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ArtificerArmour
19-09-2010, 08:10
Allo.

I'm currently looking for information regarding Necromunda:

a) How large are the houses of necromunda, in size?

b) Would the Necromundan army be able to sustain a regiment from one house?

The 8th are all taken from the spyder gang so I would imagine yes.

hs5ias
19-09-2010, 08:48
The six lower houses of Hive Primus, the ones from the Necromunda rulebook, all number in at least the hundreds of millions, if not the billions. Hive Primus is huge, it has the population of a fair size world.

Since a regiment is only about 6,000 strong, you could sustain an entire army group from a single house. In fact given the colossal tithe demands for troops and weapons from Necromunda the Imperium does just that.

The Spyder gang are not from Hive Primus, so are unrelated to the six houses. They come from the lower depths of the Palatine Hive, a separate hive from Hive Primus.

AndrewGPaul
19-09-2010, 08:50
The only real comment on Necromunda's population is "An attempted census of Trazior Hive four thousand years ago revealed an estimated population of a billion in the upper habitation levels alone - no further attempt has ben made to count Necromunda's population in Trazior or any of the several thousand hives on the planet."

That would suggest a population of trillions in just the Spire sections of the hives alone. Call it tens - possibly hundreds - of trillions overall.

Each Great House probably has a population of multiple billions. A House could easily raise a regiment from its population alone.

AndrewGPaul
19-09-2010, 08:51
I think Hive Palatine and Hive Primus are different names for the same thing. Both are described as the capital hive, and both are described as having House Helmawr's palaces at the peak.

spetswalshe
19-09-2010, 13:22
I think Hive Palatine and Hive Primus are different names for the same thing. Both are described as the capital hive, and both are described as having House Helmawr's palaces at the peak.

They are, as far as I know. Hive Palatine seemed to be the name used before the Necromunda game came out.

The 'Spiders' gang comes from pre-Necromunda skirmish game references; they aren't mentioned in the official Necromunda background, and I'm guessing they're not mentioned in any of the Necromunda BL books either. While the game is entirely focused on Hive Primus - and there are 'thousands' of other hives - Primus is the biggest, and probably by a long way. Nevertheless, it makes sense that the majority of Necromundan soldiers would come from other hives, the same way most British soldiers don't come from London.

I like the idea that the 'Spiders' are simply a forced construct by the Necromundan armed forces; everyone leaves their previous gang loyalties behind and joins the 'Spiders', because it's an easier mental leap than having people abandon gang life entirely and take up a military mindset, or taking the risk of inter-regimental warfare when a Goliath squad waltzes into an all-Escher barracks and starts flexing. A regiment sent out for normal Guard duty - being attached to other regiments to form an army, that kind of thing - could easily come from a single house (and with Cawdor and Escher, it'd probably be for the best); however I'd expect an all-Necromundan army of multiple regiments raised at the same time might adopt the 'Spider' gang instead. It'd also help with standard PDF work; the 'Spiders' are a gang of their own, and so won't be biased for or against a house (and can be trusted to work for Spire employers without a conflict of interest) when a rebellion needs to be put down, or an inter-House war gets too costly to the rest of the Hive.

Leftenant Gashrog
19-09-2010, 14:53
The Spiders and Hive Palatine have however been mentioned in 40k since Necromunda - in the WD that accompanied the release of the revised 3rd edition IG Codex - which I've interpreted to mean that Necromunda is in a divergent universe from regular 40k (which would also explain why the Underhive is full of Mk2 Plasma Weaponry)

Askil the Undecided
19-09-2010, 15:54
The reason that Necromunda is full of high tech gizmos and plasma weaponry is because these things are made there to supply the Imperial Guard.

Also the Spider gang is an example of the political clout of powerful larger gangs causing them to get semi-legitimised by House Helmawr to make them controlable.

Leftenant Gashrog
19-09-2010, 16:30
The reason that Necromunda is full of high tech gizmos and plasma weaponry is because these things are made there to supply the Imperial Guard.

Except that "Mk2" (relatively safe but requiring time to recharge after firing) plasma weaponry seemingly doesn't exist in 40k anymore - certainly not under the 3.x rules and not in Inquisitor or Dark Heresy either. Nowadays everyone uses what 2nd edition called "Mk1" (rapid fire but prone to exploding) plasma weaponry.

spetswalshe
19-09-2010, 19:36
Maybe military plasma weapons are just firing on high-power all the time, with the safety cut-off (to allow excess heat to vent, forcing the 'recharge' delay) disabled. After all, they're used to immolate power armour and cut through medium tanks, neither of which really comes up in the Underhive - rules aside, I'd think it's safe to assume a Marine is firing on full power all the time. Or possibly the 'mk2' plasma weapons require significant post-battle recharging that makes them unsuitable for someone who is ever more than five meters from an electrical socket?

Or possibly Necromunda is just one of the very last places with that kind of technology available; maybe Lord Helmwar is keeping that one close to his chest, or is under pressure not to sell the designs from the AdMech - or maybe they just don't realise everyone else has regressed all of a sudden. It's not like the Ultramarines or Cadian 88th hang out in the Underhive very often.

ArtificerArmour
19-09-2010, 20:06
TBH one of the things I dislike in necro are the current rules for plasma guns, but that's for another thread in another forum ;)

On the topic of houses - I had no idea they were so large. I thought they would just be a few hundred strong rather than thousands, with the kids off being gangers and what not

Askil the Undecided
19-09-2010, 20:07
Or possibly, just possibly it might be because Necromunda was written before 40k was leeched of almost all it's quirks, comedy, depth and complexity and got simplified to the point that the near braindead can be taught to play it. Then got re-released with virtually no refinements when GW realised the dice originally required were not sold by GW any longer.

snottlebocket
19-09-2010, 21:18
I like the idea that the 'Spiders' are simply a forced construct by the Necromundan armed forces; everyone leaves their previous gang loyalties behind and joins the 'Spiders', because it's an easier mental leap than having people abandon gang life entirely and take up a military mindset, or taking the risk of inter-regimental warfare when a Goliath squad waltzes into an all-Escher barracks and starts flexing. A regiment sent out for normal Guard duty - being attached to other regiments to form an army, that kind of thing - could easily come from a single house (and with Cawdor and Escher, it'd probably be for the best); however I'd expect an all-Necromundan army of multiple regiments raised at the same time might adopt the 'Spider' gang instead. It'd also help with standard PDF work; the 'Spiders' are a gang of their own, and so won't be biased for or against a house (and can be trusted to work for Spire employers without a conflict of interest) when a rebellion needs to be put down, or an inter-House war gets too costly to the rest of the Hive.

Hive gang background seems to be pretty common for guard soldiers though. Throughout the imperial guard fluff and novels there's quite a few guard with gang or hive gang history before they joined the guard.

Conversely while rivalries and hatred are common as dirt between hive gangs, for the most part hive warfare is just a matter of business really. Hatred between houses is the sort of abstract hatred you get between factions when it goes back so far nobody even knows who started it or why. When the orks hit Armageddon the local hive gangs stood shoulder to shoulder.

When you're in the guard you got bigger things to worry about than house rivalries on a planet you'll never see again.

Askil the Undecided
19-09-2010, 21:50
The Spiders are a huge gang that the principle house Helmawr contracts with for security. The Spiders tithe members to the IG, the "spider raisings" are composed only of Spider gang members there is no problem of gang loyalty as inductees are already members of the Spiders.

Hunger
20-09-2010, 10:29
Or possibly, just possibly it might be because Necromunda was written before 40k was leeched of almost all it's quirks, comedy, depth and complexity and got simplified to the point that the near braindead can be taught to play it. Then got re-released with virtually no refinements when GW realised the dice originally required were not sold by GW any longer.

This is the reason why plasma weaponry in 40K today appears to be MkI. Its not MkI, the Imperial fighting forces have not 'regressed' in their tech level, its just that the ruleset has been simplified since the glorious days of 2nd Edition, and the interesting character of different weapons has been stripped away and homogenized so that pre-schoolers can grasp the rules quicker than you can say "but I wan't both boxes! Waaaa!" Plus GW sadly did away with the wonderful SF dice, presumably because they weren't as profitable as Space Marine codices.

Leftenant Gashrog
20-09-2010, 12:35
If it was just 40k I would agree with you wholeheartedly but its not. Inquisitor and Dark Heresy both have far more detail on weapons than 40k/Necromunda ever had - and they only have single-setting volatile plasma weapons.

Askil the Undecided
20-09-2010, 12:47
If it was just 40k I would agree with you wholeheartedly but its not. Inquisitor and Dark Heresy both have far more detail on weapons than 40k/Necromunda ever had - and they only have single-setting volatile plasma weapons.

True enough, but neither of these rulesets are based on 2nd ed 40k.

Sai-Lauren
20-09-2010, 12:50
The Houses themselves could be comparatively small - although still probably in the thousands of members. They're somewhere between merchant families and crime syndicates.

But the workers in the factories would probably be unrelated to the houses, and when a factory or settlement changes hands (either through a purchase, or the actions of the gangs), then the workers would just carry on with what they're doing - if they've any tattoos or similar that state who they work for, they may wind up having them obliterated (foremen might get it surgically removed or concealed, menial workers might just get a branding iron held on the site) and a new one added.

Aliarzathanil
25-09-2010, 06:57
Rogue Trader (FF RPG) has dual setting plasma guns.

The "glorious days of Second Edition?" Come on. The melee rules were tedious, the wargear was more broken and ruined games (virus bombs anyone?), overwatch discouraged movement (not as much as the shooting rules, however), and the models were honestly nowhere near as good as they are now, with the exception of Jes Goodwin's Eldar. I would have given up years ago had those glorious days continued. Plasma recharge wasn't a neat rule; it was a generally unnecessary complication that added nothing.

Askil the Undecided
25-09-2010, 10:31
Oh I'm not denying that playing 40k in 2nd ed was a laborious process of twelve thousand too many varables, however If you can't handle overwatch you are simply too restricted in your thinking to appreciate intelligence in a ruleset representing combat as anything but a turn based slog where any given unit on average only fires six times.

I'm simply claiming that for smaller scale skirmish games (like those it was originally designed for) it's far more interesting, varied and intelligent than later 40k editions that have a dull essentially modular structure that have replaced well thought out rules that required maybe second's application of intellect (like save modifiers) with arbitary limitation rules (like AP.)

All in all the editions since 2nd have been an attempt to streamline play so 40k can cater for the incoming "ADHD generation" kids who have had the "served up on a plate" media of TV, comupters and internet atrophying their imaginations through years of disuse.

Don't defend this streamlining as a good thing, it's insulting to the intelligence of gamers everywhere that the system has become such a spoonfed mush that a model can no longer simply throw a grenade or that a space marine will survive any blow exactly 2/3 of the time unless his armour is ignored completely.

Aliarzathanil
25-09-2010, 18:15
Sorry, but streamlining can be a good thing. Look as sustained fire dice. What purpose do they serve? If ten guys are firing using these dice they're going to roll pretty close to average. Giving them two shots each gives you the same result for the most part, skips an entire step, and doesn't leave you asking why anyone would use a gun that jammed that often.

I can't recall the last time I had a model fire a plasma pistol twice in a row. It might be never, actually. Recharging it a turn would just be another pointless counter.

Overwatch is a good idea, it was just poorly implemented.

AP values vs. modifiers is an odd argument. AP value, in general, makes armour slightly better. I suppose it comes down to how you feel about that. I wouldn't say one is vastly superior to the other though. AP values are quicker though.

I'd really love a detailed skirmish game with more varied tactics and possibly a different turn sequence. Sadly, Second Edition isn't that game and never was.

spetswalshe
25-09-2010, 20:11
All in all the editions since 2nd have been an attempt to streamline play so 40k can cater for the incoming "ADHD generation" kids who have had the "served up on a plate" media of TV, comupters and internet atrophying their imaginations through years of disuse.

Having grown up with TV, computers and the internet as my primary forms of indoor entertainment, I'd like to point out that my imagination hasn't atrophied in the slightest. I'm still capable of imagining a day when people don't assume that creativity requires you to spend hours in a basement rolling dice rather than hours in a basement rolling virtual dice, for example.

For the record, I agree with Aliarzathanil. But a detailed skirmish game doesn't mean intelligent design anymore than a simplified one means stupid design. I'd rather play Tetris over Final Fantasy 8.

MagosHereticus
26-09-2010, 10:44
True enough, but neither of these rulesets are based on 2nd ed 40k.

i thought necromunda was a refinement of laserburn?

AndrewGPaul
27-09-2010, 09:23
Only in that Necromunda was based on 2nd edition 40K which was based on Rogue Trader which took some elements from Laserburn. You may be thinking of the Confrontation rules, which here half-published in playtest form in White Dwarf in 1991-92.