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Da Crusha
27-09-2010, 00:45
I was wondering what happens if a shadow wizard wants to use smoke and mirrors to switch places with a fleeing character? will the shadow wizard immediately start fleeing? would the character immediately rally? would the switch be illegal?

Lord Inquisitor
27-09-2010, 00:49
I would assume the fleeing character is still fleeing and the wizard is not... they just change places.

A more interesting problem is if either is in a unit ... what happens when a fleeing wizard joins a nonfleeing unit via the spell or vice versa?

Makrar
27-09-2010, 00:53
As i think this is not covered in the rules, I would just play it that you cant swap places with such a character. Otherwise weird stuff happens :wtf:

theunwantedbeing
27-09-2010, 01:28
They switch places and life carries on as did before for them, but they are now in a new location.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 02:32
My friend used this strategy a couple weeks ago and it caused a HUGE argument at the store... eventually, people paused their battles to put their 2 cents in and I was basically in the middle of it trying to calm everybody down. We eventually decided that it's legal but there are definitely a handful of people unhappy with my decision. I just can't find anything in the rulebook or FAQs that would suggest otherwise.

It's also important to note that characters who are no longer fleeing due to Smoke and Mirrors may not shoot in the Shooting Phase, as they technically rallied this turn. That's the way we ruled it, anyway. Makes sense.

Lord Inquisitor
27-09-2010, 04:02
Why would a character moved by smoke and mirrors cease to be fleeing? Are we talking about when a fleeing character suddenly joins a nonfleeing unit?

Skjoldr
27-09-2010, 04:37
I have to say, the whole "Oh, i'm not running for my life anymore" concept seems kind of ridiculous. I'd say you simply can't target fleeing characters.

WusteGeist
27-09-2010, 07:04
Lets get the exact detials of what happened. Was it a fleeing character by him or herself or was it a character in a unit that was fleeing? Did some one try to say the fleeing model was suddenly not fleeing? OR even more tricky, was some one saying that the fleeing character in a fleeing unit once swapped with a none fleeing model no longer counting as fleeing as they reckon it was the unit fleeing and not the actual character? Give me some meat to chew on and I can answer your question. Gristle alone is no meal.

mishari26
27-09-2010, 07:23
I think the fleeing character continues to flee "out of" the non-fleeing unit he suddenly found himself in the middle of.

also the non-fleeing shadow wizzy stops where he is while his fleeing unit runs off without him. (although I'm inclined to say he should suddenly panic and start fleeing with them!)

solves alot of problems this way.

WusteGeist
27-09-2010, 07:30
I think the fleeing character continues to flee "out of" the non-fleeing unit he suddenly found himself in the middle of.

also the non-fleeing shadow wizzy stops where he is while his fleeing unit runs off without him. (although I'm inclined to say he should suddenly panic and start fleeing with them!)

solves alot of problems this way.

I am tempted to say that a none fleeing character who is suddenly in a fleeing unit counts as fleeing despite his none fleeing stance. Think of it this way, if you do not rule it that way, you allow for a base line argument of the fleeing wizard suddenly counts as not feeling once out of fleeing unit. Need to ensure that such a argument has no basis on which to stand let alone begin.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 07:59
Why would a character moved by smoke and mirrors cease to be fleeing? Are we talking about when a fleeing character suddenly joins a nonfleeing unit?

Yes. The only hindrance I could think of would be if a wizard that was unable to flee (Lord of Change, for example) used Smoke and Mirrors to switch places with a fleeing friendly character. I wouldn't think that possible considering the wizard wouldn't be able to flee thus making the switch impossible.

It's not clear in the rules, so this is definitely a tricky one. I would say that if a wizard who is not fleeing used Smoke and Mirrors to switch places with a character who is fleeing, the wizard would go into the fleeing unit and join in flight, while the character who was fleeing, but is now wherever the wizard was previously, ceases to flee.

But this is definitely something that could be debated. Not sure if it could be debated rules-wise, but it could be debated RAI-wise. I scoured the rulebook just to be sure, and I couldn't find anything saying "the only way a unit can stop fleeing is if it passes a Rally Test," which would make the switch impossible as only passed Rally Tests, and spells or abilities that specifically rally a fleeing unit, would qualify.

I can't say for sure that I know the answer to this one... :confused:

Edit: Also found another dilemma: what about units that are under 25% and "may never rally"? This is a tricky one.

WusteGeist
27-09-2010, 08:15
Yes. The only hindrance I could think of would be if a wizard that was unable to flee (Lord of Change, for example) used Smoke and Mirrors to switch places with a fleeing friendly character. I wouldn't think that possible considering the wizard wouldn't be able to flee thus making the switch impossible.

It's not clear in the rules, so this is definitely a tricky one. I would say that if a wizard who is not fleeing used Smoke and Mirrors to switch places with a character who is fleeing, the wizard would go into the fleeing unit and join in flight, while the character who was fleeing, but is now wherever the wizard was previously, ceases to flee.

But this is definitely something that could be debated. Not sure if it could be debated rules-wise, but it could be debated RAI-wise. I scoured the rulebook just to be sure, and I couldn't find anything saying "the only way a unit can stop fleeing is if it passes a Rally Test," which would make the switch impossible as only passed Rally Tests, and spells or abilities that specifically rally a fleeing unit, would qualify.

I can't say for sure that I know the answer to this one... :confused:

Edit: Also found another dilemma: what about units that are under 25% and "may never rally"? This is a tricky one.
The part underlined is the part that I really really think we should not allow. As to the under 25% not allowed to rally thats no longer true, units under 25% may rally on a roll of double 1's.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 08:20
units under 25% may rally on a roll of double 1's.

Oh wow, completely forgot that rule for a second there... thanks for reminding me, haha!

Chris_
27-09-2010, 09:58
Well, the normal rules for character joining units do not apply for this as then the character wouldn't be able to join units in CC and so on. I would say (not basing this on any rules but what I think seems most reasonable right now) you can swap places and that the non-fleeing character that goes in to a fleeing unit joins in the flight and the one originally fleeing would still be fleeing if he didn't end up in a non-fleeing unit.

mishari26
27-09-2010, 10:32
well sorry I changed my mind ;P

p.101 states that a character may not leave a fleeing unit.

so that's clear cut. meaning that the shadow wizzy has to continue running with the fleeing unit. he's not allowed to leave it. and there's no reason to say it stops fleeing because it's newly added a wizard to it's numbers.

as for the other swapped character. since the "fleeing" state applies to the original unit as a whole. I don't see why not just have him stand still if he becomes alone, or with the new non-fleeing unit. so the idea that the 2nd character is also "fleeing" is not necessarily true either.

and RAI it can work nicely too, as the character suddenly finds himself among some calm and steady troops, he can also calm down.

fubukii
27-09-2010, 10:50
what if the fleeing character is by himself, and switches places with a wizard in a unit?


i would assume both characters would not be fleeing any longer

Chris_
27-09-2010, 10:55
well sorry I changed my mind ;P

p.101 states that a character may not leave a fleeing unit.
I don't think you can actually apply the normal rules for joining/leaving units as then a wizard can not swap if he/the other character is in CC, fleeing, spell effect and so on. And I don't see the reasoning for a character that is fleeing suddenly stops fleeing because he's on his own. The only thing happening is that they swap places, they don't swap state of minds...

mishari26
27-09-2010, 11:44
I don't think you can actually apply the normal rules for joining/leaving units as then a wizard can not swap if he/the other character is in CC, fleeing, spell effect and so on. And I don't see the reasoning for a character that is fleeing suddenly stops fleeing because he's on his own. The only thing happening is that they swap places, they don't swap state of minds...

yes the spell is a special case in this case. but it only affects the "joining" into the unit.

however, once the shadow wiz is there.. the spell's special rules are not in effect anymore. so the rules which forbid him from "leaving" the unit should still apply. nothing contradicting them. only doubt was the wizard's "non-fleeing state of mind". being all composed and non-fleeing, does it stop him from fleeing with the cowardly unit? as we see in p.101, he's not allowed to leave. so that pretty much settles it for me.

but my point now which I come to realize as this thread progressed, is:
- should the "fleeing" state be applied to all models in the unit? or just the unit itself?

since the BRB tried to make sure that fleeing units don't have a chance to "disassemble", they've been able to avoid this question, til now with this "swapping" spell.

If we say only the "unit" is fleeing. not each model in it. then:
- the character swapped out doesn't have to run anywhere. he's out of the "fleeing unit". probably thinking "what a bunch of cowards!"

if we say all the models inside are "fleeing", not just the unit. then:
- if the character ends up alone, he should keep on fleeing, and if he ends up inside a calm and composed unit, then we face another question, should:
1- the character becomes calm too.
2- the character "flees out of" the unit.
3- the distraught character insights panic among the unit and they all start fleeing.?

I think from the apparent confusion I like the former interpretation where the "fleeing" state applies only the "fleeing unit". since it's also simpler. and it's also not too broken since you still lose the shadow wiz who's now fleeing. gain one, lose one.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 14:37
I also prefer the method where the fleeing character stops fleeing when switched out, as the combined unit itself is what's fleeing. The wizard who jumps into the fleeing unit flees with them because there's nothing in the rules that say a non-fleeing character who joins a fleeing unit (for whatever reason) rallies that unit.

Lungboy
27-09-2010, 14:40
If a character can't leave a fleeing unit, then surely the wizard can't jump into a fleeing unit as the original character would have to leave it.

gunsmoke
27-09-2010, 14:48
The way I see it, is that a model can not join or leave a fleeing unit.

If you consider a single model as a stand alone unit, then the wizard can not join that unit, so the spell should not be able to be targeted at that model. Furthermore, the fleeing model still counts as fleeing, so it can't join another unit, therefore targeting that model with smoke and mirrors should not be allowed.

mishari26
27-09-2010, 16:05
however,

Basic Rules << Advanced Rules << Spells, right?

so if the spell effect causes characters to swap places, it doesn't exempt fleeing units. so it shouldn't be exempted.

Makrar
27-09-2010, 16:06
far far simpler to just ban it! :D

Lord Inquisitor
27-09-2010, 16:23
Another problem is Unbreakable characters and/or Unbreakable units, and characters that are explicitly stated to be disallowed from joining or leaving a certain unit, etc. I've actually run up on this one - a Herald of Tzeentch using Life can swap places with another mounted character, but the only other mounted character is a Slaanesh herald on a steed, who is in a unit of Steeds of Slaanesh, who the Tzeentch herald is forbidden from joining (a) because he's flying* and (b) because his specific rules say he can't.

I would say the most reasonable house rule for this one is as follows: If swapping places due to the Shadow Lore Attribute would cause either character to join a unit they would not be allowed to were it the remaining moves phase, then the swap simply does not happen.

An alternative could be "If swapping places due to the Shadow Lore Attribute would cause either character to join a unit they would not be allowed to were it the remaining moves phase, then place the character as close as possible to the original position, 1" from the unit."

Either seems a reasonable resolution, but the former is more conservative so if you're playing Life, I would assume this.

*Is this even true anymore?

Darktan
27-09-2010, 17:15
what would happen, if a shadow wizard was in a unit, that was in combat, then switches out with a fleeing character? would the character rally so he could fight?

theunwantedbeing
27-09-2010, 17:54
what would happen, if a shadow wizard was in a unit, that was in combat, then switches out with a fleeing character? would the character rally so he could fight?

No, why would he?

AlphariusOmegon20
28-09-2010, 16:52
well sorry I changed my mind ;P

p.101 states that a character may not leave a fleeing unit.

so that's clear cut. meaning that the shadow wizzy has to continue running with the fleeing unit. he's not allowed to leave it. and there's no reason to say it stops fleeing because it's newly added a wizard to it's numbers.

as for the other swapped character. since the "fleeing" state applies to the original unit as a whole. I don't see why not just have him stand still if he becomes alone, or with the new non-fleeing unit. so the idea that the 2nd character is also "fleeing" is not necessarily true either.

and RAI it can work nicely too, as the character suddenly finds himself among some calm and steady troops, he can also calm down.

Actually I read that as they can't switch, due to the fleeing character not being able to leave the fleeing unit.

mishari26
28-09-2010, 21:18
Actually I read that as they can't switch, due to the fleeing character not being able to leave the fleeing unit.

but wouldn't you say a spell overrules a basic rule?

a18no
28-09-2010, 21:28
but wouldn't you say a spell overrules a basic rule?

But the spell can't stopped the character from fleeing.

- A character in a fleeing unit can't leave it
- A character that is fleeing on is own can't join a unit


So a lone wizard that change place with a lone fleeing character will only give him another place to flee from.

A wizard in a unit can't swap with a fleeing character.

Simple, effective, cover everything. Why searching so much trouble?? I can't understand all of this topic..

Synnister
29-09-2010, 01:53
Clearly this matter isn't covered in the rules so essentially anything discussed here would be a house rule. As for swapping with a fleeing character, I can't see how you'd get around the not being able to leave a unit while fleeing rule nor the joining a fleeing unit. Well for the matter how do you get around the unit in CC restriction on joining a unit.

Is it even joining a unit? Man I don't know really. Stupidly written rules. Damn you Mat Ward!!

Lord Inquisitor
29-09-2010, 04:38
I think it's pretty obvious that smoke and mirrors can't be used to make an illegal unit (herald with wrong god unit, regular character with unbreakable unit, fleeing character/unit, special rules etc) then the spell can't do it. The simplest solution it to just say that the characters can't switch places just like you can't switch with another unit type.

Synnister
29-09-2010, 05:06
But what about units in CC? You can't join/leave a unit if its in combat. So, is that rule forbidden too? The more and more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that Smoke and Mirrors is kinda useless. That's just my gut instinct on that.

Da Crusha
29-09-2010, 07:14
I think the main intent of the effect is to be able to swap places out of combat.

T10
29-09-2010, 07:45
I think the main intent of the effect is to be able to swap places.

Of course, it is obvious that they (the designers) make no effort to deal the kind of odd-ball stuff that follows if you start putting fleeing characters in non-fleeing units and so on.

I'd like to point out that making use of the "smoke and mirrors" effect is entirely optional. If you find that swapping places with a particular character results in a "now what?" situation, you can avoid the issue indefinitely by not swapping places.

-T10

Lord Inquisitor
29-09-2010, 15:25
But what about units in CC? You can't join/leave a unit if its in combat. So, is that rule forbidden too? The more and more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that Smoke and Mirrors is kinda useless. That's just my gut instinct on that.

I think it should be allowed in combat. Yeah, it's subjective. I'm trying to come up with a definition that permits it ... I mean fleeing character + nonfleeing unit isn't legal. Character + unit they're not allowed to join (e.g. war machine or special rule) is also not legal. Character + unit in combat is legal, even if they're not allowed to join the unit, they would be allowed to be with the unit. I realise this is a very fuzzy interpretation, but I think it matches the intent of the rule the best.