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Mangobreeder
13-09-2010, 11:36
Quick Question, what happens if the burning head hits a unit which in engaged in CC?

This came up yesterday, and my opponent claimed i could not cast it as i can not target a unit in CC. however there was a viable unengaged unit right infront of my mage.


Mage --the burning head-----> Unegaged ork unit ------> Enaged ork unit

My opponent argued that i could not cast "the burning head" at the unengaged unit even though it was a viable target, as i knew it would hit the orcs in combat behind who where not a viable target and it consituted targeting that unit.

I disagreed but let it slide. my opnion is can target the ork unit in front as its a viable target, and if it hits orks behind then thats just the way it is, and still perfectly legal

whats the right approach

Atrahasis
13-09-2010, 11:55
Direct damage templates (which the Burning Head is, as it is resolved as a cannonball, and cannonballs are templates) cannot be placed such that they affect units in combat.

Ultimate Life Form
13-09-2010, 11:57
This was cause for eternal strife in 7th Edition and hasn't really been resolved in 8th.

Since you do not target anything but merely draw a line, there are also no targetting restrictions obviously, but that... will be disputed again, and again, and again...

But as templates cannot touch close combat, it seems the possibility is out.

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2010, 13:08
This is all covered by checking what a direct damage spell is a allowed to do in the magic section of the rulebook.

Mangobreeder
13-09-2010, 13:29
This is all covered by checking what a direct damage spell is a allowed to do in the magic section of the rulebook.

thanks for you helpfull post

the point of the post is that when the burning head is cast on the first unit, it meets all of the requirements for caasting a direct damage spell.

i.e the Targeted unit is not in close combat. etc.

however subsequently the spell hits a engaged unit, although it has never been targeted.

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2010, 13:34
And that's not what the rules in the rulebook say.

So actually read the rule before posting an angry response please.

kaulem
13-09-2010, 14:02
@theunwanted... Could you enlighten us thread readers as to what to rules state? We dont all carry the rule book with us.

Thx

Atrahasis
13-09-2010, 14:42
...that direct damage spells cannot be cast to affect units in combat.

Mangobreeder
13-09-2010, 14:54
...that direct damage spells cannot be cast to affect units in combat.

I can find the section where it says i cant target a unit in CC,

can you provide me with the page ref where it says it cant be cast to affect units in close combat?

The situation is the spell is targeted at an un-engaged unit and as a consequence it hits a engaged unit. so the spell satisfies all casting criteria. i.e not cast at a unit in CC, etc.

Thanks

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2010, 19:49
Page 31, in the magic section, under direct damage spells.

Mangobreeder
13-09-2010, 21:01
Page 31, in the magic section, under direct damage spells.

I believe you are incorrect. That passage is quite explicit when it mentions templates, the burning head does not use a template

Reading the rule book in the situation outlined above lets look at the criteria for being able to cast

1) Lie in the wizards forward arc - Check
2) LOS? - Not required, but Check
3) In Range - Check
4) Unit being targeted not in CC - Check the wizard is targeting the first unit.

Reading the direct damage section
does not apply, burning head is not a template spell

With this in mind the spell can be cast by the rules

Mangobreeder
13-09-2010, 21:11
Page 31, in the magic section, under direct damage spells.

I believe you are incorrect. That passage is quite explicit when it mentions templates, the burning head does not use a template

Reading the rule book in the situation outlined above lets look at the criteria for being able to cast

1) Lie in the wizards forward arc - Check
2) LOS? - Not required, but Check
3) In Range - Check
4) Unit being targeted not in CC - Check the wizard is targeting the first unit.

Reading the direct damage section
does not apply, burning head is not a template spell

With this in mind the spell can be cast by the rules

Citadel97501
13-09-2010, 22:19
The Burning Head, is a Direct Damage spell, and counts as a template weapon since it "Determines as for a bouncing cannon ball", and the line of damage caused by cannon balls counts as a template weapon, therefore you could not cast the Burning Head since it will hit a unit in CC.

Mangobreeder
14-09-2010, 08:49
The Burning Head, is a Direct Damage spell, and counts as a template weapon since it "Determines as for a bouncing cannon ball", and the line of damage caused by cannon balls counts as a template weapon, therefore you could not cast the Burning Head since it will hit a unit in CC.

That is you interperation, the rules for the burning head do not mention either treat as a cannon or use or treat as a template.

so we are back to square one

Atrahasis
14-09-2010, 08:55
The rules for Burning Head do indeed say to resolve the hits like a cannon.

Why ask a question if you're just going to defend your (incorrect) preconception of the way it works to the hilt?

knightime98
14-09-2010, 09:08
GW's very poorly written spell as is with so much stuff.

Quite simple compromise and/or solution for this...
The Burning Head goes off and affects said unit that is targeted.
However, it will NOT affect the unit behind in combat (as it is implied in the rules).
It can be fluffy that the wizard can control the arc in such a manner as to NOT hit his own friendly guys who are engaged in combat.

That's the way, I'd play it.

Right, Wrong or indifferent... It is a game.. so play on!

theunwantedbeing
14-09-2010, 09:31
Page 492
-Each model in the way(determined as for a bouncing cannonball)

Page 113
-The bounce of a cannonball is treated exactly like a special kind of template

Page 31
-Sometimes a direct damage spell will use a template to determine which models are hit. When this happens, the template cannot be place din such a way that it touches friendly units or enemy units that are in close combat

PeG
14-09-2010, 09:31
I agree that the rules seem rather clear in that you cant cast burning head in this situation although I also agree that knighttime98s solution is rather nice as well.

Mangobreeder
14-09-2010, 09:40
i stand corrected :) missed the treated as a canon ball line

the way i would have played it is allow it to be cast though the first unit then the spell stops at the unit in CC jult like knight time.

frapermax
14-09-2010, 16:39
So, following the same logic:
A cannon cannot target my monster if another unit in combat is right (1") behind it, because the ball could go through and hit that combat? (Well you could actually nominate a point 18 inch in front, but no closer)
That would give some nice places to put down a character or monster, relatively safe from some warmachines...
just a question, not trying to bend your precious raw rules here...
fpm

Atrahasis
14-09-2010, 17:40
The cannon rules explicitly state exactly that, so yes, you're correct.