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View Full Version : Do units "slide" after the charge in order to maximise models in btb.



Vsurma
24-09-2010, 08:16
Imagine the following situation:

Unit A charges unit B, both units are 6 wide.

However there is a unit C blocking the path, using the maximum of one wheel unit A can only get 3 models into BTB.

Does the combat stay as such with 3 models in btb or do you "slide" in order to maximize if this is possible?

p20 has a section on "aligning to the enemy", however this doesn't seem to apply to the situation I described. Aligning and sliding seem two different things to me.

Any thoughts? My games at the last few tournaments have seen people play this both ways, with free slides and without.

Page references would be good.

narrativium
24-09-2010, 08:23
You don't slide. You wheel once to reach the enemy and once to close the door, and you maximise to get as many as possible in while following that rule. If that means you clip then you clip.

I can't really give you a page reference for a section (sliding) which doesn't exist.

theorox
24-09-2010, 08:49
That's nice. Sliding always seemed a bit...weird to me. :)

Theo

eyescrossed
24-09-2010, 08:53
The need to slide has been vastly minimized since last edition, though.

Citadel97501
24-09-2010, 10:07
I agree there is no set rule to cause "sliding", however many players use the rule in friendly games, because getting the most models in the fight allows for more fun.

To reiterate in the shortest way possible. . .
(In Troll Accent) = Sliding good, clipping bad. .

Leth Shyish'phak
24-09-2010, 18:49
Everyone in my GW uses sliding. To be honest, I'm not sure if more than a few of them even know its not in the rules. :p Like many other strange things that happen and no one can be bothered to argue with.

T10
24-09-2010, 19:13
At the end of each round of close combat you can perform a reform. As long as you don't move models out of close combat* you can rearrange your unit pretty much however you like: The unit is not required to keep the centre of the unit in the same place.

If two units are "clipping", for example two units with 5x5 formations each only has a single model in based contact with the enemy, either player can decide to reform to increase the number of models fighting.

Of course you can't reform if there isn't room, so if you are blocked in then your opponent can choose to maintain the clipping.

-T10

Mr_Rose
25-09-2010, 00:28
That's nice. Sliding always seemed a bit...weird to me. :)

Theo
That's because it was never a rule. In fact in sixth edition it was specifically stated that the rules disallowed sliding (in one of the designer's notes articles IIRC) but that it was a pretty common house-rule to prevent people making stupid clipping charges on purpose.

I never found it necessary because I took pains to avoid playing asses, but some folk around here seemed to think it was not just necessary but an actual rule that you had to slide any combat, no matter how great the properly aligned overlap was.

Vsurma
25-09-2010, 17:14
At the end of each round of close combat you can perform a reform. As long as you don't move models out of close combat* you can rearrange your unit pretty much however you like: The unit is not required to keep the centre of the unit in the same place.

If two units are "clipping", for example two units with 5x5 formations each only has a single model in based contact with the enemy, either player can decide to reform to increase the number of models fighting.

Of course you can't reform if there isn't room, so if you are blocked in then your opponent can choose to maintain the clipping.

-T10

I don't see how it could work the way you pictured, combat reform on p55 states that you can extend your frontage to bring more units into CC, but it gives no way to "slide"

Still useful of course, getting more attacks in, but it does come at the cost of losing ranks, something you would not have to deal with if you could slide.

mishari26
25-09-2010, 17:40
...The unit is not required to keep the centre of the unit in the same place.

-T10

I'm afraid this not entirely correct. The center of the unit has to stay unmoved during the reform, so this stops sliding.

p.14 Reform, 3rd paragraph under.

Keeping the centre point of the unit the same,

p.55 Combat Reforms states it is a Standard Reform (p.14) except for the fact that it can be made while in combat, and that you can not decrease the number of models already engaged in combat. no other restrictions or exceptions are mentioned to allow the centre of the unit to slide.

Mr_Rose
25-09-2010, 17:50
I don't see how it could work the way you pictured, combat reform on p55 states that you can extend your frontage to bring more units into CC, but it gives no way to "slide"

Still useful of course, getting more attacks in, but it does come at the cost of losing ranks, something you would not have to deal with if you could slide.

I'm afraid this not entirely correct. The center of the unit has to stay unmoved during the reform, so this stops sliding.
p.55 Combat Reforms states it is a Standard Reform (p.14) except for the fact that it can be made while in combat, and that you can not decrease the number of models already engaged in combat. no other restrictions or exceptions are mentioned to allow the centre of the unit to slide.
Remember to check the FAQs before posting:

Page 55 – Reforming From Victory
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to “A combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not have to stay in the same place.”
Change “[...]is one special restriction[...]” to “[...]are two special restrictions[...]” and change “[...]was made[...]” to “[...]was made, and the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with[...]” in the second paragraph.

SiNNiX
25-09-2010, 22:19
Yeah, it was FAQ'd so that combat reforms don't follow the same restrictions. Once the two units become engaged in combat, their alignment is solely based on the charging unit's wheel and close the door manoeuvres. Then, at the end of the combat phase, both sides have a chance to perform a combat reform following all rules given in both the BRB and FAQ. This reform can be used to essentially "slide" your unit across the enemy's frontal to maximize the amount of models in base-to-base contact.

wilsongrahams
25-09-2010, 22:57
This feels right to me - and more realistic anyway - you charge in recklessly waving your sword and the rest of your lot gather in afterwards til you are all joined in melee - otherwise sliding on the charge would be like 'Charge! Ooh hang on ere a minute lads, Bob's not ran off that way yet, and Bert can't decide who he wants to fight, best all shuffle along a bit and take whomever is infront of us eh?'.

SiNNiX
26-09-2010, 12:17
otherwise sliding on the charge would be like 'Charge! Ooh hang on ere a minute lads, Bob's not ran off that way yet, and Bert can't decide who he wants to fight, best all shuffle along a bit and take whomever is infront of us eh?'.

Haha! I pictured that in my head and it seemed very realistic!

T10
26-09-2010, 17:30
Just to recap: Using the combat reform to reposition the unit (in effect: "slide") is allowed. This is because the FAQ entry that allows us to disregard the criteria that the centre of the unit must remain the same.

-T10

Tregar
26-09-2010, 21:39
Is that right? I remember reading the errata and all the "change [] to... and ... to [] while ignoring []" and couldn't be bothered to check up in my book. Glad to know that "sliding" has been made legal for subsequent rounds of combat!

T10
26-09-2010, 23:29
Yes. The Combat Reform is a Reform with certain exceptions. The Reform:

* The centre of the unit must remain the same.
* Each model may not move more than twice their Movement rate.

The recent FAQ has removed the first restriction. This makes a certain amount of sense as adding or removing ranks will move the front rank of the unit forward or back if you maintain the centre. E.g.: A unit of 6x4 models with 20mm bases is 120mm wide and 80mm deep. Change this to a 4x6 formation and the unit is 120mm deep, moving the front of the unit forward 20mm. Change to 12x2 and the unit effectively moves back 20mm.

Other than this the combat reform requires that you don't use the reform to get models (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy. You can re-arrange your models that are in base contact so that they are in contact with different enemies - e.g. you can move your hero into base contact with a wizard in order to kill him in the following close combat phase.

-T10

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 02:15
Ironically, I had to explain these rules to one of my opponents at yesterday's tournament. Unfortunately for me, informing him that he didn't have to keep the center of the unit the same ended up making me lose the combat and flee several turns later... :mad: