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View Full Version : What makes Lizardmen so powerful? (cf. top armies discussion)



draccan
19-09-2010, 10:02
Hi all

Didn't want to hijack the thread about Top Armies, so let me ask here: What makes Lizardmen so powerful? Why did you rank it nr. 1 or top tier?

They have practically no shooting. Cold One Riders seem overpriced and very easy to kill off. Teradons can easily be killed by shooters, skirmishing archers for example. And Stegadons just require a cannon shot or two. A Slann with a templeguard cost easily above 800 points, which is equivalent of like 10 Empire mortars.

So what makes them stand apart? Is it just your imagination that ranks them high? In what regard are they powerful?

Just curious..

DarkstarSabre
19-09-2010, 10:14
The thing is - in this edition Points Denial and sheer survival are options. You do NOT get any VPs for those blocks of Saurus unless you kill every single one of them. So the Slann and TG block are an anvil. An anvil of T8, 4+ Regenning, 3+ vs. shooting combat monsters that with a specific standard and a BSB frog have something like a 99.6% chance of passing any given Ld based test.

Slann are also so much more potent in the magic phase now. The level to cast is useful, the ability to cripple your enemy's casting phase is amazing and the additional dice means you can control an entire magic phase. Add to that the ability to pick any lore they feel - Life being disgustingly powerful for points denial.

The units you listed - Cold Ones, Terradons, Stegadons..all these units are seeing less and less of the battlefield. Saurus, Salamanders, Chameleon Skinks all play trumps.

As a core infantry choice there is a lot in favour of the Saurus. Cold Blooded, S and T 4 and multiple attacks - considering you always get the attacks back from the front rank unless you are just one rank or take that many casualties and you have a frontage that competes with ranked up units with ease.

Lizardmen are not steam-rollers. They are not tricksy. They are anvils. They seem to be winning by raw survivability. When the majority of your army is T4, as any Dwarf will attest this is a valid option. When you have a terrifyingly effective mage who can buff and regrow units back up this is even more so.

They are not steam-rollers. They are survivable. And in 8th edition Points Denial is a very valid tactic. That 800 point block? That's 800 VPs you are never going to see unless you throw everything at it. And even then it will be harsh.

Ultimate Life Form
19-09-2010, 10:18
Yes, there are ways to easily deal with each troop type. However none of them works on all. What really makes the Lizardmen powerful is not their powerful troops, others have those as well, but the excellent synergy between them. The army is designed like a machine, a horribly efficient machine, and the units are the cogs and wheels and each fills its place perfectly. The whole is more than its parts. Or, to quote a famous Planeswalker;

“You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts.”

That is really the secret behind them. Point your cannons at the monsters, and the Cold One Riders will smash them up next turn. Shoot the Terradons and the Skink Skirmishers will be left unchecked. And the Slann... well, you can't kill it. Like, ever. Lore of Life for the win. And also it is a common misconception that Lizardmen have 'practically no shooting'. I dare you to face an all-Skink list with an army that has bad armor save, and make you eat your words.

Heimagoblin
19-09-2010, 10:46
Movement: The things that need it have it. Flanking forces such as salamamders, skinks, and stegadons all have movement 6.

Magic: Best army in the game for magic full stop. Life synergises perfectly with stegadons and sarus aswell as templeguard.

Shooting:The best shooting units in the game (salamanders) with chamolean's to asasinate war machines. Even there 5 point redirectors carry javelins.

Combat: So much stubborn going around, combined with ld10 cold blooded with BSB re-roll makes them damn near unbreakable. Stegadons provide fantastic hammers, especially when sustained by lore of life.

Freman Bloodglaive
19-09-2010, 12:02
Slann BSB and General with the standard of discipline has Leadership 10, and confers that on all the cold-blooded units within 12 inches of him.

Slann also are the most powerful magic users in the game (and unlike Teclis they're not fragile at all) and of course the basic magic lores are very powerful in this edition.

Saurus are designed to be tough in combat, and they are.

Skink are designed to be mobile and effective at range and they are.

Stegadon are like tanks.

So on and so forth.

Lizardmen are a team of specialists, and their function is so obvious no one can mess it up.

frapermax
19-09-2010, 12:16
Synergy is the key word here.
LM have it all. combat, shooting, movement, magic, support... You name it, they have a decent to very good unit for it. Life Magic is perfect for them, but the 'universal' Slann set-up could pick a lore with his eyes closed and still be very effective because he can almost always get 1-3 spells off.
LM opponents would need an army that is good in everything (high killiness, speed, good small arms fire and good high strength shooting, good anti-magic. All that and then doubled up. Not many can do this so well as LM (DE, empire, orcs and goblins come to mind...). They are not unbeatable, but if played well it will be hard to get enough points out of LM to make up for your losses.
No gunline or Death star build will hurt them very much, so you need a good combined arms force (like LM) to tackle them.
fpm

WarmbloodedLizard
19-09-2010, 12:18
I'm against clear placing of armies just yet. At the moment there are a lot of armies that would qualify for top tier (LM, DE, HE, Daemons, WoC, Dwarfs, Skaven, Empire) while everything else is pretty much middle tier. (except TK, which really doesn't have any lists that can compete with the top tier armies.)

As such, I do not rank LM strictly as THE top army, as there are quite a few builds they struggle against, but they are clearly in the top 4 or 5.



strength:
-one of the best magic phases: +1 die to cast, very good defense against Irresistible Force, possibility to use miscasts as a weapon, perfect synergy with lore of life
-very good short range shooting: chameleons(vs. unarmored/single model units such as warmachines or witch elves) and salamanders (vs. RnF+armored units).
-resilient: most things are T4 with good armorsaves
-points denial: TG block with slann are basically unbreakable.
-possible monster-spam: slann in TG + 3-4 stegadons + salamanders is easily possible in 2500pts lists


weakness:
-good shooting with war machines
-elite infantry
-strong anti magic
-Purple Sun (it's not easy to get it off against LM, but one well placed purple sun will often secure a win against them)


that's why Dwarfs and Empire can be pretty tough nuts to crack for Lizardmen. but I also don't see any of the other top tier armies ranking behind LM.

Lazarian
19-09-2010, 13:42
heavy shooting armies are actually easy for LM to deal with, chameleon skins rock, coupled with intense speed and mobility means your on your enemy before much of anything happens. All heavy shooting armies have a point where they cant do much against enemies. Toughness 8 templeguard dont die to a gunline, regrow their losses, and will never be evaporated. Purple sun is an issue however its typically never going off without a powerscroll.

ewar
19-09-2010, 13:48
Movement: The things that need it have it. Flanking forces such as salamamders, skinks, and stegadons all have movement 6.

Magic: Best army in the game for magic full stop. Life synergises perfectly with stegadons and sarus aswell as templeguard.

Shooting:The best shooting units in the game (salamanders) with chamolean's to asasinate war machines. Even there 5 point redirectors carry javelins.

Combat: So much stubborn going around, combined with ld10 cold blooded with BSB re-roll makes them damn near unbreakable. Stegadons provide fantastic hammers, especially when sustained by lore of life.

Hehe, exaggerate much!? ;)

Movement: They're not faster than any other army apart from Dwarfs. Nearly all armies have a combination of M6 and M4 troops, those that don't have M8 cavalry or flying monsters, which LM don't.

Shooting: Salamanders are very good - but best in the game? You have S5 Warpfire throwers/plague catapults/empire mortars/grudgethrowers/trebuchets ALL of which are as good or better. LM have reasonable shooting, but nothing you could base an army around, they're just good support units.

Magic, definitely up there with Teclis/Kairos, but I've found the complete unpredictability of the magic phase to be a big pain in this regard. Even with cupped hands my slann kills more temple guard than any enemy unit.

Combat - Saurus are solid, but not any better than chaos warriors/elf elites/dwarf elites. What advantage do we have over them that I don't know about?

Overall I think LM are being massively overhyped. They're a solid list and definitely one of the better ones, but there is not enough of a difference to warrant splitting out the armies into tiers at the moment. It is a very nice army book, and the units synergise well together, but it is definitely not a no brainer list like some of the haters are saying.

Some people are coming up with up to 5 different tiers, that is just ridiculous! There are basically 2 tiers: stronger and weaker. And within those each army stands a very good chance. I have't seen Woodies or TK in action yet, so maybe they're a class apart. But from what I hear, most people are theoryhammering their weakness rather than seeing it on a tabletop.

Lazarian
19-09-2010, 14:07
Yeah id second the stronger-weaker dynamic although LM are certainly in the stronger category. Ive just yet to see the temple guard unit die with the slann in it, I can see it easily happen its just hard since every time ive come across it the slann is Life without reservations and has yet to really take miscasts off the face.

The one thing that makes their magic passable is the fact if you roll very low on a magic phase several armies can pounce on them. 3-4 dice even with extra dice wont get much traction against high elves, empire or orc magic def when they all will probably have more dispel dice than your power dice total.

Other than that salamanders plus chameleon skinks are as much of a punishing shooting phase as anything outside of a legitimate gunline (DE, Dwarf or Empire). Couple that with really sexy combat troops and you can certainly call them stronger than your average bear ;)

WarmbloodedLizard
19-09-2010, 14:08
heavy shooting armies are actually easy for LM to deal with, chameleon skins rock, coupled with intense speed and mobility means your on your enemy before much of anything happens. All heavy shooting armies have a point where they cant do much against enemies. Toughness 8 templeguard dont die to a gunline, regrow their losses, and will never be evaporated. Purple sun is an issue however its typically never going off without a powerscroll.

a heavy shooty army with 1/3 of the points in shooting will hurt lizardmen a lot, especially when deployed well (so that the warmachines benefit from hard cover, making chameleons useless). (of course, they won't shoot at the TG block when it is T8...)

edit:
example of how to easily kill a TG block:
-dispel the right spells. (mainly throne of vines and flesh to stone.)
-shoot the TG down to 12-14 models.
-meet with elite infantry.
-after 2 rounds of combat, they are toast.

Lazarian
19-09-2010, 14:40
a heavy shooty army with 1/3 of the points in shooting will hurt lizardmen a lot, especially when deployed well (so that the warmachines benefit from hard cover, making chameleons useless). (of course, they won't shoot at the TG block when it is T8...)

edit:
example of how to easily kill a TG block:
-dispel the right spells. (mainly throne of vines and flesh to stone.)
-shoot the TG down to 12-14 models.
-meet with elite infantry.
-after 2 rounds of combat, they are toast.

To that though there isnt enough terrain on the board if you roll correctly to screen that many warmachines. The terrain chart actually features very little terrain that the warmachine would get cover from scouts who will end up behind them. Chamelion skins also will beat up warmachine crew if they charge in so its not much of a loss if they are in a tough spot. Your also shoving other threats at their shooting making it hard for the opponent to just want to hit one item. A unit of cold ones and a stegadon do wonders to insure that your enemy will not just throw everything they have at your main force

As far as just blowing up the TG block its going to be hard to dispel Slann spells on their turn and even if the +2 T version of flesh to stone gets off every turn then its T6 temple guard who will be getting regrowthed. Their elite infantry has to at least contend with a salamander shot or two so its not really hard to envision them being parred down. The elite infantry of other armies typically mathhammer and perform about as well as basic saurus so its not guaranteed they will bust up temple guard. Plus your not contractually obligated to charge and engage if your busted up. The beauty of your line should be that you will have more than one block and can throw a group of saurus at your enemy if the need arises.

Fortunately for fantasy LM arent foolproof, no army is. You can have bad missteps, and the army can and certainly does lose with regularity. Its just that the army features many great positives that not only work, but work well together and make it difficult for your opponent to handle everything they will be seeing. Even a magic phase of only 4 dice will result in 4 spell casts typically coming at the opponent. It just works, works very well in the hands of a skilled general and virtually no other armies feature their skillset.

Again not undefeatable, just stronger than your average army.

ewar
19-09-2010, 15:11
I don't see how people are getting their wonder-chamelions within range of warmachines on turn 1. They have to deploy more than 12" away from the enemy, so any centrally placed warmachines in normal 12" deployment zone will have to be either in the open or miles away on the flanks, given a decent deployment by the opposition.

They're good, don't get me wrong - but I think it's another case of internet hyperbole that 9 chameleons will auto destroy a warmachine turn 1, when in all likelihood they will be deployed a long way away or risking getting themselves killed turn 1.

theunwantedbeing
19-09-2010, 15:45
Chameleons can march 12", they'll be starting 12" from the enemy.
They can then shoot a further 12" with their blowpipes.

So it's not unreasonable for them to be able to hit war machines on turn 1.
Even 12 of them will need 6's to hit with their 24 shots, which is an average of 4 wounds.
Enough to kill a machine but not guaranteed at all.

ewar
19-09-2010, 16:00
Yeah, I understand that - but warmachines are generally deployed behind the front line, so they'll be behind their own troops which will mean either long range and/or hard cover. All of this is assuming you deploy directly in front of the machines which will normally be in the open. You then have to win first turn or your chameleons will be toasted in their first turn.

This isn't theoryhammer - I do use chameleons, but in real terms they will be hard pressed to get behind enemy lines.

Any opponent worth their warhammer wings will deploy their warmachines carefully to avoid all this - and now you can't move within an inch of an enemy model the skirmishers can't just slip between units the way they used to.

Anyway, this is all a bit off topic.

I think essentially LM are no more or less powerful than half a dozen other armies (DE, HE, Dwarfs, WoC, Skaven and Empire).

WarmbloodedLizard
19-09-2010, 17:29
To that though there isnt enough terrain on the board if you roll correctly to screen that many warmachines. The terrain chart actually features very little terrain that the warmachine would get cover from scouts who will end up behind them. Chamelion skins also will beat up warmachine crew if they charge in so its not much of a loss if they are in a tough spot. Your also shoving other threats at their shooting making it hard for the opponent to just want to hit one item. A unit of cold ones and a stegadon do wonders to insure that your enemy will not just throw everything they have at your main force


you do need to think a little when deploying. if you deploy correctly, chameleons will never start behind your lines. and warmachines don't need terrain to cover them up, you have plenty of units that can do that job, with TLoS and all.



As far as just blowing up the TG block its going to be hard to dispel Slann spells on their turn and even if the +2 T version of flesh to stone gets off every turn then its T6 temple guard who will be getting regrowthed.

you really do expect, that a gunline army only has 4 dispel dice, do you? :D empire and especially dwarfs have an average of 6+ DD. thats usually enough for ToV and flesh to stone.


Their elite infantry has to at least contend with a salamander shot or two so its not really hard to envision them being parred down. The elite infantry of other armies typically mathhammer and perform about as well as basic saurus so its not guaranteed they will bust up temple guard. Plus your not contractually obligated to charge and engage if your busted up. The beauty of your line should be that you will have more than one block and can throw a group of saurus at your enemy if the need arises.

salamanders are usually placed on the flanks, can misfire, can be shot down, can be charged, etc.
of course you use a unit that is used for killing power... not Greatswords without a WP. I'm talking flagellants, IC knights with a WP and flaming banner, Halberdiers with a WP, or at the very least Greatswords with a WP.
and don't forget that there can also be buffed with magic, not just TG.
(and if you're not in comabt, you'll just get shot up even more.)



Fortunately for fantasy LM arent foolproof, no army is. You can have bad missteps, and the army can and certainly does lose with regularity. Its just that the army features many great positives that not only work, but work well together and make it difficult for your opponent to handle everything they will be seeing. Even a magic phase of only 4 dice will result in 4 spell casts typically coming at the opponent. It just works, works very well in the hands of a skilled general and virtually no other armies feature their skillset.


of which two are useful (flesh to stone and earthblood), which will be the 1-2 spells that will be dispelled. so you're looking at about 0-1 useful spells. (when you roll low for Winds, it would be better to cast only 1 or 2 useful spells, but always get one of them)




Again not undefeatable, just stronger than your average army.

just as any other top army I and ewar listed above.

pkain762
19-09-2010, 17:55
someone above said lizards had best shooting in the game and i had to laugh....

THey have poison that's about it.... there's not a lot of high damage stuff... those sallies that you love... are about as effective as a warp fire thrower..... skaven shooting is easily more deadly.... maybe even more deadly to the skaven player shooting.... but it is way more deadly than a lizardmen shooting....

lets not even get into empire shooting via handgunners, hellblaster, steam tank, cannons or mortors

or dwarf shooting which would destroy your sallys and skirmishers... organ guns don't hit hell an organ gun is more reliable than the salamanders.

not to mention the higher bs of the HE or DE or WE

i think the only armies that suck worse than lizardmen at shooting are vampire counts, ogres, Woc, Boc and that is about it

I do agree though that lizards are sitting on the top tier.

due to the fact that the slann is now worth his points, and keeps the army tickin

kain

WarmbloodedLizard
19-09-2010, 18:11
due to the fact that the slann is now worth his points


It wasn't before? ^^

Orangecoke
19-09-2010, 20:15
I think they are close to being number one.

The slaan is the main reason IMO. He is borderline unkillable, can give you his miscast, can add a dice to every cast - he's just uber.

The Troops are pretty nearly unbreakable (saurus etc) if you position the bsb and general properly.

Two groups of poison blowpipe chameleon skinks in you back flanks are a major problem you can't afford to ignore most of the time.

Salamanders give my rats fits.

Lazarian
19-09-2010, 20:38
Having played against and with LM and having used a ton of fast cav and scouts chameleon skinks work and are just as reliable as anything else currently in Fantasy (in armies that I typically play I field gnoblar trappers, dark riders, shades, steeds of slannesh amongst various lists) They deploy 12" away, can march 12" fully fire, typically moving around whatever screen you position. Unless your going for a full fledge castle where every angle you own is blocked off marching skinks will get to where you need to go, or worse draw fire which is also a win since its turn 3 max when the templeguard are talking to your enemy about insurance rates on their front door. Those of you who think somehow two or so scouting poison attacking units seemingly have no value have either had a bad game of frustration or simply dont field them much. The ability to march and fire is very rough. Poison just exasperates the situation since most/all warmachines have no save to speak of, one volley of 24 on average deals enough wounds to kill off your typical 4 man crew warmachine (yes 1 wound more than all but a few of them). After you pick of one or two they will deal with them. Ive yet to see gnoblar trappers even not make up their points in annoyance yet they seldom kill more than one warmachine. Drawing fire and making your opponent waste shots is a very vaulable and worthwhile tool for them.

As far as salamanders go yes they can be shot, but you can screen them just as well, they can be positioned behind or around blocks where they cant be shot or menaced that easily. Furthermore if they are devoting that much attention to them again your temple guard are getting valet parking to their battle lines.

Again, not foolproof, just really really good. Far from unbeatable but dang theres so much to love in that list.

Lazarian
19-09-2010, 20:54
someone above said lizards had best shooting in the game and i had to laugh....

THey have poison that's about it.... there's not a lot of high damage stuff... those sallies that you love... are about as effective as a warp fire thrower..... skaven shooting is easily more deadly.... maybe even more deadly to the skaven player shooting.... but it is way more deadly than a lizardmen shooting....

lets not even get into empire shooting via handgunners, hellblaster, steam tank, cannons or mortors

or dwarf shooting which would destroy your sallys and skirmishers... organ guns don't hit hell an organ gun is more reliable than the salamanders.

not to mention the higher bs of the HE or DE or WE

i think the only armies that suck worse than lizardmen at shooting are vampire counts, ogres, Woc, Boc and that is about it

I do agree though that lizards are sitting on the top tier.

due to the fact that the slann is now worth his points, and keeps the army tickin

kain

Poison makes them a good shooting army. I put them better right now than Wood Elves or High Elves on the strength of salamanders alone. Poison scouts are going to inflict more casualties than an equivalent amount of points of wood/high elf archers. Bolt Throwers with 2 wounds are now not a reasonable investment either.

The only armies that for certain have better shooting would be Empire/ Dwarves/ Skaven (they are the shooting armies so no question although many Skaven lists only have warmachines and lose their shooting punch quickly since weapon teams die in very short order to skink clouds). Tomb Kings, Orcs and the Elf armies can get equivalent shooting but none of them have salamanders which are the best shooting option of all the listed armies. All other lists have decidedly inferior shooting phases. Since its unlikely your going to be facing a gunline at all times your going to outshoot the majority of your enemies and more than likely out hand to hand gunlines by a wide margin... This is very powerful. Not having to roll a wound is good times, poison is insanely powerful of an ability for shooters and chameleon skinks have the BS to insure they will always hit on a 6 or better, thus ignoring that whole messy 'rolling to wound' phase.

WarmbloodedLizard
19-09-2010, 21:07
Having played against and with LM and having used a ton of fast cav and scouts chameleon skinks work and are just as reliable as anything else currently in Fantasy (in armies that I typically play I field gnoblar trappers, dark riders, shades, steeds of slannesh amongst various lists) They deploy 12" away, can march 12" fully fire, typically moving around whatever screen you position. Unless your going for a full fledge castle where every angle you own is blocked off marching skinks will get to where you need to go, or worse draw fire which is also a win since its turn 3 max when the templeguard are talking to your enemy about insurance rates on their front door. Those of you who think somehow two or so scouting poison attacking units seemingly have no value have either had a bad game of frustration or simply dont field them much. The ability to march and fire is very rough. Poison just exasperates the situation since most/all warmachines have no save to speak of, one volley of 24 on average deals enough wounds to kill off your typical 4 man crew warmachine (yes 1 wound more than all but a few of them). After you pick of one or two they will deal with them. Ive yet to see gnoblar trappers even not make up their points in annoyance yet they seldom kill more than one warmachine. Drawing fire and making your opponent waste shots is a very vaulable and worthwhile tool for them.

As far as salamanders go yes they can be shot, but you can screen them just as well, they can be positioned behind or around blocks where they cant be shot or menaced that easily. Furthermore if they are devoting that much attention to them again your temple guard are getting valet parking to their battle lines.

Again, not foolproof, just really really good. Far from unbeatable but dang theres so much to love in that list.

I know how good they are. I always field 3 units of 6-7. they are, however, not unstoppable. when you deploy your army right, they will not easily get there. if you leave 2" gaps between your units, there is no way they can walk through. they will have to deploy in the middle of the table, 12" away from the enemy. warmachines will be behind the units. there is NO WAY for the chameleons to do any damage to those warmachines turn 1. they will only get at them turn 2 at the earliest. (of course, most people suck at deploying units and you will be able to move around them somehow. but that doesn't make them uber in any way.)

salamanders are another thing. they are the second best unit in the LM army after the slann. but they are still killable. depending on how many salamanders you take per unit. If you take one, the 1-2 canonshots neded will not be a waste. if you take more, dedicating a fast hitty unit to them is a good idea. but even just binding them in combat with a scout unit is ok, too.
and another thing is: they will rarely be deployed in the middle, where the templeguard and your anti-TG unit will be positioned.

Lazarian
19-09-2010, 21:13
I know how good they are. I always field 3 units of 6-7. they are, however, not unstoppable. when you deploy your army right, they will not easily get there. if you leave 2" gaps between your units, there is no way they can walk through. they will have to deploy in the middle of the table, 12" away from the enemy. warmachines will be behind the units. there is NO WAY for the chameleons to do any damage to those warmachines turn 1. they will only get at them turn 2 at the earliest. (of course, most people suck at deploying units and you will be able to move around them somehow. but that doesn't make them uber in any way.)

salamanders are another thing. they are the second best unit in the LM army after the slann. but they are still killable. depending on how many salamanders you take per unit. If you take one, the 1-2 canonshots neded will not be a waste. if you take more, dedicating a fast hitty unit to them is a good idea. but even just binding them in combat with a scout unit is ok, too.
and another thing is: they will rarely be deployed in the middle, where the templeguard and your anti-TG unit will be positioned.

Well i agree with you, they arent unstoppable, however they are as good if not better options than any other armies in all of fantasy get so its not really doom and gloom now is it?

If you were making an army book from all selections in all of fantasy salamanders go in that book, chameleon skins probably beat out shades and go in there as well.

WarmbloodedLizard
19-09-2010, 21:38
chameleons are extremely specialized, while shades are MUCH more versatile. it completely depends on the rest of the army and on what they are facing to determine which one is better. but raw utility, I don't see chameleons winning over shades. chameleons completely lack close combat abilitiy. shades could just charge the warmachine in question and easily kill the crew turn 1. chameleons can tie it up (and against dwarfes, they can forget it).

as for their shooting tier, I think they are pretty much middle of the road.

Souppilgrim
20-09-2010, 04:50
In this thread: Lizardmen playing down their army. No one wants to believe that it is anything but THEIR own personal skill that wins games.

Salamanders are amazing, and are one of the best shooting units in the game. It's not even debatable.

Kudzu
20-09-2010, 05:03
In this thread: Lizardmen playing down their army. No one wants to believe that it is anything but THEIR own personal skill that wins games.

Salamanders are amazing, and are one of the best shooting units in the game. It's not even debatable.

Depends on what you're shooting at. Elves of all flavors are toast, Chaos knights...not so much-- as I have learned to my dismay.

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-09-2010, 06:22
L.M are top tier and in my opinion definitely tied with dwarfs and a few others. However, if I hear about a unkillable Slann again, I'm going to vomit.

If you have any heavy cav. that I don't say overuns small units of skinks, sallies, etc. . . and ends up behind L.M, all one has to do is reform next turn and have a anvil unit engaged to the front a turn before, and charge the rear of the T.G unit. If you kill I believe 3 T.G and one can fit oh, I don't know 3-4 cav. sized models with D.P or Chaos Knights, S5 with 12-15 attacks coming your way, = dead kermit.

Ultimate Life Form
20-09-2010, 06:31
If you have any heavy cav. that I don't say overuns small units of skinks, sallies, etc. . . and ends up behind L.M, all one has to do is reform next turn and have a anvil unit engaged to the front a turn before, and charge the rear of the T.G unit. If you kill I believe 3 T.G and one can fit oh, I don't know 3-4 cav. sized models with D.P or Chaos Knights, S5 with 12-15 attacks coming your way, = dead kermit.

I see you take great pride in the last time you beat up an entirely incompetent Lizardmen player? A mighty achievement indeed.

DarkstarSabre
20-09-2010, 08:06
L.M are top tier and in my opinion definitely tied with dwarfs and a few others. However, if I hear about a unkillable Slann again, I'm going to vomit.

If you have any heavy cav. that I don't say overuns small units of skinks, sallies, etc. . . and ends up behind L.M, all one has to do is reform next turn and have a anvil unit engaged to the front a turn before, and charge the rear of the T.G unit. If you kill I believe 3 T.G and one can fit oh, I don't know 3-4 cav. sized models with D.P or Chaos Knights, S5 with 12-15 attacks coming your way, = dead kermit.

Do you honestly believe there's people out there who field less than 2 ranks of rear Frog support in 2000+ games? If there are then, yeah, it's as ULF said. Congrats. You beat someone who was generally incompetent.

The only time I see units that are 'small' and have a single rank of support for the Frog at the rear is in 1500 or less - generally they have to get smaller to fit in at that level. If you're fielding a respectable sized unit of Chaos Knights in that scale of game then you're not fielding a whole lot else.

WarmbloodedLizard
20-09-2010, 09:55
If you kill I believe 3 T.G

normal TG size in 8th is 20-22, so if you haven't whittled them down, you will have to kill quite a few. against TG, you don't need anvils, you need killy units. if you get 2 killy units engaged with TG, they are done for. (not easy of course, because the main block is flanked by saurusblocks)

@Soupdeliveryguy:
no, we're just correcting the mistake of thinking lizardmen were THE top army. no one ever said we were not A top army. they still might be the top army but that's not something we can say after 2-3 months. at the moment, they are just a regular top tier army. people just don't know their weaknesses and aren't used to fighting them, yet. (as you can see when someone speaks of unkillable slann or calling salamanders THE best shooty unit)

N810
20-09-2010, 16:59
Just got my scaley hide handed to me by Tecelelis and his huge blocks of speamen the other day. :(

draccan
20-09-2010, 17:36
So... a few people claim that Salamanders are SO good. Their template is smaller than a mortar, costs about the same, is imprecise, short distance..

What makes the Salamander so good and how do you use it battle?

MagneticFreak
20-09-2010, 17:58
Lizardmen are Top Tier because they have no obvious weakpoint. This has been mentionned by several other posters above, and honestly I think its the only real answer.

Chameleons are the new and shiny toy of LM players. They are a suprise for a lot of players that rarely faced scouts before. In 7th, they were simply expensive skinks, and did very little more. Now that nothing is immune to poison, they excel at hunting warmachines. I dont see them as being any better than other scouts/it came from below units.

CaliforniaGamer
20-09-2010, 18:07
No one has yet convinced me LM are top tier. The low init on the saurus/slann makes them so suspectible to Powerscroll+Purple Sun that Im tentatively thinking that is a dealbreaker for top tier.

I think top tier MUST have the following:
~core blocks and characters with better than average init. and strength values to weather Purple Sun and Dwellers. (LM fails here)
~access to cast Purple Sun or Dwellers (or the dreaded 13th in the case of Skaven). (LM wins here)

I think only WoC, DoC and maybe..perhaps Skaven (although they have low str values, they might be able to weather this with sheer numbers).

StarFyre
20-09-2010, 18:11
I would imagine Skaven as being surely in the top teir and with more toys to play with than lizardmen.

Sanjay

WarmbloodedLizard
20-09-2010, 18:20
No one has yet convinced me LM are top tier. The low init on the saurus/slann makes them so suspectible to Powerscroll+Purple Sun that Im tentatively thinking that is a dealbreaker for top tier.

I think top tier MUST have the following:
~core blocks and characters with better than average init. and strength values to weather Purple Sun and Dwellers. (LM fails here)
~access to cast Purple Sun or Dwellers (or the dreaded 13th in the case of Skaven). (LM wins here)

I think only WoC, DoC and maybe..perhaps Skaven (although they have low str values, they might be able to weather this with sheer numbers).

arguing that LM are not top tier is actually even more ridiculous than arguing that they are the top whfb army...

you extremely overvalue the importance of init. all that has happend is, that init now is somewhat on par with the other stats. it's still less important than strength and toughness. and lizardmen have an average of about S4, thats higher than most armies.

LM have other means to combat uberspells. they might struggle against the powerscroll, but who doesn't (and most tournaments don't allow it anyway)? for everything else there is cogitation, giving you a shot to dispell the uberspells. (and it's not like death is that a powerful lore against lizardmen. it has one (very) dangerous spell, but that's it. (if you want an anti-lizardmen lore, take shadows. MUCH more potent)

CaliforniaGamer
20-09-2010, 18:26
LM has no answer to a rd1 flyer with Powerscroll+Purple Sun sending it down their batteline wiping out so many points worth of models that the game is effectively over. I dont need to see it happen 20 more times in a tournament setting to realize this is broke.

Nope, initiative is now an incredibly important stat like it has never been before.

I havent seen any tournament anywhere ban powerscroll. If they do exist please send me a link so I can circulate that around here.

N810
20-09-2010, 18:28
arguing that LM are not top tier is actually even more ridiculous than arguing that they are the top whfb army...

you extremely overvalue the importance of init. all that has happend is, that init now is somewhat on par with the other stats. it's still less important than strength and toughness. and lizardmen have an average of about S4, thats higher than most armies.

LM have other means to combat uberspells. they might struggle against the powerscroll, but who doesn't (and most tournaments don't allow it anyway)? for everything else there is cogitation, giving you a shot to dispell the uberspells. (and it's not like death is that a powerful lore against lizardmen. it has one (very) dangerous spell, but that's it. (if you want an anti-lizardmen lore, take shadows. MUCH more potent)

Yea tell me about it PoS single handedly caused me to to go from a tie to a masacre loss. :(

Gunless Ganger
20-09-2010, 18:33
So... a few people claim that Salamanders are SO good. Their template is smaller than a mortar, costs about the same, is imprecise, short distance..

What makes the Salamander so good and how do you use it battle?

Errr I'll have a go at this one. I've loved Salamanders throughout every iteration of the Lizardmen list (Anyone remember D6 S5 hits) and always find room for 3. I have to say they really are amazing in 8th - probably hands down the best they've ever been.

a) Template smaller than a mortar: Maybe - I think they're pretty close if you measured the actual area. But it doesn't matter really, you need/like the extra length of the flame template so that if you over/under shoot you'll still hit a unit. With no partials you can still mess up most of a unit anyway. With the auto panic test with one wound you're not often looking for tons of kills - just one.

b) Imprecise - I have to flat out say ... no way. If positioned correctly you should end up only missing your target(s) on one die face (plus the misfire).

c) Short Distance - Well... yes they're not a 60inch stone thrower I grant you. But with the ability to march 12" and STILL fire with a 6" flame template (+2 to 10 inches) you are very fast and mobile and can be where you need to be and hit the things you need to hit.

d) Vs fast cav and skirmishers - If a mortar is charged by some fast cav or skirmishers it's probably dead. If some fast cav charge salamanders (as everyone seems to be pointing out as if it were their death sentence) I'd place my money on the sallies. Fear causing, 3 wounds each, T4, 2 attacks each, at Init 4. Many an opponent has charged in thinking to do away with my "minor" annoying sallies only to watch his fast light troops get eaten alive.

In short they are very very good for what they do. I used them in 7th edition and caused much grief to many a ranked up unit now in 8th edition they gain:
i) march and shoot
ii) no partial templates
iii) more targets - more large ranked up infantry
iv) changes to monster handler rules mean all shots vs. sallies T4 - then 5+ "ward" save to have it just kill one of the plentiful crew instead.

They are fantastic.

~ GG

Heimagoblin
20-09-2010, 20:29
Don't forget salamanders are quite good in combat!

DarkstarSabre
20-09-2010, 21:06
Don't forget salamanders are quite good in combat!

This.

This is why I rate Sallies.

That and the -3 save modifier.

Yes. -3.

I've had the joy of watching a Dwarf player suddenly prioritise on the Salamanders simply because he did not want his Ironbreakers to start dropping like flies to that!