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Aliarzathanil
17-09-2010, 04:34
I've had a rough go trying to win watchtower battle with Bretonnians. I'm curious if the wind blast spell from lore of heavens could be used to move a unit out of the tower.

Yrrdead
17-09-2010, 07:34
In answer to your question , I would say no.

In regards to that scenario, the times I've played it against Bret's, we just ruled that no unit can occupy it. Otherwise it is unusually punitive towards Brettonians.

Ultimate Life Form
17-09-2010, 07:46
Yeah, its not like Bretonnians have infantry units as well, which they could take for a change, so it's definitely better to punish the other players for not playing Bretonnia.

But as for the question, while I can't see anything that would 'prevent' it, I'd find it odd to be pushed out of my house the next time a storm is brewing, but that's just me.

I think the writers had their reasons why they stated that use of buildings calls for 'a small amount of common sense', but of course they were woefully unaware that there is no room for such things in a game where people typically obsessively try to pull off all kinds of things in order to maximize their chances of victory so they can pretend they're winners.

Yrrdead
17-09-2010, 07:52
I've never felt punished by removing the occupation portion of the scenario. The alternate winning conditions are more than fair without requiring my opponent to field Men at Arms. Which are good models (and painted very well) but abhorrent in game terms.

Aliarzathanil
17-09-2010, 08:20
There aren't enough peasants in Bretonnia to dislodge a unit of Black Guard or Phoenix Guard. I take infantry. It's just really, really terrible.

ULF, If you have an advanced degree in mathematics, perhaps you could tell me the likelihood of ten men-at-arms beating ten phoenix guard in a fight coupled with their chance of failing a leadership nine (with possible reroll) and vacating the tower. Perhaps I should rely on BS 3 archers firing into hard cover? Any ideas would be great, otherwise I'll just continue to bask in the genius of your previously provided insight. Thanks in advance.

Reinier
17-09-2010, 08:21
You can take mat, but alternetive you can charge with your knights the watchtower, If nobody occupies the tower, the closests units count.

xalfej
17-09-2010, 08:28
A bunch of archers with flaming shots shooting into the watchtower. If you can't beat them. BURN IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


~xalfej

Aliarzathanil
17-09-2010, 08:39
One hundred archers, even at close range, can only dispatch about four per turn (Phoenix Guard). It's not nearly as effective as it sounds. More likely, you have about forty archers. Assuming close range, you'd be lucky to drop two. Trebuchets are a little better, but still not devastating.

Atrahasis
17-09-2010, 08:43
ULF, If you have an advanced degree in mathematics, perhaps you could tell me the likelihood of ten men-at-arms beating ten phoenix guard in a fight coupled with their chance of failing a leadership nine (with possible reroll) and vacating the tower. Perhaps I should rely on BS 3 archers firing into hard cover? Any ideas would be great, otherwise I'll just continue to bask in the genius of your previously provided insight. Thanks in advance.

Use ranged attacks (treb+flaming arrows) plus knights to dislodge them, and then use infantry to secure it.

It's difficult for anyone to dislodge infantry from a watchtower with a frontal assault. That's true in real life as well.

Aliarzathanil
17-09-2010, 15:15
Flaming arrows are nearly worthless against anything tough or anything with a decent save, and utterly worthless against things with both of these. "Use arrows" is not really a viable option...

Atrahasis
17-09-2010, 15:49
Well, if "use arrows" was the only option I'd outlined, your response might be worth something.

Aliarzathanil
17-09-2010, 17:39
One could try using knights, Knights of the Realm, when not on horseback are actually worse than Empire swordsmen. The list of things they can actually beat in this type of fight is pretty limited.

The other problem is you obviously can't shoot the guys in the tower while you charge them. This, in addition to the random game length, means you're basically screwed if at any point in the game they get anything even remotely decent (basically, anything as good as spearmen) in the tower.

theunwantedbeing
17-09-2010, 19:57
For bretonnians you get a lot of options to deal with enemies in the watchtower.

Shooting consists of massed longbowmen firing.
Flaming arrows help here because you get re-rolls to wound as a result of the attacks being flaming.
Trebuchet's being templates can also do a fair bit of damage as well.

Magic consists of usually taking life magic, or beasts.
Buffed knights will happily fend off most opposing attacker's and a buffed Bretonnian paladin or general will easily butcher his way through most things. Taking morning star's also helps as you won't benefit from a lance when fighting an enemy in a tower.

Dwellers below is another nasty spell to use on enemies in the watchtower, simply as your often killing on a 4+ outright, so things like phoenix guard (who will only be in the tower from turn 2 onwards anyway) are removable using that.
Comet, Chain lightning and Urannons Thunderbolt all can do damage to a unit in a tower as well.

As for combat. You have to remember that it's just kills that matter here.
So character's are noticably better than normal knights or peasants.
Pegasus knights are rather handy for this. especially as they also get a stomp attack.

Bretonnians have plenty of ways to remove people from a watchtower.
Less to occupy it of course but that's what happens when your an army of knights.

decker_cky
17-09-2010, 20:29
For bretonnians you get a lot of options to deal with enemies in the watchtower.

Shooting consists of massed longbowmen firing.
Flaming arrows help here because you get re-rolls to wound as a result of the attacks being flaming.
Trebuchet's being templates can also do a fair bit of damage as well.

Magic consists of usually taking life magic, or beasts.
Buffed knights will happily fend off most opposing attacker's and a buffed Bretonnian paladin or general will easily butcher his way through most things. Taking morning star's also helps as you won't benefit from a lance when fighting an enemy in a tower.

Dwellers below is another nasty spell to use on enemies in the watchtower, simply as your often killing on a 4+ outright, so things like phoenix guard (who will only be in the tower from turn 2 onwards anyway) are removable using that.
Comet, Chain lightning and Urannons Thunderbolt all can do damage to a unit in a tower as well.

As for combat. You have to remember that it's just kills that matter here.
So character's are noticably better than normal knights or peasants.
Pegasus knights are rather handy for this. especially as they also get a stomp attack.

Bretonnians have plenty of ways to remove people from a watchtower.
Less to occupy it of course but that's what happens when your an army of knights.

Great post.

Just like to add that pure knights is an extreme build, and extreme builds tend to have bad matchups in the scenarios. If you used the tools in your list, you could take a huge infantry unit to occupy the tower after you kill the unit inside it, and all those elite armies you'll have trouble shaking from the tower will have trouble shaking out 50 infantry with the blessing.

Mr_Rose
17-09-2010, 21:18
Also, once you've driven the foe out of the building and occupied it with your own mans, what the heck are your knights doing then? Waiting for the ground to open up and swallow them?

The y should be out front running down and/or harassing the elite infantry you're so afraid will come back and kill your men at arms...

T10
18-09-2010, 11:55
In answer to your question , I would say no.

Ok, why?

Units are not normally barred from leaving buildings, though this is usually voluntary or due to fleeing, and those are quite nicely covered by the rules. Also, units in buildings are valid targets for magic missiles.

Being forced out by a wind blast would require some creativity, but I don't see how this is clearly disallowed.

-T10

havoc626
18-09-2010, 12:43
I'd actually agree with T10 here. The unit is able to move and they aren't coming into contact with impassable terrain, so there isn't anything to say they can't be moved out. I'd treat this situation the same as if they were falling back.

Also, I would think that Brettonia would be able to move fast enough to block the opponent from getting to the watchtower in the first place, but I suppose that it does really depend on who you are up against and how the board is set up.

frapermax
18-09-2010, 12:44
Hi, I would let you use wind blast just because it was a nice surprise you would have pulled.
BTW check out the battle reports by Once Bitten. He dislodged a DE spear horde from a tower with his Brets. Great reports, all of them.
greets
fpm