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View Full Version : Is Line of Sight 360 in 8th?



Morglum5780
16-09-2010, 23:33
The BRB lists the rules for LoS as "...you must be able to trace an unblocked line from it's eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms, or legs) of the target".

I take this as meaning that all models have 360 degree LoS. there is room for the argument that you cant see through your own head, but that would lead to a lot of other issues.

Most of the time this doesn't come up, as you need frontal arc to charge, shoot, etc. But things like the Doom Totem and Casket of Souls just effect models who have LoS. I have searched the forum well and have found one or two threads which make a sideways mention to this fact, but usually as an example as those threads are about other topics.

So, do models have 360 degree line of sight? And if not, how are we supposed to play it?

D'Haran
17-09-2010, 00:12
As you said the concept of LoS as we knew it in 7th can't be found in the current rules. Charging and shooting both mention LoS as a requirement + frontal arc, I believe this is mentioned as it's possible for some things to block LoS (impassible terrain, buildings, other enemy units). Magic also discusses some spells needing a forward arc but that they don't need LoS. In 8th LoS was often their way of saying front arc, as I believe is the case with the Doom Totem.

I would draw 2 conclusions from this 1. LoS is an antiquated notion as far as Shooting/Magic/Charging, it's all about the arc. 2. The discussion of 360 LoS in 8th edition is meaningless.

Casket of Souls is a warmachine, it functions as a warmachine and can 'pivot' on the spot. Asking about it's LoS would be like asking about the LoS of a cannon or Bolt Thrower. *sry didn't have the book on hand to check that it's enemy units LoS to the casket, armybuilder failed me*

The doom totem however presents a special challenge, they obviously failed to address it in the faq. I wouldn't bother taking this item because of the inconsistencies, however if you take it and there's a disagreement you either ask the judge who will rule for that tournament or roll a die. Personally I'd play it as the item was originally intended in 7th ed as the forward arc of a unit rather than trying to make the item more than it was suppose to be.

Chris_
17-09-2010, 00:48
Casket of Souls is a warmachine, it functions as a warmachine and can 'pivot' on the spot. Asking about it's LoS would be like asking about the LoS of a cannon or Bolt Thrower.This is wrong, you can't move it at all. And it is the enemy unit in question that needs to check LoS to the Casket and not the other way around. So even if a unit is behind the Casket they still suffer its effects.

As for the topic I would say that you have basically a 180 degrees line of sight like we (real peeps) almost have. You would have trouble convincing your opponent that he can see something behind him... No eyes in the back of the head (even if the monster/creature has that).

Yrrdead
17-09-2010, 06:40
For our group we've just been treating Frontal Arc as king. Not sure at all what is actually intended.

minionboy
17-09-2010, 16:01
I was just wondering this myself, any insight would be great

mishari26
17-09-2010, 16:16
it seems that LOS in 8th is a completely ambiguous affair now.. "from the eyes of the model..." please :P

atleast for charging they said it (almost as an afterthought!) on p.16 top right. "The target must lie at least partially within the charging unit's front arc"

and for magic it's also clear "frontal arc".

for shooting it also says clearly p.39 that the target must lie at least partially within the shooter's front arc.

So frontal arc is still King as Yrrdead said, but LOS and frontal arc are now not related at all.

T10
17-09-2010, 21:51
it seems that LOS in 8th is a completely ambiguous affair now.. "from the eyes of the model..." please :P


Skeleton models don't have eyes... How's that for atmosphere?

-T10

Kevlar
17-09-2010, 23:56
p. 508 has a pretty clear requirement chart for all spell types. Shooting is pretty clear on p. 39 that all targets must lie in your forward arc, same rule as charging.

What isn't clear?

Morglum5780
18-09-2010, 00:25
What isn't clear is everything else.

Chris_
18-09-2010, 00:26
Casket of Souls as an example.

Yrrdead
18-09-2010, 00:30
Every spell that mentions LOS that isn't in the BRB. Multiple AB magic items. Many many things aren't clear. Including the rear window on my car.

Kevlar
18-09-2010, 03:21
Casket of Souls as an example.

Casket of souls is pretty clear. Whatever has LoS to the casket. Don't want to look at the casket? Move your troops sideways or backwards. That is legal now!

Lord Inquisitor
18-09-2010, 03:29
... And what exactly is that defined as? Front 90-degree like charging, front 180-degree like magic, or other?

Ultimate Life Form
18-09-2010, 03:54
And if I model my troops with blindfolds? Are they then safe from the Casket of Souls?

Seriously, introducing TLoS was completely unnecessary and probably the biggest mistake with the new Edition. I suggest using the front arc in case of doubt; most people will probably be fine with it (except those frenzied WAAC players on drugs, but if you play those it's your own fault to begin with).

Chris_
18-09-2010, 04:31
Casket of souls is pretty clear. Whatever has LoS to the casket. Don't want to look at the casket? Move your troops sideways or backwards. That is legal now!I think you missed what the whole discussion was about...

Lord Inquisitor
18-09-2010, 04:48
And if I model my troops with blindfolds? Are they then safe from the Casket of Souls?

Seriously, introducing TLoS was completely unnecessary and probably the biggest mistake with the new Edition. I suggest using the front arc in case of doubt; most people will probably be fine with it (except those frenzied WAAC players on drugs, but if you play those it's your own fault to begin with).

Your dislike of TLoS is pretty clear but that isn't the issue here - the question is more of one of arc of sight. One of the advantages of TLoS is that it's easy to define and is well defined - what is nebulous is the arc of sight restrictions on TLoS.

Ultimate Life Form
18-09-2010, 04:52
The problem is that we're now basically left with two different, independent ways of determining LoS, which understandably leads to confusion. All I said is that if a problem arises it would probably be best to stick with the one we know.

Yrrdead
18-09-2010, 07:16
Honestly the only reason that there hasn't been more complaining about TLOS is simply that in 8th most of the time LOS is irrelevant. Front Arc is vastly more important. Which is fortunate since the actual TLOS is way too ambiguous for a game with models as varied as WHFB. Here's to hoping they errata it out. Not because I personally find it onerous but more so because having a really "soft" rule is begging to devolve a game into an argument.

T10
18-09-2010, 10:36
Magenta
Magic 180 degrees?

-T10

Lord Inquisitor
18-09-2010, 13:53
Magic 180 degrees?

-T10

That's what I get for posting late at night without checking. Yeah, that's forward arc too.

It looks to me there aren't any examples in the book of a situation where LOS is not used in conjunction with forward arc, so I assume we are meant to apply arc to all Los situations as before, but the rules very clearly separate arc and LOS.

As for TLOS being bad or the suggestion that it is a mistake to be errata'd - it's here to stay. Indeed, earlier editions of warhammer used models eye view for everything but unit-unit interactions and area terrain and despite widespread house rules for abstract terrain (or flat out playing incorrectly), this edition moved to TLoS ... It's not changing. And it should be noted again that TLoS isn't the issue here, it's arc of sight that's vague outside of the specific situations in the rulebook.

phoenixcrh
18-09-2010, 14:49
Can fast cavalry still shoot in 360 degree line of sight also and do the get the fire in 2 ranks rule like infantry or not? Im thinking 2 ranks of 5 dark riders with repeater crossbows.

antihelten
18-09-2010, 17:13
all models have a 90 degree arc of sight. It is quite understandable why people have a problem finding this in the book however, since as far as I can tell it isn't there, which is probably why it is listed as one of the easy to miss rules in the steadfast article :P (under lone characters)

Chaos Undecided
18-09-2010, 17:37
Fast cavalry now have the same shooting rules as other missile units as far as I can see so only the front arc firing and yes to two ranks.

Lord Inquisitor
18-09-2010, 18:41
all models have a 90 degree arc of sight. It is quite understandable why people have a problem finding this in the book however, since as far as I can tell it isn't there, which is probably why it is listed as one of the easy to miss rules in the steadfast article :P (under lone characters)

We can find the arc of sight rules (they're pretty clear) - the question is whether arc of sight always applies to LoS. The book lists them as separate. What if you have a character that has clear LoS to a casket of souls but it is out of his arc of sight - is the casket "in LoS" or not?

antihelten
18-09-2010, 21:18
We can find the arc of sight rules (they're pretty clear) - the question is whether arc of sight always applies to LoS. The book lists them as separate. What if you have a character that has clear LoS to a casket of souls but it is out of his arc of sight - is the casket "in LoS" or not?

I think your mixing front arc with arc of sight. the first is as you say quite clear where as the second one isn't mentioned in the book anywhere to my knowledge.

However if you read the Jervis Johnson article "steadfast" part 3 it says under lone characters that all models have a 90 degree arc of sight. so it's not really part of the rules (as far as I can tell) but Jervis says it is so...

Chris_
18-09-2010, 22:31
^ BRB pg. 10 there are rules for Line of Sight. Never heard of any "Arc of Sight"... Sounds like that is actually the same as "Frontal Arc".

Kevlar
19-09-2010, 00:21
^ BRB pg. 10 there are rules for Line of Sight. Never heard of any "Arc of Sight"... Sounds like that is actually the same as "Frontal Arc".

Yeah am I the only one who takes it to mean the same thing? Your charge arc is also the arc for unit LOS. You can't see anything outside your charge arc regardless of whether or not you can trace a line to it.

antihelten
19-09-2010, 08:28
^ BRB pg. 10 there are rules for Line of Sight. Never heard of any "Arc of Sight"... Sounds like that is actually the same as "Frontal Arc".

again it's not that weird that you haven't heard of arc of sight as until the steadfast articles by Jervis, it didn't exist in 8th to my knowledge.

"Lone Characters: Note that lone characters no longer have a 360 degree arc of sight. All models use the same 90 degree arc of sight now, and can only 'see' in the direction they are facing." straight from the article.

this means that the arc of sight is basically equal to the front arc but not the same thing (Jervis could also just have said that you can only trace line of sight in your front arc, which would probably have been simpler than introducing the term "arc of sight")

Chris_
19-09-2010, 08:48
again it's not that weird that you haven't heard of arc of sight as until the steadfast articles by Jervis, it didn't exist in 8th to my knowledge.

"Lone Characters: Note that lone characters no longer have a 360 degree arc of sight. All models use the same 90 degree arc of sight now, and can only 'see' in the direction they are facing." straight from the article.

this means that the arc of sight is basically equal to the front arc but not the same thing (Jervis could also just have said that you can only trace line of sight in your front arc, which would probably have been simpler than introducing the term "arc of sight")Hm... I would say there is no support for this in the rulebook. You sure he doesn't actually mean Forward Arc? Because it is TLoS from the eyes of the model, that most likely give you a wider field of vision than 90 degrees (or maybe he is talking abou 90 degrees to each side as in 180 degrees as a normal human basically has, almost anyway), or am I making this too complicated?

T10
19-09-2010, 09:19
Agreed. Jervis presents a gross simplification.

-T10

antihelten
19-09-2010, 10:46
I know that the 90 degree arc of sight that Jervis mentions isn't in the rulebook and that hes basically making things up, but it's either that or having the arc of sight being dependent on how the eyes are situated on the models, which would mean that skinks have about 300 degrees arc of sight and one of the chaos chosen has a 0 degree arc of sight (not slits in his helmet)

so while it isn't actually in the rules the RAI is quite clear and in this case the RAW is just plain silly

Lord Inquisitor
19-09-2010, 13:45
I agree, I think the article is good evidence that RaI is that forward arc is used for all LOS just the way it has always been.

Kevlar
19-09-2010, 14:13
I know that the 90 degree arc of sight that Jervis mentions isn't in the rulebook and that hes basically making things up, but it's either that or having the arc of sight being dependent on how the eyes are situated on the models, which would mean that skinks have about 300 degrees arc of sight and one of the chaos chosen has a 0 degree arc of sight (not slits in his helmet)

so while it isn't actually in the rules the RAI is quite clear and in this case the RAW is just plain silly

What do you mean it isn't in the rule book?

It is in mine on p.39 under 2. Choose a target. It is quite clear that you can only trace LoS to something in your forward arc. It even says "just as if you wished to declare a charge".

Can it be any more clear?

Chris_
19-09-2010, 22:06
What do you mean it isn't in the rule book?

It is in mine on p.39 under 2. Choose a target. It is quite clear that you can only trace LoS to something in your forward arc. It even says "just as if you wished to declare a charge".

Can it be any more clear?No, read it again. There are 2 conditions there, one is that it has to be in the forward arc and one is that you have to be able to trace a line of sight to the intended target. The "Arc of Sight" is just a made up term which is basically the same as LoS was in 7th edition.