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Ironmonger
24-09-2010, 21:48
Ok, so the last thread that I had going concerning the viability of pikes in 8th ed was just that: pikes. This thread, I'm hoping, will cast a wider net as it concerns the usage and viability of all DoW in 8th ed.

Thoughts, suggestions and comments welcome (though at least for my part I'd prefer discussions of 'maffhammer' to be kept to the periphery). For those who are wondering this tactica is based around the final legal PDF put out by Cavatore.

I'll be trying a build out tomorrow based around the 'pike and shot' set up outlined in the other thread (skirmishing pistoliers, big offensive blocks of pikemen, some metal wizards, paymaster + Halbardiers, and 3 galloper guns). The second list I'll be building will be empire with a few 'pike and shot' and galloper units.

Sound off.

Peril
24-09-2010, 22:05
I definitely thing the duellists are helped by march-and-shoot and the 12" pistol range. Also the "everyone stands-and-shoots" is nice too, if you take a large unit.

All the normal units got better in the normal ways (supporting attacks, etc). As for RoR:

Giants of Albion can use Inspiring Presence! No more LD7 from the druid, and they don't eat rare slots anymore!!

20 (10x2) strong Slayer Pirates firing multiple shots in 2 ranks would be an interesting roadblock (they can't march-and-shoot, but they do get a TON of shots and always stand-and-shoot).

Truthsayer/Dark Emmisary - not sure if you can use them still, but the character slot changes makes them more attractive.

That's all I got at the moment.

Ironmonger
24-09-2010, 22:18
Truthsayer/Dark Emmisary: can't use them per the PDF list.

Commissar Vaughn
24-09-2010, 22:40
Stuff Ive been finding good in 8th edition:

Grey Wizards
Duelists
The Alcatani Fellowship.
The Fighting Cocks
Asarnil
Pikemen
Small units of Heavy Lancers
Hairy drunken Barbarians

Stuff Im not finding useful:
Lucrezzia Belladonna
small units of light cavalry
paymasters bodyguard
Jade wizards
Paymasters
Pikemen

Ironmonger
24-09-2010, 22:46
Why isn't the Paymaster Bodyguard good (aside from the slight over cost)? Huge blocks of halberds seem to do pretty well in 8th.

Jericho
25-09-2010, 01:14
Truthsayer/Dark Emmisary: can't use them per the PDF list.
Any reason why not (aside from the awkward hero/rare dual slot dilemma)? They became Regiment of Renown after the campaign ended...

Granted, there's very little reason to actually take one with the new rules. Truthsayers used to be awesome jack of all trades generals, but now you can have a cheap Mercenary General and a L4 do both combat and magic well separately...

Ironmonger
25-09-2010, 04:08
Where are they in the PDF? I'm not being snarky, I just can't find them.

Jericho
25-09-2010, 09:19
They are in a separate PDF, one that's pretty hard to track down. I think I have a link somewhere ... not sure where it was originally hosted but there's a copy on Warseer somewhere.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49362&d=1229478678

Ironmonger
26-09-2010, 19:43
Hmmm... not sure, so I'm going with 'no.' That said, feel free... no, feel ENCOURAGED to use those rules. This tactica, however, is set firmly within the 2-part PDF put out by Cavatore as representing the DoW/RoR sans army book.

Kulgur
26-09-2010, 19:47
Stuff Ive been finding good in 8th edition:
Pikemen

Stuff Im not finding useful:
Pikemen

Wait...what?

Ironmonger
27-09-2010, 01:43
Wait...what?

Yeah, that confused me a bit as well. Maybe he was just saying that they were both good and bad (like... had pros/cons)? Stretching, but I'm all about giving the benefit of the doubt.

Ok, so I'm sold on pikemen (especially supported with flanking, marching pistoliers), but what about the various other missile troops that DoW can field (including RoR)? Are pavise worth it? How about the Birdmen?

Smithpod68
28-09-2010, 01:54
How do you use pikes? Do they have always strike first or only when charged? Also they strike "4 ranks deep" how does that translate into 8th?( 2 ranks normally +3?)

someone2040
28-09-2010, 03:41
They fight for a total of 5 ranks, 6 in a horde.
They don't have the always strikes first special rule, they just go first if the enemy does not have that rule. They are also about 3-4 points overcosted and the only way to make them half-competitive is through various buff spells.

@IronMonger
I suppose then, if you ignore the Truthsayer and Dark Emissary, you also ignore Menghils Manhide Manflayers who also are not in the regiments of renown pdf. I'm sorry, but it just feels a bit silly to just well... ignore rules that are just as available as others.

Commissar Vaughn
28-09-2010, 14:51
Wait...what?

Im a bit on the fence with them: I like them but in situations where they should do well they do really badly....

Then again in situations where they should get battered they tend to emerge victorious...

Hence why in both lists.


Strangely Ive found small units of 12 ROR Pikemen (I use the Fellowship and the Leopard Company, formed 4x3 ) to be more succesful than my 30 regular pikes led by a captain.

I dont know why this is.

Also with the Paymasters BodyGuard...Ive used them once, and they werent bad, but they were only up against a few skellies (well they were outnumbered two to one but only while I manouvered 4 other regiments and a dragon to their flank and rear) . I was left with the feeling that If theyd been up against someone a bit tougher like the basic infantry of almost any other army they'd have been creamed.

Smithpod68
29-09-2010, 01:48
Now is there an updated PDF for DoW in 8th ed?

Chris_
29-09-2010, 02:03
Now is there an updated PDF for DoW in 8th ed?No, and most likely there won't be one.

Zilverug
29-09-2010, 11:25
No, and most likely there won't be one.

I'll make one as soon as I have time for it... ;)

Ironmonger
29-09-2010, 17:24
I'll make one as soon as I have time for it... ;)

lol. ;)

As said, the last PDF (I'm pretty sure you can find it all over the place, as it's...well...all over the place) was compatable for 7th, and still works fine. However, I really don't see GW ever putting out another Dogs of War book (the last book book was 5th ed), so this is the closest official list we have.

mistrmoon
30-09-2010, 07:23
Also Alessio came right out as saying that games workshop really feels that DOW were a mistake, so unlike chaos dwarfs who i expect new stuff for eventually (hurrah for forgeworld) DOW will likely never get anything new although games workshop hasn't openly 'squatted' them yet.

Ironmonger
30-09-2010, 16:24
Also Alessio came right out as saying that games workshop really feels that DOW were a mistake, so unlike chaos dwarfs who i expect new stuff for eventually (hurrah for forgeworld) DOW will likely never get anything new although games workshop hasn't openly 'squatted' them yet.

This. All the more reason for people to play them :D

Jericho
30-09-2010, 20:36
On the one hand, they are probably the army with least "Fantasy" to them, with so much of the Tilean fluff being mis-spelled Italian. The mix of historical with fantasy elements was so much of what made them cool. Da Vinci's pedal powered flying machines being used as skirmishers? Just brilliant :p Sadly they work about as well in game as they would in real life...

At the end of the day I still don't see why they just flipped a switch and decided RoR/DoW were a mistake. They've been around forever, just do a search for 80's Mengil's Manflayers on eBay or Skarloc's Elves.

Isn't Alessio gone now? Maybe the new guys in charge will have a bit more nostalgia for them, as seems to be the case with many Fantasy releases lately.

Malorian
30-09-2010, 20:36
although games workshop hasn't openly 'squatted' them yet.

You mean other than removing all mention of them from every since book? :confused:

BorderKing
30-09-2010, 20:43
Apparantly, GW Italy and some DOW players from DOWonline and Tilean.net are doing something, but I don't know if this is a wayward manager's effort to increase sales, or something that might get acknowleged by GW.

someone2040
01-10-2010, 09:28
At the end of the day I still don't see why they just flipped a switch and decided RoR/DoW were a mistake. They've been around forever, just do a search for 80's Mengil's Manflayers on eBay or Skarloc's Elves.

Isn't Alessio gone now? Maybe the new guys in charge will have a bit more nostalgia for them, as seems to be the case with many Fantasy releases lately.
I don't get where people quote that Alessio said DoW were a mistake. As you said, they've been around like forever. In fact, Alessio you could say, wrote a core lot of the current Dogs of War stuff (Given that he wrote a lot of the fluff for 5th edition Dogs of War, and wrote the 6th edition list).
So don't get where people get the idea Alessio doesn't like the Dogs of War.

As for GW Italy. When they put the Chaos Dwarf and Dogs of War lists on the Italy website, I was hopeful they might do a DoW FAQ as well. But only the Chaos Dwarfs seem to have gotten one, so a little dissapointed there. Just dissapointed in general that it would probably take them a small portion of time to write a FAQ for the list, and dust off a few moulds to make DoW more available (Really, just need Mydas and Merce Generals. Everything else is gravy, while Special characters just make sense as well given they're all good looking models).

Either way, just like usual - just gotta deal with what we got.

Commissar Vaughn
01-10-2010, 10:52
Well I heard that Alessio had approved and was involved with Tilea.nets efforts.

Apparently its going to be more of a fandex than an errata which doesnt encourage me one bit: Fandexs tend to be full of units and special rules that were accompanied by the words "wouldnt it be cool if..." and not only is there nobody to say "No, no it wouldnt. Less is more." theres usually a host of collaborators who seem to think that if one "wouldnt it be cool if..." unit/rule is included then so should theirs...and after that nobody wants to be left out.

You end up with "traits" and "doctrines" and all kinds of useless rubbish when all you really need is to make pikemen slightly cheaper and a proper ASF. At least with GW's own army books this kind of thing is limited by having just one writer in charge, though even then you can end up with either one such unit/rule (like Grail pilgrims and lion chariots...seriously?) or an entire army of them (chaos deamons).... (/nerdrage)

Sorry, I'll calm down now....

decker_cky
01-10-2010, 22:51
You mean other than removing all mention of them from every since book? :confused:

The entries in the rare section were only correct for about 4 months. GW later changed DoW to have a bunch allowed to be taken in a special slot. Because of that, GW stopped printing the incorrect dogs of war entry in the rare sections.

Truthsayers and Dark Emissaries are as legal as anything in dogs of war. Giants too. The only thing officially removed is ogre kingdoms stuff.

Ironmonger
02-10-2010, 07:09
So we'll include Truthsayers and D.E. in this tactica as well, then. Does anyone use them in 8th?

Ironmonger
18-11-2010, 19:09
Just rereading the list and making some forces of various sizes, and I noticed something peculiar: no upgrades other then armour. That is to say, no musician, no champion, no standard bearer. Somehow I had missed these guys before. Please, can someone tell me I'm wrong, and that they can be found on page xx?

someone2040
19-11-2010, 03:28
Champion, Musicians and Standard Bearers can be found on page 4 of the pdf, second column, under the heading "Champsion, Musicians and Standard Bearers".
They're somewhat expensive apart from on Ogres who get them cheap.

Ironmonger
19-11-2010, 06:54
(wipes sweat from forehead)

So glad I was stoopid and wrong ;)

Morkash
20-01-2011, 15:25
Didn't want to make a new tactica, so I though I'll post it here!

I like the new edition with my (small) DoW force.

We got a few setbacks, but alot of synergies with the new rules as well. The awesome Perry Mercenary box makes it even better!
The new lores certainly help us to boost our troops, so I prefer Beasts (more to that one later), Light, Life and Shadow over the others.
Light has very good buffs (30 slayer pirates with Birona's Time Warp are evil!) and most of them can even be cast on a area, which is even better!
Shadow is without doubt one of the strongest lores at the moment, it is versatile, destructive and overall very good. Mind Razor is a powerful buff indeed, and with it even pikemen can accomplish a heroic counterattack...
Life is the standard lore of sorts, good buffs, good lore attribute, regrowth and a nobrainer-mass destruction spell are nice to have. Downside is, that you need a bit of luck to roll the good spells.

But imho the Lore of Beasts is the best lore for DoW. There are a few reasons for this:
Even the basic +1S/+1T is handy and versatile, and can help our (overpriced) troops to stay alive and kill stuff.
The spear may be not the most awesome spell in the game, but with a wizard on pegasus you can flankshot knights or monsters, when they are out of cannon sight.
But the best spell by far is the +3S/+3A area buff for heroes. If you play RoR heavy, you will have a bunch of named characters on the field and with this buff even blind Ibn is a beast!

Units:
The Mercenary General is a good and cheap option now, I field mine mounted with the Venators, usually with Dawn Stone, Ogre Blade and 5+ Ward armor...relatively cheap, well protected and not entire defenceless.
Wizard Lord is a must-have now, some like him on pegasus, some not...mine usually has a pegasus. Talisman of Preservation keeps him alive.

Paymaster is still the meh-choice, but at least he can be a bit more protected now. I field mine similarly to 7th edition, with a crossbow in the Marksmen of Miragliano. Maximilian takes challenges if someone attacks them, but just in case the PM wears the Armour of Destiny.

Captasus is still a nice choice to hunt warmachines. Cheap, mobile and 3 wounds are handy.
Asarnil is great because hes a hero choice dragon, although expensive. In bigger points he could definately be worth it.

Core: Pikes in all variations are still expensive, still fragile but nevertheless a core element of our army's representation. When buffed by magic, they can at least something. ;) From the RoRs I like Ricco the most, awesome models with WS4 and Heavy armour are ok.

Duelists were mentioned already, I share your thoughts, still like them alot. Crossbows are a basic choice, and Marksmen are good as Paymaster protection. Never used Braganza's lads, anyone got experiences with them in the 8th?
Light Cav has its uses, they can hunt warmachines and are quite cheap for that task.
Heavy Cav lacks power in the 8th edition, I always take Volands Venators with me, basic Strength 4 is good and their price is acceptable.
Lastly, Al Muktar's are expensive Light Cav, but they can be really nice when the 3 heroes are buffed with +3S/+3A!

Specials...with the loss of the OK units we lost good choices (and obvious ones in the 7th...Maneaters, anyone?) but we still have plenty more.
Basic Ogres with 2handers are fine, their command unit is cheap and they can dish out damage just as well as Iron Guts did.
Dwarves are the DoW anvil and look nice if you use old Citadel/Marauder models for them.
Norsca Marauders are quite nice now. Sure, not as awesome as dirt-cheap core choice Khorne Marauders, but very good nevertheless. They stand on 20x20 mm bases, which is awesome! Beorg on the other hand suffers from 8th. Parry and Frenzy do not combine, although Beorg with the Beast buff is evil. ;)

Halflings are better now, BS4 and the Bow special rule plus their cheap price are a fine combination! Lumpin's lads are ok, too. They are also cheap, and fat, skirmishing halflings just have to be loved. :)

Paymaster's guard are mediocre, expensive Halberdiers, but their magic banner can help. Plus there exist quite a few beautiful conversions for them.
Slayer pirates are AWESOME! They are slayers, pirates, drunken and have loads of pistols. What's not to like? Game-wise they are really powerful with Birona's Time Warp and can dish out a load of S4 attacks. Being Unbreakable does not hurt either.

Oglah Khan's are too expensive for their abilities imo, as is Ruglud (though I field Ruglud quite often, being a primary greenskin player...) and the Cursed Company. The latter can be effective, but they are very expensive. Can be used in fancy combinations...

Lastly, Mengil lost a bit of his flavour. Expensive as ever, it is still very hard to shot them, but with the loss of ASF when charging plus opponents actually striking back they should really be used as scouting, skirmishing shooters with BS5 and poison. At this task, they are awesome of course, similar to gutter runners with poisoned weapons, 10 times more effective, but 5 times as expensive. :p

Rare: Cannons are good and cheap, and the Hot Pot is quite nasty now, especially for 50 points! I usually field two of each.
Goblin Hewer is fantastic vs Slave and Gobbo roadblocks, but every horde hit in the flank by it will suffer for sure.
Giants are funny and unreliable as ever, but if you want to field one or two, why not? Giants of Albions can cause trouble if they reach combat, and Hengus can buff the units while the two rampage through the enemy's lines.
Bronzino's cannons are awesome models, but quite expensive on the field. I like them nevertheless, and a good flank shot can cause damage, especially if 2 cannons combine their fire!
The other units, I have no experience with...so maybe you care to share your thoughts?

Edit: Woa...this text wall is immense, good job if you managed to chew through it!

Slayerthane
24-01-2011, 18:43
I have a Kislev themed DoW army with Kislevite allies. Kossars are pretty good in 8th, with volley fire, great weapon supporting attacks and a stubborn boyar thrown in. Actually a half decent tarpit. Now with the expanded common items, I have some stuff to keep the boyars alive longer.

Pikes still have their use. Remember, pikes allow you to attack in 4 ranks so with the new supporting attacks rule, they can actually attack with 5 ranks total. Sure they're not cheap but run them 5x6 and they'll be a half decent unit in combat as long as they keep their steadfast. Also, Pikes give the always strikes first, so this helps with initiative, and if they have a higher initiative than the opposing unit they can re-rolls hits and wounds.

I actually have a Truthsayer as my general, which isn't too shabby. He has leadership 9, 4+ ward save, lvl 3 wizard and str5 in combat.