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Claudio
16-09-2010, 14:05
Could there be a SM chapter that makes use of cam? Instead of going to the battle with shiny brigth colors? I mean they do have a chapter color but when they go to fight they paint their armours and stuff depending on the battlefield.

Zweischneid
16-09-2010, 14:15
Raptors (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raptors_(Chapter)) are probably the next best thing.

They used to be yellow-&-blue but got "kinda-camo" drab-green with the Forgeworld book. You might easily interpret that as Raptors still wearing yellow-&-blue on "ceremonial" outings I'd assume. Not sure what modelling/painting implication you had in mind.

MrSatan
16-09-2010, 14:20
Marines used to use camo in pictures from the RT era. Google around you may find some. I expect IA:the badad war to have some too.

This was before the whole 'display yout chapter colours with pride spiel we have now

Claudio
16-09-2010, 14:56
Could there still be a chapter that prefers to use camo paint on their armours?

MrSatan
16-09-2010, 14:57
Marines used to use camo in pictures from the RT era. Google around you may find some. I expect IA:the badad war to have some too.

This was before the whole 'display yout chapter colours with pride spiel we have now

Leftenant Gashrog
16-09-2010, 15:01
Raptors (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raptors_(Chapter)) are probably the next best thing.
They used to be yellow-&-blue but got "kinda-camo" drab-green with the Forgeworld book.

Actually they were greenified in White Dwarf back during the 3rd Armageddon War campaign, Imperial Armour Volume 3 has the Raptors using green armour during the desert war on Taros, although Imperial Armour volume 2 actually had a desert camo Raptors rhino (tho thats not the same as on marines armour, back in RT it was common to depict red armoured chapters wearing red armour but using camouflaged or codex grey vehicles).


This was before the whole 'display yout chapter colours with pride spiel we have now
Actually that dated back to RT too - the problem was they blew it out of all proportions (same with the basic repainting armour offending the machine spirit thing - in the original mention of that it was two squads of suits that were repainted and only one suit had a problem). The 4th edition traits system was nice since it showed that most chapters were in the middle ground with chapters swinging both ways: some would allow infiltrating (ie camo'd) marines whilst others wouldn't even let the scouts go sneaking.

Really I think this discussion is a few weeks premature, since the biggest source for it will be Imperial Armour 9: they'll either show us a decent selection of chapters in updated camo schemes which will be a big thumbs, or retcon them out of existance which will be a big thumbs down.

baphomael
16-09-2010, 15:24
Marines used to use camo in pictures from the RT era. Google around you may find some. I expect IA:the badad war to have some too.

This was before the whole 'display yout chapter colours with pride spiel we have now

Course, thats from the days when Marines themselves were fundamentally different.

Col. Tartleton
16-09-2010, 16:20
My stance is they do and that their chapter colors are parade (and thus most suitable in game because it fits every environment equally badly and looks best). From my understanding they just can't cover over the chapter symbol without dishonoring the suit, but I'm sure they can keep their markings on using camo colors. I'm sure they have a serf just to repaint their armor. Its like Regimental heraldry for the US Military are brightly colored but they portray them in the camo scheme on the combat wear.

Makiaveli
16-09-2010, 16:36
My stance is they do and that their chapter colors are parade (and thus most suitable in game because it fits every environment equally badly and looks best). From my understanding they just can't cover over the chapter symbol without dishonoring the suit, but I'm sure they can keep their markings on using camo colors. I'm sure they have a serf just to repaint their armor. Its like Regimental heraldry for the US Military are brightly colored but they portray them in the camo scheme on the combat wear.

I thought there whole idea was they believed their own hype (ie Greatest Warriors Evah!!!!) and thus marched out onto the field in full color scheme to strike fear into their opponents. Of course when Brother Bob catches a missile upside the head, they then duck behind a wall. ;)

Aliarzathanil
16-09-2010, 16:54
I think if you scream down through the sky, slam into the dirt, blow explosive hatches and run our firing rapid-fire rocket launchers screaming "For the Emperor!" as loud as three lungs and a helmet voxcaster allow, rubbing a bit of green on your kit is hardly going to be adequate.

Scouts use camo, but marines, given their preferred tactics wouldn't gain much. Rhinos, drop pods, bikes, and jump packs are never portrayed as overly stealth means of conveyance . Painted camo also assumes the sensory organs of your adversary work like ours. Stealth may be better accomplished by heat shielding (a tall older when you have a reactor on your back). Just my take on it.

Now I could see marines adopting camo in part or fully in a more ritual manner. Perhaps the warrior culture they recruit from has used a specific pattern since before the great crusade and the marine temporarily adopt is to show solidarity when they defend the planet and later adopt it permanently.

Col. Dash
16-09-2010, 16:56
Sorry if most will disagree, but the brightly colored armor is for parade and shipboard duty. For any extended campaign marines are going to camo their armor. They dont live hundreds of years in combat by being stupid. There is mention of codex approved color schemes and anything pre-2nd edition has pics of it. I have not seen anything in recent years to counter this general thought process. There might be a few chapters who have been hit on the head a few too many times and think its a great idea to wear bright yellow armor on a grey and brown battlefield, but for the most part, if marines have time to prepare or are going to be there awhile playing a guerrilla war(ie. Raven Guard) they will camo up.

Zweischneid
16-09-2010, 17:04
but for the most part, if marines have time to prepare or are going to be there awhile playing a guerrilla war(ie. Raven Guard) they will camo up.

Raven Guard? You mean the guys who are all black except for the white helmets of the squad leaders and officers?

Also, Marines don't do guerilla warfare. Guerilla warfare means hiding in a (at least partially supportive) civilian population. You cannot do that with power-armour no matter how much camo you use. For Guerilla warfare, they'd need to ditch the armour altogether and blend into the populace (which, even without armour, is arguably impossible for most Space Marines).

Lupe
16-09-2010, 17:40
Well, Space Marines are designed to stand out. They can take so much more punishment than the other Imperium troops, that it sorta makes sense for them to be visible, to give the enemy something to shoot at, while the guardsmen drown them under a tide of lasfire.

Makiaveli
16-09-2010, 18:58
Sorry if most will disagree, but the brightly colored armor is for parade and shipboard duty. For any extended campaign marines are going to camo their armor. They dont live hundreds of years in combat by being stupid. There is mention of codex approved color schemes and anything pre-2nd edition has pics of it. I have not seen anything in recent years to counter this general thought process. There might be a few chapters who have been hit on the head a few too many times and think its a great idea to wear bright yellow armor on a grey and brown battlefield, but for the most part, if marines have time to prepare or are going to be there awhile playing a guerrilla war(ie. Raven Guard) they will camo up.

Isn't that the point of the Raven Guard? That they use tactics and strategies, IE camo and guerrilla warfare, as opposed to most chapters who just show up and kick your teeth down your throat or die trying?

Also, you used the word "stupid". Isn't alot of the things the Imperium does stupid from a efficiency point of view? Again, isn't that the point? They Space Marines, not a modern day army with high tech toys. Even the Guard is the old WWI/WWII type armies. They are not meant to teach the players proper tactics etc, but to simulate a Sci-Fi fantasy army.

cavatica76
16-09-2010, 19:38
Camouflage is the colour of fear. A space Marine has no need to hide from his enemies.

marv335
16-09-2010, 19:43
Space Marines are Shock Troops.
They want you to see them coming, because psychological warfare is important too.
It's the lesson of Plataea.

Clockwork-Knight
16-09-2010, 19:56
Space Marines can and will have to fight a numerically superior enemy alone without any other imperial support who can afford losses, whereas astartes cannot (like Orks).
In that time, I would find it more than reasonable that space marines would use camouflage and try hiding, then striking quickly.

What's the point of having every space marine train as a scout for almost a 100 years, when they don't use those skills later anyway?

Nah, Space Marines can and will know how to hide. There is no shame to attack from the darkness. In the end, Astartes are killers who would immediately execute an entire kindergarten class in the name of the Emperor, it it suits their plans.

MEcorp
16-09-2010, 20:18
Marines are weapons of shock and awe. Whats more terrifying than a 7' armoured giant covered in badges of glory and victory standing over the corpse of someone it just tore in half with its hands? Not much, i'd say. Marines aren't designed for the same kind of warfare as camo, using them in this way is extremely wasteful. Swoop in, break the centre, kill the commanders, and leave. The rest of it's the Guards problem.

Not to mention that it would be dam hard for a marines to hide anyway (given their size) regardless of how their painted.

Clockwork-Knight
16-09-2010, 23:01
Many of their enemies aren't frightened by astartes (like orks, crazed chaos cultists, soulless necrons, tyranids, eldar aspect warriors, kroot mercenaries and more).

Also, they have high-technology armor that makes them able to survive three months in space. It's rather unlikely if their armor doesn't help them with sneaking around, after they sneaked around for 100 years before finally receiving the last implants to become the genetic sons of the primarchs.

Kage2020
16-09-2010, 23:44
Well, if you believe what the 'fluff' says on the matter. Like most things in the canon, though, as soon as you engage the 'ole grey matter things begin to... get squiffy. :D

Kage

FabricatorGeneralMike
17-09-2010, 00:57
I would say some do, some don't. The Executioners have a bluey-grey cammeo patteren. With the new IA book comming out soon I guess we will see wont we?

zoodog
17-09-2010, 01:42
Many of their enemies aren't frightened by astartes (like orks, crazed chaos cultists, soulless necrons, tyranids, eldar aspect warriors, kroot mercenaries and more).

The majority of their engagements however likely take place against traitor/ renegade guard who may be amazingly fearful of the "angels of death" come to judge them.

That said they likely due make use of camo depending on the operation.

Polaria
17-09-2010, 06:00
Well, if you believe what the 'fluff' says on the matter. Like most things in the canon, though, as soon as you engage the 'ole grey matter things begin to... get squiffy. :D

Kage

Fluff doesn't say Space Marines can't use cover saves, does it? Besides, lets think about the battle-fields of 40K as they are typically described: They are basically huge, shot-up fields of craters and debris where thousands upon thousands march to their deaths. They are basically places like Flanders and Verdun in WWI. In that kind of battle fields the best camouflage is simply brownish-grey mud... but don't worry, due to all the artillery it doesn't really matter what color your power armor is, its going to be covered with soot and mud in few hours anyway.

My usual explanation is that Space Marines are like medieval knights. Medieval Knights were men who knew more abour outdoorsmanship that most modern men ever have. They surely knew that dressing down in grey and brown rags was not only cheaper but would make you less visible. Most of the time they didn't. Why? First of all, nature of warfare didn't require stealth. It required the knights to be clearly visible to their own troops to encourage and lead them forward. Yes, it also made them good targets for enemy archers. Yes, many of them were killed by enemy archers. They still thought the moral effect was worth it. When situation did require stealth there are many examples knights did cover their shields and tabards with cloth, put weaponblack into blades and even painted the horses. Most of the time the nature of warfare just had little or no use for stealthiness. In marines case its clear scouts need camo-cloaks but when you announce your arrival by orbital bombardment and drop pods wading into the ground its far less usefull.

There is always people who go ballistic if they are suggested marine wear camo because the models are always painted bright colors... But you can always hit them with the Scorpion argument. Eldar Striking Scorpions have power armor. They are not marines. They can sneak around. Yet, they are always depicted green. How do they sneak in snow or sand or even typical city? Either they paint the armors, cover the armors somehow or the power armor does more than just looks funny.

Angelust
17-09-2010, 06:51
What Polaria said.

It seems like on most battle fields Astartes are there to boost morale of the guardsmen as much as they are there to own face.

When reading BL fluff, a lot of the struggle for both Chaos worshipers and IG alike is the problem of morale, inspiration, and fear/dread. In a world of nauseating glyphs, stomach churning chants, gaudy imperial gold, and cringing when you even hear the name of the Emperor, Space Marines typically WANT to be seen, both by their own troops, and by their enemies. Their use on the battle field may be comparable to twice their number in IG special forces (or whatever), but Storm Troopers don't inspire thousands of nervous Guardsmen to throw their lives away for justice, nor do they make it far more likely that a chaos regiment will break morale and retreat after seeing a big shiny red angel rip the head off their commander.

To me, Space Marines are kind of like squads of miniature saints: they may be pretty nasty in a fight, but they're most useful for rallying the men and scaring the **** out of the enemy.

Lt.DustyMillar
17-09-2010, 07:17
I would say yes as camo is an important tool, with three main uses, depending on the type of camo.

basic camo is not designed to completely hide a person, but to blur their image and outline enough to stop an enemy getting a clean shot at them. Which is great in big open battles as it allows you to close with the enemy.

full camo like the camo cloaks are useful. People have mentioned the fear it would cause within an enemy to see a sqaud of marines in bright colours closing on them. Now think about the effect it would have if a 10 marines just appeared in your lines. There would be mass panic and disruption.

Finally area camo this is best described as the camo netting to hide positions from long range spotters and from the air/orbit. This can include the use of jammers to block sensors of all types. Marines would find this useful as it allows for the element of surprise in ambushes, or traps and hides their numbers before an attack.

Marines are the best trained troops the imperium can field, forged in the battles of 41k years of human battle, they will use every means possible to get their job done as failure is not something they live with well.

Hunger
17-09-2010, 13:08
Could there be a SM chapter that makes use of cam? Instead of going to the battle with shiny brigth colors?

Sure - but you can't see them because they're so well hidden.

On a related WHFB note, I used to use an empty base with two footprint shaped depressions in the textured sand to represent Deathmaster Sniktch while he was invisible. That was a while back (3rd edition?), and I'm not sure if he comes with that magic item anymore - I think it was called the Cloak Of Shadows?

http://www.hardformat.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/belfast-1.jpg

Aiwass
17-09-2010, 14:07
But SM ATSKNF. They see themselves like Angels of Death. Is not like modern warfare, when camo is a must. Sure that they repaint his armour in a long term campaigns, but I think they don't in surgical* operations. Usually (in 2nd ed) they repaint the armor in a basic colour without markings.

Is possible that some chapters make use of camo for special pourposes (specially scouting) but I really don't think that chapters like Black Templars, Dark/Blood Angels, Iron Hands, and so on even think about the use of camo in their armors.

Is true that bak in RT era the Astartes make use of camo, but if we go back, then go full back, and take the speaking Emperor, Crimson Fist as first founding Legion, black Dark Angels and so on.

*Short butchers call duration.

Polaria
17-09-2010, 15:27
You can't really compare 40K warfare with modern one since they are different in so many ways. For example in modern battlefield if one guy wears a bright red armor and the others wear camo everyone will shoot the red guy first and then proceed to kill the other. So its not really an effective tactic.

In 40K if a red power armor is advancing along with hundred imperial guardsmen everyone will fire at the red power armor... just to see the lasers and bullets bounce off while the red monster comes closer and closer...

For most modern battle-tanks the camo makes very little difference. Any weapon strong enough to penetrate it is usually aimed with thermal sight and in thermal the tanks shows as a bright white against the matt grey background anyway. It wouldn't make a damn difference if they were painted red.

Polaria
17-09-2010, 15:28
You can't really compare 40K warfare with modern one since they are different in so many ways. For example in modern battlefield if one guy wears a bright red armor and the others wear camo everyone will shoot the red guy first and then proceed to kill the other. So its not really an effective tactic.

In 40K if a red power armor is advancing along with hundred imperial guardsmen everyone will fire at the red power armor... just to see the lasers and bullets bounce off while the red monster comes closer and closer...

For most modern battle-tanks the camo makes very little difference. Any weapon strong enough to penetrate it is usually aimed with thermal sight and in thermal the tanks shows as a bright white against the matt grey background anyway. It wouldn't make a damn difference if they were painted red.

cavatica76
17-09-2010, 16:09
Camouflage is the colour of fear! A Space Marine has no need to hide from his enemies.

Polaria
17-09-2010, 16:22
Another interesting thing regarding the nature of warfare popped into mind. A world is under Tyranid attack and Space Marines are deployed there. Their first mission is to protect governor so that the planetary governemnt can continue to function under 'nid assault. They are supposed to be ready in their drop pods 45 minutes after exiting warp.

Now, the problem is warp. They have no way of knowing how long exactly they have been in warp before they come out. Also in warp they are incommunicado so they do not know how the battle has progressed on the planet. They have two preliminary targets: the equivalent of Washington DC and the equivalent of Crystal Mountain. So its either desert or city in temperate zone. What is worse is they will be arriving during planetary equivalent of december... maybe. So there might be snow on ground or not. On top of this they don't know hom much tyranid organisms have changed the landscape. So whatever color-scheme they choose it will likely turn out to be wrong and they don't have time to repaint everything ready in 45 minutes anyway...

Col. Dash
17-09-2010, 18:46
Thus the multiple comments of extended campaign. For quick actions and scrambles into the unknown, probably they will not have time to camo up. If they know they are going to be there awhile it becomes a different story.

Polaria, actually even today most former red blok states and 3rd world countries still mostly have mark 1 eyeball scopes. It is mostly NATO and more advanced countries with widespread thermal and night vision scope use.

TheRedAngel
17-09-2010, 21:41
As Dash already mentioned there are standard camouflage patterns in the Codex Astartes, probably for some reason.
Don't know if I remember correctly but hasn't one of the IA books also a SM tank in camo? Don't have the book at hand unfortunately...

On the other hand, of the scouting servoarmoured marines that come to mind the DA Ravenwing don't seem to ever use camo. But that might be due to riding around on bikes etc all the time which s*** at hiding anyway.

Lord Lorne Walkier
17-09-2010, 22:20
Camouflage is the colour of fear! A Space Marine has no need to hide from his enemies.

Camouflage is the color of Cowardice, not fear. Yellow is the color of fear.....

Astartes have no need for the protection Camouflage offers. the Emperor protects and faith in HIM is their shield.

Polaria
18-09-2010, 06:26
Polaria, actually even today most former red blok states and 3rd world countries still mostly have mark 1 eyeball scopes. It is mostly NATO and more advanced countries with widespread thermal and night vision scope use.

I don't know if you've heard but Warsaw Pact has been disbanded a few decades ago... There is no red blok anymore :p

Anyway, what you say holds true for infantry weapons but MBTs don't care much about machinegun or sniper rifle no matter how its aimed... Its anti-tank missiles and other MBTs they fear and even 30 year old anti-tank missiles and oldie tanks made in 60's have thermal or IR sights.

cavatica76
18-09-2010, 08:13
Camouflage is the color of Cowardice, not fear. Yellow is the color of fear.....

Astartes have no need for the protection Camouflage offers. the Emperor protects and faith in HIM is their shield.


Brown is the colour of fear ;)

"Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, 'I am proud to live - I am proud to die.'"
-Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions (Warhammer 40,000 Compendium, p84)

Hedgehobbit
18-09-2010, 15:56
"Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, 'I am proud to live - I am proud to die.'"
-Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions (Warhammer 40,000 Compendium, p84)
Which is funny because in the same book is a picture of a camoflaged Red Scorpion Land Raider

http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx339/Hedgehobbit/CammoLandRaiders.jpg

Here are some pictures of cammoflaged space marines from the Badab Wars
http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx339/Hedgehobbit/CammoMarines.jpg
http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx339/Hedgehobbit/CammoMarines2.jpg

Col. Dash
18-09-2010, 16:13
I said former red block. And most of them are still using the same crap they had then.

As of 10 years ago Nato had the majority of thermals in use. T72s had an extremely primitive version and that wasnt standard in all models. I think newer T80+s use thermal as standard but aside from Russia and the Ukrane, I am noy aware of them exporting them. T72s are still the standard red tank. China last time I heard was using T72s as their MBT and they go for quantity over quality every time. Wouldnt be surprised if they didnt start upgrading already. But the real threats(near future or current hot spots) in the world do not currently use thermals, North Korea with its single company of T72s(because thats all they can afford), Iran, Pakistan, none of these have thermals in widespread use.
This all said, I dont see a large scale land battles happening in the near future. China barely has a navy so they cannot invade, and we have no real reason to go there. Russia cant afford to invade anyone, and again, we have no reason to go there. Contrary to Chavez, we have no intention or plans of invading Venesuala and even if we did, they are using old style T72s and only a few of them.

Kage2020
18-09-2010, 18:50
My usual explanation is that Space Marines are like medieval knights.
And there's the mistake... or at least where 40k seems to be coming from. It's one of the reasons that I frequently come back to the "40kFantasy" premise. It's like 40k that makes sense and leaves the fun sci-fi stuff in its own camp. :D

Kage

Tishr
18-09-2010, 19:26
This is 40k...pretty much every factions turned the majority of their brain cells off centuries ago, so honestly seems a bit much to expect them do do even vaguely smart things.

Hedgehobbit
18-09-2010, 20:19
"Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, 'I am proud to live - I am proud to die.'"
-Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions (Warhammer 40,000 Compendium, p84)
In that very same book is a picture of a camoflaged Red Scorpion Land Raider! Actually, that book has tons of cammo pictures. There is even one picture of some covert Space Marines about to ambush some orks. How do I know they are covert? One of the Space Marines has a back banner that says COVERT on it.

The Orange
18-09-2010, 22:59
I believe it depends on the chapter. Rogal Dorn (and his chapter the Imperial Fists) IIRC preferred to wear their colors into battle proudly announcing their presence, using it as a terror weapon or shock factor etc. Other chapters I'm sure did/do see the benefits of camouflage and use it when necessary.

spetswalshe
18-09-2010, 23:03
I would imagine a Marine has access to spray paint. It isn't hard to imagine an all-over-tan spray booth in the Battle Barge; kind of like communal showers but for people who don't get out of their armour. A particularly suave maverick might slip the Techmarine a few commissary tokens to get some fancy decal or racing stripes in time for shore leave.

While shock-and-awe blitzkrieg tactics are a big part of the Marine experience, they're designed to be utterly adaptable; a unit of troops incapable of ambushes and suchlike aren't going to be much good. Imagine a Blood Angel lying in wait to ambush a convoy in deep snow; his training means he lie unmoving for weeks, but it isn't much cop if his body heat melts any snow that forms on him. A quick dust of Skull White will mean the difference between a success and an embarrassing failure ("Arch-Heretic, there is a Space Marine at five thousand yards! He has spotted us and begun waving his fist! Taking immediate action; we will drive round in a circle until he gets tired!"). There is the fact that, theologically speaking, a Marine might get uppity at the idea of entirely covering his Chapter colours, like Deathwatchers do, but surely the armour will understand.

KingDeath
18-09-2010, 23:57
Well, i personaly see very little reason for camouflage. I mean, your average Space Marine operation will consist of a quick but extremely brutal drop pod/ thunderhawk assault which is neither stealthy nor quiet. The Marines drop in, kill everything in sight and retreat before the enemy knows what happened.

For the sneaky stuff they can use their camouflaged scouts.

FabricatorGeneralMike
19-09-2010, 02:43
In that very same book is a picture of a camoflaged Red Scorpion Land Raider! Actually, that book has tons of cammo pictures. There is even one picture of some covert Space Marines about to ambush some orks. How do I know they are covert? One of the Space Marines has a back banner that says COVERT on it.


I always loved that pic of the Space Wolves about to ambush the orkies. It's a oldie but goodie.

I really think it would depend on the chapter involved I can't see any of the older chapters using it. Maybe some of the younger chapters ( a few thousand years old) would use it as their traditions arn't as old.

Remember folks its 40K, when in doubt use the rule of cool. How does Marine Armour work? It just does. There are all kinds of; ZPM's, handwaviums, hell SM's have small fusion reactors and atomic piles on their backs.

Aiwass
19-09-2010, 08:10
Actually SM armor is powered by solar cells.

Tishr
19-09-2010, 13:27
Odd, everything I've ever read on Space Marines says their powered by fusion cells. Regardless as FGM said, this is 40k it literally lives and breaths rule of cool and well brightly armored guys charging out for cover (some how being infiltrated) is cool.

NightAngel
19-09-2010, 20:31
Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

Now back to the lair. :evilgrin:

Askil the Undecided
19-09-2010, 20:43
To ultimately kill the "custom camo paint scheme" recall this quote.

"The warriors who fight are given the honour of painting their armour black (to show their service to the Emperor), while leaving one shoulder pad with the original insignia of the Chapter from which the marine came. Although the armour is painted black, it is never all painted black as this action would dishonour the armour's Machine Spirit."

If repainting you armour in honour of service of the Emperor('s Inquisition) doesn't allow one to stop sporting your chapter's bright colours loud and proud then the local weather and flora aren't going to get very far are they?

Kage2020
19-09-2010, 20:58
Actually SM armor is powered by solar cells.
If you're smoking crack, which frequently the game developers sometimes seem to be doing. Admittedly, the original "beakie diagram" did refer to "armoured solar panels" and "solar converter 6 cell charger." Given their surface area, though, it is unlikely that they would do anything but help to recharge batteries in case of critical failure of the "stacked atomic chain" reactor.

YMMV, of course. :D

Kage

FabricatorGeneralMike
19-09-2010, 23:28
To ultimately kill the "custom camo paint scheme" recall this quote.

"The warriors who fight are given the honour of painting their armour black (to show their service to the Emperor), while leaving one shoulder pad with the original insignia of the Chapter from which the marine came. Although the armour is painted black, it is never all painted black as this action would dishonour the armour's Machine Spirit."

If repainting you armour in honour of service of the Emperor('s Inquisition) doesn't allow one to stop sporting your chapter's bright colours loud and proud then the local weather and flora aren't going to get very far are they?

Well if the camo paint scheme didn't cover the chapter symbol then you wouldn't be offending the armours machine spirit eh?? ;)

I also remember the story of the BA termies who where teleporting down to a planet, and one of them had a termie suit borrowed from the Ultrablingers and everytime the UM colours had been covered the suits wearer had died. Eventually the techs gave up trying to perswade the suits wearers to repaint it because the suit knew it was only borrowed.

This has nothing to do with camo patterens, but still gives a little insight into PA. I still think some chapters would use approved camo schemes just making shure not to offend the suits machine spirit.

Askil the Undecided
19-09-2010, 23:52
Well if the camo paint scheme didn't cover the chapter symbol then you wouldn't be offending the armours machine spirit eh?? ;)

I also remember the story of the BA termies who where teleporting down to a planet, and one of them had a termie suit borrowed from the Ultrablingers and everytime the UM colours had been covered the suits wearer had died. Eventually the techs gave up trying to perswade the suits wearers to repaint it because the suit knew it was only borrowed.

This has nothing to do with camo patterens, but still gives a little insight into PA. I still think some chapters would use approved camo schemes just making shure not to offend the suits machine spirit.

You seem to have used exactly my argument to prove the opposite point.

Deathwatch marines are honoured to be able to paint their armour a black (like a chaplain) showing they serve the Emperor directly and they still don't cover their chapter colours because they are afraid of dishonouring their chapter and offending the machine spirit of their armour.

If being personally selected to serve the Inquisition isn't honour enough to make marines cover their armour's markings why would a planet's terrain make them do it?

Col. Dash
20-09-2010, 00:08
Why would there be pictures of marines in camo if they didnt wear camo? There is mention of codex approved camo as well which says camo is in the codex written by the Super Smurf himself.

chromedog
20-09-2010, 00:17
The original cutaway of the beaky armour in the RT rulebook mentioned the armour incorporating a mimetic coating (built in camo) that would take on the colours of the surroundings OR could be programmed with specific schemes (like Parade dress, etc).

Kage2020
20-09-2010, 00:50
Where about on the image. Just had a gander and there was no reference to such coating but... Well, it's late and I might just have missed what was in front of my eyes.

Kage

Polaria
20-09-2010, 05:22
"The warriors who fight are given the honour of painting their armour black (to show their service to the Emperor), while leaving one shoulder pad with the original insignia of the Chapter from which the marine came. Although the armour is painted black, it is never all painted black as this action would dishonour the armour's Machine Spirit."

I'm pretty sure the taboos about power armors machine spirit is something that is relevant to each Chapter Cult but ultimately completely unrelevant to Adeptus Mechanicus creed. AdMech doesn't seem to mind painting Imperial Guard vehicles in whatever colors strikes the fancy of the local guardsmen. Accordingly the custom of not painting over chapter colors and the taboo of not painting over chapter symbol is something ultimately dictated by the keepers of each chapters cult (Chapter Master and Recclusiarchs). Accordingly all 1000-something chapters probably have their own (differing) rules and regulations on it.

Besides, Imperial Way of War is a matter of religion, not a matter of practical martial arts. We might as well debate about the popes funny hat and how impractical it is.

NightrawenII
21-09-2010, 08:05
Well, i personaly see very little reason for camouflage. I mean, your average Space Marine operation will consist of a quick but extremely brutal drop pod/ thunderhawk assault which is neither stealthy nor quiet. The Marines drop in, kill everything in sight and retreat before the enemy knows what happened.

For the sneaky stuff they can use their camouflaged scouts.
Camouflage is not only for being ninja-like, but to dismiss your silhouette, so you are harder target. Just saying.:angel:

Askil the Undecided
21-09-2010, 10:36
Camouflage is not only for being ninja-like, but to dismiss your silhouette, so you are harder target. Just saying.:angel:

The problem with occluding the silhouette of an 8 foot tall superhuman holding a rapid fire, armour piercing, gyrojet rocket launcher and enshrouded in armoured in a large self powered servo-assisted battle suit with plating roughly equivalent to an APC is that they are 8 feet tall, holding a rapid fire, armour piercing, gyrojet rocket launcher and enshrouded in armoured in a large self powered servo-assisted battle suit with plating roughly equivalent to an APC, not that their armour is starkly coloured.

[/THREAD]

Aiwass
21-09-2010, 10:54
@ Askil,

BTW, actual APCs (even tanks, figure it!) are painted in camo scheme... But 40k is not about modern real warfare.

Askil the Undecided
21-09-2010, 11:15
@ Askil,

BTW, actual APCs (even tanks, figure it!) are painted in camo scheme... But 40k is not about modern real warfare.

Yes tanks and APCs are covered in camo schemes and netting and other optical/imaging occlusion techniques, but they are also not charging at their enemies holding a rapid firing rocket weapon and a five foot long chainsaw sword.

Col. Dash
21-09-2010, 14:36
What if they are waiting in ambush? Trying to sneak in to accomplish the mission before alerting the enemy they are there. Contrary to popular belief. Not all marine tactics involve "ARRRRRRRRR! CHARGE!!" They would not live 100+ years if that was the case. Charge! might occur in cases when nothing else will work but they are going to do things smartly first.

Aiwass
21-09-2010, 14:47
@ Askil, true, tanks are only rushing forward firing battle cannons.

Askil the Undecided
21-09-2010, 16:30
@ Askil, true, tanks are only rushing forward firing battle cannons.

No they aren't, they are usually sitting at considerable range firing their ordinance at a distance great enough to make worthwhile use of camoflage.

Aiwass
21-09-2010, 16:41
Maybe Rommel thought slightly different.

NightrawenII
21-09-2010, 20:12
Maybe Rommel thought slightly different.
... and most of the commanders in Izrael.

Askil the Undecided
21-09-2010, 23:14
Neither of which are in the 40k universe facing Meltas and Lascannons and so are meaningless comparisons due to a vastly differing context. It's like saying an onion would be delicious in a chocolate cake because you liked it in your stew.

The simple fact is that due to an idiotic cocktail of superstition and pride Space Marines don't use camo.

Aiwass
21-09-2010, 23:35
Sure? Tanks are designed for anti-infantry role in both 40k and IRL, with some variations. Also, in 40k and IRL an inmobile tank is a dead tank.

Anyway, following the 40k logic, nothing that can't buy camo-netting/cloaks can make use of camouflage.

Beside this, pre heresy scouts wear power armour and they go kicking around and doing infiltrating tasks.

And marines are just 7 ft tall IIRC, not 8.

EDIT:


The simple fact is that due to an idiotic cocktail of superstition and pride Space Marines don't use camo.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. SM don't use camo in 5th edition, and that is what I was saying some posts before, but that has nothing to do with occulting the power armor silouette with camo.

Hedgehobbit
21-09-2010, 23:55
From the Compendium:

"Many schemes show no attempt at camouflage as such, but consist of solid heraldic colours proclaiming the identity of the occupants as surely as the shield of a medieval knight. Indeed, there are some Marine chapters whose tradition actually forbids the use of camouflage on the grounds that "the colours of cowardice" are wholly inappropriate to a true warrior. This attitude, although by no means rare amongst the Legiones Astartes, is not officially recognised and is not embodied within the ancient Codex Imperialis."

Col. Dash
22-09-2010, 00:05
Well I dont think edition has anything to do with it. Fluff is fluff and you cant change it. Marines are in canon wearing camo. Just because you want to believe they are a bunch of ****** who blindly charge instead of using tactics doesnt make it so. Dress uniforms and "Oh crap we are being boarded(are boarding)" missions are one thing. How many races do you seeing using advanced visuals, Tau..... maybe tyrannids see things differently, but everyone else in canon uses MK1 Eyeball, with some magnification perhaps. So to break up the outline, in order to ambush, to sneak onto enemy installations, etc etc, they do wear codex approved camo. Even the Red Scorpions use camo regardless of what some upstart Commander likes to think.

PostinDirty
22-09-2010, 00:19
well apart from isolated incidents like the Badab War there's no other noted instance of the Red Scorpions rocking camo, so i dunno duder

Aiwass
22-09-2010, 09:25
@ Col. Dash.

Alas, fluff changes in GW. SM insignia and badges have changed, Chapter organisation, squad equipment, uniforms and colour schemes, ork badges, eldar were called space elves, zoats exists. A lot of fluffy things have changed since RT. Also since 2nd ed (ie, SM armour color: Iron Warriors - White; World Eaters - Black; Lunar Wolves - Black), Primarch fluff (yes, in 2nd ed 9 loyalist primarch died of old at fourteen hundred years! 2nd Ed Codex Imperialis, page 20)...

So, just because you want to belive fluff can't change doesn't make it so.

Is possible that current marines wear camo? Sure. They usually do? Sure not.

Kage2020
22-09-2010, 14:04
'Fluff' is 2d material given another dimension by time (and, thus, game editions) thereby forming a 3d literary landscape that, as with real landscapes, changes perceived shape for any number of reasons, from viewshed to personal/cultural preferences. This can include occlusion, or the interposition of one element over another (let's call it "Revisionism"), or both can be seen at once and perceived relationships and patterns drawn between them ("Holism?").

It's all good, though.

Perhaps the only things that need to be revised are the kinds of things that can lead to the summaries linked in Aiwass' sig to tvTropes? :eyebrows:

:shifty:

Kage

Aiwass
22-09-2010, 14:45
I'm thinking to link to 1d4chan right now :shifty:

Polaria
22-09-2010, 14:50
I would like to contribute a quote which I find relevant to pretty much each and every discussion that includes the argument "marines doing such-and-such makes little sense because modern armies..."

War in 41st Millenium is not subject to moral laws or strategic logic; it is a matter of faith, and faith is the one thing which men willingly die for.

Askil the Undecided
22-09-2010, 15:03
You mean like this?

Kage2020
22-09-2010, 15:14
I'm thinking to link to 1d4chan right now :shifty:
:eyebrows:

LOL. That would, indeed, be a step in a wholly different direction. :D

Kage

Kriegschmidt
22-09-2010, 15:48
In Graeme MacNeil's book "Storm Of Iron" a small squad of Iron Warriors rub ash over their armour so that they can hide amongst ash and rocks, right in front of a group of guardsmen. (Which I find rather amusing, since they're still 8-foot tall monsters clad in thick, armoured plates :D)

Perhaps loyalist marines would make use of mud/dust/grime to camouflage their armour and sneak up on their (necessarily deaf) foes.

NightAngel
22-09-2010, 20:19
In Graeme MacNeil's book "Storm Of Iron" a small squad of Iron Warriors rub ash over their armour so that they can hide amongst ash and rocks, right in front of a group of guardsmen. (Which I find rather amusing, since they're still 8-foot tall monsters clad in thick, armoured plates :D)

Perhaps loyalist marines would make use of mud/dust/grime to camouflage their armour and sneak up on their (necessarily deaf) foes.

Use the tactics of the traitors are you mad!!!

HERETIC!!! HERETIC!!! BURN!!!!!!!

HK-47
22-09-2010, 20:21
You mean like this?

The funny thing about that pic is that I can barley see the Ultramarine. :p

Balgora
22-09-2010, 23:49
The funny thing about that pic is that I can barley see the Ultramarine. :p

Thing is, if you can see somebody relatively easily when it's a static photo it's about 1000x easier when you factor in the other things like reflected light and movement.

It's been a while since anybody made me recite the basics of camo but I think it goes:

Shape
Sound
Shine
Shadow
Silhouette
Movement
Colour

Pretty sure I got that wrong and somebody will set me straight but you get the idea.

R Man
23-09-2010, 08:13
There are other forms of camouflage other than patterns and colours. Things like electronic camouflage and camo netting and such. Its also worth noting that any dark armour is going to be excellent camo in any dark place. Especially in a place like a hive city where it would most likely be near pitch black.

Aiwass
23-09-2010, 08:18
The funny thing about that pic is that I can barley see the Ultramarine. :p

And this is because a 7 foot tall uberhuman firing a self proppelled rocket launcher in clad armour can use camo and occlude their silhouette :rolleyes:

Which doesn't mean that they will use it.

Kriegschmidt
23-09-2010, 08:50
Which doesn't mean that they will use it.

Well that's another kettle of fish of course. I don't think the vast majority of space marines would want to use camo. They're the "Angels of Death": they want people to see them coming, because if you can see them coming, they're probably coming in so hard and fast that all you can do is be very afraid before dying a horrible, bloody death.

Of course, I'm generalising here and there are notable exceptions like the Imperial Fists, who have an aptitude for static defense or slow siege warfare, but likewise I'm sure they pride themselves on the hefty psychological impact of their appearance: their size, massive armour, frightening-looking weapons, etc.

Hedgehobbit
24-09-2010, 14:56
Well that's another kettle of fish of course. I don't think the vast majority of space marines would want to use camo. They're the "Angels of Death": they want people to see them coming, because if you can see them coming, they're probably coming in so hard and fast that all you can do is be very afraid before dying a horrible, bloody death.
On which of humanities enemies would this tactic actually work? Not Tyrannids, Necrons, CSM, Orks or Eldar (who would just leave after spotting you if they didn't want to fight). Maybe that's why the Badab Wars has so much camo since it was SM against SM.

It's like the Roman legionaires during their civil wars. Instead of shouting their normal war cry, the romans just silently walked up to each other. They both knew that they couldn't scare their oppenents so they didn't bother trying.

Col. Dash
24-09-2010, 16:52
No joke. Any of those listed would simply go(In whatever language/mind meld they use) "There they are! _______(Shoot, eat, party, Go) that way!"

Askil the Undecided
24-09-2010, 19:27
On which of humanities enemies would this tactic actually work? Not Tyrannids, Necrons, CSM, Orks or Eldar (who would just leave after spotting you if they didn't want to fight). Maybe that's why the Badab Wars has so much camo since it was SM against SM.

Well lets answer that eh?

'Nids can register when things are not going their way, so yes psychology works on them better than them suddenly finding and eating a sneakier army also they hunt by their senses of smell and hearing too so camo is rather null.

'Crons, okay 'Crons honestly don't give a toss.

CSM, can be remarkably cowardly if they don't feel things are going their way. They are all ultimately in it for themselves after all.

Orks, are very prone to running off if they aren't "propperly motervated" by someone bigger than themselves, or feeling invincible in a big mob.

Eldar, are the very essence of the kind of chaps who would make an expenditious retreat rather that face overwhelming odds.

HK-47
24-09-2010, 21:47
And this is because a 7 foot tall uberhuman firing a self proppelled rocket launcher in clad armour can use camo and occlude their silhouette :rolleyes:

Which doesn't mean that they will use it.

Wait are you being sarcastic? Because I wasn't being serious, if anything it's really a joke on how bad my eyesight is.

Aiwass
24-09-2010, 23:25
Yes, but not at you (besides I'd quoted to you).

HK-47
25-09-2010, 06:41
Yes, but not at you (besides I'd quoted to you).

:p Sorry, I have trouble understanding sarcasm when it's in text.

Aiwass
25-09-2010, 09:06
Don't worry, my english level neither helps xD

SockMonkey
26-09-2010, 00:28
Camouflage is the colour of fear. A space Marine has no need to hide from his enemies.

This.

For all of you saying RT they were all cam'd up. This quote was RT era compendium or compilation therefor WD.

adreal
26-09-2010, 02:43
Granted I'm not a huge reader of fluff, but here is my two cents anyways.

In one of the Word beaers books a bunch of marines (terminators i think) dug into caves to hide from a titan before launching a surprise assault on said titan, what they didn't do is re-paint thier armour, and they were there for a long campaign. And these are guys from the crusade, so they would know a thing or two about warfare.

In the Tau forge world Imperial armour it does give insite to some marine tactics, granted this was a Tau book, but hte marines did do thier usual angels of death thing, won some and lost some, but I don't think they bothered with repainting thier armour, but it wouldn't surprise me if they hidse in buildings and what not for ambushes.

In legion the alpha legion don't seem to bother re painting thier armour at all, and this is the alpha legion, the sneakiest mo-fo's this side of mc-sneaky-ville

Hell even in the alpha legion IA it never (IIRC) stats they re-paint thier armour, they just make great use of coverfire and stuff, and not relying on one chain of command (it's how htye beat the ultramarines)

In fulgrim when they describe the desperate battle on Istvaan 3 (i think) marines make use of cover, and rely on crossfire and coverfire, and sure thier armour got dirty, but never re-painted (and this was the emporer's children.....if thye didn't have clean armour, they were doing it wrong)


Do marines use actual tactics? Yes, but that doesn't mean they would re-paint thier armour, but they can actually use cover, actually support other units, and bring destruction to thier foe's without camo, being sneaky, yes, but not needing camo.

FabricatorGeneralMike
26-09-2010, 03:50
Granted I'm not a huge reader of fluff, but here is my two cents anyways.

In one of the Word beaers books a bunch of marines (terminators i think) dug into caves to hide from a titan before launching a surprise assault on said titan, what they didn't do is re-paint thier armour, and they were there for a long campaign. And these are guys from the crusade, so they would know a thing or two about warfare.

In the Tau forge world Imperial armour it does give insite to some marine tactics, granted this was a Tau book, but hte marines did do thier usual angels of death thing, won some and lost some, but I don't think they bothered with repainting thier armour, but it wouldn't surprise me if they hidse in buildings and what not for ambushes.

In legion the alpha legion don't seem to bother re painting thier armour at all, and this is the alpha legion, the sneakiest mo-fo's this side of mc-sneaky-ville

Hell even in the alpha legion IA it never (IIRC) stats they re-paint thier armour, they just make great use of coverfire and stuff, and not relying on one chain of command (it's how htye beat the ultramarines)

In fulgrim when they describe the desperate battle on Istvaan 3 (i think) marines make use of cover, and rely on crossfire and coverfire, and sure thier armour got dirty, but never re-painted (and this was the emporer's children.....if thye didn't have clean armour, they were doing it wrong)


Do marines use actual tactics? Yes, but that doesn't mean they would re-paint thier armour, but they can actually use cover, actually support other units, and bring destruction to thier foe's without camo, being sneaky, yes, but not needing camo.

Oh they didn't repaint their armour to look like Ultramarines? They didn't repaint their armour to confuse the Ultrablingers?

Hummm, guess I was reading different fluff from you :wtf:

I'm just wondering, do you have to sign up on the GW website to get this new fluff or is it avalable to us mear mortals?

Plus that whole Alpha-legion IA was written from the prospective of a =][= who had been lured to join the AL and spread dis-informantion about them.

adreal
27-09-2010, 11:26
Oh they didn't repaint their armour to look like Ultramarines? They didn't repaint their armour to confuse the Ultrablingers?

Hummm, guess I was reading different fluff from you :wtf:

I'm just wondering, do you have to sign up on the GW website to get this new fluff or is it avalable to us mear mortals?

Plus that whole Alpha-legion IA was written from the prospective of a =][= who had been lured to join the AL and spread dis-informantion about them.


As I said IIRC, which was wrong, thanks for correcting me:D

It's been awhile since I read thier IA, and awhile since I read Legion, Fulgrim and any other sorce I stated, so it could all be wrong (shrugs), but like I said, thanks

Arathan
27-09-2010, 13:56
The thing about the often repeated "coulour of fear"-quote is that it is not universal. It is something said by a commander who personally feels this way but not even his entire chapter agrees with him.

I imagine that most chapters do use camouflage when necessary, and it usually isn't sufficiently important to overcome their pride in their colours, as the mentions of codex-approved camouflage patterns and the fact that there was a specific trait for chapters who refused to use camouflage and sneak around in the 4th edition codex seems to support.

The taboo against painting over the colours of a suit of power armour isn't really a problem as they could easily leave a part of it in its original colour even if painted in camo as Deathwatch marines do as well as chaplains and librarians.

AndrewGPaul
27-09-2010, 16:04
The new Imperial Armour volume 9 mentions that the Raptors repainted their armour in arctic camouflage for one action. It also depicts the Howling Griffons in their Codex-approved Night World camouflage scheme (basically all-black with the shoulders in Chapter colours.

The thing against repainting the armour started out as a single instance of superstition in a Blood Angels terminator squad - one suit was originally acquired from the Ultramarines, and every time it was repainted red, the wearer died. Notably, this wasn't even a Chapter-wide superstition - it was noted that the armourers had to be told not to repaint it.

jibbajabbawocky
27-09-2010, 19:38
I'm a walking apartment building with a gun. Why do I need camo?

Col. Dash
27-09-2010, 19:47
Do remember, camo isnt always about hiding. Its about breaking up the outline to make it harder to shoot or get noticed in the first place. In most conditions, black is not the most effective camo at night. I went to a night time demo once where three guys were in camo, one was in BDUs, one was in all black and the other was in all white. The white guy stood out like a sore thumb, the black guy was more hidden but was still plainly visible against a black background. The guy in BDUs was almost invisible, not because we couldnt see him, but because the patterns of camo messed up his outline so we couldnt make him out even knowing he was there. Ships were painted in that cool jagged paint scheme in ww2 not to hide but to make it hard for subs to pick a point to fire at. In that pic above with the marine in the woods, I automatically had my eyes drawn to the marine.
Is there really a marine in that other pic?

Polaria
28-09-2010, 08:49
By the way... Camo is also defined by the way your likely opponents us to detect you. Do we know all xenos use vision as their detection method and that their sight operates at a range from about 380 or 400 nanometres to about 760 or 780 nm wavelenght of electromagnetic radiation?

I don't think we do. There is tremendous variation in sight even at Earth. Moose, deer and many other prey animals detect movement but cannot distinguish colors of red from green. So you can sneak up on deer wearing red in a pefectly green forest. Bees, on the other hand, see at UV spectrum so they see you are wearing cloth or metal and standing in forest (which is not cloth or metal). Bats don't really give a toss on your colors since they use sound reflection to "see"...

Kriegschmidt
28-09-2010, 09:59
That's a good point, Polaria. I guess in the 41st milennium there is enough technology of detection that traditional camouflage probably wouldn't help you that much. If your technology can tell you that there are enemy troops in a certain area, you can bombard it quite happily and their camouflage efforts will have been for nought.

Just from reading the Soul Drinker and HH novels, it seems that space marine non-detection is done by destroying/sabotaging detection equipment, drop-podding in at the last minute, basing themselves out of harm's way then carrying out a lightning strike, etc., rather than relying on breaking up their visible outline.

madd0ct0r
29-09-2010, 03:21
[QUOTE=Polaria;5011259]By the way... Camo is also defined by the way your likely opponents us to detect you. Do we know all xenos use vision as their detection method and that their sight operates at a range from about 380 or 400 nanometres to about 760 or 780 nm wavelenght of electromagnetic radiation? [QUOTE]

Add in IR an easy technology and also used by pit vipers; ground vibration used by snakes and elelphants; 'wraith sight' of the warp signitures, alarm and spotter squigs, nano-cams, intelligent mines / drones; scent hunters and combinations of the above and camo paint is the least of your troubles.


I've always personally believed that marine armour is 'stealthed' enough you can't pick them out from orbit or ranges much beyond eyeball. No real evidence for this though.

Kage2020
29-09-2010, 03:35
You need to play Deathwatch, madd0ct0r. :D

Kage

madd0ct0r
29-09-2010, 06:34
I do, I really do.

Unless it's over the net, it's unlikely. RPGs and 40K have not yet penetrated Vietnam

EDIT: rereads sentace. head now on desk.