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Tarax
08-03-2006, 09:09
In Chronicles 2004, p. 113, it has a little bit about characters on different bases in units. This generally concerns characters on mounts in infantry units or on large monster bases (50x50mm) in units.

But what about characters on small monster bases (40x40mm)? Quite easy if it's a infantry unit on 20x20mm bases, but not that easy with 25x25mm bases or cavalry bases for that matter.

I'm also thinking of a Bretonnian character in Royal Pegasus in a Lance formation. He would be in the front rank, but would he replace 1 or 2 models? And how about the second rank when charging?
I know most monster mounts are flyers with a low M-value, but not the Pegasus.

Any opinions? I'm not asking for rules.

SuperBeast
08-03-2006, 10:14
This is made far easier by the fact that GW are making all monster mounts 50x50mm bases...
The pegasus is a bit of a strange one though. TBH, I'd just mount it on a monster base for the sake of ease and replace two models, but if you're retaining it on a 40mm base the simple answer is that it would replace a single model in the front rank, and you simply wind up with a 15mm wider front rank.
Based on the fact that, using the example of the cavalryman in the infantry unit the base has to be at least double the dimension for it to qualify as two models (ie. it counts as 1 model in the file, but two models in the rank), and the models kinda just shuffle around it.
2nd Rank would be as normal - the attacks come from models who are on the outside of the lance.

No specific rule or anything as justification, but folowing the general theme set by the article in the chronicles.

But why the hell you'd want to ground a flyer into a unit of knights is beyond me...

Festus
08-03-2006, 15:19
Hi

Think it terms of *places* within a unit.

A US1 model on 25mm or 20mm base takes up one *place*, a cavalry model takes up 2 *places*, a monster - whether on a 40mm or 50mm base - takes up 4 *places*.

Just fudge the lines a bit if necessary.

Greetings
Festus

Izram
08-03-2006, 17:58
What happens when the rider dies? Does the monster stay with the unit or does he leave. If he leaves, when can/must he?

Festus
08-03-2006, 18:15
Hi

Only characters can join units. As soon as the character riding the monster dies, the Monster can no longer be part of a unit.

And: Read the monster reaction table in the BRB, this will clear a few things up.

Greetings
Festus

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-03-2006, 19:33
This is made far easier by the fact that GW are making all monster mounts 50x50mm bases...


Since when? A Pegasus is on a 40mm base, and I can't really see that changing. The large target monsters are on 50mm bases. But the smaller ones are all on 40mm bases.

And of course, it's not easier at all with a 50mm base if your joining a 20mm base unit...

SuperBeast
08-03-2006, 23:33
UNIT pegasi come on 40mm bases. Same as all flying cavalry.
It's just that, at present, there is no "character" alternative but to use a normal pegasus for the base.
Going on statements Gav has made before about base sizes, I firmly believe this is an oversight at present.

Other than that, name a single monstrous mount that now comes with a 40mm base... Time's up. :D
Base size has no effect on large target-ness.
Off the top of my head... Daemonic Steeds, Unicorns, Great Stag and Malhandir are all 50mm bases, and they aren't large targets.
In fact, pegasi are the only non-cavalry (i.e. no separate wounds characteristic) mounts available to any character in the game that come on a base smaller than 50mm.
The only one that may differ here is the new WE great eagle character, but I recokon that'll be a 50mm too.

As for the 20mm thing, no. But I was speaking from the point of view that in most circumstances, a mounted character will be joining a cavalry unit if any.
But the same applies - it becomes 4 'models' in the unit, and the other models shuffle around as best as the player can arrange.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-03-2006, 05:43
Well, the current rules place a Pegasus on a 40mm base(the base size chart that is the official rules on what base size models are on), so it's not just a model issue.
And there is at least one other monster mount on 40mm bases, the Great Eagle.

Chaos demon mounts are on 50mm bases thats correct, but that makes sense in an army thats exclusively 25mm bases(or larger).

A mounted character on horse will most often join a cavalry unit yes(but not always, there is a whole lot of tactics evolving around placing them in infantry units), but I don't think you can make the same assumption for monsters. Most of the time they won't be in units at all, and when they are, they are just as likely to join an infantry unit as they are a cavalry unit.

SuperBeast
09-03-2006, 07:59
I was just going by what's been stated by Gav in the past.

..and the great eagle mount cannot really be cited as an example as it's not currently available; it may well be on a 40mm base in future - we don't know yet.
If it is, it would mean that non-large target flying mounts go on 40mm bases.
Which to my mind makes things easier to remember, because there's then fewer exceptions.
I don't think there is any logic regarding base sizes comparable to the rest of the army, other than that, more coincidence.

Subscan
09-03-2006, 08:24
imho all monsters gotta be placed on 50mm bases. everything else would be unfair! why should a demonic steed be placed on 50mm and a pegasus not?
of course you can argue, itīs because you get the base with the model.
but tell you what: i bought karl franz on griffon a coupple of years ago, and i got a 40mm base with it. still, itīs more than clear that he needs a 50mm base. so thatīs where i put him on...

SuperBeast
09-03-2006, 08:26
Gav's actual wording is that models should be put on whatever size base they come with. You are free to put them on a larger base, but not a smaller one.

EvC
09-03-2006, 15:34
My VC general is on a Winged Nightmare formed out of a pegasus (It's a great-looking model, suits my noble count), but since the pegasus model came with a 40mm base and I wasn't willing to buy a whole bag of 50mm bases to make up for the size, I just mounted him on the 40mm base.

I won't even consider using him in tournaments, but in friendly games I don't even bother asking my opponents before wheeling him out; closest thing I got to a negative comment was that the model as a whole is not very representative of a "large target" (But then neither are any of the Daemonic mounts). I do make up for the disparity however, in that I take the Talon of Death for my count, which affects as many models as it's in B2B contact with, so in effect I'm handicapping myself...

SuperBeast
09-03-2006, 15:38
...except daemonic mounts, IIRC, are not Large targets?

Bortus
09-03-2006, 16:33
Wow he actually runs ole Karl Franz? Lotta points bud.......but I bet he looks cool on the board huh bub?

EvC
09-03-2006, 17:27
...except daemonic mounts, IIRC, are not Large targets?

Oh, you're right, I think. I've seen some people say they are before, but didn't check until now...

SuperBeast
10-03-2006, 00:16
No probs.

I tend to avoid mounting my characters anyway - I prefer to have them on the ground with the grunts.
Harder to pick out that way. :D

Tarax
11-03-2006, 11:02
Looking at the Base-size reference sheet I noticed that most monster mounts that give 3+1 US are on 40x40mm bases (except Deamonic Mounts, with probably the reason given above). Other than that they are 50x50mm.

Another noted exception is the Unicorn ridden by the Fay Enchantress. She also comes with a 50x50mm base. Probably because when she will join a unit it will be a unit of Knights.

Anyway, no-one has given me a clear answer how they will let me put my Pagasus mounted character join a unit of Bretonnian Knights. Perhaps I should let my opponent decide, ie start with the best position.

Griefbringer
11-03-2006, 11:46
Why would you really want to put a character accompanying a unit of knights on a pegasus - couldn't he equally well just ride a normal horse?

Festus
11-03-2006, 19:32
Hi

Anyway, no-one has given me a clear answer how they will let me put my Pagasus mounted character join a unit of Bretonnian Knights. Perhaps I should let my opponent decide, ie start with the best position.

Thanks for calling me *no-one*, although I prefer *nobody* :evilgrin:

Again: A Pegasus mounted character will take up the space of two knights, as he is on a monsterbase (40mm or 50mm).

Festus

Tarax
12-03-2006, 12:41
Hi


Thanks for calling me *no-one*, although I prefer *nobody* :evilgrin:

Again: A Pegasus mounted character will take up the space of two knights, as he is on a monsterbase (40mm or 50mm).

Festus

Thanks for answering 'nobody' ;) :D , this will probably the way I'd play it too.

As for the reason why. Why not? The Character might enjoy the relative savety from his fellow Knights. Also, because of the Lance-formation, it might be a rather cheap way to fill out the unit, especially when it's only a small unit of say 5 Errant Knights. (Oops, perhaps to much tactical information :) )

As for Movement, the Pegasus has the same M-value as Warhorses, ie 8, so no problem there.

SuperBeast
12-03-2006, 13:14
You do understand, of course, that he receives no relative safety from his fellow knights as he's on a different base size and can be targetted freely?
(Chronicles 2004, page 81, "Characters in Units", 3rd Bullet point.)