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Entreri Bloodletter
25-09-2010, 09:12
So this is partly a thought for an army list but also a tactic that I was hoping to get opinions on. The idea of the list is to have a massive point sink of a unit that can come to grips with the enemy ASAP and hopefully surprise and disorientate as well. So here's the list and I'll explain as I go.

Savage Orc Warboss, Shagga's Sword, 2+ Armor save magic armor (forgot name), Luckstone - 230
Lots of attacks from proximity of characters (probably around 8 S8 attacks) and a decent save as well.

Level 4 Orc Great Shaman, Powerscroll, 4+ ward 295
Level 2 Orc Shaman, Dispel Scroll

These will guarantee me getting Waaaagh!, a crucial part of the plan

Black Orc BSB Rampage Banner (re-roll charge distance), HA, shield 146

Getting the charge off on turn one is crucial so this is there to help with that chance.

The other major part of the plan involves a huge unit of black orcs(around 40 or so) with the Waaagh Banner. So the plan is to declare my Waaaagh first, then declare a charge on preferably an ITP unit but anything else your opponent is unlikely to flee with works as well. With an average charge of 4 + 3.5 (waaagh banner) + 2d6 (can be re-rolled) + 3.5 (Waaaagh special rule) = 18 inches, possibly more with the reroll. That means that your opponent only has to move forward 6 inches for you to be in range. It also means that your horde of S6 black orcs will be roaming around in the backfield of his army with rerollable attacks from the Waaaagh Spell.


While it may seem like a lot of luck involved I think that the redundancy from the powerscroll and the multiple charge range increases makes it interesting.

What about the weaknesses of black orcs you say? Well the safest place for this monster is in combat and this build maximises that chance, and before your opponent can dictate movement too much. The scroll can stop that one super spell and then you're in combat. Shooting won't hamper it much once you are on their side.

The rest of the army can be built to taste but here is the core of it. Preferably units that can support from afar or that can keep up are good so it doesnt get surrounded and crushed. Any thoughts? Suggestions? Rants? I want to hear what you think!

Djekar
25-09-2010, 10:39
I've run a similiar wizard set up, and ideally you want the power scroll on the level 2. It doesn't matter about the +2 to cast because you are hoping to IF it anyways, and there are quite a few chances on our miscast table to explode - meaning you'd rather blow up the level 2 than the level 4. All I did was switch the scrolls (putting the Dispel Scroll on the Level 4 and the Power Scroll on the level 2) when I ran it.

As far as the BSB, I think that he is A) overkill in this unit - they still charge far (and you have Waaagh! if you fail the first charge), although I understand why he is there and B) if he is back behind the lines, he can't extend his amazingly awesome ability to reroll LD tests to the majority of your battle line. I'd change his equipment and let him hang out with the general back with the majority of your troops.

Black orcs are scary, and if you can get some sweet positioning with this tactic I think that you can surprise and possibly wreck an unsuspecting opponent. I'd say give it a try, but you'll want to leave the BSB out of the equation at the very least.

Frankly
25-09-2010, 10:56
I like seeing ideas like this on the tactic's page, I wish there were more actual tactic's in the page.

8th Ed is really quick for close combat lists, so far the only list that trumps them is a slann magic list well supposed by CC units.

The idea of making a CC list even quicker is great, imho the real skill of playing CC lists is gettiing your models across the table and into the combats that YOU want them in. And thats the only problem I see with your idea. getting into a combat you want. Having one major CC unit makes that unit the number one target threat. So for me atleast, I'd be placing most my controlling suppport units in its way or out to contain it.

I think you need to put this tactic into the context of an armylist

That armylist needs to have units to support your delivery system.

Entreri Bloodletter
26-09-2010, 05:00
Alright well how's this for an army list? I realize it isn't very big but it focuses on extreme speed and getting in your face from turn 1. Both large units have a very good chance of charging turn 1 before your opponent can react. The night goblins are there for fanatic delivery and that pretty much it.

Savage Orc Warboss, Shagga's Sword, 2+ armor save, Luckstone
Level 4 Savage Orc Shaman, Martag's Best Basha, Powerscroll, 4+ ward
Level 2 Orc Shaman, Dispel Scroll
BO BSB Rampage Standard, heavy armor, boar (doesn't need to worry about templates if he's going to be in combat turn 1- but also optional)
BO Big Boss, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dragonhelm, heavy armor

40 Big Uns, two choppas, full command, Standard of Swiftness (2 extra inches could be the difference between making and missing a long charge)
21 NG with short bows, musician, 2 fanatics
21 NG with short bows, musician, 2 fanatics

40 Black Orcs, Full command, Waaaagh Banner

And that's the army. Very few units but both of them can charge turn one with the Waaagh Ability combined with the spell. Both large units will be deployed in horde and can dish out an obscene amount of hits that can potentially be re-rollable.

So the BO unit on average will get 4+3.5(Waaagh) + 3.5 (Waaagh Banner) + 7 (charge-can be rerolled) = 18 average inches. Possibly more

The Big Uns will Waaaagh on a 2+, getting 3.5 inches, will march 1st turn getting 10 more inches. Then the Waaagh spell will give another 7 (on average). Thus 1st turn they can go 20.5 inches, very easily charging. Both units can beat almost anything they run in to with 40 S5 attacks that could be rerolled. They should be in combat pretty much every turn, so that eliminates shooting and (most) spell damage.

Any thoughts? Improvements to the army list?

Kevlar
26-09-2010, 06:16
But that unsupported infantry block might just be on the receiving end of some nasty counter charges as your opponent starts his turn 2.

Plus you aren't getting 40 attacks on a 20mm 5 file wide unit. More like 20. Still will do some damage, but say skaven slaves in the standard 5 wide 10 deep formation. You might kill 15 of them but that will still leave them 7 ranks deep and steadfast. Then you get flanked by the rat ogres and hell pit abomination.

Black orcs aren't exactly blood angels death company. Not sure the 1st turn waaagh (rhino rush) is going to be the best tactic.

theorox
26-09-2010, 08:16
I answered this on Da Warpath, ;)

Theo

Entreri Bloodletter
26-09-2010, 16:19
But that unsupported infantry block might just be on the receiving end of some nasty counter charges as your opponent starts his turn 2.

Plus you aren't getting 40 attacks on a 20mm 5 file wide unit. More like 20. Still will do some damage, but say skaven slaves in the standard 5 wide 10 deep formation. You might kill 15 of them but that will still leave them 7 ranks deep and steadfast. Then you get flanked by the rat ogres and hell pit abomination.

Black orcs aren't exactly blood angels death company. Not sure the 1st turn waaagh (rhino rush) is going to be the best tactic.

Well, this unit is meant to be a line breaker so lets see if some mathhammer helps us out here.

40 Black Orcs vs 50 Slaves

6 guys in contact, 2 of which are characters, everyone hits on three's and kills on 2's with re-rolls to hit (Irresistible Waaaagh Spell first turn). 34 attacks, so that's about 30 hits total which means 25 dead on average rolls. All I need to break the unit is 26 kills which is easily do-able. Also, if my lord is within 12 inches of characters he will get additional attacks pushing the kills over the requirement.

So after breaking the unit (provided no snake eyes) I can pursue and either
1). Catch him and reform how I wish behind his lines
2). Pursue him and probably be out of charge arcs but too close for a lot of his army to counterattack.

Even if he does hold and I get flanked by rat ogres or an or an abomination I'll kill enough slaves next round to see them both fleeing.

thechosenone
26-09-2010, 17:06
If your talking about slaves it doesn't work that well actually. Slaves blow up when they lose just dealing a bunch of attacks to everything. So i'm not sure about pursuit there. And besides, is nuking a unit for a first turn charge really worth the charges you'll take afterward. You WILL take the Hellpit charge. You can't avoid it's movement. It get's a free pivot before random movement.

The other issue is that skaven magic is all short on range but awfully sick. You've now given him first turn dred 13th nuke right back at you. Its not a magick missile so i think he can mess you up even in combat. Point is, if he example is skaven, congrads you killed a huge unit filled with 2pt models. Now you are going to be picked apart by a hellpit and turned into rats.

Deathstars aren't hard to kill when it will take them one to two turns to see any support from the rest of their army.

NecronBob
26-09-2010, 17:25
I like the list. Like you say, you want to get horde units into combat quickly, and this does that.

You might run into trouble against stubborn and unbreakable units. The trouble with getting all the way across the board is that the other army will still have its battle lines perfectly intact. If you hit a stubborn unit, they'll most likely stand, and then you have the rest of the opponents army running into your two big blocks' flanks.

I'd expect a lot of second turn wins and a lot of second turn loses. As an aside, my friend has a similar list that he's used against me twice. The first time, his deathstar came up sort on the charge and got hammered. The second time, he did make it across the board, but ran into a unit of phoenix guard with mindrazor on (that was his fault though; he should have known better).

Kevlar
26-09-2010, 18:11
Well, this unit is meant to be a line breaker so lets see if some mathhammer helps us out here.

40 Black Orcs vs 50 Slaves

6 guys in contact, 2 of which are characters, everyone hits on three's and kills on 2's with re-rolls to hit (Irresistible Waaaagh Spell first turn). 34 attacks, so that's about 30 hits total which means 25 dead on average rolls. All I need to break the unit is 26 kills which is easily do-able. Also, if my lord is within 12 inches of characters he will get additional attacks pushing the kills over the requirement.

So after breaking the unit (provided no snake eyes) I can pursue and either
1). Catch him and reform how I wish behind his lines
2). Pursue him and probably be out of charge arcs but too close for a lot of his army to counterattack.

Even if he does hold and I get flanked by rat ogres or an or an abomination I'll kill enough slaves next round to see them both fleeing.

How do you get six 25mm bases to line up to five 20mm bases?

Slaves (at least mine) all get a 6+/6+ save. So even with s5 they get the ward save. Against regular orcs, after the choppa bonus is gone they get double the save.

Your unit even if you make it a character death star is not going to kill more than 25 slaves and break their steadfast. You just don't get enough attacks.

They will hold at least for a turn and you will be flanked by multiple hard hitting units.

Tae
26-09-2010, 18:15
How do you get six 25mm bases to line up to five 20mm bases?

Because 5 x 20mm bases is a 100mm frontage.

4 x 25mm bases is a 100mm frontage.

Now add on the one extra corner to corner at each end, and that gives you 6 x 25 vs 5 x 20.

Kevlar
26-09-2010, 18:27
Because 5 x 20mm bases is a 100mm frontage.

4 x 25mm bases is a 100mm frontage.

Now add on the one extra corner to corner at each end, and that gives you 6 x 25 vs 5 x 20.

Oh yeah I'm just so used to seeing 25x5 wider than my 20x5 on both sides. Never fought one in as a horde.

goodz
27-09-2010, 18:18
fun i agree that you'll want to deploy against something you can break, the rest of your blocks should have moved up decently as well, could consider giving a crown of command to your fast unit so if you do get flank charged your other units can hopefully flank charge in return? (Doesn't seem very orc like)

Ideally you would break whatever you charge and end up behind your opponents line, so don't charge a unit of 100 slaves:P

Entreri Bloodletter
29-09-2010, 02:07
So I just had a thought about a potential problem, how should I deal with very fast diverters (ie eagles) that land right in front of my hordes? I want to be charging turn 1 and I don't see a way of getting around those eagles if they decide to hold. I can charge it and if it flees I'm ok but if it holds it will slow me down quite a bit.

I've thought about fanatics but then I run the risk of charging through them on the way to the main enemy.

Any other ideas?

thechosenone
29-09-2010, 02:41
Just use the fanatics and take the hits. The unit you described is hard enough to survive the loss of some models. I'm still advising this strategy but if your willing to feed a unit to the entire enemy army than don't freak out about a few losses on the way.

Karhedron
04-10-2010, 15:43
Just use the fanatics and take the hits.

I agree, most units in the O&G army should be large enough to handle the occasional "own goal" from the spinning loonies. Fanatics excel at wiping out small elite units like cavalry, with the trend towards infantry hordes in 8E, I am wondering if Fanatics will cease to be such a staple of O&G armies.

Tae
04-10-2010, 15:50
I agree, most units in the O&G army should be large enough to handle the occasional "own goal" from the spinning loonies. Fanatics excel at wiping out small elite units like cavalry, with the trend towards infantry hordes in 8E, I am wondering if Fanatics will cease to be such a staple of O&G armies.

Possibly, but with the larger number of units they may now become awesome when used by units on a flank - imagine bouncing down an entire battle line :D

meneroth
04-10-2010, 17:37
I wouldnt charge 1st turn with it, give it an extra turn for your opponents battleline to become a bit more shifted and then pull the big move. with a 1st turn charge your options on what to charge are gonna be limited to one or two units, but if you wait longer till your opponent has some units further out and some units a bit closer to his own battle line, then try and shoot past the near units into his backfield and then youve got a pretty scary move, cause they (your black orcs) hopefully can run past most units charge arcs and take out a unit in the back, causing the opponents army to disrupt thier own battleline in order to deal with that kind of huge threat.

scarvet
04-10-2010, 17:49
Fanatics allow NG to deal with Eilte infantries; Chaos Warriors for example, would only slowly but surely maul down those Gobilns; however with Fanatics they would be easily overcome.

I say Fanatic is still the "signature" upgrade for NG, rather 20 strong fodder or 40+ strong horde.