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Askil the Undecided
25-09-2010, 12:44
Since that bloody book came out these forums have been lousy with posters using the wrong term to refer to the tech priests of Mars.

I have corrected quite a few of these posters in those threads but just thought I'd really push the point home here too.

If you aren't talking about the pre-heresy period then for god's sake it's called the ADEPTUS MECHANICUS or informally the Mechanicus or by gamers the AdMech.

The MECHANICUM was destroyed during/after the Horus Heresy and the loyalist surviviors formed the ADEPTUS MECHANICUS following Gulliman's creation of the Adeptus, thus the Adeptus Mechanicus formally becoming part of the Imperium rather than an allied partner as it was before.

Can we please stop saying MECHANICUM now when it doesn't apply, please?

Verm1s
25-09-2010, 12:48
I feel your pain, but I doubt many others will...

Kage2020
25-09-2010, 13:09
Someone needs to take their dried frog pills, methinks. :shifty:

:D

One thing to remember is that many people just might not know that there is a difference other than just one letter, thus that they can be used interchangeably.

Kage

FarseerMatt
25-09-2010, 14:12
Although it gets a little murky with the NON-loyalist tech-priests - would they have continued to refer to themselves as the "Mechanicum", or adopted the name that the loyalists branded them with, "Dark Mechanicus"...?

Kage2020
25-09-2010, 14:41
Given that the Mechanicum did not singularly constitute the rebel factions of the pre-Heresy organisation, are you sure that it is that murky at all?

No, wait, you're right. ;) What a great way for the "Dark Mechanicus" to evoke a purer period unfettered by the blind orthodoxy (or fear of things like tentacles and daemons! ;)), while the orthodox can misrepresent radical philosophies as rebel. :D (Which isn't made too difficult when the ejit of a radical Magos Biologis decides that organic mechandendrites are a healthy and progressive way forwards..."What!? Chaos mutation tentacles? Where?")

Kage

nagash66
25-09-2010, 17:03
Some people arent that in to the backround, for them it doesnt really matter and it should be THAT big of a problem.

Artein
25-09-2010, 20:09
Mechanicum = Adeptus Mechanicus, just like
Sisterhood = Adepta Sororitas

FlashGordon
25-09-2010, 23:35
But pre-heresy the good guys where called Mechanicum then came the Dark(i was actually hoping mcneill would have retconned this name...) MechanicuS. After the heresy the mechanicuM decided that MechanicuS sounded better(and it would be much easier to get the evil and the good ones mixed up except for the dark robes of the dark mechanicus, and tentacles and stuff).

Anyway...
> Mechanicum
>Dark MechanicuS (lame)
>Adeptus MechanicuS! WTF?!

KingDeath
25-09-2010, 23:56
Where is it actually stated that the Mechanicum changed it's name?
Of course, we know that the modern institution is most often called the Adeptus Mechanicus, but this doesn't has to mean that the older term is no
longer valid.

TheLaughingGod
26-09-2010, 00:06
Some people arent that in to the backround, for them it doesnt really matter and it should be THAT big of a problem.

That's not really a valid excuse for anything.

Aedes
26-09-2010, 00:32
:eek:
Oh my god, what have I started?:eek:
I didnt know my lack of knowledge would cause so much pain....:p

mrln68
26-09-2010, 01:34
Me thinks it is time to start a campaign to fore go the use of Mechanicus and only use Mechanicum. See how long it takes for the OP to blow.

adreal
26-09-2010, 02:07
Since that bloody book came out these forums have been lousy with posters using the wrong term to refer to the tech priests of Mars.

I have corrected quite a few of these posters in those threads but just thought I'd really push the point home here too.

If you aren't talking about the pre-heresy period then for god's sake it's called the ADEPTUS MECHANICUS or informally the Mechanicus or by gamers the AdMech.

The MECHANICUM was destroyed during/after the Horus Heresy and the loyalist surviviors formed the ADEPTUS MECHANICUS following Gulliman's creation of the Adeptus, thus the Adeptus Mechanicus formally becoming part of the Imperium rather than an allied partner as it was before.

Can we please stop saying MECHANICUM now when it doesn't apply, please?


cool story bro

mob16151
26-09-2010, 02:35
Theres two types of tech priests
Mech-can-i-can

and

Mech-can-i-can't

All cleared up now.

Kage2020
26-09-2010, 04:15
Ah, nerd-rage.

Kage

FlashGordon
26-09-2010, 09:05
Anyway. Dark mechanicus is lame.

Iuris
26-09-2010, 09:06
And when one who knows latin looks on...

MagosHereticus
26-09-2010, 09:31
if this is the most trying thing you have to deal with in life, then smile

NightrawenII
26-09-2010, 17:33
I feel your pain mate, every time someone use God-hammer pattern Land Raider.:(

Aedes
27-09-2010, 02:36
Just for additional information--
in the short story "the core" from "Fear the Alien", "mechanicum" is used equal to "Mechanicus"-- so who is right? :rolleyes:

ForgottenLore
27-09-2010, 03:05
Just for additional information--
in the short story "the core" from "Fear the Alien", "mechanicum" is used equal to "Mechanicus"-- so who is right? :rolleyes:

I believe that is what the OP is referring to when he says "since that bloody book came out"

AndrewGPaul
27-09-2010, 09:26
I thought he was referring to Mechanicum.

Sine apparently Askil knows all, he can explain exactly where the details of thw change in name are explained? I don't recall the Mechanicum being "destroyed" in any of the novels so far.

Kage2020
27-09-2010, 12:23
Well, except at the end of Mechanicum. There's the story and the throw-away line at the end...

Kage

AndrewGPaul
27-09-2010, 15:57
The novel as a whole? the Mechanicum schisms, but I don't recall it saying the organisation was destroyed and reborn. The last line?
Ten thousand years would pass before the next Guardian was drawn to the Noctis Labyrinthus, but by then the damage had been done. I must be missing something.

Obviously something happened - the aorganistion went from being the Mechanicum to the Adeptus Mechanicus, but that to me just seems like the same trend of "religification" that swept the Imperium as a whole after the Heresy

Kage2020
27-09-2010, 16:05
Yeah, the point where I misremembered what the last line was. Maybe it was the last page? The bit where the author basically went, "And, with that, all the researchers and the progressives were gone or rebels." It's the same kind of approach that you see in the recent FFG materials with regards to Dark Heresy.

And I didn't said destroyed, merely used your use of the term in quotation marks (i.e. you might not have literally meant destroyed). Thus, you get rid of those pesky researchers, establish the orthodoxy, and then rename yourself. After all, changing a name is used in the real world to "destroy" something in history/perception. :D

Kage

Lord Zarkov
27-09-2010, 17:23
Just for additional information--
in the short story "the core" from "Fear the Alien", "mechanicum" is used equal to "Mechanicus"-- so who is right? :rolleyes:

Given that in that story it is used by Chaos Marines (and their assosiates) who are still folowing the ancient pre-heresy ties and agreements between the Night Lords and the Mechanicum there wouldn't have been any reason for them to suddenly start using another name.

Loyalists however would only refer to the (Adeptus) Mechanicus.

AndrewGPaul
27-09-2010, 18:40
Yeah, the point where I misremembered what the last line was. Maybe it was the last page? The bit where the author basically went, "And, with that, all the researchers and the progressives were gone or rebels." It's the same kind of approach that you see in the recent FFG materials with regards to Dark Heresy.

And I didn't said destroyed, merely used your use of the term in quotation marks (i.e. you might not have literally meant destroyed). Thus, you get rid of those pesky researchers, establish the orthodoxy, and then rename yourself. After all, changing a name is used in the real world to "destroy" something in history/perception. :D

Kage

I think I know the bit you mean; where Magma City sinks into the, well, magma.

I was referring to Askil's original post when I said "destroyed". To me, that implies a discontinuity of organisation; the traditions, rituals and so on of the original entity done away with and the new arising from scratch. I don't see that happening. The Adeptus Mechanicus is the Mechanicum (at least, the loyal elements), not just a new entity formed from the assets of the old.

Without researching any further, I could see both terms being used by the Mechanicus/m itself, depending on whether the speaker is on the side of greater autonomy from the Imperium or otherwise. In a similar way to how one might see oneself as primarily a Texan* or an American citizen.

*or wherever you're from. I use Texas as it has a reputation for being independently-minded.

Morollan
27-09-2010, 23:27
Just for additional information--
in the short story "the core" from "Fear the Alien", "mechanicum" is used equal to "Mechanicus"-- so who is right? :rolleyes:

And, more importantly, who gives a &*@#?

Kage2020
28-09-2010, 00:04
And, more importantly, who gives a &*@#?
Err, because the average 40k 'fluff' fan doesn't know that they're actually misspelling "pedant?"

:shifty:

Kage

FlashGordon
28-09-2010, 10:47
I always thought, when reading the book mechanicum, that the law that forbade new technology to be researched would be discussed more indepth. But the book just continued with this as a sidenote never being mentioned again. Obviously it is more or less in effect "now" in the 41st.

TheSaylesMan
29-09-2010, 17:36
Adeptus Mechanicus is a very Imperial designation don't you think? I mean, the Tech-Priests do like to think of their organization as allied and not truly part of the Imperium. Seems simple to me that they were originally called the Mechanicum, were given the designation Adeptus Mechanicus by the Imperials at some point and both titles are applicable. Mechanicus and Imperial societies do assimilate with each other a bit.

Hell, the Space Marines are also called the Adeptus Astartes and yet both terms are perfectly valid. I'm not seeing the fuss here.

CrimsonTider
29-09-2010, 21:19
I agree, the terms Mechanicum and Mechanicus seem to be interchangeable in most novels put out by the Black Library. I have read most (not all) of the BL books, and I do not remember seeing anywhere that says the name change was a bif deal. Most people I know, even the guys who love the fluff, seem to use both terms equally.

AndrewGPaul
29-09-2010, 21:49
I always thought, when reading the book mechanicum, that the law that forbade new technology to be researched would be discussed more indepth. But the book just continued with this as a sidenote never being mentioned again. Obviously it is more or less in effect "now" in the 41st.

It's not a law, more a philosophy held by the majority of the Mechanicus/m; it's better to research and discover old technology than to discover something new. As with every other Imperial institution, individuals may have different opinions. :)

Askil the Undecided
29-09-2010, 21:52
The Mechanicus and Mechanicum are different entities, one was a faction of martian techpriests that was defeated during the heresy and hasn't existed for ten thousand years, the other is the current name of the priesthood of Mars in it's entirety and has only existed as a (theorhetically) united entity for ten thousand years.

KingDeath
29-09-2010, 22:54
The Mechanicus and Mechanicum are different entities, one was a faction of martian techpriests that was defeated during the heresy and hasn't existed for ten thousand years, the other is the current name of the priesthood of Mars in it's entirety and has only existed as a (theorhetically) united entity for ten thousand years.

Do you have any sources for that?
Cause how i understand it Mechanicum merely split, it didn't cease to exist.

Kage2020
29-09-2010, 23:14
Remember, renaming something is a good way of "breaking away" from the past. :D

Kage

Phunting
29-09-2010, 23:49
So it should be Adeptus Mechanicum, right?

Askil the Undecided
30-09-2010, 02:54
All quotes are from Lexicanium's Adeptus Mechanicus page. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus)


After the Emperor formed the Imperium, he engendered support with the Martian Mechanicum, an already existing empire.

Note the Mechanicum is the name for the tech cult's martian empire that allies with the Emperor.


During the Horus Heresy, the Mechanicum split, with some Forgeworlds betraying the Emperor, some retaining their loyalty to the Imperium and some seceding altogether to remain neutral during the conflict.

There was a schim amoungst the Tech priests of the Mechanicum.


the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium

Thus must logically have been part of Guilliman's creation of the adeptus during the period known as the forging in which he pulled the structural organs that support the Imperium together and formalised their roles.

Thus:

Mechanicum = The ancient pre-adeptus empire of the cult mechanicus, hasn't existed for roughly 10,000 years since the formation of the Adeptus Terra.

Mechanicus = The current, roughly ten thousand year old Adeptus Terra organisation of the cult mechanicus.

Aiwass
30-09-2010, 11:21
Quote from the same article (highlights mine):


Main article: Lingua-technis

Lingua-technis or Techna-Lingua is the official language of the Adeptus Mechanicus. It is a binary language, optimised for quick communication of technical data, which consists of a burst of static emitted through the bionic implants of members of the Mechanicum which cannot be understood by unaugmented humans

So it seems to be the same.

FlashGordon
30-09-2010, 11:25
It's not a law, more a philosophy held by the majority of the Mechanicus/m; it's better to research and discover old technology than to discover something new. As with every other Imperial institution, individuals may have different opinions. :)

No, Kelbor Hal issued a ban on researchig technology right before the scism(causing the arrest of one of the main characters, but lo behold She/he was actually being rescued by a faction from Magma City).

CrimsonTider
30-09-2010, 13:48
Well, if it came from Lexicanium's Adeptus Mechanicus page, is it canon? I have always heard that Lexicanium was a fan site, thus not always canon. As Aiwass points out, even within that same article, both names are used to refer to the same group. Actually, if you search Lexicanium for Mechanicum, it redirects you to Adeptus Mechanicus. Nowhere in that article does it specifically state anything about renaming the mechanicum. Indeed, later in the article, it refers to the quest for knowledge by saying this: "During the Horus Heresy, this quest led fully half of the Mechanicum, including the Fabricator General himself, to secede from the rule of Terra. See Dark Mechanicum for details. " When looking for the novel Mechanicum, the quote is "Mechanicum is written by Graham McNeill. It is the ninth novel in the Horus Heresy Series and was published in December 2008. Mechanicum concentrates on the civil war within Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars during the Horus Heresy, leading up to the beginnings of the Dark Mechanicum. "


So it seems there is an organization that refers to itself by two closely related names, which seem to be interchangeable, and the Dark Mechanicum were the ones who split off.

Askil the Undecided
30-09-2010, 15:25
Possibly, but it must be recalled that one of those two closely related names was only coined very recently when a novel concerning the split during the horus heresy of the Martian empire that preceded the Adeptus Mechanicus was written.

Artein
30-09-2010, 17:39
It's just high gothic and low gothic for the same. Adeptus Mechanicus is an official name in high gothic. Mechanicum means the same but in the low gothic.
Just like with others quasi-latin names Adepta Sororitas, Ordo Xenos/Malleus/Hereticus, Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Navis Nobilite, etc. High gothic, just like Adeptus Mechanicus.

Grimbad
30-09-2010, 20:14
It's just high gothic and low gothic for the same. Adeptus Mechanicus is an official name in high gothic. Mechanicum means the same but in the low gothic.
Just like with others quasi-latin names Adepta Sororitas, Ordo Xenos/Malleus/Hereticus, Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Navis Nobilite, etc. High gothic, just like Adeptus Mechanicus.

Tech-priests is the low gothic name, just like battle sisters, space marines, navigators, astropaths, witch hunters and so on. Low gothic is represented in English.

I think Askil has it right. Mechanicum is the empire's name, like Imperium. When the independent ones fled, the remainder was more strongly attached to the Imperium and became an Adeptus. Any inconsistencies in the article are down to it being written by fans susceptible to this naming confusion.

Aiwass
01-10-2010, 10:46
I think not. If you are quoting an article like canon, quote it all, not just the parts you like. Mechanicum really does not sound like low gothic in any ways IMO. Tech-priests? yes, low gothic=english for GW pourposes, lame-latin=high gothic.