as per page 79 in the BRB, "Units that have made a Vanguard move cannot declare a charge in the first turn if their army goes first." Ergo, you cannot declare a charge by any means.

But the TK incantation doesn't tell you you're declaring (and completing) a charge. It simply allows you to make a move equal to your movement value "that can then move you into combat and counts as if you have charged" (paraphrased).

So actually, by RAW, the TK incantation can allow a 1st turn combat - assuming your opponent is within 20".

Toodles

EDIT: Absolutely no idea on Vanhel's though, I can't recall the exact wording at all.

Chris_
13-09-2010, 00:02
But the TK incantation doesn't tell you you're declaring (and completing) a charge. It simply allows you to make a move equal to your movement value "that can then move you into combat and counts as if you have charged" (paraphrased).

So actually, by RAW, the TK incantation can allow a 1st turn combat - assuming your opponent is within 20".

Toodles

EDIT: Absolutely no idea on Vanhel's though, I can't recall the exact wording at all.No, neither allows 1st turn combat for fast cavs using vanguard move.

The TK incantation clearly states "The unit can charge an enemy and the same rules apply as for a normal charge."

SiNNiX
13-09-2010, 03:13
But the TK incantation doesn't tell you you're declaring (and completing) a charge. It simply allows you to make a move equal to your movement value "that can then move you into combat and counts as if you have charged" (paraphrased).

So actually, by RAW, the TK incantation can allow a 1st turn combat - assuming your opponent is within 20".

Toodles

EDIT: Absolutely no idea on Vanhel's though, I can't recall the exact wording at all.

You really should have your book close by, Toodles (err TheTrueSloth).

Page 35 of the Tomb King rulebook.

"The unit can immediately make its normal move, exactly like in the Movement phase... the unit can charge an enemy and the same rules apply as for a normal charge."

Page 79 of the BRB.

"Units that have made a Vanguard move cannot declare a charge in the first turn if their army goes first."

SiNNiX
13-09-2010, 03:17
By the way, TheTrueSloth, you are now either TTS or Toodles. Pick one! Typing TheTrueSloth gets old. If you want another nickname, please submit it to the Nickname Suggestion Thread (http://a6.vox.com/6a00cd970d30ae4cd500fae8c74186000b-pi).

TheTrueSloth
13-09-2010, 09:13
The TK incantation clearly states "The unit can charge an enemy and the same rules apply as for a normal charge."

Hang on a sec:

*finds old TK book, dusts it off*

No, you're right, my bad. I remembered it stated that the incantation caused them to move normally, but I assumed it was just the bog standard move "x" the unit would that could guide it into combat.

================


By the way, TheTrueSloth, you are now either TTS or Toodles. Pick one! Typing TheTrueSloth gets old. If you want another nickname, please submit it to the Nickname Suggestion Thread.

I'm just glad I didn't call myself "TheIntriguingTrueSloth" because the acronym would then be...something else :p

I might just have to go get a nickname for myself afteral. TTS or Toodles though, oooh, tough one...suggestions?

Toodles

SiNNiX
14-09-2010, 03:42
Did you atleast check out the Nickname Suggestion Thread I posted?

I'd go with Toodles. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone calls you anyway. Besides, watch Hook again and tell me you wouldn't be honored to have the name Toodles.

"IT'S SNOWING!" *slams door*

T10
14-09-2010, 07:39
I have a unit of TK fast cavalry or chariots who make the Vanguard move.

Can Incantation of Urgency then be cast on them to allow them to charge or does Vanguard allow for no first turn charges of any kind?

Spells trump rules, I believe.

-T10

Avian
14-09-2010, 08:08
Spells don't trump normal rules when the spell actually tells you that normal rules apply.

TheTrueSloth
14-09-2010, 13:09
Did you atleast check out the Nickname Suggestion Thread I posted?

I'm trying to but my PC seems to delight in being a pain in the backside and not letting me use the internet properly - I've only just been able to get on Warseer, yet alone browse threads or start posting. To the Nickname Suggestion Thread!

*whoosh*

EDIT: Just clicked on the link you put...wow, just wow...if my skin were that colour, I'd be rather worried about my circulation :p


I'd go with Toodles. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone calls you anyway. Besides, watch Hook again and tell me you wouldn't be honored to have the name Toodles.

"IT'S SNOWING!" *slams door*

Lol, good point, Toodles it is then! :D


Spells don't trump normal rules when the spell actually tells you that normal rules apply.

+1. I have to admit, I screwed up on my recall for the Incantation.

What's the wording for Vanhel's Danse Macabre though (no VC AB at all on this one)?

Toodles

Macmiel
14-09-2010, 13:51
Ok, so You cannot use "pushing" spells to get Your Vanguard/Scouting units into combat in first turn if You start.

What's if this "pushing" spell actually compels You to move certain amount of inches and if You touch enemy unit then it counts as charge? There are actually two spells of that kind:
1. WAAAGH! from Spells of the big Waaagh!
2. The call of the Hunt from Lore of Athel Loren
Both of this spells tells You that You must roll 2D6 - this is range of Your move and if it it takes You to enemy then it counts as charge.

Chris_
15-09-2010, 00:16
Ok, so You cannot use "pushing" spells to get Your Vanguard/Scouting units into combat in first turn if You start.

What's if this "pushing" spell actually compels You to move certain amount of inches and if You touch enemy unit then it counts as charge? There are actually two spells of that kind:
1. WAAAGH! from Spells of the big Waaagh!
2. The call of the Hunt from Lore of Athel Loren
Both of this spells tells You that You must roll 2D6 - this is range of Your move and if it it takes You to enemy then it counts as charge.Since the spells we have discussed in this topic actually states the normal rules (as per the BRB) apply then they cannot charge. But the examples you bring up are of the kind where AB trumps the BRB so they are allowed to charge! (also the vanguard rule states you can't declare a charge if you go first, here they never declare, it just counts as one if they reach an enemy)

havoc626
15-09-2010, 11:49
Since the spells we have discussed in this topic actually states the normal rules (as per the BRB) apply then they cannot charge. But the examples you bring up are of the kind where AB trumps the BRB so they are allowed to charge! (also the vanguard rule states you can't declare a charge if you go first, here they never declare, it just counts as one if they reach an enemy)

I'd second this. As the special movement says nothing about needing to declare a charge, and the vanguard only restricts being able to declare a charge, then it should be allowed.

Unless FAQ'd, RAW allows for this to happen. RAI, on the other hand, is a different matter.

SiNNiX
16-09-2010, 05:13
I'd second this. As the special movement says nothing about needing to declare a charge, and the vanguard only restricts being able to declare a charge, then it should be allowed.

Unless FAQ'd, RAW allows for this to happen. RAI, on the other hand, is a different matter.

No, RAW dictates that they cannot declare a charge. I guess I'll post this again.

"The unit can immediately make its normal move, exactly like in the Movement phase... the unit can charge an enemy and the same rules apply as for a normal charge."

The affected unit executes its own Movement phase exactly as it would in the normal Movement phase. It can also charge and all of the rules for charges apply. In order to charge an opponent, per the rules, you must first declare a charge. Due to the Vanguard special rule, you may not declare a charge if you go first.

SiNNiX
16-09-2010, 05:16
also the vanguard rule states you can't declare a charge if you go first, here they never declare, it just counts as one if they reach an enemy

Perfect! This should really drill the rules home to you guys:

In the BRB (don't have it with me so I can't site a page right now, but maybe I'll edit this when I get home and put an exact quote from the book), it says that units may never move into combat, but must always declare a charge. Units may never enter combat unless they declare a charge first or someone declares a charge against them.

Synnister
16-09-2010, 05:25
No, RAW dictates that they cannot declare a charge. I guess I'll post this again.

"The unit can immediately make its normal move, exactly like in the Movement phase... the unit can charge an enemy and the same rules apply as for a normal charge."

The affected unit executes its own Movement phase exactly as it would in the normal Movement phase. It can also charge and all of the rules for charges apply. In order to charge an opponent, per the rules, you must first declare a charge. Due to the Vanguard special rule, you may not declare a charge if you go first.

He was talking about the 2 spells that say you move forward random distance and charge if you contact an enemy. Pretty sure the Incantation of Urgency thing has been settled. Not sure about Van Hels, haven't looked at the verbiage yet.

To answer the question about the random movement spells, yes you'd be able to charge first turn since you don't declare your charge.

Chris_
16-09-2010, 05:29
Perfect! This should really drill the rules home to you guys:

In the BRB (don't have it with me so I can't site a page right now, but maybe I'll edit this when I get home and put an exact quote from the book), it says that units may never move into combat, but must always declare a charge. Units may never enter combat unless they declare a charge first or someone declares a charge against them.The last part is true, missed that. Then Waagh! and similar spells where it is not clearly stated that the normal rules for a charge apply get to charge anyway as AB trumps BRB. If this isn't FAQed it is that simple.

SiNNiX
16-09-2010, 05:33
I've said it before and I'll say it again... I really need to start reading before I start typing... had no idea we had moved away from the TK question!

Chris_
16-09-2010, 05:37
Other armies and examples are fine because it says they may move into close combat, and as you said, AB trumps BRB. However, it does not specify in the TK AB that you may simply move into combat using this spell. It says you may move just like you would in the Movement phase, and charge just like you would in the Movement phase. To charge just like you would in the Movement phase, you must first declare a charge.If you actually read the entire thread you would see this question has already been answered but thanks for repeating it again.

Edit: Lol, ninja'ed :P Stop erasing stuff ;)

SiNNiX
16-09-2010, 05:38
If you actually read the entire thread you would see this question has already been answered but thanks for repeating it again.

Edit: Lol, ninja'ed :P Stop erasing stuff ;)

Man, you just had to read my post before I read yours. You just had to.

SiNNiX
16-09-2010, 05:38
If you actually read the entire thread you would see this question has already been answered but thanks for repeating it again.

Edit: Lol, ninja'ed :P Stop erasing stuff ;)

We just ninja'd each other like six times...

Chris_
16-09-2010, 05:42
We just ninja'd each other like six times...
Hehe, awesome...