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magicmonkey
26-09-2010, 21:13
okay now a friend of mine recomended me to use shadows for my lizardmen but i have a few questions and was hoping for some answers
1 if i have two temple guard units can i swap my slaan with each other even though they cant leave temple guard can they swap temple guard instead?

2 can you use steed of shadows to A charge and B use it on a monstorous hero I.E. stegadon mounted chiefs and carnosaur lords

and 3 is okkhams mind razor affected by generals leadership or can i have str10 skinks :D.

thanks in advanced :)

SiNNiX
26-09-2010, 21:33
1. Yes.

2. A. No. B. Yes.

3. Yes. Models in range of a general's inspiring presence use his Leadership value and not their own, for everything (not just tests). Atleast that's how I translate it. Haven't checked the FAQ.

WusteGeist
27-09-2010, 06:14
3 is incorrect SiNNiX. The spell says "their" leadership value. While "their" leadership is more than likely better than St3, it is certainly not LD10. Long and short is use YOUR leadership, not the one conveyed by the general.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 07:18
3 is incorrect SiNNiX. The spell says "their" leadership value. While "their" leadership is more than likely better than St3, it is certainly not LD10. Long and short is use YOUR leadership, not the one conveyed by the general.

While it's easy to say "skinks with S10 doesn't sound fair," I still can't find anywhere in the rulebook or FAQ that would keep this from happening. If it exists somewhere, please let me know because I'd honestly like to know the correct answer and a reference if mine isn't it.


Inspiring Presence

...all friendly units within 12" use his Leadership instead of their own..."

The rules are clear that the unit's Leadership is modified to match the general's Leadership for all rules purposes. If it were to specify that this only applies to Leadership Tests, then it'd be different. Going by the rules strictly, it modifies the Skinks' Leadership to 10 (or whatever the Leadership of their general is).

Like I said, if I'm wrong about this, please give me a page and source reference so I can know it for future games.

WusteGeist
27-09-2010, 07:42
For me its the simple wording of the spell. Their means there own leadership value. That is just how I see it. I truly can not imagine it being played any other way. If not for the simple fact that, that spell would need a 30 to cast instead of 18. I mean just think how mind numbing powerful that spell would be if it really worked as you suggest.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 07:47
For me its the simple wording of the spell. Their means there own leadership value. That is just how I see it. I truly can not imagine it being played any other way. If not for the simple fact that, that spell would need a 30 to cast instead of 18. I mean just think how mind numbing powerful that spell would be if it really worked as you suggest.

It's already ridiculously powerful for its casting cost. Think of all the units in the game whose standard Leadership is 8 or higher. All the elven armies, chaos, dwarfs, saurus - the list goes on. It's a very good spell. However, "their own leadership value" becomes the Leadership value of their general if within range for Inspiring Presence. Those are the rules, plain and simple. This is indeed one of those :wtf: situations, but it is what it is.

Chris_
27-09-2010, 08:46
I'd have to agree with sinnix on this one... Damn... :p

theorox
27-09-2010, 08:46
The rules are clear that the unit's Leadership is modified to match the general's Leadership for all rules purposes.

No, your quote actually states "instead of their own". Their own being their own, not the generals. The mindrazor says to use "their" LD and roll to wound using that as their str. It seems clear to me, but oh well, all to their own. ;)

Theo

theorox
27-09-2010, 08:48
For me its the simple wording of the spell. Their means there own leadership value. That is just how I see it. I truly can not imagine it being played any other way. If not for the simple fact that, that spell would need a 30 to cast instead of 18. I mean just think how mind numbing powerful that spell would be if it really worked as you suggest.

Took the words out of my mouth! :D I'm 100% with you until someone else convinces me different!

Theo

Lord of Divine Slaughter
27-09-2010, 08:56
No, your quote actually states "instead of their own". Their own being their own, not the generals. The mindrazor says to use "their" LD and roll to wound using that as their str. It seems clear to me, but oh well, all to their own. ;)

Theo

Yeah, but while only reading and focusing on that little tidbit, you're forgetting to read the rules for 'Inspiring Presence'.

And actually it does make sense in a 'game balance' sort of way. Its a Lvl 6 spell, it should be as powerful as PS or Dwellers. Also, if Inspiring Presence didn't work, it would have little to no effect on the undead, and that would be kind of sad too :)

Its a powerful spell, but its not guaranteed to go off, and there are lots of other things out there to rival its power.

Chris_
27-09-2010, 09:02
No, your quote actually states "instead of their own". Their own being their own, not the generals. The mindrazor says to use "their" LD and roll to wound using that as their str. It seems clear to me, but oh well, all to their own. ;)

TheoYes, spell says to use "their own Ld" but then the Inspiring Presence changes "their own" to that of the general's because they use it "instead of their own".

theorox
27-09-2010, 09:05
"Instead of their own" Means you still have "your own" LD left but you use the generals. Therefore, when you use "their own" LD, you use their own LD. Not anything else. It seems pretty obvious! :D

"Inspiring Presence" Does NOOOT make the generals LD "their own" LD. The models LD is still the models LD.

Theo

Chris_
27-09-2010, 09:12
F = x, x = y, then F = x = y i.e. F = y. Quite simple actually.

One doesn't rule out the other, they are not conflicting statements (not mutually exclusive). The spell tells you to use "their own Ld", then the Inspiring Presence tells you to use the general's "instead of their own". Simple, easy to follow, works with maths and logic too ;)

eyescrossed
27-09-2010, 11:38
F = x, x = y, then F = x = y i.e. F = y. Quite simple actually.

One doesn't rule out the other, they are not conflicting statements (not mutually exclusive). The spell tells you to use "their own Ld", then the Inspiring Presence tells you to use the general's "instead of their own". Simple, easy to follow, works with maths and logic too ;)

This.

Extra.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 13:41
If a unit is affected by Inspiring Presence, the general's Leadership "consumes" theirs. They lose their original Leadership value in essence. As soon as the general is out of range, they revert back to their original Leadership.

Tykinkuula
27-09-2010, 13:52
"their own leadership value" becomes the Leadership value of their general if within range for Inspiring Presence

False. If IP is applicable, they use generals leadership. Their own LD remains unchanged, they simply do not use it.


If a unit is affected by Inspiring Presence, the general's Leadership "consumes" theirs. They lose their original Leadership value in essence. As soon as the general is out of range, they revert back to their original Leadership.

Still false. Page 107 of RBRB;
...use his leadership instead of their own...

This does not tell, cause, or even imply in any way or form that their own leadership changes in any way.

Chris_
27-09-2010, 14:26
False. If IP is applicable, they use generals leadership. Their own LD remains unchanged, they simply do not use it.



Still false. Page 107 of RBRB;
...use his leadership instead of their own...

This does not tell, cause, or even imply in any way or form that their own leadership changes in any way.The keywords here are "their own", the spell tells them to use "their own" leadership, the IP tells them to use the general's instead of "their own". So in all instances where they would use "their own" they now instead use the general's. Please see my earlier post too. There is nothing in these two statements ruling out the other.

Mid'ean
27-09-2010, 15:01
False. If IP is applicable, they use generals leadership. Their own LD remains unchanged, they simply do not use it.



Still false. Page 107 of RBRB;
...use his leadership instead of their own...

This does not tell, cause, or even imply in any way or form that their own leadership changes in any way.

IP tells you that within 12" you use his LD for all intensive purposes. Doesn't say only for this test or only for that. 12" Generals LD. Period. Chris and SiNNiX have it correct according to RAW. Now if the spell told you to use the units unmodified LD you would be correct. But it doesn't.

Within 12" of the General the units LD is whatever his is. Now does this lead to a sick combos...Hell yah! But not any sicker than others in the game....:shifty: Well, maybe.....WS7 S10 horde of zombies with ASF.....:wtf: Opps..forgot the re-rolls to hit too......

Thundergod
27-09-2010, 17:08
IP tells you that within 12" you use his LD for all intensive purposes...

Normally i wouldn't correct grammer/spelling on the interwebs, but i gotta say-
you use his LD "to all intents and purposes".

Now if you will excuse me, i have to get out my interwebs highlighter and highlight any words that thetruesloth might be looking for on warseer.

a18no
27-09-2010, 17:44
The point is right and we've been discussing it since a month now... can't find an answer though.

But, for general information:

Str8 = -5 armor, if you have 2+ save, you loose everything... how many can be at 1+ since hand weapon and shield now give ward and no bonus on armor
How many unit are T7 or better? Since wounding with S10 is better than 8 only on T7 or better... except the star dragon and the steam tank.. nothing.

So my conclusion: who care about Str8 or Str10.

After that, skink and harpies could be better, but I play them as Str6. Why? It's not the general that is wounding my ennemy, he is at 12" of there!

TheTrueSloth
27-09-2010, 17:53
Chris and SiNNiX have it correct according to RAW. Now if the spell told you to use the units unmodified LD you would be correct. But it doesn't.

God damn...

No less than three separate threads entailing the principle of how IP can work with a unit in RAW, two of them discussing Mind Razor and IP in detail (if with a little bit of unecessary ranting) and this kind of stuff still comes up. Yikes.

To summarise badly: IP changes the source of the unit's Ld from within their ranks to his own. OMR uses the Ld of the models in the unit. There's easy justification in RAW to state that IP doesn't affect individual Ld values. The logic you're using to justify IP working in the way you're saying it would actually invalidates various other rule effects, like Net of Amyntok.

I'm gonna try and search the last thread up for y'all so I don't have to cover so much of it.

Toodles

TheTrueSloth
27-09-2010, 17:55
Found it:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273515&highlight=inspiring+presence+okkams+mind+razor

EDIT:


The spell tells you to use "their own Ld", then the Inspiring Presence tells you to use the general's "instead of their own".

Yes, it tells all units in range to use his Ld instead of "their" own. More likely by the use of "their", its' "the unit's", not "the model's in the unit's". They are separate RAW mechanics and not covered in the rules for IP. Your current assertion of how IP works would invalidate spells like Net of Amyntok.

Toodles

Mid'ean
27-09-2010, 18:11
Thanks for finding that. Couldn't find it with the search function. The only thing I can agree with you on it is that is definitely needs to be FAQ'ed......;)

TheTrueSloth
27-09-2010, 18:17
The only thing I can agree with you on it is that is definitely needs to be FAQ'ed......;)

Yeah, I'd agree with that. There's definitely good reason to assume what people like SiNNiX has said is true, but I also feel there's good reason to assume the opposite :)

I just want to know who went through the previous thread highlighting in yellow and bold all the words like Inspiring Presence and Okkam's Mind Razor in that last thread... :/

Toodles

Aglemar
27-09-2010, 18:53
You highlighted those terms likely through searching for them.

If you look at your link you have attributes telling it to highlight those terms, removing them gives you the normal non highlighted look.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273515

TheTrueSloth
27-09-2010, 19:07
You highlighted those terms likely through searching for them.

If you look at your link you have attributes telling it to highlight those terms, removing them gives you the normal non highlighted look.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273515

Ah, foiled through my own technophobia :shifty:

Lol, cheers for the explanation, makes more sense now :)

Toodles

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 00:26
Toodles, I'll give you an A+ as always for your enthusiasm and love for this game, because it's made apparent in your meticulous philosophical translation of the rules. Also, as always, I respect your sincerity and kindness in your posts. You know, lack of capitalizing words to show emphasis and rolling your eyes (like I do!).

However... :(

I think you tend to look a little too into the wording of rules and the advanced grammatical insinuations rather than just, well, reading them as they are? The unit's Leadership becomes that of the general. Nowhere in the rulebook does anything say that IP is overridden because "models" and "units" and whatever are different. Every model in that unit takes on the Leadership of the general if in range of IP, thus gaining this benefit for spells and abilities.

Synnister
28-09-2010, 01:47
My biggest problem with Toodles argument is the assumption that units have attributes even though it is not stated in the rulebook. For that reason, you have to go with the general's LD if within 12" of him. As a matter of fact, IP is not even optional. So you always have to use his LD which to me seems silly.

brizzle_g
28-09-2010, 02:37
I also had a question about the lore of shadows. How does Pit of Shades and other spells work against a multi-part model such as the hydra? I have one friend that tests on the hydra's Initiative while another friend says that since it is one model now that you test on the handler's Initiative since it is the best value. Which way is correct?

Synnister
28-09-2010, 03:51
I also had a question about the lore of shadows. How does Pit of Shades and other spells work against a multi-part model such as the hydra? I have one friend that tests on the hydra's Initiative while another friend says that since it is one model now that you test on the handler's Initiative since it is the best value. Which way is correct?

That is still in the air. Some people believe that you use the Hydra's Initiative. Others believe that you use the handlers. There's good arguments for both sides, so, essentially talk it over with your gaming group and house rule it until it's FAQ'd.

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 04:03
I also had a question about the lore of shadows. How does Pit of Shades and other spells work against a multi-part model such as the hydra? I have one friend that tests on the hydra's Initiative while another friend says that since it is one model now that you test on the handler's Initiative since it is the best value. Which way is correct?

You use the hydras, or atleast that's the way I think most people play it.

Chris_
28-09-2010, 05:09
They are separate RAW mechanics and not covered in the rules for IP. Your current assertion of how IP works would invalidate spells like Net of Amyntok.

ToodlesAnd characteristic tests and leadership tests and the mindrazor are all different mechanics, what is your point? The rules for Ld in a unit vs. a model (which seems to be what your argument builds on) are not covered either, else can someone please tell me where to find this? (not including the part for "Leadership Tests" as that is only regarding specific tests and not in general)

crazyjake
28-09-2010, 08:37
OMR doesn't work with IP. I can't even see a really logical argument that says you can. The rules for IP state that the unit uses the general's leadership instead of their own. The unit's leadership never changes, it's just allowed to use the general's. So when the spell says a unit uses their leadership, it means that they are using their leadership.

Synnister
28-09-2010, 09:22
OMR doesn't work with IP. I can't even see a really logical argument that says you can. The rules for IP state that the unit uses the general's leadership instead of their own. The unit's leadership never changes, it's just allowed to use the general's. So when the spell says a unit uses their leadership, it means that they are using their leadership.

The problem arises in that the rulebook never tells us what a 'unit's leadership' is. It then references this term with no explanation as to what it is. In the IP rules it says units use his leadership. However, under the leadership test rule on pg 10 it says model's leadership. It also says sometimes units might be called upon to make a leadership test. Now to determine a unit's leadership if there are multiple leadership values you use the highest. How that interacts with the IP rule is the problem. Does it just override or does it change theirs? Also, given that IP doesn't specify only for leadership tests. It says they use his Leadership instead of their own. To me that says the models Leadership is replaced with the general's.

crazyjake
28-09-2010, 09:29
The problem arises in that the rulebook never tells us what a 'unit's leadership' is. It then references this term with no explanation as to what it is. In the IP rules it says units use his leadership. However, under the leadership test rule on pg 10 it says model's leadership. It also says sometimes units might be called upon to make a leadership test. Now to determine a unit's leadership if there are multiple leadership values you use the highest. How that interacts with the IP rule is the problem. Does it just override or does it change theirs? Also, given that IP doesn't specify only for leadership tests. It says they use his Leadership instead of their own. To me that says the models Leadership is replaced with the general's.

I wouldn't want to play with you sir.

Synnister
28-09-2010, 09:41
no reason to be hateful. Seems to me that it's the fairest interpretation for the top tier spell in that lore. Like I said previously there's arguments for both sides and that it needs to be house ruled until it's covered by the FAQ and if that stance makes it so you don't want to play against me I'm broken up about that. No, seriously I am. Apparently, if someone disagrees with you and wants to debate an unclear rule you don't want to play them, well with that attitude you'll not be playing very much.

crazyjake
28-09-2010, 10:30
I just hopped on because I felt bad about what I posted. I forgot to put my usual :D which means I'm trying to be playful. I don't mean I really wouldn't want to play with you. Sorry if I came across as a jerk.

eyescrossed
28-09-2010, 11:55
Even with the ":D" it seems a bit harsh :shifty:

As for the actual topic, I'll be discussing it with my friends very soon.

Ethos
28-09-2010, 12:20
Hahahaha!!!


They called you Toodles!!:D:evilgrin::D:evilgrin:


I completely was waiting for you to respond to this thread. I'm so glad the first post on the second page was you. It was like turning the corner, only arriving just in time to see your favorite bully getting beat up. Ah... what a welcoming surprise.


I don't have my book with me --- what is Net of Amyntok?

eyescrossed
28-09-2010, 12:24
An epic Lore of Light spell.

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 12:37
So when the spell says a unit uses their leadership, it means that they are using their leadership.

And their Leadership is the general's Leadership. It's really not a hard concept, nor are the written rules difficult to decipher.

TheTrueSloth
28-09-2010, 12:59
Hahahaha!!!


They called you Toodles!!

Indeed! Apparently TrueSloth was not good enough, so it came down to TTS or Toodles, I nominated Toodles :D


I completely was waiting for you to respond to this thread. I'm so glad the first post on the second page was you. It was like turning the corner, only arriving just in time to see your favorite bully getting beat up. Ah... what a welcoming surprise.

LOL, oh dear me, I knew I was probably somewhat predictable but...damn ;)


I don't have my book with me --- what is Net of Amyntok?

Lore of Light Spell, the unit has to take a Strength test to perform most actions or else they cannot do them. 'Tis awesome.

I have a response on the way those nay-sayers in this thread ;), but unfortunately my PC decided the net would drop out on me and force me to re-type it. Coincidence? Probably more of a sign I should stop I know, but give me a few minutes and I should have responded to everyone :).

*cue jaws music*

Toodles

Mid'ean
28-09-2010, 13:13
See Toodles...Your computer is trying to tell you something.....:angel:

TheTrueSloth
28-09-2010, 13:25
I think you tend to look a little too into the wording of rules and the advanced grammatical insinuations rather than just, well, reading them as they are? The unit's Leadership becomes that of the general. Nowhere in the rulebook does anything say that IP is overridden because "models" and "units" and whatever are different. Every model in that unit takes on the Leadership of the general if in range of IP, thus gaining this benefit for spells and abilities.

Lol, thanks for the A+ :)

It is possible I have read too much into the rules, I agree with you. The problem is its' also possible that I might be on the money.

You're absolutely right, the RBRB doesn't state what you stated, that "IP is overridden because 'models' and 'units' and whatever are different", just like the RBRB doesn't state "Treat all instances of 'Unit performing 'X' as 'all models in the unit perform X'.

What the rules do show us is that a unit's Leadership value is determined by using the highest value in the unit, if the general is not within 12". The rules also show us there is a specific RAW mechanic difference between a "unit" using a determined value and the "models in the unit" using a determined value. Net of Amyntok and The Dwellers below being the best example.

================

@Synnister:


My biggest problem with Toodles argument is the assumption that units have attributes even though it is not stated in the rulebook. For that reason, you have to go with the general's LD if within 12" of him. As a matter of fact, IP is not even optional. So you always have to use his LD which to me seems silly.

Ah, but I never tried to state that units have attributes simply because they are units, but that units have attributes they can refer to when certain attributes are called upon. Such as "the unit's movement value" (stated on page 13 and page 19).

================

@Chris_:


And characteristic tests and leadership tests and the mindrazor are all different mechanics,

You're absolutely right.


The rules for Ld in a unit vs. a model (which seems to be what your argument builds on) are not covered either, else can someone please tell me where to find this? (not including the part for "Leadership Tests" as that is only regarding specific tests and not in general)

Actually they are covered if you read the RBRB in its' entirety, it becomes pretty clear the two can and often are different.

Take for example, a unit of Ogre Bulls (Ld 7) led by a Bruiser (Ld8, ignore IP for now). If I asked you what Ld value the unit is, I imagine you would reply "8, because the highest Leadership in the unit is 8". If I asked you what Leadership the models in the unit are, you would have to respond "7 and 8, because there is no rule that tells us that we automatically treat the Leadership value of all models in the unit to match that the unit would use as its' Leadership source", though I imagine you would condense it down a lot more than that. Now if I told you I was going to target your unit champion with a model specific targeting attack that worked against the model's Leadership, you would have to by RAW state that the model's Ld is 7, not 8.

As I stated before, the logic you have to use with the simpler reading about a "unit's leadership" would mix up and invalidate spells like Net of Amyntok and the Dwellers below, which is covered in the linked thread on page 2.

================

@Synnister again:


The problem arises in that the rulebook never tells us what a 'unit's leadership' is

No, but it does tell us that units have to use a Leadership value and p10 tells us how we determine what value we use while p107 simply tells us that the new value to use comes from the general if he is within 12" rather than specifically being in the rank and file.


In the IP rules it says units use his leadership. However, under the leadership test rule on pg 10 it says model's leadership.

Are you trying to insinuate that the general isn't a model? :eyebrows:. Page 11 also tells us that in the case of a model having a special rule (or an advanced rule), it will trump any potential contradiction in the RBRB. The General is a model on the board in the game. You use his Ld, not the Ld value generated by a model in the unit.


Now to determine a unit's leadership if there are multiple leadership values you use the highest. How that interacts with the IP rule is the problem. Does it just override or does it change theirs?

Again, the restriction that the unit's Ld value must be determined from a model in the unit is trumped by the General being within 12". It does not override theirs nor does it replaces theirs. It simply bypasses the source of Ld the unit would use from within their ranks to him.


Also, given that IP doesn't specify only for leadership tests. It says they use his Leadership instead of their own. To me that says the models Leadership is replaced with the general's.

You're also assuming that "instead" and "replace" mean the same thing. While they are similar in context, they do not specifically mean the same thing.

================

Right, that's it for now, I'm going to grab a cup of tea :)

EDIT: At Mid'ean - I think you might be right :)

Toodles

a18no
28-09-2010, 15:52
Taking the RAW exactly word for word, I think inspiring presence will give the ld of the general to any unit at 12" of him. Affecting the mind razor strengh.

But, if you read carefully the inspiring presence rule, you'll find that the rule is no longer a choice, you have to use the general's ld. Making some thing to add to the discussion:

Yes mindrazor will be stronger IF the general got a better ld. Let's talked about a giant with a goblin general... he is now at 5-6 of ld, stubborn but still at lower ld.... If I use fatalitas on you general, if you play mindrazor on any unit within 12" of him, i'm actually applying the penalty on your spell too....

Now, some will say that you use the best characteristic available. Yes, when their's many different in the same unit. But let say that you got a unit of warriors at ld8, a hero at ld9 and a Lord out of the unit with a fatalitas on, with ld7. The hero AND the warrior must use his ld, so are all at ld7, meaning Str7 for mindrazor and for break test.... purple sun is no longer the best spell in death lore!

Think about that guys

Chris_
28-09-2010, 23:12
Actually they are covered if you read the RBRB in its' entirety, it becomes pretty clear the two can and often are different.Well, I do agree that there are references to a "model's" Ld and then to a "unit's" Ld. These seem to be different, but it is all jumbled up, especially on pg. 10 (BRB) where they talk about Leadership Tests. (for example they refer to a "model" taking a Ld test but then this might lead to the "unit" fleeing)
I can see what your point is but no where is it spelled out that there are different mechanics even if the rules seem to be ambiguous and could be interpreted either way.


Take for example, a unit of Ogre Bulls (Ld 7) led by a Bruiser (Ld8, ignore IP for now). If I asked you what Ld value the unit is, I imagine you would reply "8, because the highest Leadership in the unit is 8".No, this is wrong. The unit (in the absence of IP) has no special combined Ld value according to the rules. They do however take "Leadership Tests" on the highest value Ld in the unit, which would be 8. You seem to be confusing it even more by adding the mechanics for Ld-tests somehow where they don't belong.


If I asked you what Leadership the models in the unit are, you would have to respond "7 and 8, because there is no rule that tells us that we automatically treat the Leadership value of all models in the unit to match that the unit would use as its' Leadership source", though I imagine you would condense it down a lot more than that. Now if I told you I was going to target your unit champion with a model specific targeting attack that worked against the model's Leadership, you would have to by RAW state that the model's Ld is 7, not 8.The unit is not Ld 8, which I said earlier. But I agree you can not use the Bruiser's Ld if he is not the same time the general. So the champ would have Ld 7.


As I stated before, the logic you have to use with the simpler reading about a "unit's leadership" would mix up and invalidate spells like Net of Amyntok and the Dwellers below, which is covered in the linked thread on page 2.No, they would not as there is a HUGE difference between "Characterstic Tests" and the Ld value of model/unit or "Leadership Tests".

The rules forum is awesome :) Best discussions on the forum, hands down.

SiNNiX
29-09-2010, 02:21
The rules forum is awesome :) Best discussions on the forum, hands down.

True that. That's why you haven't seen me in Tactics or General in the past month or so. :)

Synnister
29-09-2010, 03:06
@Synnister again:

Are you trying to insinuate that the general isn't a model? :eyebrows:. Page 11 also tells us that in the case of a model having a special rule (or an advanced rule), it will trump any potential contradiction in the RBRB. The General is a model on the board in the game. You use his Ld, not the Ld value generated by a model in the unit.



No. What I'm saying is that the rule for IP says units within 12" use his instead of theirs. However, when you look at LD tests on pg 10 it says models there. There is a conflict in the language between the 2 rules. Even in the sentence that tells you how to determine the LD of the unit if there is multiple LD values present in the unit it uses the term model. Since the unit's leadership value is determined by the models present then you have to assume that the General's LD overwrites the leadership values of the models in the unit.